Let's Talk About Dragboat Safety and Accident Analysis

[DeputyDawg]

Being as we will be trying to race next year there are some things that I have been thinking about.
1. Do any of the race organizations do in depth analysis whenever an accident occurs, and do they make their findings available to the racers so that they may learn something?
2. I would also like to hear the thoughts of those of you who race on the various safety guidelines/rules that are in place currently for jetboats in all organizations and what you think could or should be done differently.
Thanks!

[Squirtin Thunder]

Being as we will be trying to race next year there are some things that I have been thinking about.
1. Do any of the race organizations do in depth analysis whenever an accident occurs, and do they make their findings available to the racers so that they may learn something?
2. I would also like to hear the thoughts of those of you who race on the various safety guidelines/rules that are in place currently for jetboats in all organizations and what you think could or should be done differently.
Thanks!
Yes Jimmy you are correct in my eyes as we have talked about before.

[sdpm]

Being as we will be trying to race next year there are some things that I have been thinking about.
1. Do any of the race organizations do in depth analysis whenever an accident occurs, and do they make their findings available to the racers so that they may learn something?
2. I would also like to hear the thoughts of those of you who race on the various safety guidelines/rules that are in place currently for jetboats in all organizations and what you think could or should be done differently.
Thanks!
I have never seen anything in writing after a crash. Everything I ever get is from someone else or through the grapevine. Crashes are very hush hush. It is on a need to know basis.
I think that all jet boats should have a popoff valve.
Legs and feet cannot be under the dash.
Hauns device used.
Run 1/8 mi or 1000 ft.
Ideally I would love to see all boats with capsules.

[BUSBY]

Neil (sdpm) is right here ... if and when an investigation is performed it is usually performed after a fatality with the local authorities.
As far as the findings go, as Neil stated ... the findings are on a need to know basis. No secrets, but usually the family is involved, etc. etc. etc.
90% of the time there is a boat shop and/or builder involved with dragboats. They are usually the ones who dig into what's and why's. They tend to not share their ideas too much as they would loose the reputation of building boats that are safe to race. While I know this isn't viewed as a good working ethic, it happens due to the competitive business that it is.
Safety,
Jets should have a pop-off and ratchet IMO
Chute jacket IMO if over 90 mph
Hauns device
Shin guards (baseball catcher sytle) to protect knees/legs in case of an over the dash situation

[sdpm]

Neil (sdpm) is right here ... if and when an investigation is performed it is usually performed after a fatality with the local authorities.
As far as the findings go, as Neil stated ... the findings are on a need to know basis. No secrets, but usually the family is involved, etc. etc. etc.
90% of the time there is a boat shop and/or builder involved with dragboats. They are usually the ones who dig into what's and why's. They tend to not share their ideas too much as they would loose the reputation of building boats that are safe to race. While I know this isn't viewed as a good working ethic, it happens due to the competitive business that it is.
Safety,
Jets should have a pop-off and ratchet IMO
Chute jacket IMO if over 90 mph
Hauns device
Shin guards (baseball catcher sytle) to protect knees/legs in case of an over the dash situation
Your right Brian, I forgot about the shin guards (and I am starting to see a few drivers wear them especially in capsules).
How about a cup (to protect the boys) :eek:
The only good thing is in case of a fire we have alot of water around us!! :wink:
Full face helmets with a mouth piece and a sleeve attached to the helmet for no water entry.
f-16 fighter ejection seat with parachute!! Sorry couldn't resist! :wink:

[BUSBY]

Your right Brian, I forgot about the shin guards (and I am starting to see a few drivers wear them especially in capsules).
Yeah ... I wear 'em ... not too interested in breaking my legs ...
How about a cup (to protect the boys) :eek:
:( uncomfortable :(
f-16 fighter ejection seat with parachute!! :wink:
:idea: maybe :idea:

[DeputyDawg]

What kind of injuries are usually seen in accidents where the driver is just pitched out and not hit by the boat?

[bp]

Being as we will be trying to race next year there are some things that I have been thinking about.
1. Do any of the race organizations do in depth analysis whenever an accident occurs, and do they make their findings available to the racers so that they may learn something?
i have only seen this happen rarely, and it's usually only when it happens with capsules. btw, hipwell was not the first person to lose his life in a capsule, and the previous fatalitys all resulted in significant changes to capsule rules. but for slower boats (slower than capsule speed), the issue that caused the boat to do what it may have done is usually determined by the crew after the fact, if it's not clearly obvious. and there have been some where the cause was fairly obvious.
2. I would also like to hear the thoughts of those of you who race on the various safety guidelines/rules that are in place currently for jetboats in all organizations and what you think could or should be done differently.
Thanks!
since i have no idea where you are or where you are going to race, you can check the rule books for the various organizations. sdba's is available on their website, as is njba's. i'm not sure if cdba's book is, but there's is very similar to everyone else's.
if you're running a driveline yoke (instead of a lenco), you are required to have a driveline cover in sdba and ihba. njba does not require one. my thoughts? it's easier to keep an eye on it and check the joints if it's not covered; it's easier to keep things grease free if it is covered. so i put it on, take it off, put it on....
loader bolts are required to be drilled and tapped through the intake, with nuts and washers securing the screws from the top. a "must have", and "must do". most techs inspect closely for this (like me), some don't. use hardened steel machine screws, not stainless.
all motor mounting bolting should have at least 3-4 threads showing outside the nuts. some techs inspect closely for this too, and won't pass you until you install correctly sized bolts.
this can go on and on, but you get the drift. check the rule books (all of them) and make sure you are in compliance before you get there, it will make life easier.
i have a differing opinion from brian and neil, but that's ok. i wear a chute/no-chute jacket, and will not install a chute for the boat i'm driving, at the speeds i'm driving. but if i were running a daytona in my class, i'd have a chute installed on the jacket. my feeling is that it depends on what type of boat you are running, and what speeds/ets you are running with it.
i also firmly believe in every other piece of safety gear available. i wear an sfi fire retardent driving suit whenever i race. njba does not require it, which i don't believe is right. i use the lifeline helmet restraint with the neck collar underneath. as far as water intrusion, if you see what i have on and the way it's secured, i don't believe it's an issue. i also wear ballistic shorts. when my stuff comes off at the track, it stays in the boat until i put it back on, otherwise i might leave the pit and forget something.
at any one of these places, as weekends drone on, there are times when you can get to the staging lanes without a piece of your safety gear such as the shorts, or the neck collar, or perhaps the helmet restraint if you took it off, and actually get launched without it. you're the person that is going to know you don't have it on. geez, i made it that time, lets see what i can run without next time... YOU are the person responsible for yourself, just as YOU are responsible for driving it through safely or lifting. you always need to satisfy yourself your own i's are dotted and t's are crossed before getting into the boat and getting launched. if you remove ANYTHING once you are on the water, stop, don't go, wait 'til next time. make sure everything is as it should be before going.
lastly, have experienced knowledgeable people watching the boat (whatever it is) that know what your type of boat is supposed to look like going down the track at the speed/et you are trying to run. that's the best thing you can have when starting out - make sure the thing can make safe, full passes, then proceed.

[sdpm]

I agree with Bob on the chute or no chute jacket. I have seen the chute get caught up on something on or in the boat because the driver did not clear the boat. The other problem with a chute jacket is that is slows you down real quick and the boat or parts are still comming at you. So on that matter I think it can go either way and personal prefference.

[cyclone]

I've not witnessed any crashes at the track, just a few results afterwards. I'm undecided on the chute/no chute deal and although it may sound grotesque, i think the only way for me to reach a decision as to whether or not i'd personally want to wear one is by viewing similar boats like mine crash. I hate to think about something awful like that happening but trying to visualize me getting tossed out of the boat and the chute opening as the boat is flipping backwards or sideways is tough. Because I have zero experience crashing or seeing a tunnel boat like mine crash and what the driver experiences during a crash makes it tough to imagine all the variables.
Its kind of crappy. i dont want to see crashes but then i do just for my own decision making process. i also wonder if i raced in an area with deep water, whether i could get caught up in it and possibly drown. This doens't seem to be an issue at Ming where the water isn't terribly deep. At least that's what i've heard.

[BUSBY]

I've not witnessed any crashes at the track, just a few results afterwards. I'm undecided on the chute/no chute deal and although it may sound grotesque, i think the only way for me to reach a decision as to whether or not i'd personally want to wear one is by viewing similar boats like mine crash. I hate to think about something awful like that happening but trying to visualize me getting tossed out of the boat and the chute opening as the boat is flipping backwards or sideways is tough. Because I have zero experience crashing or seeing a tunnel boat like mine crash and what the driver experiences during a crash makes it tough to imagine all the variables.
Its kind of crappy. i dont want to see crashes but then i do just for my own decision making process. i also wonder if i raced in an area with deep water, whether i could get caught up in it and possibly drown. This doens't seem to be an issue at Ming where the water isn't terribly deep. At least that's what i've heard.
Mike ... whenever you want ... we have dozens of videos from 1986 until current ... plenty of accidents w/ tunnels ... you learn a lot from watching accidents.

[cyclone]

bench racer's movie party at your house? i'll bring the beer and peanuts.

[canuck1]

I don't get how you guys run without seat belts, roll bars or motor restraints.

[sdba069]

As far as my experience with SDBA, all accidents are investigated, or I guess most are, even the ones not ending in a crash. Speaking as a former SDBA board member, we always wanted to know why a boat may have acted strangely, whether it crashed or not. This to hopefully find and repair a problem to prevent it from happening again. I can't remember publically announcing the results of an investigation following an accident, unless there was a safety issue involved which other drivers needed to be made aware of. Unless, due to a pending investigation of some kind, I would think that information obtained would be available upon request to the board of directors. Personally, I wore a chute jacket, fire retardant suit, fire gloves, full face helmet, and helmet restraints.

[sdba069]

Hey Canuck......... As far as seatbelts in an open boat, think about being strapped into a boat upside down, possibly unconscious. lifejacket wouldn't do you much good, you think. Rollbars were tried in some open boats years ago, but I have no idea why that didn't seem to go over.

[Oldsquirt]

Hey Canuck......... As far as seatbelts in an open boat, think about being strapped into a boat upside down, possibly unconscious. lifejacket wouldn't do you much good, you think. Rollbars were tried in some open boats years ago, but I have no idea why that didn't seem to go over.
I think he was being a bit of a wise guy. He's one of those nuts that runs tin boats in like a 1/4" of water and gravel surrounded by rocks and trees and....:D

[steelcomp]

I think he was being a bit of a wise guy. He's one of those nuts that runs tin boats in like a 1/4" of water and gravel surrounded by rocks and trees and....:D
Freekin off-road boaters!! :D :D

[sleekcrafter]

Why should blowoff's be mandatory in all jetboat's? Not all boats react the same, tunnel verses a Veehull, A Veehull will lay over and bow steer pitch the driver, A tunnel will go most likely straight. A ratchet I can see for boats over a 100mph, reguardless of hull design. just my 2 cents
Sleek

[DeputyDawg]

bp posted--i have a differing opinion from brian and neil, but that's ok. i wear a chute/no-chute jacket, and will not install a chute for the boat i'm driving, at the speeds i'm driving. but if i were running a daytona in my class, i'd have a chute installed on the jacket. my feeling is that it depends on what type of boat you are running, and what speeds/ets you are running with it.
Please help me understand what your thinking is here bp. Why would you wear a chute if you were running a Daytona at the same speed/et that you are running now, but you don't wear one while running your swtd being as they are both tunnels. Do different tunnels usually crash in different ways? If so, how?

[bp]

I've not witnessed any crashes at the track, just a few results afterwards. I'm undecided on the chute/no chute deal .
i can understand the indecision. but, you are running a relatively light, not real light, but relatively light pickle fork tunnel into the mid to high 120s, and perhaps higher. there's no question that your greatest risk is blowover, not hook and toss. that's not saying it would, just that attitude and ride need to be watched all the time to make sure it's correct. as rich durnell said right after it happened to propduster, "there was nothing he could do".
for that type of ride, you do need a chute for separation.
i also wonder if i raced in an area with deep water, whether i could get caught up in it and possibly drown. This doens't seem to be an issue at Ming where the water isn't terribly deep. At least that's what i've heard.
i knew a guy about 18 years ago at trinity lake that got caught and ended up about 300' down. ming is very shallow, as are most places we race. people want to recover boats if something bad happens.

[canuck1]

Hey Canuck......... As far as seatbelts in an open boat, think about being strapped into a boat upside down, possibly unconscious. lifejacket wouldn't do you much good, you think. Rollbars were tried in some open boats years ago, but I have no idea why that didn't seem to go over.
I wasn't being a smart ass I was asking a real question. No, seat belts without the rest of the needed gear wouldn't work(seat,cage,etc). Wouldn't you be less likely to be knocked out if you were properly restrained/not thrown from the boat?

[sleekcrafter]

DD, there is a slight difference here, the SW is a modified Veehull, the Datona is an air entrapment tunnel. I don't think a SW has "ever" blown over, where there are several occations where the Daytona' s have done so. I may be wrong here correct me if I am. Sleek

[steelcomp]

Why should blowoff's be mandatory in all jetboat's? Not all boats react the same, tunnel verses a Veehull, A Veehull will lay over and bow steer pitch the driver, A tunnel will go most likely straight. A ratchet I can see for boats over a 100mph, reguardless of hull design. just my 2 cents
Sleek
When you're running above, say, 100, and you have your shoe down below the keel, and you have a catostrophic failure, or you just take your foot out too fast, (say you get a little out of shape...most guys don't know to keep their head and let off easy) you're goin out. I've come close at 85-90 in my Bahner tunnel. (I had a death grip on the wheel, and stood on it real fast!)You're going out over the dash, and if your legs are under it, they're both getting broken. (OK...a little dramatic, but to make a point) Chances are, the boat's going to turn anyway, regardless of hull. In practicality, I think a popoff for EVERY jet it extreme, but I understand the "why" behind the statement.

[steelcomp]

I wasn't being a smart ass I was asking a real question. No, seat belts without the rest of the needed gear wouldn't work(seat,cage,etc). Wouldn't you be less likely to be knocked out if you were properly restrained/not thrown from the boat?
Drag boats are usually very light weight, and have a tendancy to come apart when crashed hard. You don't want to be any where near the jagged teeth of fiberglass and flying parts if you can help it. Also, I'm assuming that in most of the water you race in, the roll bar is going to keep you in the dry, even upside down in the river. Your boats don't come apart...they're built with crashing in ming. Very big difference.

[Oldsquirt]

I wasn't being a smart ass I was asking a real question. No, seat belts without the rest of the needed gear wouldn't work(seat,cage,etc). Wouldn't you be less likely to be knocked out if you were properly restrained/not thrown from the boat?
Sorry if I misinterpreted your remarks. Thought you were just pointing out how you guys do it differently.

[DeputyDawg]

sleek posted--DD, there is a slight difference here, the SW is a modified Veehull, the Datona is an air entrapment tunnel. I don't think a SW has "ever" blown over, where there are several occations where the Daytona' s have done so. I may be wrong here correct me if I am. Sleek
Well, I can certainly understand that a Daytona would blow over easier because the tunnels are deeper thus more air goes under the boat and the more air the better the chance of one blowing over if attitude isn't right. I find it hard to believe that a swtd has never blown over since there have been some damn fast swtds over the years, and while a swtds tunnels are not as deep as a Daytona they are still tunnels that air passes through and I would think that at the right speed and the wrong attitude the swtd would go over just as fast as a daytona. I have no idea if that is the case or not, but it seems that way to me. Also, I have always looked at TX-19s and other gullwings as being air entrapment hulls. I have never heard anyone call a Daytona an air entrapment tunnel although I guess they kind of are. The gullwings aren't tunnels but they will sure as hell blow over.

[canuck1]

Drag boats are usually very light weight, and have a tendancy to come apart when crashed hard. You don't want to be any where near the jagged teeth of fiberglass and flying parts if you can help it. Also, I'm assuming that in most of the water you race in, the roll bar is going to keep you in the dry, even upside down in the river. Your boats don't come apart...they're built with crashing in ming. Very big difference.
You just answered the question as to why I have a aluminum hull. As for water depth you would be wrong

[BUSBY]

A tunnel will go most likely straight.
Not in the world I live in ... I've had the death grip like Scott (steelcomp) was speaking of numerous times ... so IMO Daytona's HOOK LEFT! HARD! And it'll scare the crap out of you (well maybe not literally ... but you get the drift)
Disclosure: Of course these were times traveling in excess of 110 mph with a large blower motor and the pop off didn't open ... my experiences only ... so take it for what it's worth ... and I'll keep driving my Hydro :wink: much safer at 160 :D

[steelcomp]

Well, I can certainly understand that a Daytona would blow over easier because the tunnels are deeper thus more air goes under the boat and the more air the better the chance of one blowing over if attitude isn't right. I find it hard to believe that a swtd has never blown over since there have been some damn fast swtds over the years, and while a swtds tunnels are not as deep as a Daytona they are still tunnels that air passes through and I would think that at the right speed and the wrong attitude the swtd would go over just as fast as a daytona. I have no idea if that is the case or not, but it seems that way to me. Also, I have always looked at TX-19s and other gullwings as being air entrapment hulls. I have never heard anyone call a Daytona an air entrapment tunnel although I guess they kind of are. The gullwings aren't tunnels but they will sure as hell blow over.
DD...if you look at the front of a pickle fork tunnel, you'll see the front edge of what looks like a wing connecting the two sponsons. This in fact is a leading edge of an air foil, which is the theory behind a true tunnel boat. (On true tunnel boats, the top of the air foil continues all the way back around the cockpit to the back of the boat, and is a very intentional shape) The air that goes over the top of that leading edge has to travel further than the air going below, which means it has to accelerate to do so, and this causes a low pressure above the boat, not necessarily high pressure under. As the boat's attitude becomes more nose high, the angle of attack of that leading edge (actually the chord through the air foil it's creating) increases, causing more distance for that air to travel, cauasing even lower pressure above, or more "lift". The curve at which this pressure differential increases is very quick as the nose comes up, and unpredictable beyond a certain point. Mod VP hulls don't have this aerodynamic characteristic, and have the tunnels to actually help dump the air from underneath. Mod VP's usually don't act much like a tunnel except to say they have less wetted area, and less friction, and do "pack" a certain amount of air, but the effect is far less that a pickle fork, with no aerodynamic design above the tunnel. The gullwing just plain old traps air, and really has no where for it to go, so as it increases in speed, if the angle is such, that pressure under the boat just increases untill it goes over, mostly by deflection at that point, rather than pressure differential. Old school used to be fly the nose to get the boat out of the water, and gullwings were notorious for blowing over much over 100. Daytona's blow over, too, but can be real quick if that "lift" is controlled. The mod VP's usually don't ET real well (not that they can't) but IMO are a safer super high HP deal, like blown gas or fuel jets that are running in the 130+ range and rely on just brute power, rather than aerodynamics. This is ALL from what I've come to learn over the last couple of years and could be completely wrong, but that's my underatanding of the differences. Maybe others will help clean up some of the mistakes.

[steelcomp]

And it'll scare the crap out of you (well maybe not literally ... but you get the drift)
Made me go pee-pee. :hammer2:

[Moneypitt]

The APBA class of Jersey speed skiffs must have bars. They kinda look like roll bars, but are actually there to protect the driver from the other boats. They had issues of boats running up the back or side of other boats, and some drivers hurt. The bars are there protect the driver. Another safety issue is throttle return springs, yes at least 2, and not on the linkage, directly on the butterfly shaft levers. Also the "kill" lanyard, required by every race's tech inspection, and an instant fuel shut off within the driver's reach on anything injected/blown.(especially fuelers)..........MP

[DeputyDawg]

steelcomp posted--DD...if you look at the front of a pickle fork tunnel, you'll see the front edge of what looks like a wing connecting the two sponsons. This in fact is a leading edge of an air foil, which is the theory behind a true tunnel boat. (On true tunnel boats, the top of the air foil continues all the way back around the cockpit to the back of the boat, and is a very intentional shape) The air that goes over the top of that leading edge has to travel further than the air going below, which means it has to accelerate to do so, and this causes a low pressure above the boat, not necessarily high pressure under. As the boat's attitude becomes more nose high, the angle of attack of that leading edge (actually the chord through the air foil it's creating) increases, causing more distance for that air to travel, cauasing even lower pressure above, or more "lift". The curve at which this pressure differential increases is very quick as the nose comes up, and unpredictable beyond a certain point. Mod VP hulls don't have this aerodynamic characteristic, and have the tunnels to actually help dump the air from underneath. Mod VP's usually don't act much like a tunnel except to say they have less wetted area, and less friction, and do "pack" a certain amount of air, but the effect is far less that a pickle fork, with no aerodynamic design above the tunnel.
Okay, that all makes sense, but where then does a CP tunnel fit in the mix? The bottom of a CP is just like a Daytona(I think) but a CP doesn't have the extended outside sponsons(pickleforks) with the adjoining wing.

[cyclone]

I'm not so sure that the Daytona and the copies/splashes that followed are true tunnel hulls. Its been explained to me that a true tunnel boat doesn't have a center pod.
Also, the Daytona is one of the only "tunnel" boats to have the wing between the sponsons which is a bandaid to keep the nose from lifting at speed. Most of the tunnel boat's that followed in the Daytona's footsteps have similar bottom designs but different deck designs, which supposedly helped to increase downforce on the bow and reduce the risk of a blowover. Of course its all academic because if you fly any of thes boats (Daytona, Cheyenne, Stealth, Shadow, Texas Tunnel) high and loose enough you run the risk of possibly blowing over. This is what i've gathered from listening to guys who've run all of these hulls in competition.
anyone know for sure?

[DeputyDawg]

Cyclone, when you say that the Daytona is one of the only tunnels to have a wing between the sponsons are you talking about those little aluminum wings that some of the faster Daytonas have run before, or the deck design itself?

[BUSBY]

Made me go pee-pee. :hammer2:
Well we didn't need to have any studies done when I pulled those off, it was the crappy brain and plumbing job that comes with the Meirsch pop off ... after almost being flung (I like that word because it really is what happens to you, you're flung from the boat) out ... it was all caused by a slow pop off release.
That's why I engineered a new improved brain with "no brainer" results ... it works great, and sh*t cans all of that stupid air shuttle crap.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2358popoffbrain_002.JPG

[BUSBY]

Of course its all academic because if you fly any of thes boats (Daytona, Cheyenne, Stealth, Shadow, Texas Tunnel) high and loose enough you run the risk of possibly blowing over. This is what i've gathered from listening to guys who've run all of these hulls in competition.
Well for that matter ... any boat that is flown "too high" will have a chance of going over ... tunnels are just easier.
And yes ... a "true" tunnel has no center pod and use the design from hydroplanes ... not drag hydro's, but big hydro's ... like the Miss Budwiser. I spoke to Bob Leach (the owner and founder of Eliminator Boats) about this and that is what he stated years ago. They were one of the firsts to start chasing the design ... and others followed suit.
And Mike ... you are now "one of those guys" who is running one in competition ... so we'll be asking you technical questions soon ... but hopefully not about blowing over! :(

[sdpm]

Great job Brian, you da man! ;)

[cyclone]

Cyclone, when you say that the Daytona is one of the only tunnels to have a wing between the sponsons are you talking about those little aluminum wings that some of the faster Daytonas have run before, or the deck design itself?
Yes i'm talking about the small aluminum airfoil, wing or whatever you'd like call it between the front sponsons. Greg Shoemaker once told me that back in the day at Eliminator he and a few others engineered one of those with a gyroscope that somehow adjusted the wing if bow of the boat ever got too much attitude during a pass. Wish i had pics of that deal. interesting stuff to say the least.

[sdba069]

The Earl's and 18 CP's are usually not known for blowovers, but rather spinouts. You usually relate blowovers more with the hulls with the larger, deeper tunnels, such as Cheyenne, Eliminator, Edge, Stealth, etc. I don't know if any of you are familiar with the incident where Tim Place crashed his TFJ right out of the gate at Ming a few years ago, but after breaking a camshaft a little ways out of the gate, it, basically screwed itself in. He called me a couple of days later and inquired as to how much power we had ever run with the Bower's or Jetaway ratchet. He had a pop-off, no ratchet, and it didn't help. His thoughts were that the popoff didn't have time to open before the boat chined in. I've run a jetaway for years and a Bower's deal before that. I prefer the Jetaway because of the neutral feature. The ratchet is the deal for me, but it won't do you any good if the pump were to lock up. As far as Tim's question, we have run near 2000 HP on a Jetaway with no failures.

[BUSBY]

I don't know if any of you are familiar with the incident where Tim Place crashed his TFJ right out of the gate at Ming a few years ago, but after breaking a camshaft a little ways out of the gate, it, basically screwed itself in.
He had a pop-off, no ratchet, and it didn't help. His thoughts were that the popoff didn't have time to open before the boat chined in. I've run a jetaway for years and a Bower's deal before that. I prefer the Jetaway because of the neutral feature. The ratchet is the deal for me, but it won't do you any good if the pump were to lock up.
Yup ... you're right ... I remember that accident, that's why we run both. They both have different safety features ... and are needed in combination IMO ... the ratchet is awesome for engine failure and the pop off for pump failure ... people tend to think that they do the same thing ... but the truth is far from that.
Good points made ...

[DeputyDawg]

How come you don't hardly see any TFJs anymore, have they all crashed? There is one called the Texas Express that was at Ft. Worth. It was a Placecraft and the guy's name is Jimmy Rollins. That is the only true TFJ I have seen or heard of in several years. When I say true TFJ I mean that the boat actually runs some nitro(up to 50% I think). Were most of the TFJs Placecrafts and Southwinds because they are less likely to blow over?

[BUSBY]

How come you don't hardly see any TFJs anymore, have they all crashed? There is one called the Texas Express that was at Ft. Worth. It was a Placecraft and the guy's name is Jimmy Rollins. That is the only true TFJ I have seen or heard of in several years. When I say true TFJ I mean that the boat actually runs some nitro(up to 50% I think). Were most of the TFJs Placecrafts and Southwinds because they are less likely to blow over?
Too much $$$ for what you get IMO ... it's easier to step into (sorry to say it guys) a Hydro and go much faster and safer on the same budget.
I'm sure there are a lot of different opinions here ... but this is mine. I set mine up to run BFJ with NJBA ... 3 years of runs and tuning to get where? Into a hydro ... running alcohol. :hammer2:

[sdpm]

Hey Brian, did you happen to find any info on that boat? Neil

[Squirtin Thunder]

How come you don't hardly see any TFJs anymore, have they all crashed? There is one called the Texas Express that was at Ft. Worth. It was a Placecraft and the guy's name is Jimmy Rollins. That is the only true TFJ I have seen or heard of in several years. When I say true TFJ I mean that the boat actually runs some nitro(up to 50% I think). Were most of the TFJs Placecrafts and Southwinds because they are less likely to blow over?
Well BAE has some kind of combo that fits into this quite well. Jimmy you remember Blown Alky !!!

[sdpm]

Hey Jim, what ever happened to that boat? I saw pictures awhile ago and that was it. Has it ever ran?

[Squirtin Thunder]

Hey Jim, what ever happened to that boat? I saw pictures awhile ago and that was it. Has it ever ran?
He has run it, it was at Tower Park.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Hey Jim, what ever happened to that boat? I saw pictures awhile ago and that was it. Has it ever ran?
I know it is in here somewhere. It was there !!!
http://www.banderlog.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1717
http://www.banderlog.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1730
http://www.banderlog.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1708
http://www.banderlog.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1697

[steelcomp]

Here's a good example of something that's very close to a true tunnel boat. Center cockpit, single seat. The air that is passing over the top of the boat is in what's called laminar flow, and that's because of the smooth surface all the way down the side of the boat. This is directly above (or close to it) the tunnel. In fact, if you look closely, you can see there is a tunnel on the top of the boat as well, between the center cockpit and the outer sponson, on each side. This is actually the top of an airfoil, designed to create lift, just as a wing does. If you were to take a cross section down the center of the tunnel, looking at the side, you'd see it was shaped much like an airfoil. Mod VP's like my Bahner, PC's, CP tunnels, Southwind TD's don't have any of this upper surface to create the "top of the airfoil" shape, if you will. There's really too much to describe about how a true tunnel works, even in simplicity, so if you really want to know how a tunnel boat got it's name, and how it works, here's a like I think every tunnel or mod vp owner should read.http://boatdesign.net/articles/tunnel-hull-design/index.htm
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312cliffview.jpg
Here's another illustration
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/1729aeromarine-forces.gif

[BUSBY]

:D :D
I saw a couple of things that would cause an argument with one jetter out there!
:D :D

[bp]

actually, tim place crashed at chowchilla just off the starting line, not at ming. very similar tracks, not very far apart.
whether or not they're true tunnels or not is irrelevant. this is what we have to work with.
the little wings on the front of daytonas don't prevent blowovers. adjusted correctly, they might slow the ascent down a little so it gives the driver a bit more time to escape backwards.
daytona's and the clones have big air boxes under the bow. all you need to do is look at it to know it's a giant air collector; a lot of cubic feet of space is up there, traping air as the boat moves forward, compressing it as it passes through two smaller area "tunnels" exiting the back of the boat. this air must increase in velocity as it travels from the box through the tunnels (due to the reduction in area), and any pressure increases result in increased lift to the bulk of the aft end as speed increases. this requires serious attention when thinking about balance depending on how much pressure is allowed to develop in the box. that pressure is going to be dependent on several factors, two of which are the speed of the boat and attitude which affects the area of the box directly facing the air. kind of like holding a 4x8 sheet of plywood against a big wind, or holding it on edge.
there are subtle differences between daytonas and the others. cheyennes are very similar, but my personal opinion is that stealths are less prone to this than daytonas. but this is just my casual observation, based on being around a fast daytona a lot for almost 3 years, and looking and comparing with others.
cps have a slight collection area near the bow, and two tunnels that are very similar in area moving toward the rear. much less frontal collection area than a daytona. placecrafts and southwinds virtually have no frontal collection area - air under the bow, back about 8' spills out the sides, although at a higher speed some will make it through the tunnels. much less lift is generated as a result of the tunnel presence, when compared to a cp or pickle for type tunnel.
while brian may have had some issues going straight on loss of power, i know of others that have lost power and gone straight as a string with daytonas. setup has a lot to do with the way boats react. having safety items functioning properly is also good. .

[sdba069]

Setup is certainly one of the reasons a tunnel may or may not spin when a sudden decelleration occurs, I think that luck is probably the biggest player there. I've built and raced 2 Mirage drag boats since 1994 and feel they were the safest jets I've ever been around. I've owned and driven Cheyenne's, Eliminator's, Nordic's, Centurion's, and others and if I ever get back in a drag boat, it will be another Mirage, assuming I can buy the white one back. In the 5 years that I ran the last one, I lost power twice in the 110 mph range and it never even tried to turn. Anyone at Malvern about 4 years ago will attest to that. A friend of mine from Ok bought the first one that I built and ran it in the 10 second class for quite a while. Anyone who ever saw him race it, figured that it was a miracle that he never got tossed out of it. The boat was easily capable of running low 9's and that was how he wanted it tuned. He would run full throttle to wherever he thought he needed to and dump the gas. It would land the nose so hard that it looked like a crash from the spray of water. It never did anything weird. He actually won a NDBA championship like that. I believe the reason they didn't didn't tend to spin was because the center pod ran further forward and deeper at the front than the outside sponsons. The center pod would land first and tend to steer the boat straight instead of dropping one of the outside sponsons first and spinning that direction. Most of you tunnel jet guys already know, but i will mention it anyway, most of the time a tunnel jet will go left in a spin. The reason being, that when you slow down rapidly, the motor unloads the torque and drops the left side sponson which in turn grabs the water and turns left, immediately. Of course, the fact that you loose the ability to correct with the steering(thrust) doesn't help. All this said, I wouldn't bet anything that the Mirage won't spin, and will never try to find out, on purpose.

[BUSBY]

Most of you tunnel jet guys already know, but i will mention it anyway, most of the time a tunnel jet will go left in a spin. The reason being, that when you slow down rapidly, the motor unloads the torque and drops the left side sponson which in turn grabs the water and turns left, immediately. Of course, the fact that you loose the ability to correct with the steering(thrust) doesn't help.
While a lot of you out there don't know me ... Bob (as others) does and he know's of the boat I was driving (Ron's) ... a blown Daytona ... speeds well into the upper 120's and low 130's ... and what Gary has said here is exactly what the problem was ... but the loss of power was from me taking my foot out of it thinking that the pop off was open ...
This particular Daytona, as well as two other well known fast Daytona's (Harold Bruce's & Don Harris'), are perfect examples of what happens when a tunnel "lifts" ... at higher speeds, they "hop" ... hop out of the water caused by so much lift & thrust ... I am going to try to download vidoes of this and post it. If you watch the boats from head on ... you will see them bouncing vertically as they reach the big end ...
When you think you've released the pop off and let your foot out to only find out that the left turn you are experiencing is cuased by a piece of crap pop off brain ... you wake up real quick to try to figure out what the problem is ... just my experiences ... take them for what they're worth ... but I drive a Hydro now, so I guess you could say I'm a sell out :)

[jweeks123]

it was the crappy brain and plumbing job that comes with the Meirsch pop off
what was mr meirsch's response when you informed him about this
jw

[Squirtin Thunder]

Setup is certainly one of the reasons a tunnel may or may not spin when a sudden decelleration occurs, I think that luck is probably the biggest player there. I've built and raced 2 Mirage drag boats since 1994 and feel they were the safest jets I've ever been around. I've owned and driven Cheyenne's, Eliminator's, Nordic's, Centurion's, and others and if I ever get back in a drag boat, it will be another Mirage, assuming I can buy the white one back. In the 5 years that I ran the last one, I lost power twice in the 110 mph range and it never even tried to turn. Anyone at Malvern about 4 years ago will attest to that. A friend of mine from Ok bought the first one that I built and ran it in the 10 second class for quite a while. Anyone who ever saw him race it, figured that it was a miracle that he never got tossed out of it. The boat was easily capable of running low 9's and that was how he wanted it tuned. He would run full throttle to wherever he thought he needed to and dump the gas. It would land the nose so hard that it looked like a crash from the spray of water. It never did anything weird. He actually won a NDBA championship like that. I believe the reason they didn't didn't tend to spin was because the center pod ran further forward and deeper at the front than the outside sponsons. The center pod would land first and tend to steer the boat straight instead of dropping one of the outside sponsons first and spinning that direction. Most of you tunnel jet guys already know, but i will mention it anyway, most of the time a tunnel jet will go left in a spin. The reason being, that when you slow down rapidly, the motor unloads the torque and drops the left side sponson which in turn grabs the water and turns left, immediately. Of course, the fact that you loose the ability to correct with the steering(thrust) doesn't help. All this said, I wouldn't bet anything that the Mirage won't spin, and will never try to find out, on purpose.
Was yours a Brad Collins version or the Guy in Floridas ???

[BAE_557]

Hey Jim, what ever happened to that boat? I saw pictures awhile ago and that was it. Has it ever ran?
I ran the boat last weekend at Modesto Reservoir, it is a true Top Fuel Jet. I run a Jet-Away with a Wilder Pop-off valve. The boat is a Mach 1 tunnel with a Placecraft splash bottom modified by Jeff Bennett. The run I made on Saturday was 6 seconds total verified by the Altronics data collecting system. The first second, the launch controller ramped up the engine from 4000 to a max of 9000 RPM, then the last 5 seconds were WOT being limited at 9000 RPM. I run an Aggressor AA impeller, both pump and impeller were prepped by MPD.
Top Fuel Jet (http://www.banderlog.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1388)

[Cs19]

perfect examples of what happens when a tunnel "lifts" ... at higher speeds, they "hop" ... hop out of the water caused by so much lift & thrust
My 19 does the same thing, and Im no where near the speeds Harold and Don were running. After watching alot of video I think daytonas have so much lift built into the boat that it just drives itself out of the water to the point where the intake becomes exposed and gets air.In my case after that happens the boat never fully recovers and kinda hops and skips it way through the lights.Its a sketchy feeling at a dollar 15.
I know Harold used to run weight up in the nose of his 19, but Im thinking the way SDBA's boat is laid out is probably a better way to go.. Driver way up forward, and run up nozzle. Im forced to run quite a bit of down to keep the nose down in my boat.Another idea would be to vent out some air, but thats major surgery. J. Bennett did show alot of interest in that idea though. :idea:
Off topic, but this stuff really never comes up anymore..

[sdpm]

I ran the boat last weekend at Modesto Reservoir, it is a true Blown Fuel Jet. I run a Jet-Away with a Wilder Pop-off valve. The boat is a Mach 1 tunnel with a Placecraft splash bottom modified by Jeff Bennett. The run I made on Saturday was 6 seconds total verified by the Altronics data collecting system. The first second, the launch controller ramped up the engine from 4000 to a max of 9000 RPM, then the last 5 seconds were WOT being limited at 9000 RPM. I run an Aggressor AA impeller, both pump and impeller were prepped by MPD.
Glad to hear you made it out. I sure would love to borrow your engine for a race or two in my hydro and see what she's got. :jawdrop: You have a very nice part there. Be safe and have fun. Neil

[sdba069]

All the Mirage jets were built in Texas. I rigged every one of them, except one and I ended up redoing it. I ran a 5 degree Papp intake in the white one and a Dominator SS intake in the yellow one. With the Pro Limited setup in the white boat, it liked about 2.5 degrees up on the nozzle and 2 degrees on the plate, all relative to the flats next to the intake. We actually put a drop keel in the mold for these boats. I modified and blueprinted the keels on both of my dragboats.

[jweeks123]

isn't the papp intake by meirsch, the popoff guy. what does your mirage weigh. what et did it run as a plj
jw

[BUSBY]

what was mr meirsch's response when you informed him about this
jw
Well, when we spoke to him, he said that there was nothing wrong with his set up. He spoke to us about how his son had used these same components on his TAD in NHRA and it would bench test fine.
Unfortunately, once water is introduced, debris would get into the pnuematic system and start to play havoc.
He did send his son Larry over to the house as he was local to look at the system and try to figure it out ... they blamed it on maintenence.
Well ... we maintain everything 90% better than most out there IMO ... checking everything after every pass ...
The valve itself is a perfect design, but it's not an original Miersch design ... it's a spin off of the Mills valve ... which works great, his plumbing is his original design and has problems ... problems that they state do not exist.
The basic idea is great on paper ... but once it's in place ... it cannot exhaust the psi fast enough, in fact, it back feeds the system and at times you'll have water spray out of the release button on the steering wheel.
I have gone through at least 6 of these at NJBA events with the same exact problem and fixed them ... 6 with the exact same problem? We switch out the plumbing and they work 100% of the time? Well ... that tells me it's not the valve, it's the plumbing.
These are supposed to be to help out with safety, and the way they come ... they either blow off 80% of the time too soon, not at all, or too slow. That's not good enough for me, sorry.

[pops1]

Why should blowoff's be mandatory in all jetboat's? Not all boats react the same, tunnel verses a Veehull, A Veehull will lay over and bow steer pitch the driver, A tunnel will go most likely straight. A ratchet I can see for boats over a 100mph, reguardless of hull design. just my 2 cents
SleekI say 90 is a good number for a pop off. Intake loads can soar to dynamic lift pressures, the pop off provides the only reliable/safe way to vacate that lifting pressure. The Ratchet will catch the abrupt torque or twist- such as instant motor shut off, yet cannot begin to deal with the spike going into a intake. The only safe way to get the pressure out of the intake/ Suction is to vacate the load. Both have a Great Functions yet very different. Not all hulls or set ups incurre this condition, A V Bottom takes greater pressure to lift then a tunnel (one on top of the water the other down in).
In almost every Blow Over excluding parts failure, the builder is aware of why and in the case of not completly knowing, he will follow thru to find and understand the condition. This is still Racing and has budget limits to the entree. That same person is fully aware of the exposure (or should be) of a Race Day. Race Associations must do there utmost to protect themself from Legal - Yet it also must find the medium affordable to the entree. Its a art act to walk between the lines of Safety Need and affordability. When the 8.0 Capsule rule went into effect with IHBA myself and several gave charley a rough time to gain our support for the Jet Boater. Blown Gas Jets were starting to pop off 140+ @ NJBA and 7.50 -7.30 ETs. To add 265 pounds to the frontal center and a cost of $15000.00 was going to be a killer to the sport within IHBA. Today Charley was right. Those that could run under the 8.0 mark de-tune to the hit the 8.0 brackets. One Racer we know made a first pass at a IHBA event & ran a 149 with a 7.51 ET. He said it looked like
his boat was on fire on the trailer comming back- a big group was running behind him waveing and shouting like crazy. He was told if he ever ran that quick without a capsule, he was out for one year. Today that 8.0 number is re-set to 7.70 and held by Dan Nelson in Blown Gas. Just a note Dan did pop off a 7.27-7.28 and 7.31 @ NJBA which all were overturned due to clocks or something. Safety is on you the Racer not the Assoc. or we all loose and its back to outlaw racing with no Diver or Medical support and all the rest you get with the Racing Assoc. Each will do a great job to try to see you meet there standards yet no capsule in the world will meet the full standards of the Insuring body- and flat out many will cheat the inspectors- Like tape there Kill Switches only to be found after the Hull Crashes into the side of a mountain after clearing Park Grounds, A 6' Fence, and a Road Way to end up going out in a Blaze including the foothills. To those that set the reasonable standards between Safety and Affordability "Great Tough Job" We have advanced and the Races are still going Strong. Ive been involved for 50+ years and say you have done one fine job! Do What You Must and Right will Follow as It has.
Dave Jones Aggressor Jets.

[JetHead]

9000 RPM on an Aggressor AA impeller
:2purples: :2purples:

[BUSBY]

I run an Aggressor AA impeller, both pump and impeller were prepped by MPD.
Aggressor and MPD in the same sentence? Wow. :supp:

[sdpm]

9000 rpm on a AA. What kind of speed should that be? :confused:

[DeputyDawg]

spdmcposted--9000 rpm on a AA. What kind of speed should that be?
I'm thinking at least a million!!!!

[sdpm]

I'm thinking at least a million!!!!
Damn Dawg, your right! I just computed all the math and varibles, and that is what came up! :p

[sdba069]

My white Mirage weighed 490# with the hole for the intake cut out, but no intake. The best PLJ legal pass it ever made was 9.19 @ 115. It normally ran high 9.20's to high 9.30's in 3000' to 4500' air. That was 4 years ago. The last year that we ran it, I did close to $10,000 worth of motor work to go out and blow out all the records, but managed instead to slow it down about 4 tenths. Never did figure out why. MPH was usually in the 111 to 113 range. That same motor in a 225" Undercover dragster on alky(flying toilet) runs 4.90 1/8th miles. It ran low 5.0's with the carb on gasoline.That's 476 CI with basically unported Pro 1's. Not sure about the Papp intake.

[DeputyDawg]

Hey BAE. what kind of speed were you running at 9 grand for five seconds? I am thinking you had to have covered at least a 1000ft or so under power! :2purples: :2purples:

[Squirtin Thunder]

All the Mirage jets were built in Texas. I rigged every one of them, except one and I ended up redoing it. I ran a 5 degree Papp intake in the white one and a Dominator SS intake in the yellow one. With the Pro Limited setup in the white boat, it liked about 2.5 degrees up on the nozzle and 2 degrees on the plate, all relative to the flats next to the intake. We actually put a drop keel in the mold for these boats. I modified and blueprinted the keels on both of my dragboats.
So tell me this, is Brad going to do any more ???
The Brad Collins Mirage Boats were the best. I heard the guy, Bob in Florida is not making the Jets. But the O/Bs have run better #s. I may be wrong !!!
thanks
Jim

[sdba069]

As far as I know, Mike Mullins who bought out Mirage, is still building the outboard hulls in the Winterhaven area. The guy who owns my white boat lives in the same neck of the woods. The jetboat molds got away from us and we don't know where they are now. If anyone has any info on them, I would like to know. Everyone assumed that I had them. I think I'll start a thread and try to find out where they are.

[Squirtin Thunder]

As far as I know, Mike Mullins who bought out Mirage, is still building the outboard hulls in the Winterhaven area. The guy who owns my white boat lives in the same neck of the woods. The jetboat molds got away from us and we don't know where they are now. If anyone has any info on them, I would like to know. Everyone assumed that I had them. I think I'll start a thread and try to find out where they are.
I would like a Mirage Ski Racer Jet The River Racer is cool but not much room not saying the Ski Racer is huge but you know it does have a bit more room. Did you guys ever build a Ski racer Jet ???
Thanks
Jim
I thought HB Mag did a deal on the around '97

[LakesOnly]

... it's easier to step into a Hydro and go much faster and safer on the same budget.
I'm sure there are a lot of different opinions here ... but this is mine. I set mine up to run BFJ with NJBA ... 3 years of runs and tuning to get where? Into a hydro ... running alcohol. :hammer2:
Didn't want to be the first to say it, but that's why I bought the hydro over the jet...safety. When I started looking for a hull to race, safety was an important issue. I looked at tunnel dragsters, then thought for racing I might want a prop boat, and then was convinced by others that I'm too much of a "daredevil" to step into a flattie and go racin'. I ultimately concluded that if these hydro boats are stable at 160mph, then perhaps I can set it up to be really safe in the 9-second class, continue to learn, and move up the brackets as as I get bored. Same boat will be safe at the faster speeds.
LO

[sdba069]

We only did 2 of the drag boats. the rest were ski racer tops, 2 front buckets a rear couch. As far the response above on the hydro/jet deal, it's all what you like. I compare it to the dragster/ doorslammer deal. I run a 7 second doorslammer and like to drive and tune jets. We run a 8 second jet and it's pretty cool since there are very few of them out there. I always tell the dragster guys, hell anybody can drive a dragster, same deal applies to the hydro's. Not really knocking the hydro's, just for the time being like the jets a little better. Right now, I own a Southwind tunnel, a Cole TR-4, and a Deaver hydro, not to mention a Hydrostream Vector, I'm so confused. Actually, just sold the Cole.

[Squirtin Thunder]

We only did 2 of the drag boats. the rest were ski racer tops, 2 front buckets a rear couch. As far the response above on the hydro/jet deal, it's all what you like. I compare it to the dragster/ doorslammer deal. I run a 7 second doorslammer and like to drive and tune jets. We run a 8 second jet and it's pretty cool since there are very few of them out there. I always tell the dragster guys, hell anybody can drive a dragster, same deal applies to the hydro's. Not really knocking the hydro's, just for the time being like the jets a little better. Right now, I own a Southwind tunnel, a Cole TR-4, and a Deaver hydro, not to mention a Hydrostream Vector, I'm so confused. Actually, just sold the Cole.
How would the Mirage Quarter Master do with a jet ???

[sdba069]

That was actually being considered. Biggest concern was how to keep it floating with a 750# BBC in it.I may get a wild hair one of these days and try it.

[Squirtin Thunder]

That was actually being considered. Biggest concern was how to keep it floating with a 750# BBC in it.I may get a wild hair one of these days and try it.
Now with that fairly wide rear I thought it would handle the wieght pritty good. But I have never had one or seen one in person.

[bp]

Setup is certainly one of the reasons a tunnel may or may not spin when a sudden decelleration occurs, I think that luck is probably the biggest player there. I've built and raced 2 Mirage drag boats since 1994 and feel they were the safest jets I've ever been around. I've owned and driven Cheyenne's, Eliminator's, Nordic's, Centurion's, and others and if I ever get back in a drag boat, it will be another Mirage, assuming I can buy the white one back. In the 5 years that I ran the last one, I lost power twice in the 110 mph range and it never even tried to turn. Anyone at Malvern about 4 years ago will attest to that. A friend of mine from Ok bought the first one that I built and ran it in the 10 second class for quite a while. Anyone who ever saw him race it, figured that it was a miracle that he never got tossed out of it. The boat was easily capable of running low 9's and that was how he wanted it tuned. He would run full throttle to wherever he thought he needed to and dump the gas. It would land the nose so hard that it looked like a crash from the spray of water. It never did anything weird. He actually won a NDBA championship like that. I believe the reason they didn't didn't tend to spin was because the center pod ran further forward and deeper at the front than the outside sponsons. The center pod would land first and tend to steer the boat straight instead of dropping one of the outside sponsons first and spinning that direction. Most of you tunnel jet guys already know, but i will mention it anyway, most of the time a tunnel jet will go left in a spin. The reason being, that when you slow down rapidly, the motor unloads the torque and drops the left side sponson which in turn grabs the water and turns left, immediately. Of course, the fact that you loose the ability to correct with the steering(thrust) doesn't help. All this said, I wouldn't bet anything that the Mirage won't spin, and will never try to find out, on purpose.
very much the way i feel about the southwind, and for a lot of the same reasons.
brian talks about a "hop", but that is either a lift or a climb. with the daytona, we fought a slight climb for a quite awhile, until all we had was a lift. we would often see unloads in the lights, but would always watch carefully for lift or climb. fastest we ever went was 135 at red bluff, and it lifted about 10' before the stripe, almost a perfect run, and it was a perfectly balanced lift, settling back in perfectly. often, when the boat would "lift", kz wouldn't even notice it (how'd it feel? uh, felt real real good.. check the video, lifted completed out, data shows complete unloads). but if it climbed some, he would notice it (how'd it feel? uh, pretty good? :cool: check the video, climbed out at 1000', data spikin up and down like a yoyo). leadfoot crazy drivers are always such a good source of information... :D WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED SOMEONE WATCHING THE THING THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT!
now, ex-crewchief drivers are much better sources of information :rolleyes: :D

[BUSBY]

very much the way i feel about the southwind, and for a lot of the same reasons.
brian talks about a "hop", but that is either a lift or a climb. with the daytona, we fought a slight climb for a quite awhile, until all we had was a lift. we would often see unloads in the lights, but would always watch carefully for lift or climb. fastest we ever went was 135 at red bluff, and it lifted about 10' before the stripe, almost a perfect run, and it was a perfectly balanced lift, settling back in perfectly. often, when the boat would "lift", kz wouldn't even notice it (how'd it feel? uh, felt real real good.. check the video, lifted completed out, data shows complete unloads). but if it climbed some, he would notice it (how'd it feel? uh, pretty good? :cool: check the video, climbed out at 1000', data spikin up and down like a yoyo). leadfoot crazy drivers are always such a good source of information... :D WHICH IS WHY YOU NEED SOMEONE WATCHING THE THING THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT!
now, ex-crewchief drivers are much better sources of information :rolleyes: :D
Keith was good ... is he still drivin' for Harold? I haven't seen him ... maybe I'm just too busy lately :confused:

[steelcomp]

now, ex-crewchief drivers are much better sources of information LOL...funny guy :notam:

[sdba069]

In all the pro jet classes, in order to be competitive, you had to hang em out on the edge. In the big tunnels like the Cheyenne, we always felt like it was a near perfect pass if it kicked the tail right in the lights. These hulls, and other ones like them, especially with drop keels in them, tend to run high intake pressures, which creates hydrodynamic lift and helps free up the hull, but when it gets to a point, simply lifts the intake out of the water.

[bp]

In all the pro jet classes, in order to be competitive, you had to hang em out on the edge. In the big tunnels like the Cheyenne, we always felt like it was a near perfect pass if it kicked the tail right in the lights. These hulls, and other ones like them, especially with drop keels in them, tend to run high intake pressures, which creates hydrodynamic lift and helps free up the hull, but when it gets to a point, simply lifts the intake out of the water.
the last race we ran it, we ran 7.71, .72, .71, .73, .75, .73, .71. a little lifting, but pretty much perfectly balanced.
intake pressures were fine, in fact intake pressure wouldn't increase at all after half track. that boat was on top at the starting line, and just ran. it was just a matter of finding the right way to keep it hooked without increasing the intake pressure. we were very close. only one other boat has been close.