pissed about gas price? get off your a** and contact your elected officials!

[ECeptor]

I just emailed everyone congressman and senator from my state. If everyone does the same, maybe we can budge the needle back down a little. It can't hurt.
http://www.house.gov/writerep/
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
+$5 gas in Atlanta is flat out criminal...and our states are next if we don't do something about it first!

[Blown 472]

Done it earlier today.

[ECeptor]

Don't forget to contact your states Attorney General and file a consumer protection & antitrust complaint.

[ECeptor]

So are you people gonna do something about this BS or just sit there and take it like a bunch of sheep?
Is there only 2 people on this entire board who have done something aside from bitch about the problem?

[Outnumbered]

Price caps and regulation are not the answer. You need to pressure congress to allow us to tap our own resources in Alaska and off-shore. Screw Green Peace and the Sierra Club. They are the real reason gas is so damn high! The only real fix for this problem is to increase supply. The Middle East and South America are a mess right now and we cannot rely on them for oil anymore. Don't buy into the price cap BS its just a bandaid with a selfish "what's in it for me" mentality.

[Dribble]

You're right it can't hurt... It wont help, but it can't hurt.

[ECeptor]

Price caps and regulation are not the answer. You need to pressure congress to allow us to tap our own resources in Alaska and off-shore. Screw Green Peace and the Sierra Club. They are the real reason gas is so damn high! The only real fix for this problem is to increase supply. The Middle East and South America are a mess right now and we cannot rely on them for oil anymore. Don't buy into the price cap BS its just a bandaid with a selfish "what's in it for me" mentality.
Don't just parrot what the news says...think for yourself! Read, research, listen then think and make your own conclusions.
BBTAHITI has it right - here's his quote:
The oil companies not only invented the game, they have perfected it (with a little govt help). Oil prices are not driven by demand, they're driven by futures. Reduce production to generate a "shortage" and it appears demand is high. Since the oil industry works on LIFO, the higher the price, the greater the profit. China didn't create the obscene profits for US oil companies. Face it people, we're being played..... and our elected officials are the (blindfolded) referees. It's time for regulation..... can you think of a BIGGER national security threat than higher (manipulated) prices driving us into a recession? Remember, when the govt tells you there's little inflation, they use CORE inflation figures (less energy). My bank acct doesn't work off core inflation.....

[HighRoller]

Damn, I hate to agree with ShockWave Bob but he's right. What would happen if you owned a business that became enormously successful and suddenly the government came down on you and limited the profits you could make? You know what that would mean? We'd be now living in Russia. I love it when the haters look to the government to "hurt" those who are more successful than they are so things will be "fair". You know how to really solve the problem? Either start your own oil company and beat them at their game, or stop buying their product. In America, we control businesses with our money and our feet, not the government.

[ECeptor]

Elected officials don't control the price of gas any more than they control the price of bread. Talk about pissing into the wind.
I'd rather go down fighting than just laydown and take it up the a**!
Tell me how +$5/gal gas in Atlanta is not price gouging (which is a criminal act)? If they are worried about over consumption then do what we did during WWII - ration! Go talk to a +70yr old and they can tell you what a coupon for essential commodities (food, fuel, etc.) is like and how it worked.
Letting a gas company quadruple thier profits off an act of God is explicitly illegal!

[HighRoller]

I will clarify one thing. I am definitely NOT in favor of gouging. The owners of that station need to be reported for that. The saddest thing I ever saw was in the hours after 9-11. Gas stations everywhere were racing outside to change their prices.

[CA Stu]

I will clarify one thing. I love hot diesel fuel. Heat that sh.it all the way up and I'll drink it like coffee!
Fixed

[Man-de-lone]

Diesel went up 6 cents a gallon here today. :notam:

[ECeptor]

I will clarify one thing. I am definitely NOT in favor of gouging. The owners of that station need to be reported for that. The saddest thing I ever saw was in the hours after 9-11. Gas stations everywhere were racing outside to change their prices.
The only difference between the gas prices shooting up and that is the magnatude. The 9-11 gouging was not unilateral....this is!

[CA Stu]

The only difference between the gas prices shooting up and that is the magnatude. The 9-11 gouging was not unilateral....this is!
"Magnitude". I'll bet Bush made you fail spelling.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Kaos1]

I just sent my email.

[ECeptor]

"Magnitude". I'll bet Bush made you fail spelling.
Thanks
CA Stu
I'm sorry, didn't realize Mrs. Smith my dear old dead English teach was resurrected and on the internet. I’ll write ‘magnitude’ 100x on the black board if it makes you feel better!
Got anything intelligent to add to the conversation or just being a smart ass?

[ECeptor]

I just sent my email.
atta boy!

[CA Stu]

I'm sorry, didn't realize Mrs. Smith my dear old dead English teach was resurrected and on the internet. I’ll write ‘magnitude’ 100x on the black board if it makes you feel better!
Got anything intelligent to add to the conversation or just being a smart ass?
I think the greatest weapon we have is our wallets.
In a free market economy, it seems the more government gets involved in an industry, the more expensive everything becomes.
Like I posted in one of the other 15 threads whining about gas prices, if we could all use 10% less gas, the price would decline in a hurry, I guarantee it.
You have a bike, like your avatar? What does it get, 45mpg? What did you drive to work? I'll bet it ain't a hybrid.
Supply and demand, baby.
Now go write "I will not misspell magnitude" 100 times.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Outnumbered]

Don't just parrot what the news says...think for yourself! Read, research, listen then think and make your own conclusions.
Parrot the news? WTF? What news show ever said that? I think you need to heed your own advice, Confucius :idea:

[ECeptor]

I think the greatest weapon we have is our wallets.
In a free market economy, it seems the more government gets involved in an industry, the more expensive everything becomes.
Like I posted in one of the other 15 threads whining about gas prices, if we could all use 10% less gas, the price would decline in a hurry, I guarantee it.
You have a bike, like your avatar? What does it get, 45mpg? What did you drive to work? I'll bet it ain't a hybrid.
Supply and demand, baby.
Now go write "I will not misspell magnitude" 100 times.
Thanks
CA Stu
First off, I only WISH I had the bike in my avatar. It's a one-off show bike (Honda NAS).
Second, I do have a bike...a VFR (red Honda, but not on the same planet as the NAS!) and I commute on it every day. You are dead right - I get 45mpg.
Third, I agree 100% about voting with our wallets is the greatest power. Tonight I canceled my weekend plans and will use the 100 gallons of gas I have on hand (in truck, boat, and in gas cans) to get me and my household through hopefully a full month without going to the pump. It will suck, but I feel strongly it is my best option.
Funny - 6 years of college, a Bachelors and a Masters and I still can't spell...but then again have you ever known an engineer who could?
BTW - I appreciate you making this an intelligent thread rather than just another of HB's famous pissing matches!

[Boozer]

Why not just switch to bio diesel? You say f*ck you to the oil companies and the a$$holes lining their pockets on oil money.

[ECeptor]

Parrot the news? WTF? What news show ever said that? I think you need to heed your own advice, Confucius :idea:
Here's a point of view alternative to yours from another thread:
BBTAHITI's quote:
The oil companies not only invented the game, they have perfected it (with a little govt help). Oil prices are not driven by demand, they're driven by futures. Reduce production to generate a "shortage" and it appears demand is high. Since the oil industry works on LIFO, the higher the price, the greater the profit. China didn't create the obscene profits for US oil companies. Face it people, we're being played..... and our elected officials are the (blindfolded) referees. It's time for regulation..... can you think of a BIGGER national security threat than higher (manipulated) prices driving us into a recession? Remember, when the govt tells you there's little inflation, they use CORE inflation figures (less energy). My bank acct doesn't work off core inflation.....
You very well might be right...I'm no expert. But what this guy says makes sense. Suppy shortages do not drive up prices. Demand does. Demand for essential commodities like gas and food have historically been kept in check by competition. Given the nationwide immediate price hike the pricing is being fixed and not driven by normal fair market practices. If this is indeed true, I believe it is illegal and would not be affected by the source of the oil. Opening up alternative sources (i.e. Alaska) would only serve to lower the cost to the oil companies who would surely not lower thier price dollar for dollar. They would take the difference and put it in their pockets!

[ECeptor]

Why not just switch to bio diesel? You say f*ck you to the oil companies and the a$$holes lining their pockets on oil money.
If my 454 in my boat and the 350 in my truck would burn it I'd be a happy man this weekend!!!

[haulina29]

Oil is sold on speculation futures not supply and demand has been done that way for years . A man made shortage will drive the price thru the roof .The oil companys are doing what Enron did to California and the gonna get away with it .

[Boozer]

Oil is sold on speculation futures not supply and demand has been done that way for years . A man made shortage will drive the price thru the roof .The oil companys are doing what Enron did to California and the gonna get away with it .
The government would NEVER allow such a thing would it???? :sleeping: :confused: :sleeping:

[mmered8299]

Watching O'Riley today, and he said it cost OPEC $4 to produce a barrel of oil. Then turn it around and sell it for $74. I wish I had that kind of profit margin in my business.

[pleasantcat]

ok guys.... im gonna throw a nuclear log on the fire...
go to google or your favorite search engine. type in..(your favorite fuel company name) 2004 profit reports.
i'm thinking $1.75 a gallon is very very fair!!! :mad:
example...http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7563-2004Oct28.html
oooooh this stings

[HighRoller]

I don't know. Has an investigation on price fixing in the oil industry ever even reached committee? No? Guess we have our answer. Oil money is hard to give up when you're in office.

[pleasantcat]

I don't know. Has an investigation on price fixing in the oil industry ever even reached committee? No? Guess we have our answer. Oil money is hard to give up when you're in office.
it slides......right in the hip pocket

[haulina29]

We need to pass emergency bills to by pass liberal regulation and flood the market with our own oil and bankrupt these guys.Id pay six right now for all American crude and love every minute watching them sink .

[ECeptor]

Supposedly, worldwide proved oil reserves will only last another 40 years or so at our CURRENT consumption (worldwide). How long do you think Alaskan oil reserves will last the world's largest consumer of crude oil?
I don't know how long oil is going to last...I'd need to read up on that more. I've read too many different numbers from different sources.
Do we need to cut back? Yes. Is this rapid ramp up blamed on a hurricane the right way to get there. No.

[ECeptor]

i have some old coupons,wonder if their any good? :cool:
Sell 'um on ebay for gas money!

[ECeptor]

Watching O'Riley today, and he said it cost OPEC $4 to produce a barrel of oil. Then turn it around and sell it for $74. I wish I had that kind of profit margin in my business.
The real question is who in America allows this? I know the good my company buys from all over the world does not have that kind of profit margin!
People in the states get a cut of that $70/barrel...and we are paying for it!

[Bt273]

Price caps and regulation are not the answer. You need to pressure congress to allow us to tap our own resources in Alaska and off-shore. Screw Green Peace and the Sierra Club. They are the real reason gas is so damn high! The only real fix for this problem is to increase supply. The Middle East and South America are a mess right now and we cannot rely on them for oil anymore. Don't buy into the price cap BS its just a bandaid with a selfish "what's in it for me" mentality.
You gotta get with that!!! Does it not just PISS you off going down the freeway and there is some idiot holding a lane up,and you finally get around them and they got the" save the world stickers" and I support green peace,and they are driving some hunk of crap oil spewing,smoking smog filling air pos,because they don't want to work and can't afford anything but pot,cause they are out trying to save the nat that is going to splat on your windsheild in about three seconds? two words here" I agree"!

[ECeptor]

The price to produce a barrel of oil in the Middle East is much cheaper than in the US (or most other places for that matter) because they drill a hole and oil comes out. It doesn't work that way here.
OPEC is not selling a product, like a loaf of bread, they are selling a non-renewable resourse that they happen to own the most of and the most easily produced.
If California decided to start selling Sequoias, do you think we would sell them for what it cost to grow them and chop them down?
I don't expect the gas companies to sell at cost. We need them to be healty (i.e. profitable) companies. However, I don't expect them to colaborate and eliminate a competitive environment.
My brother just had a well drilled on his land...started pumping last weekend. His problem is how to get his Suburban and Powerstroke to run on crude!

[DaveA]

ECeptor,
I remember the small oil producers capping off wells right and left out in KS in the mid to late Eighties because the cost to extract was higher than the per-barrel prices at the time. Below $14/bbl if I recall. Pump motors and jacks were sitting on the dealers' lots rusting away due to no demand. The refineries in Augusta and Eldorado, among others in the area were closing because of poor margins and assaults by the EPA and their treehuggin' cheerleaders. Even the big refinery up on N Hydraulic and 21st was being slammed constantly by the environmentalists and the newspaper over groundwater worries, etc. Is it even still operating??
Anybody in the oil business was either jobhunting or about to get axed. I had the opportunity to rent a huge house up in Tallgrass for $300/mo plus utilities just to cover part of the guy's mortgage while he was in Houston trying to keep his company afloat. I had just moved to Wichita (1986), and was like, asking myself..."What am I doing here?? This place is goin' down the tubes!"
Of course, all this happened about ten years after we had gas lines, shortages, and the infamous windfall oil profits tax. OPEC became a hated household word, and we watched the price go out the roof.
I recall May, 1979 going to FLA on vacation and being incensed that gas was costing me $.69.9/gal. down there. Plenty of it...but it was high!
This trip down memory lane was brought to you by DaveA.

[HighRoller]

Supposedly, worldwide proved oil reserves will only last another 40 years or so at our CURRENT consumption (worldwide). How long do you think Alaskan oil reserves will last the world's largest consumer of crude oil?
Those are the "reserves", Bob. That's the amount we have stored for emergencies like this. That's not what's in the ground. What's left in the ground is staggering. I've heard estimates of between a thousand and 10,000 years worth. We as a planet use a billion barrels every ten days right now.

[sorry dog]

Those are the "reserves", Bob. That's the amount we have stored for emergencies like this. That's not what's in the ground. What's left in the ground is staggering. I've heard estimates of between a thousand and 10,000 years worth. We as a planet use a billion barrels every ten days right now.
I wish.
That's known oil to be in the ground yet to be extracted.
There's probably a lot more but it's starting to get a lot more expensive to get at.

[HighRoller]

I wish.
That's known oil to be in the ground yet to be extracted.
There's probably a lot more but it's starting to get a lot more expensive to get at.
According to?? The oil companies? You know, the oil companies and environmental interests should be mortal enemies. BUT, every time GreenPeace says something bad about oil the oil companies profit!! Oil is hard to find blah blah blah....Cha Ching...Oil is hurting our environment...Cha Ching

[Outnumbered]

Oil is sold on speculation futures not supply and demand has been done that way for years . A man made shortage will drive the price thru the roof .The oil companys are doing what Enron did to California and the gonna get away with it .
Well who do you think is controlling the supply? OPEC is not exactly under our control. They have us by the balls. We need to cut the connection and tap our own resources. Then we can call the oil companies on their bluff when prices get out of hand. But when OPEC cuts the supply and raises the price ber bbl over $70 then what do you think is going to happen to fuel prices?

[haulina29]

OUTNUMBERED if you actually read my post you actually repeated what I just said . Is there still a power shortage did we build any new plants ? not in my area . This is a man made shortage to get pricing , up many on here dont know how oil is purchased read there posts , and when you tell them they still dont get it .Its traded on speculation it s a game and were paying for it . Supply and demand has nothing to do with the price of oil . The man made shortage is at the unrefined end not the user we have plenty of refined product.

[HighRoller]

But the price of a barrel of oil hasn't gone over $70 yet. As a matter of fact it's about $62 right now. The FUTURES price is $80 plus, which means several people have a vested interest in driving the price up. Futures return much more than the actual price because they are priced on leveraged speculation, which is based on the "anticipated" price of oil. Now, what would make the "Anticipated" price on oil go up? A shortage, whether perceived or real. Bad News about the supply chain. A coup in Venezuela. A refinery fire. An OPEC meeting. Every time we hear these events the oil futures spike. And the news outlets report the futures price, but neglect to use the word "futures". In short, bad news is good news for oil prices. And when was the last time we heard any good news about oil? Sure, OPEC grandstanded about their million barrel a day increase. This was after about a hundred years of decreases. Sure, we are dependant on foreign oil. BUT, they depend on us too. The Saudis cannot survive without us. All it takes is one President with balls to drop our gas prices back to a buck a gallon.

[haulina29]

High roller you are correct open the tap and start pumping all we got and flood the market . Prices would drop over nite .

[haulina29]

Outnumbered one advantage we have with oil is we have it as you stated, with power we were ****ed . But yes I agree open the tap it would end it .

[ECeptor]

ECeptor,
I remember the small oil producers capping off wells right and left out in KS in the mid to late Eighties because the cost to extract was higher than the per-barrel prices at the time. Below $14/bbl if I recall. Pump motors and jacks were sitting on the dealers' lots rusting away due to no demand. The refineries in Augusta and Eldorado, among others in the area were closing because of poor margins and assaults by the EPA and their treehuggin' cheerleaders. Even the big refinery up on N Hydraulic and 21st was being slammed constantly by the environmentalists and the newspaper over groundwater worries, etc. Is it even still operating??
Anybody in the oil business was either jobhunting or about to get axed. I had the opportunity to rent a huge house up in Tallgrass for $300/mo plus utilities just to cover part of the guy's mortgage while he was in Houston trying to keep his company afloat. I had just moved to Wichita (1986), and was like, asking myself..."What am I doing here?? This place is goin' down the tubes!"
Of course, all this happened about ten years after we had gas lines, shortages, and the infamous windfall oil profits tax. OPEC became a hated household word, and we watched the price go out the roof.
I recall May, 1979 going to FLA on vacation and being incensed that gas was costing me $.69.9/gal. down there. Plenty of it...but it was high!
This trip down memory lane was brought to you by DaveA.
I remember (barely) the 80's oil boom then bust. Eldorado is still going strong, refinery on Hydrualic has long been shutdown. Tallgrass for $300/month? I'd jump on that in a second! Maybe the prices needed to go up to make the industry viable, but not this much and not this fast!

[ECeptor]

...Sure, we are dependant on foreign oil. BUT, they depend on us too. The Saudis cannot survive without us. All it takes is one President with balls to drop our gas prices back to a buck a gallon.
A-freakin'-men !!!

[Freak]

Proved reserves are estimated quantities that analysis of geologic and engineering data demonstrates with reasonable certainty are recoverable under existing economic and operating conditions.
Definition stolen directly from the DOE's website. You are thinking of the strategic reserve, which is 676M barrels. The US's total proved reserves are just over 21B barrels. The worldwide proved reserves are just over a trillion barrels, which, at worldwide current consumption, is enough for 40 years.
Edited to add: They don't think we'll "run out" of crude oil, estimates are as high as another trillion barrels of undiscovered crude. It will just become much harder and much more costly to recover.
Well written bob. The key words here are CURRENT CONSUMPTION. As you all know our economic system does not work if we do not grow , which will increase comsumption. Oil will be around in 40yrs but we will not be living like we are today or using it like we are today.
High energy prices are here to stay, in spite of campaigns like the Chevron ads, mainstream media attention or high petrol prices. This will not go away anytime soon, this is not like the 70's and we probably will not be able to maintain our exuberant life-style as it is today.

[Freak]

Good for you. I did the same - all the while my friends laughing at me. Now they are following suit. The problem I see is many people are not going to give up their stuff "they are entitled you know" without a fight.
My mother for example: She walks around in shorts and a tee shirt in the middle of winter (we have snow here) but bitches about the heating bill. When I say put some clothes on she says "why I have always dressed like this". :notam: - Not a clue -
So we all now know we have 40yrs left. Now if your political figure heads make fuel cheap again. What do you think would happen 40yrs from now? Everthing would be just fine? Oil gives you the life you live today.
We need higher prices to spur alternatives. Higher prices are here to stay. Get over it and make the changes needed. The world is changing.

[Sportin' Wood]

Higher prices are here to stay. Get over it and make the changes needed. The world is changing.
Just driving 55 mph will conserve fuel. Traffic is still moving 80-90 on the 15 through Elsinore this morning.

[haulina29]

And in six months this will be over prices will be down and we will forget about it for another 15 years . And unless I missed it somewhere in the US we have 50 or so years worth that they are not sure how to get out of the ground .

[Freak]

And in six months this will be over prices will be down and we will forget about it for another 15 years . And unless I missed it somewhere in the US we have 50 or so years worth that they are not sure how to get out of the ground .
Let me see if I have this straight. You know there is a shit stream up ahead and your not interested in finding a paddle?

[Dave C]

Get used to high gas prices. The price will stay in the high $2 range for the next few years. Reason low supply of "refined product" due to government regulation and lack of real market competition. Its our fault, everyone that complains about creation of new refineries in the U.S. is part of the problem (NIMBY)
You guys talking about supply and demand and futures need to get your nomenclature correct:
The price of refined product is still established by an open market system that has two compenents:
1) Supply and demand of crude oil. Future prices are established on an open auction market (chicago & NY merc) Demand drives these futures just as much as supply does. Oil producing nations are the only ones that affect the price of crude by restricting supply. So thank OPEC for $60 a barrel oil that is expected to stay that high for more than a year.
2) supply and demand of refined product. These future prices are also established by an auction market. Demand still drives the price. This is where price manipulation by restricting supply can occur. However, the manipulation could not continue if we have true competition in the market place. But who is ultimately responsible for the restriction. The people ARE! Every time a rules is passed prohibiting creation of a new refinery. Why is California not allowed to buy/sell gas across state lines like other states? Why hasn't Cali built a refinery in 25 years?
Using LIFO inventory is a common practice used by many companies. When prices rise, the higher expense results in lower EPS. So the profits go down. (I think you meant to use FIFO in your rant!) ;)
Prices of commodities are always volatile. Therefore expect drastic changes in prices and the profits of the companies that create gas. What we should expect from them is a reinvestment of those profits into more production.
What do we need to do?
1) Increase incentives for production of refined product ONSHORE. 30% of the refined product is made offshore. That tells us that oil companies cannot reinvest their earnings by building new onshore refineries.
2) Prohibit consolidation of oil refining companies. We need to encourage more competition not less.
3) simultaneously increase fuel efficiency because we all know that no one here is gonna give up driving anytime soon! ;)

[BBTAHITI]

Using LIFO inventory is a common practice used by many companies. When prices rise, the higher expense results in lower EPS. So the profits go down. (I think you meant to use FIFO in your rant!) ;)
Nope, meant LIFO. In an escalating market, last inventory pricing is used as the base cost with the difference (to existing supplies) being profit. In a descending market LIFO would lower EPS. I never said LIFO wasn't a common practice, but as with any accounting practice, when manipulation is allowed, it will be abused to the companies advantage. Futures are driven as much by emotion (as is most of the stock market), as anything.
Call it a rant, call it whatever, but supply and demand does not control pricing of this commodity any longer. The bottom line is with the dependency we have upon oil in this country, this economy cannot afford to be driven into recession by rampant manipulation.

[haulina29]

Supply and demand of refined product does not regulate the price of crude man made shortages of crude on the wholesale will , take the speculation or futures out of the picture and refined product would be cut in half , What happened to the electricty shortage ? I guess it fixed it self ?

[haulina29]

DaveC your three items are correct another item would be to purchase back or start new companys in the US because there is only one US owned company left .

[Jeanyus]

Reguardless of all the rumors about why gas is so high, here is the reason gas is priced the way it is. The problem is you. You use gas, and if you have a big boat and a big truck, you guzzle gas.
Gas at the pump (like everthing else) is priced at what the market will bear. If consumers stop buying it it will go down.
Am I the only one that finds it ironic, that people who consume the most gas are the ones who complain about the price.
I have a gas guzzeling truck and boat. Here's what I do shut my mouth, and open my wallet.
When I get tired of that I'll get a Geo, or electric car. "shut up and go boating"

[FHI-prez]

The sad truth is that this was inevitable. Let's just say that certain steps were taking by the people and the govt and the price of oil dropped to $1/gal tomorrow. What exactly would that solve. Well in the short term we could continue on with life as normal and for some much more money in our bank accounts. This would at best be very temporary. Now I agree the oil companies make WAY too much money, but that is the nature of the beast, they got what we need and have the power to keep their prices at a rate to make them HUGE profits they run our govt not the other way around.
What incentive would we have to find alternative renewable fuel sources if the price of gas was cheap ($1/gal)? None. We'd keep consuming like never before, all the while oblivious to the consequences. Would you be tempted to lower your consumption if gas was cheap? No. No one would. We'd continue buying bigger vehicals, drive till our hearts content and go on like nothing can happen to us.
I think the argument can be easily made that we are the only creature on this planet that hurts the planet. No other creature has the capability of destroying our own enviroment. This planet is not better because we are here. We contaminate our atmosphere, pollute our water, and consume it's natural resources, all the while not giving one single possitive thing back to the enviroment.
High gas prices, more precisely extremely high gas prices will be the only way we will persue renewable forms of energy that does not affect our enviroment. This bullshit of not buying gas for one day is nothing short of retarded. I think a 5 year old could find the fault in that. Saying that all we need is a president with balls (btw I cant stand GW for the record) is nothing short of retarded. It's obvious that there is a much larger problem on the horizon than high gas prices. If anything low gas prices would only bring about the true inherent problem with burning fossil fuels to the surface quicker, and with no alternative in place when we do get to the point of using more fuel than we produce.
As much as I hate to think this way, we are a plague to this planet by any deffinition of the word. If we don't pull our heads out of our collective ass soon, we will soon find out what happens when the plague runs out of places to infect. This planet is building up an immunity to us, the ony problem is that when the planet "decides" to fight back, we will see how tiny we are in comparison. (BTW I'm not talking about this hurricane, this was only a natural event, it's happened before and it will happen again.)
Just think for a moment. We are taking HUGE amounts of stuff (oil, gas, minerals) right out from under the earths surface. Then we take some of this stuff, combust it and pollute the atmosphere with it. This of course is very detrimental to the planet, but because of the size of the planet, this can happen for a given amount of time with little noticable effects. How long this given time period is doesn't matter. Sooner or later it will have a noticeable effect.
There is no viable solution on the table. We can't sit down and postulate for 5 minutes how to fix a problem that has been years in the process of developing! The course of human technology has surpassed our ability to understand the full affect of that technology. If something makes our life more fun or easier, we do it, then deal with the consequences later. Well, welcome to "later".
Nick

[Dave C]

agreed!
DaveC your three items are correct another item would be to purchase back or start new companys in the US because there is only one US owned company left .

[FHI-prez]

Goddammit, one more thing. :idea: The more "advanced" we get the more vulnerable we become. If Katrina would have happend 300 years ago, umm... who cares. It would have been something most of the people only heard about weeks or even months later if at all. It would have had ZERO affect on world economy/trade. But we are so advanced now, that if anything happens anywhere, we all feel it. We've come so far. LOL

[Dave C]

Agreed. I meant for refining, not exploration. but once you get the crude onshore it still needs to be refined and distributed!
Good point. The reason OPEC oil is so cheap is because its easy to get because its under sand. easy to drill through.
Canada (under rock) and the US (under deep water) have major untapped supplies but they are very difficult to get and therefore much more expensive.
The problem is, we can't produce crude oil for a tenth of the cost of OPEC. We tried and failed, when we were producing crude at a $2 a barrel loss.

[CA Stu]

Just think for a moment. We are taking HUGE amounts of stuff (oil, gas, minerals) right out from under the earths surface. Then we take some of this stuff, combust it and pollute the atmosphere with it. This of course is very detrimental to the planet, but because of the size of the planet, this can happen for a given amount of time with little noticable effects. How long this given time period is doesn't matter. Sooner or later it will have a noticeable effect.
The part about being "detrimental to the planet" is pure hogwash. The earth was here billions of years before man, will be here after we're extinct. It might be unhealthy for humans to breathe pollution, but Mother Earth doesn't give a hoot, man.
If you read the paper, there is a well written article (from the New York Times) in the Press Enterprise today, and it illustrates just how ridiculous the dogmatic fearmongering of "global warming" being responsible for Katrina really is.
The article cites the fact that there were more numerous and more intense storms in the first part of the 20th century than in recent years.
While some people feel empowered and intelligent by taking responsibility for the weather, I find that attitude of "look at me, master of the world!" to be ignorant, shallow, and arrogant.
Truth is, nature always wins. We can no more control the weather that we can stop the tide, King Canute.
In closing, I wonder if any of us are old enough to remember the hysteria of "Global Cooling" that was so prevalent in the early 70's? People were stocking up on fur coats and preparing for the next ice age.
Guess what. "Scientists" aren't always right.
They weren't then, and they aren't now.
Nature is way more powerful then man.
Whether you are enlightened enough to understand it, or man enough to admit it, it is a fact.
We are slaves to nature, not masters of it.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS My bike gets 53 mpg. ;)

[meaniam]

Damn, I hate to agree with ShockWave Bob but he's right. What would happen if you owned a business that became enormously successful and suddenly the government came down on you and limited the profits you could make? You know what that would mean? We'd be now living in Russia. I love it when the haters look to the government to "hurt" those who are more successful than they are so things will be "fair". You know how to really solve the problem? Either start your own oil company and beat them at their game, or stop buying their product. In America, we control businesses with our money and our feet, not the government.
i think today is a good day to open my own oil production and refinery buissiness. what do you guys think should i open it in riverside county or orange county. (im being a smart ass) beat them at there own game (looting the oil refinery) or stop buying there product. (hum that would work) (if i wanted to starve) so maybe if the goverment put a little more of a squeeze on alt fuel for vehicals. but no thier dumb asses thinking a epa bill that requires a dodge caravan, and similar vehicals be required to reach 23mpg is the fix. (what is that a 1mpg increase) our own president is a little shady. and now he is trying to talk tough with suadi arabia. check out the show he sings midway down this article.http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CNBCTV/Articles/Dispatches/P128021.asp
see ya
mike

[Freak]

The part about being "detrimental to the planet" is pure hogwash. The earth was here billions of years before man, will be here after we're extinct. It might be unhealthy for humans to breathe pollution, but Mother Earth doesn't give a hoot, man.
If you read the paper, there is a well written article (from the New York Times) in the Press Enterprise today, and it illustrates just how ridiculous the dogmatic fearmongering of "global warming" being responsible for Katrina really is.
The article cites the fact that there were more numerous and more intense storms in the first part of the 20th century than in recent years.
While some people feel empowered and intelligent by taking responsibility for the weather, I find that attitude of "look at me, master of the world!" to be ignorant, shallow, and arrogant.
Truth is, nature always wins. We can no more control the weather that we can stop the tide, King Canute.
In closing, I wonder if any of us are old enough to remember the hysteria of "Global Cooling" that was so prevalent in the early 70's? People were stocking up on fur coats and preparing for the next ice age.
Guess what. "Scientists" aren't always right.
They weren't then, and they aren't now.
Nature is way more powerful then man.
Whether you are enlightened enough to understand it, or man enough to admit it, it is a fact.
We are slaves to nature, not masters of it.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS My bike gets 53 mpg. ;)
Ok
One example: Dead spots in the seas from pollution. Now explain to me how we are not affecting nature again?

[Dave C]

actually I heard if you drop something it comes spraying out.....
"swimming pools - movie stars" ;)
In the Middle East, they just drill a hole and crude oil sprays out. :D

[CA Stu]

Ok
One example: Dead spots in the seas from pollution. Now explain to me how we are not affecting nature again?
One small area, sure. I can go pour a quart of oil on my yard and kill some of the grass, but did I affect nature as a whole? Of course not.
Nature is pretty damn resilient.
Betcha that dead spot grows back in time.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Dave C]

Since you have it all figured out, you better get down the NY mercantile exchanges (where they trade oil and gas futures) and tell those traders that what they are doing is a fraud and to go home! ;)
Call it a rant, call it whatever, but supply and demand does not control pricing of this commodity any longer. The bottom line is with the dependency we have upon oil in this country, this economy cannot afford to be driven into recession by rampant manipulation.

[Dave C]

OK, what some poeple are doing is a normal human reactionary thing. Blame someone. If some people would stop being lazy and dig just a bit further you they would find out something different.
We cannot understate the importance of the port of Louisiana in the movement of all commodities, including oil. It is the 1st largest port in the U.S. The hurricane hit 6 of the largest 15 ports in the U.S.
All the ports are shut down so major commodities are gonna be short.
Another thing.
1/3 of all U.S. crude is produced in the gulf and is pumped onshore near Louisiana, Texas & Alabama.
The midwestern and eastern U.S. gets between 50-70% of its refined gas via pipeline from major refiners in Texas, Louisiana and Alabama which is shipped via pipeline to NY, Chicago, NJ, Atlanta, etc. There are 8 major refineries in Louisana. There was 5 days suppy on hand when all the major refiners where shut down for the hurricane. As of today, they cannot turn those refiners back on because of either damage or power outage. It takes 13 days to ship oil from Lousiana to NYC. It may be a few more days before they can begin refining again.
I hate to say it, there is gonna be a LEGITIMATE shortage of refined product. And some stocks may have to be moved from California to the midwest.
Now I know that you want to blame someone, so blame the hurricane.

[haulina29]

Shockwave you are correct we could not produce raw crude for a fraction of what they do but if we did at any cost and flooded the Market Oil futures would fall to junk status because you would eliminate a man made shortage for another 10 years or so ? It doesnt have to be in a tank it just has to be ready to pump and the futures market would be toast .

[Dave C]

hmmm, I guess they teach GAAP accounting a little different on your planet.
Here is how they do it on this planet (per the AICPA):
FIFO- first cost inventoried are the first costs transferred to COGS. Ending inventory includes most recent costs. In periods of rising prices, FIFO results in highest ending inventory, lowest cost of goods sold and highest net income.
LIFO - exact opposite of FIFO. Last costs inventoried (the highest) are the first cost transferred to COGS. In periods of rising prices, LIFO results in lowest inventory, highest COGS, and lowest net income.
But this is mearly an academic exercise because GAAP accounting is mandated by law and has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the prices of commodities.
Hey but WTF do I know
DaveC <------ CPA
Nope, meant LIFO. In an escalating market, last inventory pricing is used as the base cost with the difference (to existing supplies) being profit. In a descending market LIFO would lower EPS. I never said LIFO wasn't a common practice, but as with any accounting practice, when manipulation is allowed, it will be abused to the companies advantage. .

[BBTAHITI]

I never said I had all the answers, and you do have a few valid points. There will be a shortage due to the storm, and that shortage will raise prices. I'm also sure there will also be an INCREASE in revenue, and profits this quarter not withstanding lower production levels. There are too many inconsistencies in the industry to just accept the press releases as gospel. I'm sure diesel owners want to know why diesel is more than gas. Is it higher demand than gas? Is more refining required? Additives?
All I'm saying is we can't count on the government to address these (and more) issues without a little motivation.

[haulina29]

Shockwave Bob I agree with you and I am for free trade but this ass reaming needs to be stopped , What would the oil companys do if the President said no oil will hit our shores over 60 a barrell , My personal feeling is it would come here for 60 a barrell no way they are going to turn it off they would go broke .Try for a month and see what happens ?

[Dave C]

I never said it did.
Since we import 60% of our crude THAT supply is determined by someone other than the U.S. Thank OPEC, Russia, Venezuela for this.
Besides the cost crude represents only a portion of the cost of the final product. Costs also include refining, distribution & "reasonable profit."
Cutting futures trading will not lower anything. Futures trading is used by a commodities trader as a hedge against price changes in volatile commodities. Hedging is a strategy that give assurance of prices of needed commodities when they are needed in the future.
A shortage of supply, whatever its "cause" is a separate circumstance not related to futures trading.
Supply and demand of refined product does not regulate the price of crude man made shortages of crude on the wholesale will , take the speculation or futures out of the picture and refined product would be cut in half , What happened to the electricty shortage ? I guess it fixed it self ?

[Freak]

One small area, sure. I can go pour a quart of oil on my yard and kill some of the grass, but did I affect nature as a whole? Of course not.
Nature is pretty damn resilient.
Betcha that dead spot grows back in time.
Thanks
CA Stu
Sure it will grow back.
Sure over a few hundred or thousand years.
I think perhaps the governor of California, Arnold Swartzeneggar put it best when he declared loudly and on camera :
“The debate is over. Global Warming is a reality. Now we have to find ways to deal with it.”

[meaniam]

switching to alt fuel, would switch the game around. honda and toyota are way ahead of chevy dodge and ford as far as hybrid vehicals and other alt. if chevy or ford made availble a midsize, and a compact hybrid for 15- 20k trucks that were caple of 250 lbs of tourqe or better for 18 to 32k demand would be high. and depenancy on oil would fall every year that went by.
another thing that was said here on the thread was that oil is difficult to drill in the us.
but then we are being told it is gettingharder to extract oil from the ground in the middle east.
then some one here states that in the middle east that pretty much dig a hole and you will find oil in the middle east.
so which is it.
and if the cost keeps rising to extract oil in middle east. then wouldnt the price to extract us oil. be narrowing. if the oil extracting began in the us then eventually the price in middle east would surpass ours. unless its all bullshit.
cows and other animals have proven to deplete the ozone layer. it is a complete circle. and earth will take car of itself.
the hurricane itself was not so devestating. remember it was dropped to cat4 once on land it moved quickly. the devestation came from levy brakes and pump failures due to lack of investing. weather in maintance or replacing. if the levys would have held it wouldnt have been so bad. the storm would have gone and done its thing and we would be coutining on

[Dave C]

I knew it, Blame Canada. Lets invade! LOL
The Venezulian dictator hates us, Russia would be our savior but instead they are selling to china. We are screwed on these two accounts.
A few things. The single largest importing country of crude oil to the US is Canada. Second, Venezuela is one of two member nations that belong to OPEC not located in the Persian Gulf. Russian is responsible for less than 2% of our crude oil imports.

[Dave C]

we meant ME oil was easier to get compared to the U.S. and Canada.
But its not static. both will getting more difficult but at what rate?
you're premonition would come true if the middle east were to become more difficult faster than the U.S. becomes more difficult.
I hope we can get out of the middle east some day. But unfortunately it probably won't happen anytime soon :frown:
Also one thing to note about fuel efficiency, it cannot by itself solve the problem but it will help. The fuel efficiency standards on average must exceed the population growth of new cars.
I note in California that in 10 years our demand for gas went up 18%, the population growth was probably more than that, so the difference was made up for by increases in fuel efficiency. So increased fuel efficiency helped but did not solve the problem.
I love my gas guzzler but if you want to sell me a gas guzzler with 10% better gas mileage, I will buy it!! ;)
another thing that was said here on the thread was that oil is difficult to drill in the us.
but then we are being told it is gettingharder to extract oil from the ground in the middle east.
then some one here states that in the middle east that pretty much dig a hole and you will find oil in the middle east.
so which is it.
and if the cost keeps rising to extract oil in middle east. then wouldnt the price to extract us oil. be narrowing. if the oil extracting began in the us then eventually the price in middle east would surpass ours.

[BBTAHITI]

I'm glad to hear that the $6 BILLION tax break Congress passed in the energy bill will be used for domestic exploration :burningm: That goes along well with the 32 percent increase in earnings Exxon Mobil has over last year ($7.6 billion), and BP saw a profit increase of 38 percent, totaling $6.7 billion.
Is there any doubt the oil companies will go back to congress for additional breaks to replace the damaged/missing platforms? What about the oil reserves many companies bought at $10 to $25 a barrel? BIG profit. I have no problem with profit. I DO have a problem with rape.
There are ALOT of problems with this country's energy policies, and it won't be straightened out over night. Wouldn't it be better (long term) to develop other (renewable) energy sources? I'm sure there are lobbyists that would get behind that :notam:

[Dave C]

thats the difference I don't have a problem with the rape, as you call it, as long as it is reinvested rape! :notam:

[FHI-prez]

The part about being "detrimental to the planet" is pure hogwash. The earth was here billions of years before man, will be here after we're extinct. It might be unhealthy for humans to breathe pollution, but Mother Earth doesn't give a hoot, man.
If you read the paper, there is a well written article (from the New York Times) in the Press Enterprise today, and it illustrates just how ridiculous the dogmatic fearmongering of "global warming" being responsible for Katrina really is.
The article cites the fact that there were more numerous and more intense storms in the first part of the 20th century than in recent years.
While some people feel empowered and intelligent by taking responsibility for the weather, I find that attitude of "look at me, master of the world!" to be ignorant, shallow, and arrogant.
Truth is, nature always wins. We can no more control the weather that we can stop the tide, King Canute.
In closing, I wonder if any of us are old enough to remember the hysteria of "Global Cooling" that was so prevalent in the early 70's? People were stocking up on fur coats and preparing for the next ice age.
Guess what. "Scientists" aren't always right.
They weren't then, and they aren't now.
Nature is way more powerful then man.
Whether you are enlightened enough to understand it, or man enough to admit it, it is a fact.
We are slaves to nature, not masters of it.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS My bike gets 53 mpg. ;)
Maybe you should read my post one more time. Didn't mention global warming anywhere...did I? Didn't even infer that Katrina was in any way our fault...did I? In fact I said it is a natural even and has happened before and will happen again. So we are in agreement thus far.
I was merely pointing out that we are detrimental to the earth, to what degree? I don't know. We have the capability of really F'ing things up if we ever get nuke happy. We have bio weapons that could wipe out quite abit as well. We chop trees down faster than they can grow.
So your arugument is that yes we are hurting the earth but just no that much. Do you think the planet itself is better because we are here? Christ I hope not. We are a plague, albeit a small one right now. The sad thing is that we have the ability to preserve and protect the planet to some degree but we have chosen a different path. Oh well water under the bridge. Lets just keep on doing whatever the F*ck we want until we find out it was a bad idea. Wonderful Plan. I think we are going backwards. Hell people 2k years ago knew better than to build a city in a flood prone area. :eek: Lucky for them they didn't know how to build hurricane resistant walls. Hahahaha.

[FHI-prez]

I do agree that we are slaves to nature, not masters of it, but you don't have to be a master to F*ck it up (eventually). But we are heading toward screwing it up, not toward helping or preserving it.

[ECeptor]

Can someone explain this to me? I don't understand how (unless we have reverted to a pre-1930's unregulated free market situation) supply shortages justify high prices as a matter of necessity?
If they want to charge more they should be men and stand up and admit to it. They shouldn't lie and blame it on the hurricane!
F**k it. I'm not buying gas until October. Until then I'll make due with what I have on hand.