LetÂ’s talk about fuel injection

[Carnivalride]

IÂ’m trying to get some information on mechanical fuel injection. This will be for gasoline to start with. From what I see there are several types of mechanical fuel injection. Here are a few that IÂ’m aware of:
• Hat (bug catcher) on a tunnel ram with an injector plate like the ones used in blown applications.
• Hat on a tunnel ram with the injectors installed low on the runners like where many manifolds have nitrous bosses.
• The “flying toilet” type of injection set up, butterfly set up on a single plane with injectors plumbed into the runners.
• Hilborn style injection.
• Injectorator style, using a carb for float bowls and idle circuits and then transitioning to runner injection.
What are the pros and cons of these systems, who’s used what and how do you like it and would you use it again or something different? Do mechanical systems typically have a part throttle lean out system or do they run rich at part throttle (2000-2500rpm cruising)? I was considering the Bug catcher on a tunnel ram approach with the injectors plumbed into the runners but it might be more cost effective to use my existing single plane and use something like the “flying toilet” set ups. Currently just kicking around ideas for this winter or parts I might want to be on the look out for.
Do I understand correctly that with all of these IÂ’d need an 80a fuel pump and a barrel valve assembly? What type of barrel valve assembly would I need IÂ’ve heard there are several different types. I know I need to run a return line but do I need to mount a tank up high or can I use my existing side tank?
Thanks,
Loren

[Snowboat]

Not to step on Carnivalride's post, but I would like to add two more questions.
1) Where is the best price to buy a mechanical fuel injection setup?
2) Will it work with an intercooler or does it have to be direct injection?

[blowngas]

This will be for gasoline to start with.
Oh buddy, the only thing harder to tune than a blown injected motor on gas is an injected gas motor----the tuning window is so small, it is not worth the time, money, and effort unless it is a race only motor, and then going after some record!!!-----a lot easier and more forgiving with alky!!!----the flying toilet works good with a single plane manifold as does the Waterman injecterator----I have run a 496 on alky with an injecterator on a dart manifold with good success and ease, as have others with the toilet----you should be able to run a booster pump (that can handel alky) from the side tanks to the injector pump, with the injector pump returning back to the tank----I've seen setups where guys ran carb float bowls on small tanks that fed the injector pump also---all different kinds of ways to make it work----but would really think hard about trying to run an injected gas setup.

[blowngas]

Where is the best price to buy a mechanical fuel injection setup?
Usually the best price is from someone who is wanting to stepup to a larger hat and pump combo, which would be a used setup, but still a workable deal----most any shops that sell setups (enderle, hilborn, bds, good vibrations, don jeradot, ralph goor, ect.) are pretty much the same price on new systems----you will just have to shop around and call each to find the best deal for you----there are a lot of guys on here that run stack injectors (alky)and sometimes you can find a good deals on those also

[GofastRacer]

the only thing harder to tune than a blown injected motor on gas is an injected gas motor----the tuning window is so small, it is not worth the time, money, and effort unless it is a race only motor, and then going after some record.
Wow, I take it you never messed with injection on gas!.. :confused: :confused:

[blowngas]

Wow, I take it you never messed with injection on gas!..
nope, never had anything to try it on, and was persuaded by the ones that did, to don't bother and use alky!!----was lucky and met a couple of gentlemen that ran blown setups and they passed along what they learned from experience to me----and it was a learning thing even then $$$

[ECeptor]

Your engine isn't even broken in and you're planning changes? Some guys just can't leave well enough alone! :) :) :)
jk, of course...I know Loren isn't happen unless he's researching and planning. I have a book for ya that has some articles on FE...I'll get it over to you the weekend we hook up at the lake.

[GofastRacer]

nope, never had anything to try it on, and was persuaded by the ones that did, to don't bother and use alky!!----was lucky and met a couple of gentlemen that ran blown setups and they passed along what they learned from experience to me----and it was a learning thing even then $$$
I run Crowers on gas and it's easier to tune than dumb carbs, it starts like a carb, it will idle at 800 all day long and I can cruise at any rpm until I run out of gas and the plugs are clean at any rpm!.. :smile: :cool:

[blowngas]

I run Crowers on gas and it's easier to tune than dumb carbs,
sounds like you found the right combination, Art-----you are definately a good source of information for anyone who could use it-------did you have to modify the barrel valve to get it to transition to a part throttle running??----most enderle b/v have a quick ramp off idle to full open----I ran one of Sid Waterman's first injectorators on alky (dragboat)and it worked pretty well----thought about trying to run it on gasoline to see how hard it would be, but never got with him to talk about it----not a whole lot of info on gas stuff down here in the badlands!!!----and most of the "tuners" nowdays either work only with alky or nitro!!!----will absolutely agree with you about rather tune a set of injectors than carbs-----and if a guy is gona invest in new stuff, he can get a hat setup complete for around the same price or cheaper than a new set of dominators!!!-----not sure what stacks go for----I pretty much fool with alky stuff now, blown and naturally aspirated injection----I always enjoy hearing what you have to say and your sharing of knowledge----thanks

[Carnivalride]

Your engine isn't even broken in and you're planning changes? Some guys just can't leave well enough alone! :) :) :)
jk, of course...I know Loren isn't happen unless he's researching and planning. I have a book for ya that has some articles on FE...I'll get it over to you the weekend we hook up at the lake.
Common now Ed you know that my budget made me settle for 467 cid that's only naturally aspirated....heck I don't even have nitrous. :hammerhea :hammerhea
Can you ever really have too much??? :shift: :confused: :cool:

[GofastRacer]

sounds like you found the right combination, Art-----you are definately a good source of information for anyone who could use it-------did you have to modify the barrel valve to get it to transition to a part throttle running??----most enderle b/v have a quick ramp off idle to full open----I ran one of Sid Waterman's first injectorators on alky (dragboat)and it worked pretty well----thought about trying to run it on gasoline to see how hard it would be, but never got with him to talk about it----not a whole lot of info on gas stuff down here in the badlands!!!----and most of the "tuners" nowdays either work only with alky or nitro!!!----will absolutely agree with you about rather tune a set of injectors than carbs-----and if a guy is gona invest in new stuff, he can get a hat setup complete for around the same price or cheaper than a new set of dominators!!!-----not sure what stacks go for----I pretty much fool with alky stuff now, blown and naturally aspirated injection----I always enjoy hearing what you have to say and your sharing of knowledge----thanks
Thank you I appreciate it!... Actually this set I got was an alky deal and I had to change the spool for gas but I didn't have to modify it, the ramp is fairly shallow on a stack deal and with a little tuning on the low speed it's very driveable!. You're right though the Enderle is based on a drag race deal where you're going from idle to full throttle no in between so it is harder to get driveability from them especially on gas with the narrow window. Also with blown gas it's real touchy compared with N/A, alky is a no brainer just poor it in and it will run, LOL unless you're looking for that "fine line" where it really wakes up but that's just short of melt down! LOL.... Pricewise if I was to get a hat I'd just as soon get a new one, they go for just about the same as used ones, and a hat setup is cheaper than a Dominator setup!.. :smile:

[Snowboat]

Don't be shy, give the Carnivalride and I some opinions.
Can you run an intercooler with hat injection or does it have to be direct?
Can one get it to idle (on gas) as low as one can with carbs?
Is injection only a full race deal or can it have the other ranges?
Why is it so much trickier when blown, if one already has blown carbed figured out?

[steelcomp]

Common now Ed you know that my budget made me settle for 467 cid that's only naturally aspirated....heck I don't even have nitrous. :hammerhea :hammerhea
Can you ever really have too much??? :shift: :confused: :cool:
Holy COW!!! Someone actually called a +.060 454 a 467, instead of a 468!!!
CONGRATUFREEKINLATIONS!!! :D :D :D

[Snowboat]

Steelcomp, what do you know about these fuel injection questions?

[Fiat48]

Hat on a tunnel ram not good for part throttle operation. It can be solved but takes some fooling around with idle check and making it a part throttle bypass valve...thus helping the spool to control the fuel at part throttle. I've seen them work better but never seen them work perfect. I would not do it. They do work better as an alcohol setup. But my opinion is that upright injectors work better for part throttle use.
Have no experience with flying toilet deal...know some guys that drag race them. Would say again..probably not good at part throttle.
Upright injector can be made very good at part throttle operation. It's all a combination of bypassing fuel at part throttle which is done with the spool in the barrel valve and the bypass.
The mechanical injection is not difficult to understand but a lot of people think it is. It is just a mechanical pump, a variable valve (barrell valve) that controls the fuel from the pump, a bypass valve (to send some of the fuel back to the tank as the pump puts out too much) and some spray nozzles and lines. The trick is.....to send back just the right amount of fuel AT ALL THROTTLE OPENINGS...so the engine gets what it needs. That's called the fuel curve.
Since the engine is very efficient (air pump) at low speeds and not efficent at high speeds (less time to fill the cylinder at high rpm)...you must taylor the fuel to match the engine.
Gas is harder to tune (narrower window) and alcohol easier to tune (wide window). Simple as that.
Idling..you can make a good (tight throttle shafts aned correct fuel bypass and spool) injector idle down as low as any carb and possibly lower.
Injection can be made to be very sweet..but you must work with it and understand it...or talk to someone with experience at making them work (GofastRacer).
Blown isn't any trickier than unblown.... it's just a blown motor allows for fewer mistakes.

[SUI-CY-COLE DIMARCO]

my buddy got 2 toilets alky injected on a 540 with a dart tunnel ram in a 65 chevelle,drives all around town and runs 8;60's..very reliable...i believe his set up is call a t-2 from rons toilets

[Fiat48]

Kinsler fuel Injection constant flow education. Go here and read. http://kinsler.com/hand31.html
In fact..download all you can. Usually this info only in his catalog. Just stumbled across it.

[Snowboat]

Thanks Bob.

[Carnivalride]

Holy COW!!! Someone actually called a +.060 454 a 467, instead of a 468!!!
CONGRATUFREEKINLATIONS!!! :D :D :D
Don't know how I did it except my actual bore was 4.311" and the stroke was 4.000". and my math said 467.08cid. :)

[Carnivalride]

Bob,
Thanks for the info, sounds like the cool looking hat on the tunnel ram wouldn't be a good choice for part throttle cruising.
Loren
Hat on a tunnel ram not good for part throttle operation. It can be solved but takes some fooling around with idle check and making it a part throttle bypass valve...thus helping the spool to control the fuel at part throttle. I've seen them work better but never seen them work perfect. I would not do it. They do work better as an alcohol setup. But my opinion is that upright injectors work better for part throttle use.
Have no experience with flying toilet deal...know some guys that drag race them. Would say again..probably not good at part throttle.
Upright injector can be made very good at part throttle operation. It's all a combination of bypassing fuel at part throttle which is done with the spool in the barrel valve and the bypass.
The mechanical injection is not difficult to understand but a lot of people think it is. It is just a mechanical pump, a variable valve (barrell valve) that controls the fuel from the pump, a bypass valve (to send some of the fuel back to the tank as the pump puts out too much) and some spray nozzles and lines. The trick is.....to send back just the right amount of fuel AT ALL THROTTLE OPENINGS...so the engine gets what it needs. That's called the fuel curve.
Since the engine is very efficient (air pump) at low speeds and not efficent at high speeds (less time to fill the cylinder at high rpm)...you must taylor the fuel to match the engine.
Gas is harder to tune (narrower window) and alcohol easier to tune (wide window). Simple as that.
Idling..you can make a good (tight throttle shafts aned correct fuel bypass and spool) injector idle down as low as any carb and possibly lower.
Injection can be made to be very sweet..but you must work with it and understand it...or talk to someone with experience at making them work (GofastRacer).
Blown isn't any trickier than unblown.... it's just a blown motor allows for fewer mistakes.

[GofastRacer]

A hat on a tunnelram is just like a stack deal. The only thing about an Enderle is that the spool in the barrel valve is designed more for drag race only, idle or full throttle so it is harder to make them driveable but not impossible, if you like the hat you can always change the barrel valve for a Crower or a Hilborn and those are easy since the spool has a longer ramp. The best units for a tunnelram for driveability is either a Hilborn upright 4 holer or better yet the Crower 8 holer, but hell you you can use anything that will control airflow, I made a unit from a pair of old junk carbs!.. And "YES" you can idle or cruise, pull the kids on the tube all day long with injection when setup right. And the best part is when it is setup, you just forget about it unless you have a drastic change in temperature or altitude!.. Oh also if you have a big cam you can still bring the idle down without loading up!..