A case of free beer to the guy that........

[skeepwerkzaz]

Tells me whats wrong with my friggin' boat. Seriously, I am about to suck start a .45 here guys. I have a brand new 468 with a tunnelram, two 660's, a .630 solid cam, donovan gear drive, aluminum heads, and a bunch of other shit that doesn't work. It turns over and ALMOST starts every time but just won't fire. The easy stuff first....yes it is timed right, I verified that both valves are closed on #1 and the piston is at the top of the stroke. The timing is set @ 10 deg. BTDC. It is getting fuel and a spark that you could weld with. I am truely at a loss. Is there some trick to starting a dual carb tunnelrammed engine, or a semi-large cammed engine? This is my first time messing with a large-ish cam and multi-carbs. Come on guys use them knowledge noodles and help a suicidal friend out. No kidding, free beer to the winner. Here is a pic of the setup if it helps.......Thanks ahead of time............................
http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Forum_Graphic_Depot/engine1.JPG

[Rexone]

The fact that it almost starts points to timing, even though I know you said its' correct. There's only 3 things required to make an engine run (in the most basic terms).. fuel, air (or compression), and spark. You've got fuel you said, appears you've got air, my guess is your spark is just a little off on the timing. A fuel shortage problem could also cause it to "try to start" then not. Probably not much help but it probably something just really simple, that's usually the case when I can't make something work. Good luck

[canuck1]

cam timing---gear drive check it

[skeepwerkzaz]

My next project was to pull the cam cover off and check the cam timing. It does have some advance/retard deal on it but I set it up at what was advertised ad straight-up. Have any of you had any experience w/ the donovan set up? Any advisement here would be awesome.....Would I be able to tell by watching the valves if it was advanced/retarded? Would I be making and valve-piston contact? I am not hearing any funny noises, i.e. valve hitting noises. I have plenty of gas, as you can probably tell. Thanks guys!!!!.........aaaaaaggggghhhhhhhh
[ August 07, 2002, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: skeepwerkzaz ]

[canuck1]

get out your degree wheel, you won't hear the valves hittin. pull the plug on # 1 and use a wire to find tdc then use the wheel to determine opening and closing

[058]

Re-verify your timing, you might find that its way retarded, after you do that pull all the plugs and squirt some oil into the cylinders. With all the grinding you have done on the starter the cyls. are probibally gas washed and the cranking compresson is way low. There is no trick to firing a tunnel rammed engine as opposed to a single carbed engine except every time you open the throttle you are dumping twice the gas into the engine and 660 center squirters dump ALOT of fuel.

[gnarley]

skeepwerkzaz:
Would I be able to tell by watching the valves if it was advanced/retarded? Would I be making and valve-piston contact? I am not hearing any funny noises, i.e. valve hitting noises. I have plenty of gas, as you can probably tell. Thanks guys!!!!.........aaaaaaggggghhhhhhhhNo you can't tell by watching the valve if the timing is off. Did you build this motor? You mentioned your not hearing valves hitting anything or could you??? Does this mean that you actually checked the piston to valve clearence??? It's always a concern on a large lift/duration with high compression pistons. I would lean toward valve timing & initial timing. Have you ever lit this engine yet? How did you set your initial timing?

[Hallett19]

STARTING FLUID BABY!!!!
I don't know what to tell ya Clay. Your bro was having some trouble getting my boat started. The cam is straigt up, the timing was good but there was a problem with the coil, it even kept the thing from turning over good, took two batteries to make it even crank.... Call Wes.

[stressedout]

Do a compression test to make sure it's nothing internal.
Are you using fresh gas?
Look at ALL the plugs and see if there gas fouled.

[shockwaveharry]

I'm leaning towards timing too but, have you checked ALL the cyl's for even compression? Low cranking pressure would indicate a valve timing problem. Could the distributor be 180 degrees off? you'd be suprised how often that happens to the best of us. Are you sure the fireing order is correct? 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2. Good luck!

[Boater Bill]

Just gonna ask a stupid question...got your spark plug wires on correctly? 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
1-3-5-7 on the bank where the timing pointer is, 2-4-6-8 on the other bank.

[79Hawaiian]

Boater Bill:
Just gonna ask a stupid question...got your spark plug wires on correctly? 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
1-3-5-7 on the bank where the timing pointer is, 2-4-6-8 on the other bank.Not a stuipid question, I had a mis-wired 460 in my boat that 3 different mechanics could not diagnose. Sometimes the most simple of things can get overlooked.

[Nokomis]

Sounds like the distributer is 180 degrees out. Make sure you degree the cam also.

[Froggystyle]

This is just too obvious... but make sure your distributor is turning the correct way for your ignition sequence. It should be rotating clockwise, and I always put #1 at the 11:00 ish position and work from there. Reversed rotation will try to fire.
You have solid lifters, that could be adjusted too tight and is not making compression.
Cam timing could be off.
How old is your gas? Recent studies shown to me by my engine builder show that 91 octane pump gas after two weeks in a vented container (All boat fuel tanks) is down to 86 or so. After two months it can be in the 70's. The MTBE which gives it it's octane has a tendency to off-gas, and ruin your gas. Just a thought.
Here is the best one... I was trying like hell to time Jerry's picklefork after un-locking out the distributor and adding mechanical advance, and could not get it to start. I even got a good backfire report out the headers! Turns out the harmonic balancer had spun, and was nowhere near correct (110 degrees off in fact!) The crank keyway should be damn near TDC, so if your zero mark is not on it, that could be spun, and I know you are using an old dampner. It doesn't have to be off much.
Fuel? Check
Timing? Checking
Compression? Check
Only one variable bro.

[skeepwerkzaz]

The gas is three days old. Yes I checked the piston/valve clearance, but it was a few years ago so I can't quote the spec, I just know it was within tolerences. Tha valves are lashed properly. The dist comes up on #1 when it should, and yes it is spinning the right way with the right firing order. This timing set-up is suspect as far as I am concerned, There is a whole bunch of adjustments. Is the # 1 supposed to be pointed down? Are the timing marks supposed to be vertical or are they supposed to line up on the idler gear? I just pulled the timing cover off and this is what I found...... http://free.***boat.net/gallery/Forum_Graphic_Depot/P8080017.JPG
[ August 08, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: skeepwerkzaz ]

[skeepwerkzaz]

Oh yeah, I also removed the advance mechanism from my MSD dist. Could I have fuqued up the phasing of the mag pick-up?

[Slick]

check your PM under "my profile"

[Froggystyle]

How did you remove the advance mech?

[canuck1]

with out being able to see the position of the crank or lower gear I can't say . but if #1 is at tdc the cam locator pin should be to the rite
the 1 to 5 marks are for degreeing the cam and can be at any spot
[ August 08, 2002, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: canuck1 ]

[skeepwerkzaz]

Well I think I have figured it out......When I got the Donovan gear drive, I got it from a drag racer who used it for a season and got rid of the car & kept the motor. Anyway, I called Donovan and had them fax me instruction as to how to set the damned thing up. I followed them to the T. Fast forward a year (now) and time to actually run it. You guys all know the results. I spent the better part of today trying to sort out this mess w/ my bro froggy on the phone. I wound up calling donovan on the phone, relayed the instruction THEY had sent me and the guy said that they were the wrong ones, and swears they would't have sent me the wrong ones. They of course did, and as a matter of fact I still have the fax from last year with their name and fax # on it. Any way, A few of you have relayed to me that the cam dowel is supposed to be roughly at 3:00 when the cam is set up straight. Mine @ 3:00 has the ext valve on # 1 part way open. Is it ALWAYS supposed to be @3:00? The new instructions from Donovan say to find TDC on #1 piston and set up the deg. wheel. Then find the #1 cam lobes heel w/a dial indicator, and stick the gear on and call it good. The timing marks mean nothing, pretty cool huh? The original struction said to line up the timing marks. Thanks to all of you for your help, I guess I owe alot of beer. I am flying all day tomorrow (FRI) But I will have the thing back together this weekend for a test run. I will let Y'all know how it turns out.....

[skeepwerkzaz]

Oh yeah......Both of the valves on #1 were closed @ TDC how the cam was set-up. If the dowel is supposed to ba @ 3:00 how can they both have been closed?????? I don't get it. :mad: eek! :confused:

[canuck1]

4 cycle engine....

[Froggystyle]

I would agree with you Canuck, but even with the four cycle engine theory, there is only one point of all four cycles where both the intake and exhaust valves are closed at the same time, and that is on the compression stroke approaching TDC and firing. That is the biggest puzzlement to me, is how the #1 exhaust is still open with the cam key at 3 o'clock. I would say the cam is machined wrong.
Regardless, he is degreeing the cam properly now, so we can wait and see what happens.
Good luck.
Wes

[63stevens]

are you using a hightorque gear reduction starter? Is the engine turning over fast enough?

[comin' unscrewed]

Sounds like a cam timing problem to me too. And it sounds like you are on the road to sorting it out. Lot's of good help here.
My concern for you now is this:
With all the cranking you've done since assembly, I'm concerned that you've wiped away most of the moly lube (or whatever you used) on the cam. A .630 lift solid cam needs plenty of protection on initial start-up. If it were me, I seriously consider at least pulling the intake manifold if not removing the cam and relubing it.
One flat lobe will do a $hit-load of damage in a hurry.
Good luck!
Steve

[skeepwerkzaz]

Coming unscrewed, You are a wise man. I however, am a lap ahead of you. The intake is off, and the lube is lubed. I had the same worries you did. Now I don't. I am a couple of new gaskets away, from seeing if this candle will light. Stay tuned.... And again, Thanks a bunch guys. Moral support is cool. Hey kermit, thanks for the props today. Just watched Blackhawk Down again. Almost made me cry, glad you weren't there. I know you would have been holding the torch.......
[ August 09, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: skeepwerkzaz ]

[Flat Screwd]

Just one thing to remember . When you install the cam and you line up the timing marks the piston is at TDC but not on the compression stroke but rather the exhaust stroke. So if upon assembly you lined up the timing marks and then stabed the distributor you will be 180 out on crank timming.
Not to sound like a knowitall but everybody should allways take the time to degree the cam even if you plan on running straight up.
Hope this helps.

[Licketty Split]

Mite want to make shure there is power to the ignition when the sarter is not engaged just my 2

[shockwaveharry]

skeepwerkzaz:
...I am a couple of new gaskets away, from seeing if this candle will light...Well???

[Froggystyle]

I just talked to skeepwerkzaz yesterday, and I understand that he talked to Mr. Iskendarian in the morning. Guess what. On that cam profile, his exhaust valve is still open at TDC. I'll be damned.
So much for milled improperly...

[78Eliminator]

Froggystyle:
I just talked to skeepwerkzaz yesterday, and I understand that he talked to Mr. Iskendarian in the morning. Guess what. On that cam profile, his exhaust valve is still open at TDC. I'll be damned.
So much for milled improperly...Wes, what are you saying? That CAN'T be by design....
Justin

[Froggystyle]

I guess it is on his cam. 82 degrees of duration on the exhaust, advertised duration of 300+
Amazing but true. eek!

[78Eliminator]

Froggystyle:
I guess it is on his cam. 82 degrees of duration on the exhaust, advertised duration of 300+
Amazing but true. eek! WTF?

[Havasu Hangin']

300 degrees of duration? Only 60 left closed?
I guess you need alot of compression...cuz you won't use it all.

[Froggystyle]

I guess that is the idea. I don't know. I thought it was a bad grind...
Isky didn't think so though.

[skeepwerkzaz]

Hey guys,
Been out of the loop for a while, and not a whole lot of time to work on her. But I got it all together and the front carbs rear bowl was leaking all over the place. Took it all apart and got new gaskets on. By the time I got it together, it was too late to fire it up.(no baffles yet :D ) Don't want to piss the neighbors off too much. Actually, I may just take it down to the airport and run it there. Does anyone know how I can get water running through my pretty little headers? Should I just by-pass the Bassett valve and run a seperate hose for them? Thats all I can think of. By the way........My exhaust valves stay open 44degrees after TDC. To be honest with you I have know friggen idea how this works AT ALL. But Ed Iskenderian himself says it is one of the bet grinds for a BBC that he has ever used. He said it idles like shit at normal idle speeds so I should bump it up to around 13-15 hundred. He also said at around 3000 to hold the fu%$ on, eek! cuz my heads, intake and cam are gonna all start playing the same tune, right up until I run out of beans with the pump, which he feels should be around 5700-5800. Sound like plenty to me, I just hope it works out. By the way, it is pretty cool that he spent the time and answered my questions in person. Try getting that from the other guys. I am a BIG Isky fan now.
[ August 17, 2002, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: skeepwerkzaz ]

[MikeF]

S, As far as the water into the bassetts, I would remove the bassett valve and put together a ball valve and a tee w/ the correct fittings to be able to get water to them, then you can gauge the flow of water to the headers.
Check the opening of the ball valve prior to putting the valve assy on the engine to get an idea how much water will flow into the headers @ ball valve opening. Also.... the cam you are using (alot of overlap) causes reversion and will pull some of the water towards the combustion chamber...i.e....Do Not flow to much water to the headers! Engine will not idle well (if at all) @ low r's. Good luck! :)
I would place the bassett valve back in before running on the water unless you can figure out another way of running it. Mike

[Froggystyle]

I would bolt your shitball headers on to break in the motor.
Or, run your new chrome ones dry for 20 minutes, and accept that the nice blue color they turn looks cooler than chrome, and you will bypass the 6 months of loosing your mind caring for them.
The biggest hot tip on keeping your chrome headers chrome is to wipe them down with alcohol before you fire it after leaning on them. The oils in your skin and sweat will cook on the outside, creating a hot spot and then turn brown/blue. You will see a burned fingerprint on them for the rest of the time they are on the boat.
Squirts up!