*** Starter Troubles **** HELP !!

[75_Elim]

I've now replaced everything on my motor but the Crank, Pistons and Con-Rods and it's now wanting to give me starter problems. The frikin starter sounds like crap (it's brand new) but it squells like a stuck pig when I turn the key. I've replaced the flex plate, shimed the starter and replaced the started bolts but it still sounds terrible when I turn the key and it won't really turn that fast. I will send a six pack of silvers to anyone that provides the fix to this problem!!
Thanks
75_Elim
aka Jerry
P.S Any questions, post up or call my office 800-975-4270 Ext 8174

[rivercrazy]

Hey bud. Nice to see you on Saturday.
Was it rebuilt or brand new. Does it have any problem engaging on the the flywheel?
It might crank slower because you had a gear reduction model and this one's not. Are your electrical connections tight with no corrosion?

[75_Elim]

Originally posted by rivercrazy:
Hey bud. Nice to see you on Saturday.
Was it rebuilt or brand new. Does it have any problem engaging on the the flywheel?
It might crank slower because you had a gear reduction model and this one's not. Are your electrical connections tight with no corrosion?
Hey RC !
It was good seeing you again also. I still never got a ride in you water rocket ! Next time.
How would I know if a gear reduction is need or was used? ( I already trashed the old one ) This is a rebuilt one from PAW which should be good, but I'm just wondering if I should return it and spend the big cash on an Accel High Torque or even a Hamburger starter. I was told that mine is a little odd because of the bolt pattern. Could that have something to do with it? BTW is on a passenger type 454 with maybe 10.1 compression now. I'd really like to get my boat wet this year and this is the only thing holding me back now. Please Help http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Jerry
aka 75 Elim

[rivercrazy]

Rocket - Hardly!
To be honest, I really don't know. The higher compression will definately make a difference though. You might be getting the squeeling from an improperly lined up starter. But again, I'm not personally sure. Keep shouting for help!!!!!!!
Originally posted by 75_Elim:
Hey RC !
It was good seeing you again also. I still never got a ride in you water rocket ! Next time.
How would I know if a gear reduction is need or was used? ( I already trashed the old one ) This is a rebuilt one from PAW which should be good, but I'm just wondering if I should return it and spend the big cash on an Accel High Torque or even a Hamburger starter. I was told that mine is a little odd because of the bolt pattern. Could that have something to do with it? BTW is on a passenger type 454 with maybe 10.1 compression now. I'd really like to get my boat wet this year and this is the only thing holding me back now. Please Help http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
Jerry
aka 75 Elim

[502procharger]

just a thought. pull your plugs and see if the starter makes the same noises and slow rotation with no commpression. If not then it must not have the balls to turn over your 10 to 1 com. engine. just a thought.

[75_Elim]

I just went to pull the starter off again and the head of one of the bolts was sheared off !!! So now I'm pulling the motor out again http://free.***boat.net/ubb/mad.gif This motor is going to kill me.
Jerry

[69 Elim]

I am guessing the squeeling sound is from the starter not correctly shimmed. my brother had the same problem - trial and error on the shimming till it went away.

[gnarley]

Hey guys do you use the front starter mount??? If not it can cause the starter to flex as it is only hanging from the rear threads. Also do you know the difference between the HI-torque & standard starters just by looking at them? Do you have the factory high torque starter? Your starter should have a threaded stud on the top of the starter holding the end cover on, it is your choice to use it or not, if not & you have lots of compression you may break the bolts or nose-cone. Also did you put the right tooth count flywheel back on? There is also a difference in tooth count on some flex plates and starters & when they are mismatched they make a lot a noise.

[77charger]

Originally posted by 69 Elim:
I am guessing the squeeling sound is from the starter not correctly shimmed. my brother had the same problem - trial and error on the shimming till it went away.
same thing here
is it a bbc?

[75_Elim]

Originally posted by gnarley:
Hey guys do you use the front starter mount??? If not it can cause the starter to flex as it is only hanging from the rear threads. Also do you know the difference between the HI-torque & standard starters just by looking at them? Do you have the factory high torque starter? Your starter should have a threaded stud on the top of the starter holding the end cover on, it is your choice to use it or not, if not & you have lots of compression you may break the bolts or nose-cone. Also did you put the right tooth count flywheel back on? There is also a difference in tooth count on some flex plates and starters & when they are mismatched they make a lot a noise.
I'll have to look at that end bolt to see if it's what you're talking about. As for the flywheell, that's fine, the old one and this B&M on are identical.
Thanks for the help !!
Jerry
aka 75 Elim

[gnarley]

Jerry, I did not describe a high-torque starter in that last post. If you put the two starters together side by side you would see that the high torque main part of the case is longer (has a loger armature inside even though the cases are the same overall length) the brushes on the high torque are right near the end of the case whereas the std starter the brushes are about 2 inches from the end.

[shirkey4750]

Might want to try a GM high torgue starter. They work real well. They come on 99 and higher trucks and can be picked up fairly reasonable. Bought mine off e-bay for $50. Its on a 454 10 to 1 motor.

[Costello]

I second a lot of what Gnarley said. A couple of other things. I once had a certain casting # BBC(can't rememberit!!) that is only to be used with what GM called "iron nose cone" starters. When using a standard starter with this style block, shimming can be up to 1/8" or more to get proper meshing of the ring and starter gear. Not shimming it properly will result in breaking the starter, even a high quality one. Another thing. NOT ALL STARTERS ARE CREATED EQUAL!! I tried to do the "save a buck or two" thing with my most recent project, and it only costs you four bucks when you take that approach. Shell out the money for a quality starter that is rated for higher compression engine, and built well. You get what you pay for, and sometimes not even. I bought a $110 "mini starter" that looked like a good one. My mild BBC daycruiser motor had it on the verge of catching fire after maybe 60 seconds of total cranking time. Luckily I caught the glowing red wires because I had the flooring out and the boat was on the trailer. Junk starters are dangerous in a boat. I then purchased a $159.00 fully clockable, really nice starter from Kragen. Best part...it has a lifetime warranty!! I'll never buy another one if it ever goes bad. So which was the better deal, $110 or $159? I for some reason continue to learn this lesson the hard way, but I think I'm finally catching on.
[This message has been edited by Costello (edited June 27, 2002).]

[gnarley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Costello:
I then purchased a $159.00 fully clockable, really nice starter from Kragen. Best part...it has a lifetime warranty!!
Hey Costello, be careful even with that starter! If you bought it from Kragen it's not Marine rated probably as you know & if you ever get boarded & they want to be real jerks they might just take a look where you don't want & it will cost even more! I bought one of their standard lifetime starters for my BBC Jimmy, it took 2 stores & like 15 boxes of starters to look at before 1 of them turned out to be a factory high torque. I have had no trouble with it in 4 years now!

[75_Elim]

gnarley, shirkey, costello..... Thanks for the info. I didn't get to pull the motor last night, but i will tonight after work. My plan is to pull the motor, pull the starter, and buy one of the high dollar starters like costello was saying. Then start shimming it until it works. It frikin better work.
Thanks Again
Jerry
aka 75 Elim

[PGF545]

I have run into a couple of things on a standard GM type starter that might help. We always check the gear mesh...the way I do that is to use a paper clip which is approx .060 in dia. You want to measure between the gear of the starter and the flywheel gear...(basically the crest of the starter gear and the root of the flywheel gear)...hope I didn't loose you there, but once you see it it will make sense...I hope...lol. I always pull the solenoid off the starter so that I can engage the started gear easily. I have ran into starters that we actually had to mill a little off the housing to get the proper clearence and some we had to shim. We always used the GM bolts that have the knurl on them ...those center the started to the bolt holes. Even with 10:1 compression a standard started should work with no problem...we ran them with 13:1 and never had too many problems. We have since switched to the Tilton Super Starters and 16 volt battery on our Pro Gasser...that thing starts so fast that it will scare you...lol. Another way to tell if you have a high tork starter is to look at the soleniod and there should be a spacer between where the wires come out of the starter housing and bolt to the soleniod...if the wires bolt directly to the soleniod then it is not a high tork unit....I know this applies to the old starts and I am not sure if it applies to the new style starters. I think that GM changes styles around 1995 to the new smaller high torque style. Good luck and I hope this makes sense.
Bernie

[pgf127rt]

75 Elim, I ran TCI starters on my Pro Gas Flat, Compression was near 15 to 1 and as 545 said they started so fast it would scare you and that was with 40 to 45 degrees timing in the engine, they are relatively inexpensive to purchase and are completely rebuildable, the last one I had came off of a hydro that sunk and my starter guy rebuilt it, no problems, but be sure to match the teeth to the flexplate, as this sound's like it could be your problem.

[SPECTRABRENT]

75_Elim,
I had starter problems some years back. I threw the stock GM starter in the trash and pick up an RB Performance mega torque marine starter. Ron is the owner and they are located in Parker, Az. 520-669-6411.
Jim Brock carries this starter he is in Pacoima 818-890-1867.
Good Luck,
Brent

[Dans66Stevens]

I use to Smoke my battery cables!!!! I use a set of old Welding CABLES!!!! http://www.plauder-smilies.com/happy/xyxthumbs.gif

[75_Elim]

********GOOD NEWS ***********
I bought a high torque GM starter with an aluminum nose instead of the steel (makes it lighter) and it seems to work great http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif My motor fired up perfectly and really quiet too. The only trouble I had was getting my new logs cooled down. I think I f'd up my water lines when I had the motor out this morning. I need to play around with the flow to get it running cool so I can break-in my new cam. But for now I'm frikin happy that it's running strong again and I can't wait to get it on the water.
Thanks to all of you that gave tips. I did talk with Jim Brock and I was going to buy a starter from him this morning but his shop wasn't open when I went over there. I ended up at PAW and they had what I needed and it was only $70.
Jerry
aka 75 Elim