Roller camshaft wear

[jstwkd]

Hey Guys I pulled off my tunnel ram last week looking for a vac. leak (running very lean).Anyway I found wear on my cam shaft were the roller rides.Grooves on one side of the lobe.You can actually feel the lip with your finger nail.Its a comp. cams hyd. Roller (gen 6)It happened on 4 diff. lobes.CP is replacing it but now one has a answer to what happened.would appreciate any help thanks.

[Dave F]

Let me start by asking what oil were you using?
DAVE

[jstwkd]

First I used Kendall 10-30 gt1 / lost three pistons to a lean mixture.After rebiuld I ran vavoline cyn.for and Hour then back to kendall gt1

[HM]

I have been running a crane roller cam with crane roller hydraulic lifters in my 350 chevy. I had a roller lifter fall apart and drop into the cam and seize the motor. When I tore the motor down, I found several other lifters that were about to fail (had cracks) and my cam had a groove in it like jstwkd described. I wrote it off as a bad batch of lifters after I sent them to Crane and they replaced them for free, including my cam.
I was describing my engine failure to the guys at Pick's Racing Engines in Santa Ana, and they had an interesting take on roller lifters - for highperformance boat applications (not race), they did not like to use roller lifters because of how much idling boats do. They said idling is the hardest thing on roller lifters and cause grooving and other failers in lifters. They told me to get better life from my roller setup, that I should avoid being under 2000 RPM as much as possible.
They said that there were motors that never had a problem, but with the extreme growth of roller cams and roller lifters making their way into recreational applications, the failure rate is atleast 10 times higher than in race applications, they think it is more like a 100 times higher. They also said that racers seldom put more than one season on roller lifters, where recreational users tend to only replace things that are broke.
Also, there is only one company that makes roller lifters for all the cam companies - there used to be 3, but 2 stopped making them due to high failure rates in non-race applications, and people wanting their money back.

[Dave F]

In my opinion, 10w 30 is not a good oil to use unless you boat in cold wheather.
Use a straight weight 30 or, a 40 for higher temps if you want to stay with petroleum.
If you want to use synthetic I suggest either Mobil 1 15/50 or Royal Purple 15/40.
It's hard to sit here and say what went wrong with your engine without looking at it. But, I think your oil is a good place to start.
A multitude of things could be the culprit. From broken or inaccurate valve spring settings to defective/bad bearings inside the roller.
DAVE

[jstwkd]

I was under the impression I couldnt or shouldnt use anything higher than staight 30 weight in a 86 or newer motor.I did use staight 30 gt1 and lost three pistons.than went to the snythetic vavoline. and on the last oil change I went gt1 10/30.I ve only got maybe 12 hours and 1 rebiuld (for the three pistons) bewteen oil changes.

[HammerDown]

jstwkd:
I was under the impression I couldnt or shouldnt use anything higher than staight 30 weight in a 86 or newer motor.I did use staight 30 gt1 and lost three pistons.than went to the snythetic vavoline. and on the last oil change I went gt1 10/30.I ve only got maybe 12 hours and 1 rebiuld (for the three pistons) bewteen oil changes.I was under the impression you lost 3 pistons from a vacume leak...runing a few cylinders lean.
So are you, or could you blame the 30wt on that?
Dont know how I would feel about the comment "They said idling is the hardest thing on roller lifters and cause grooving and other failers in lifters."
There sure are alot of motor's (diesels) that spend all night, night after night idleing and there getting over + 500,000 miles on those roller tappets.
Just wondering if the cam may have been a little soft? And for the oil weight...I've been under the impression 40 wt. is the way to go...however this season I've been using Kendalls GT 20/50. The 10/30 seems a little on the thin side for something as stressed as a marine engine.
It would seem that a roller cam has many advantages over a flat tappet cam for (preformance) reasons...but one small speck of debre could stop a roller from spinning and...well you know the rest.
Personally I'd be surprised if the 30 wt caused the issue...now add in a vacume leak, leaning out a few cylinders,pistons are getting real hot, and then a piston skirts start to gaul, and presto...there's your debre that could cause a roller to fail.
There are many possibilties...I'm thinking a soft cam...debre stopping a roller from spining, showing grouves on the lobes...and the 10w30 is a no no.

[jstwkd]

I personally feel that I lost pistons due to a lean mixture.I havnet been able to find a vaccume leak or anything saying I had one except that Im running a 950 hp With huge jetts and plugs read white.Headers still have almost no idication of fuel inside of them.I actually pretty lost I talked to a guy up here who wants to see my set up.

[Hotcrusader76]

jstwkd:
I personally feel that I lost pistons due to a lean mixture.I havnet been able to find a vaccume leak or anything saying I had one except that Im running a 950 hp With huge jetts and plugs read white.Headers still have almost no idication of fuel inside of them.I actually pretty lost I talked to a guy up here who wants to see my set up.send me pics of this piston heads and combustion chambers.....also the HP carbs should be stamped on the sides of their bodies on this little square mount on the side
[ September 04, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

[Dave F]

The loss of pistons most likely had nothing to do with oil. That is most likely a fuel problem or a mechanical failure of piston, ring or valve material.
Oil is the "life blood" of your engine.
The important thing is Temp. First and foremost.
Temp should be between 220 - 250.
I personally recommend (for petroleum based) a straight 30 for most climates. I wouldn't be against straight 40 in places like So. Cal., S. Fla and places that boat all year round. The plane truth is that straight 30 can and will give you as much protection as you need.
In cold climates for early and late season running I suggest a 10/30.
I personally use synthetic. I, just yesterday infact, had a discussion with the head engineer at Royal Purple. I have personally seen the effects of RP over petroleum.
One of the questions I asked him yesterday was about roller lifters "dragging" over the cam instead of rolling over. He told me in all the research that they have conducted, he's not seen any indication of that problem.
Anyway, getting back to your real problem.
Do you think it is possible that you got debris throughout the engine when loosing the 3 pistons.
It sounds very possible to me.
Just throwing out some possibilities
DAVE

[jstwkd]

I dont have any photos right now,The heads are edelbrock 6045 semi open chamber heads.2.19/1.88 110 chamber size/The pistons are JE flat top stock gen 6 502.And I dont have any numbers for the carb on me.What are you thinking?

[jstwkd]

Dave sounds very possible we did not find any large debri.Just your normal fine material at the bottom of pan from a new motor.Actually now that I think about it I think one of my valve giude retainer clips must have made it pretty far thru the system but I still dont think it could of made one more than one lobe.Cp is having a hard time finding me a new set of lifters.Im thinking of running the stock gen 6 rollers.Thanks for the help.

[MikeF]

J, I might add a few more things to look at and am needing a little more info to try to help troubleshoot.
Is that one carb on the TR?
Was there fuel flowing out of both primary boosters when rev'd anywhere above idle? Maybe a fuel feed problem?
Which 3 pistons did you loose (ex. 1,2,8)?, and where is the damage (what does it look like)?
Mike

[jstwkd]

Ya, One carb tuneel ram.I just ordered a new dual top.I lost 3-5-7 pistons.Lots of scoring on the skirts and worse on the radius near the piston pin.The machinest said it was a water prob.But I couldnt find anything to support that.All I know is it is extrely lean.Now I have 1 cyl.at 120 psi and 7 at 150 psi.But I want to find the prob. before I tear it back down.The boat is hitting 76 on gps but pinging like crazy.Adjusting timing doesnt make any diff.I havnt checked to see if I have fuel in both ends of carb.

[058]

Hammerdown, Comparing diesels and gas engines is comparing apples to oranges, diesels do not run high valve spring pressure like a H.P. gas engine, the diesel rollers are 3 to 4 times the size of a gas engine rollers and the diesel cams are ahellofalot bigger than a gas engine cam. It has been common knowledge for years solid roller cams should not be run in engines that are subject to low rpms and if you have to deal with 5 mph/no wake zones, pull skiiers and/or like to just cruise around you should run a hyd. roller [no lash-less spring pressure] flat tappet or hyd. cam. Leave the solid rollers to the race guys or plan on doing tear downs often to check your cam/rollers.

[HM]

058,
thanks for additional clarity - I did not know how to respond to the diesel application as that is completely different application and the roller tappets are probably made for severe service duty, and not high performance.
The guys at Pick's said even the roller-hydraulics are having trouble with idling, and it had more to do with the shockwave under 2000 RPM.
I have a correction about the roller lifter mfgr's I talked about above - There is only one company still making the hydraulic rollers, while all three still make solid rollers. But, the guys still making the hydraulic rollers may be the ones that actually last. The other two companies had too many complaints of failures in non-race applications and decided to just stop making them. Again, I am not talking about Comp, Crane and etc. but the guys who make them for them.
Another interesting fact is that most NASCAR and Winston Cup cars run solid tappets, turns out the rollers don't usually make it to the end of the race, and they are on the other end of the RPM range.

[MikeF]

J, Check to make sure water is getting into the left side of the block. I had this problem in my boat last year. One on the AN fittings corroded and blocked off the water to the right side of my engine. I was lucky enough to catch it before any damage occurred. Mike

[FLYTE RISK]

058 If anyone knows about diesels your the man..Holy moly I dont agree with that motor shop first off most all the new engines ford or chevy are hyd. rollers.. G.M and FORD have done extensive research on the longevity of that roller in automotive use... they idle alot more than a boat...Cant understand that rational.. JUST MY 2 CENTS, MAYBE I SHOULD PAY eek! eek! wink YOU LOL LOL

[FLYTE RISK]

Almost forgot, I would not buy another product from comp. cams again. :mad: :mad: I broke a pushrod which took out a lifter it took 3 weeks after the run around to get the parts than they were wrong :mad: phoned them and got alot of attitudes from 4 different people, arrogant attitudes at that.. just my opinion.... :mad:

[058]

Hey Flyte, Just another comment on roller cams, The factory hyd. rollers are not using the cam profiles that a solid roller cam would normally use: read low lift, slower opening/closing rates, much less spring pressure and constant preloaded contact with the cam lobe. The lobe isn't beating the shit out of the roller at low rpms from normal lash or the cam lobe trying to scrub off the face of the roller by fast ramps. Sorry about your experence with Comp, they have always served me well. Have fun at B-field and be safe. Wish I could be there to see your boat run.

[Fired Up]

Could the valve lash be set too tight? What should both hot and cold adjustments be on a roller?

[JEThro]

Travis,How was the Honeymoon? To bad you couldn't make it to Tower Park. I know exactly what the problem is with your motors. Its so simple I don't think anyone will believe it. IT'S THE GOD DAMN BOAT!!! I think it is possesed. Isn't that the same boat that I got that 455 out of? First,cam problems and then a bad cylender? You build a BBC and have piston then cam problems? Hmm... Anyways,go to the Banderlog board and check out some pics of what you missed. I'm off next week if you want to hook up. Jethro eek!

[058]

Fired Up:
Could the valve lash be set too tight? What should both hot and cold adjustments be on a roller?Use the manufacture's specs. I wouldn't play around with lash on a roller like you can with a flat tappet cam.

[058]

jstwkd:
Hey Guys I pulled off my tunnel ram last week looking for a vac. leak (running very lean).Anyway I found wear on my cam shaft were the roller rides.Grooves on one side of the lobe.You can actually feel the lip with your finger nail.Its a comp. cams hyd. Roller (gen 6)It happened on 4 diff. lobes.CP is replacing it but now one has a answer to what happened.would appreciate any help thanks.I missed it where you said the "one side only" If that be the case then I would have the lifter bores checked to see if they are not square with the cam, sounds like they may be off a degree ot two.

[Fired Up]

I may have just learned something here. I don't know alot, so thats not new. Isn't there supposed to be a gap, i'll call it, of 20 or 30 thousandths between the valve stem and the roller on the rocker? Are roller rockers adjusted to zero with no clearance to allow for heat expansion of the metal?

[FoMoCo]

I am runnin A mild Street comp Cams 280ar solid roller in My BBF 429, I was told( by a Good Machina shop) as long as your not using oil restictors, its ok to idle a solid roller motor. I am also runnin .018 lash with no problems with cam ware. its been in the motor over a year. But maybe the ware problem is just a CHevy issue.LOL!!!!!!

[Unchained]

When I had my engine short block assembled by "More Power" in Sparta, Mi. they had a tool that put a small score/notch in the bore that the roller lifter runs in. The idea was that oil would run down the bore along side the lifter and oil the roller when idling. I guess it worked, I have a pretty hairy cam ( .730 lift ) and have run the same Lunati lifters for three seasons now.
Mark

[HM]

FLYTE RISK:
058 If anyone knows about diesels your the man..Holy moly I dont agree with that motor shop first off most all the new engines ford or chevy are hyd. rollers.. G.M and FORD have done extensive research on the longevity of that roller in automotive use... they idle alot more than a boat...Cant understand that rational.. JUST MY 2 CENTS, MAYBE I SHOULD PAY eek! eek! wink YOU LOL LOLFlyte, you are right, but there is a problem. Chevy, Ford, Chrysler, and anyone else is having a hell of a time getting hydraulic rollers right now. The ones still being made are likely the ones that made it into OEM and are the ones that last. There is obviously a problem when 2 of the 3 mfg's stop making them, or an obvious problem with the way those 2 mfg's made them.
OEM failures are much lower than the after market buyers, like myself, who needed more speed. I bought the most aggresive cam-lifter package, and am now being told by Crane that they will no longer offer some of the high HP cams in the Roller Hydraulic line - they pushed the envelope too far, and probably went to the lifter mfg'er with the lowest bid. When mine orginally failed, the guys at Crane were like - man, that is unusual. I wondered why they sent me a $1000 worth of new cam and lifters for free with hardly any haggling!
Hey Flyte - .02 is .02, I need all I can get! LOL
If you don't know the guys at Pick Racing Engines, I suggest you stop by and see them. Very nice father son operation. They do almost all of Jim Wilkes engines these days and many of the Boat Projects in Hot Boat have had Pick's engines in them. I was there a couple of weeks ago and they had a 502 for boat project for next spring. They have their own dyno, capable of 1500 HP testing. These guys made a whipple quad rotor before the quad rotor existed - they made their own custom intake for a 540 and put 2 2.2 liter whipples on it.

[paradigm shift]

I bought the most aggresive cam-lifter package, and am now being told by Crane that they will no longer offer some of the high HP cams in the Roller Hydraulic line - they pushed the envelope too far, and probably went to the lifter mfg'er with the lowest bid. When mine orginally failed, the guys at Crane were like - man, that is unusual. I wondered why they sent me a $1000 worth of new cam and lifters for free with hardly any haggling!
Hey HolyMoly which Crane cames are you refering to. Would the 139651 hyd roller fall in to this selection? Or are you talking bigger. Lots of discussion on boards on Hydrau;ic Roller /Roller lifter life span.
Thanks Andy

[HM]

Paradigm,
I am not sure which one's on the BBC are being discontinued- and I should quote the Crane guy exactly, which was "We are probably are not going to make several of the higher HP roller/hydraulic cams.
Mine is a SBC, and is cam # 119681 - which is their cam for roots blower application.
Degrees Duration @ .050 Int./Exh. 240/248
Degrees Advertised Duration Int./Exh. 306/314
Degree Lobe Separation 114
Open/Close @.050" 11/49
Cam Lift Int./Exh. 63/5
Lash Hot Int./Exh. .000/.000
Gross Lift Int./Exh. .558/.558

[Rexone]

I'm far from an expert on this subject but have had a past similar problem with a standard roller cam that I ran for several years in a blown flatbottom. Cam was an Isky and about every year or two I'd have to replace the cam because of grooves on the backside of the lobes. They indicated it was from excessive idling and low speed operation(which I did, and most every rec. boat does) causing the rollers to bounce on the back side of the lobes. As explained to me the cam was designed to be run hard, not idle. This may or may not have any relevence to the hyd. roller problem here. Just my experience with a non-hyd roller.

[SK48]

Holymoly, Pick knows his stuff but watch out for his business practices. I sent him cylinder heads,supercharger, injection etc. that I paid over $ 6000.00 for, and he used them or sold them, and I never got them back or my money. I really wanted him to build a motor for me but that is the worst experience I have ever had with a so called professional. Pick thought it was funny.

[HM]

Thanks SK48.
I go to Pick through my broker/hot boat pimp - Jim Wilkes. wink
He takes care of me....sometimes misses his promise dates :rolleyes: , but he has always been fair. I would have had Jim Wilkes do/contract my motor, except I was in a little more hurry than Jim could provide, and I took some advice from somewhere else that led me to the current cam issue I have.

[jstwkd]

Jethro,The honeymoon was great the first 5 days.Then it was all about mantazumas revenge for the last 4 days of the honeymoon and 5 days after we got back.Thats why we didnt make tower park. Sorry we missed it.Will make next year for sure.
No This is a Different boat. This is mine the one the olds came out of was my fathers.I put a chevy in his and its runnig great.Mine seams to have all the issues.Im not sure I might have to work all week maybe sat.I do have a ski tow if you still need one and those BBC parts for you.
How is sh!t running?

[FLYTE RISK]

058:
Hey Flyte, Just another comment on roller cams, The factory hyd. rollers are not using the cam profiles that a solid roller cam would normally use: read low lift, slower opening/closing rates, much less spring pressure and constant preloaded contact with the cam lobe. The lobe isn't beating the shit out of the roller at low rpms from normal lash or the cam lobe trying to scrub off the face of the roller by fast ramps. Sorry about your experence with Comp, they have always served me well. Have fun at B-field and be safe. Wish I could be there to see your boat run.058 I realize this, but look at the h.p #s, The flyte boat ran a 9.80 at 108 m.p.h not bad for a lake boat but should have ran better oh well

[058]

Flyte, Sounds like a good weekend, boat ran 108? Thats a kick-ass lake boat. Thats enough to make all those jets run and hide. :D :D :D

[jack14r]

HolyMoly:
058,
Another interesting fact is that most NASCAR and Winston Cup cars run solid tappets, turns out the rollers don't usually make it to the end of the race, and they are on the other end of the RPM range.HolyMoly
Winston Cup rules do not allow roller lifters,but Busch,Craftsman truck,and other NASCAR series allow roller lifters.I am a weekend vintage racer and I have run solid roller lifters forever,and in one motor over 30 hours before rebuild,this motor I turned 8200 in a road race winston cup car.

[HM]

jack 14r,
I had a feeling there was more to that. Thanks. I am just a recreational guy with a fairly hopped up mouse. I have gotten advice from all over and manytimes don't know how to decipher between what is good, bad, or just true for a certain set of circumstances.
I took Pick's advice as they seem to have a pretty good track record. But, it is the direction that has worked for them. I understand that there are people who are very succesful in other directions, and just because one guy/shop can't make something work, does not mean someone else can't.
I will try to make sure I don't make a post like that without fully understanding the why's. Rules are a pretty good reason! But hey, I learn something new everyday.
I had a pretty good engine failure due to my roller hydraulic lifters failing prematurely in comparison to the rest of my motor. This may be a manufacturing problem over application, since 2 manufacturers stop making roller hydraulic lifters because of failures. But, then I heard from another source that the mfg's did not stop making them and was a rumor started by the 1 manufacturer said to still be making them. Even though I thought I had good info from good sources, I did not get the info from the actual source and now feel like a jackass for possibly continuing a rumor that is not true. I am glad I did not post any trade names!
My roller hydraulic failure may just be a fluke and therefore antedotal in referrence. But, that little failure cost me some serious caysh, and I wanted to help someone not have the same thing happen to them.
Many of us get caught up in "More Power!" We get on the phone with Jegs and Summit, and they tell you that the stuff will go anywhere. I no longer go through these guys as I have my own ***boat pimp these days who treats me great and stands behind all the stuff he does. He also helps pick parts that are better suited to my application (from his experience) and helps avoid problems.
I appreciate anytime someone can reduce my ignorance and is why I enjoy these boards.

[dossangers]

holy moly opinion from picks sound right all oil works the same failers are loss of oil pressure ive run kragen 10 40 at 8000rpms with my nitrous no problem ive burned pistons allways lean cond. and av gas stay away from av gas burns very lean for high altitude unless your running 1/4 mile all the time stick with solid cams and save money!

[Clown]

I've had my ultradyne roller cam for 10 years now ,
no signs of whear on the lobes it's a 710 lift in&ex
Dur at .050 is 270&276 . The motor makes 800hp on the DYNO . One thing i do is check the spring pressure every couple of weeks "Springs do loose pressure and you need to either shim or replace them" Onther thing is every 40 hours I replace the lifters wether they look good or not . This motor has never let me down,
Knock on wood! eek!

[West Coast Dave]

Another thing people aren't discussing is rev kits. When you start really spinning an engine you don't want to rely only on the valve spring to keep the lifter in contact w/ the cam lobe. The rev kit spring takes that responsibility and keeps the contact more stable for longer longevity. We use them in our circle track motor and spin it 8500 rpm all day long.