455 Olds Low Oil Pressure [Archive]

455Olds

08-09-2003, 06:35 AM

Recently rebuilt my 455 olds, moderate cam, dual holley 750's, offy tunnel ram... I was told to use a standard oil pump rather than a high flow because the 455 commonly throws the oil to the top end and starves the pump. She holds just the 5-6 stock quarts. My hull is extremely shallow, and does not lend itself to a larger pan. I can barely squeeze my fingers under the pan currently. When I run it I have just 25 lbs oil pressure... never lower. Two guages read the same. Collapsed lifter? Any help?

Snorider

08-09-2003, 08:55 AM

25lbs at what rpm? if it is at idle, you are fine. Also, what weight oil are you running? That makes a big difference.

455Olds

08-09-2003, 12:43 PM

Basically all RPM's. At first start-up I read 40, even at idle. Once I run it for a moment the pressure drops off to about 25 where it sits steady. At idle or under go. Running R's as high as 5000 guage reads 25. Cheap aftermarket guage was purchased to veryify reading. Dash guage and aftermarket consitently read 25.
Castrol GTX SEA 40. Tried 10-30, 10-40... found no real improvement either way. The Straight 40 holds at 40lbs for a slightly longer time, but drops to 25 just the same.

Rexone

08-09-2003, 02:41 PM

Your oil pressure is low, lot of things can cause it. Some of the Olds gurus here will likey nail the problem for you. Excessive bearing clearence is one, too much oil to the top end, worn oil pump (not common).
On the pan, more oil will not solve your pressure problem, but is a good idea to prevent oil starvation on hard turns, hard decelleration, etc. The Dooley pans we sell are stock depth, just longer.
Hope that is of some help. :)

Snorider

08-09-2003, 02:54 PM

And you definately should not be running 10w30 in a boat motor. Straight 40wt oil is the choice of most boaters. It is a thicker (heavier) oil, which keeps your oil pressure higher when it gets hot.
If you have only 25lbs @ 5000rpm, you are gonna blow the motor in a very short period of time. Do you know if anyone installed oil restrictors on the motor? That could be the reason.

455Olds

08-09-2003, 06:53 PM

No, I do not know whether restrictors were installed. I will call the engine builder on Monday though.
The engine was rebuilt this spring by Wausue Engines in WI. They generally know what they're doing. I contacted the person I got the boat from, and he said that prior to my purchasing, and the rebuild, it had only run at 25 lbs. He ran it HARD for ten years...

bigkatboat

08-09-2003, 10:01 PM

The person who told you to run the standard oil pump, doesn't know how they work. The Olds (like many other US engines) has very large diameter bearing surface areas. However they also have very narrow bearings, and this tends to 'bleed off' the pressure and volume durring rotation. If you have never heard of the'wave effect' it is the motion of the oil under pressure in the area between the crankshaft and bearing. The consistant volume of oil moving thru the 'clearances' while maintaining the 'wave effect' is the reason your motor has not turned into a large ashtray, as of yet. You need higher pressures and tighter clearances, because the long distance the 'wave effect' has to travel around the bearing with minimal pressure loss.Are you still with me? NEVER RESTRICT OIL FLOW to the valve train on a play toy motor! Put 1/2" hoses on the BACK END of the rocker arm covers, and run them down to the oil pan just above the oil level and just below the windage tray. This will get the oil back to the pan and cure all of the 'breathers full of oil' problem. Breath out of the oil inlet tube on the front of the motor, and put a high volume med. pressure pump in it. You should have 60/70 lbs running (above idle) while hot. Good luck! wink

Wet Dream

08-09-2003, 10:36 PM

I'm not saying BigKat is wrong, but I'm not sold on the high vol/ pressure pumps. I don't run restrictors, but am using a standard pump for the flow reasons myself. I have a 9 qt pan, same depth as stock, but instead of getting thinner near the front of the engine, its the same depth across the pan. You can modify a stock pan to do the same thing for a lot less than the $400 for a new one. My stock pan created near same results that you are seeing. However, here is where it got better...I added an oil cooler with rmote filter locator, and run Valvoline VR Racing 50wt oil. Oil pressure at cold idle is 48, hot and wide open for any duration drops to 32 and no lower (and I can open it up more than ever before). Total capacity 10qts.
You are running into oil getting too hot and breaking down which is lowering your pressure.

455Olds

08-10-2003, 07:36 AM

Wet Dream: How'd you modify your stock pan to hold the 9qrts? I had an oil cooler on it prior to the rebuild, due to the unfortunate pressence of bearing material in the filters and lines, I did not put this cooler back on the new engine. I have been researching coolers to install... any ideas or suggestions?
Big Kat: Hoses from the rocker covers to the pan? Any pics of such a set-up? Did you say to place a breather on the oil inlet line?
web page (http://home.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=67163078-3d3b-7a46-42b3-527c3bbb3e07&size=lg)

malcolm

08-10-2003, 10:43 AM

Most low pressure problems on the 455 have to do with someone leaving out an internal rail plug. Usually the one that oils the distributer gear. Pull your dist, grab a 1/4 drive socket (5/16 I think), black tape that to a long extension and hook that up in a drill and spin the oil pump. Look down the dist hole, you should see a fine pencil stream of oil squirting out the end of the lifter galley. If you've got a big blob of oil coming out, there's the problem. A std volume pump should go up to around 45 pounds wound up, but could be around 25 at idle. Hope my 2 cents helps.

fleetimus

08-11-2003, 11:38 AM

I had my heads drill and ran lines to the pan http://cartogra.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=11aa2faa-7ca7-4308-62d9-777c4bcb197a&size=lg

455Olds

08-11-2003, 12:58 PM

Fleetimus: Who did the drilling?
How much presure were you running before? ...and after? Any other oiling mods?

fleetimus

08-11-2003, 03:03 PM

I had the holes drilled when the engine was built. 1/4" pipe thread and then used AN fittings and stainless to the pan. Both heads drain into one line to the pan. The holes are drilled into the oil passage in the head with a slight downward tilt. I have never had a problem with excess oil in the heads.

455Olds

08-11-2003, 03:23 PM

Are you running restrictors? Weight oil? What is your operating oil pressure? ...idle?

BiggusJimbus

08-11-2003, 06:24 PM

It's probably NOT the rear galley plug.
I just went throught that problem. If the rear gally plug is missing, you'd be getting about 7 lbs at idle and Maybe, if you are lucky, 20 at speed.
Are you certain that you are getting accurate readings on your oil pressure gauge? Good idea to double check with a mechanical gauge.
Good Luck.

Floored

08-11-2003, 08:23 PM

I hold 55-60 psi all day long running 2500-4500 rpm's. with fram filter 30 psi max. put in a NAPA filter by Wix and pressure came back and stays there. Have a 10 qt pan and run 8 quarts. I'm using 4 qts valvo 20-50 and 4 qts valvo racing 50 wt, breathers only, no external drains and no pcv and valve covers stay dry. this is my third year on engine with no problems. I'm happy with my boat anchor :cool:

455Olds

08-12-2003, 07:48 AM

BiggusJimbus: Verified readings with aftermarket guage. Bi-passed sending unit... same readings. under load or at idle, she runs a steady 25lbs.
Floored: I am running a fram filter. I guess I'm a sucker for the suregrip. I will pull and replace the filter tonight, use a 50wt oil, and get back with you all.
Time willing, I'll pull the distributor and turn the oil pump, Malcolm.

455Olds

08-12-2003, 04:06 PM

Well, my after work project showed no answers. Thought I'd start small/cheap and try the little suggestions. Tried a K&N Oil Filter vs my $2.00 Fram with Castrol GP SAE 50 Racing Oil.
Also took the opportunity to change the valve cover breather and PCV Valve though I really didn't anticipate these helping any.
Ran 40lbs for almost 5 full minutes. Water temp rose to about 140F and the oil pressure dropped to the 25lbs I've been accustomed to. Maybe 27, but I think it was wishful thinking.
My cordless drill wouldn't turn the pump, and my corded drill broke, so I'll try to turn the oil pump tomorrow.

1FastHallett

08-12-2003, 09:02 PM

all i can say is that when my big block olds motor went that low on oil press i spun 4 rod bearings. i now have a bbc.

Floored

08-13-2003, 09:06 AM

I know this is a pain but I've had pumps with bad pressure relief springs. pump can be fine and spring is weak and blowing off pressure too early. See if mondello or someone offers a high press spring or shim spring about .060-.080. then test with drill or starter before final button up

455Olds

08-13-2003, 02:17 PM

If it was the pump, I'd have bad pressure all the time... right from start-up, no? As I've stated, I run 40lbs for the first several minutes.
This engine is a newly rebuilt piece. Less than 10 hours (estimate). Installed in early June. The old piece spun a rod bearing, hence the rebuild. The spun rod was extremely noticable, and showed just 10lbs of pressure when this was the problem... I do not believe I have spun one now, since the pressure from first run has always been just 25, but feel it could become a problem if run with this low pressure, yes/no?
I've heard tolerances questioned in here earlier? Could it be that the rod bearing tolerances are off, and would this occur if they were too tight, or too loose?

Floored

08-13-2003, 09:12 PM

:confused: if you increase oil pressure cold to 65-70 then when hot it drops 15 psi then you are still ok. stock gm replacement pumps are set for 35-45 psi. if you put in the high pressure spring you only change when the pump goes into bypass mode and bleeds excess pressure off, not the volume and you will be ok. it's a pain in the bottom job but the best $3.98 you will spend devil trust me

Floored

08-14-2003, 06:41 AM

PS100 spring from mondello is $14.00 bucks or call them and ask about your pressure

malcolm

08-14-2003, 07:08 PM

I usually turn my oil pumps by hand with a 1/4 drive speed handle. That way you can hear what's going on inside, like big oil leaks. :D

bigkatboat

08-16-2003, 07:51 PM

Wet Dream, please don't say I'm wrong. 'Cause you will look like a fool. The info. that I posted above is TRUE FACT and I know that it is because I am a former General Motors Engineer. I worked for Delco Moraine Div. Proving Grounds Van Nuys Calif. (read that ENGINE BEARINGS, friction materials, and suspension systems) I have been paid well to build a FEW engines in my time. The old story about 7 lbs of oil pressure per 1000 RPMs, does NOT work for Olds, Buick, and some Cads/ Pontiacs. It can be OK for Chevys, BUT NOT OLDS! No one has asked about the bearing clearances on this NEW motor, and the oil pump may have too much end clearance gear to cover. If your machine shop rebalanced this motor, ask what the 'bob weights' were. The inertial forces at the rod bearings durring 5000 RPM runs is so large that the oil is JUMPING off the bearings durring rotation. The low oil pressures you guys are talking about is fine in a Vista Cruiser, but boats run CONTINUIOUS high RPMs and you are BANGING the bearings out of the motor!

bigkatboat

08-16-2003, 08:19 PM

Please think about this! Basic 455 Olds jet boat motor. TRW piston combination with your heads to create 9.7 true compression. Shot peened rods (after X-ray) ARP rod bolts. Check crank straightness. Seven angle valve job, dual TWO valve springs (not one and a dampener. Springs @ 110 on seat and 330/350 over the nose. Cam, .550"- 225 @ .050" intake, .550"- 230 @ .050" exhaust. 108 degree lobe centers, and put in @ 105. Main bearings @ .0015", rods @ .0015", single (1/2) groove shells. Piston to wall @ .007", ring end gaps @ .017" top, and .015" second. Blueprint your own oil pump @ .001" end gap, and one washer in the spring. If the bolts have been used 3 times, GET RID OF THEM! Use new/ good main and head bolts, don't cheap out. Use a big oil pan, oil cooler, and 1/2" oil return lines back to pan. Run a Holley 850, 76/78 in front, 4.5 power valve, 82 in back (this is for sea level) A 180 manifold works best,(like a Stealth or Performer RPM) Use an electronic dist. (like an HEI) 10 degrees initial, and 34 total, all in by 3000 RPMS. Breath out of THE FILLER TUBE, not the rocker covers. NO PCV VALVES!!! they can lean out cyls. You can make SMALL changes for your own motor, but if you build THIS MOTOR it will run hard and last a long time. By the way this motor holds 60/65 lbs of oil pressure at running temps, using 30wt. Kendall oil.

Wet Dream

08-16-2003, 08:43 PM

BigKat (read that DumbAss), you are quite the fool. Pull your head out of your ass and read more posts about the subject before you go firing off about your BS engineering job at GM. I never questioned your "wave" definition, its your crap about the high volume/ high pressure pump.
It has come to my attention that you don't have a clue about an Olds 455. Here are a few key posts that should have pointed your attention away from the bullshit bearing surfaces and the wave theory.
#1 posted August 09, 2003 10:35 AM
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Recently rebuilt my 455 olds, I was told to use a standard oil pump rather than a high flow because the 455 commonly throws the oil to the top end.
--This is a common occurence with BBO's at higher sustained rpm. Its not so much the pump, its the drain back system, or lack there of from the heads.
#2posted August 09, 2003 04:43 PM
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Basically all RPM's. At first start-up I read 40, even at idle. Once I run it for a moment the pressure drops off to about 25 where it sits steady.
--This is from the oil heating up. He is using a multi vis oil, and as it heats up and breaks down, the oil pressure drops. He really should run an oil cooler.
#3 I did not put this cooler back on the new engine.
--Might be a good idea.
#4 posted August 12, 2003 08:06 PM
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Ran 40lbs for almost 5 full minutes. Water temp rose to about 140F and the oil pressure dropped to the 25lbs
--Could this be the oil heating up? Or do you think the heat changes something in the pressure spring in the pump? WAIT, I get it, the bearing surface changes with heat? :rolleyes:
#5 posted August 13, 2003 06:17 PM
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If it was the pump, I'd have bad pressure all the time... right from start-up, no? As I've stated, I run 40lbs for the first several minutes.
--And this can be attributed to what??? :confused: Heat, maybe?
Comment stricken from the record.
[ August 16, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Wet Dream ]

Wet Dream

08-16-2003, 08:51 PM

Who is out there actually running one of these engines? 30wt may ass. What kind of warranty do you put on this combination?

v-drive

08-17-2003, 02:01 PM

455 olds, you need to talk with the shop that did the rebuild. That's a piece of change and if you change something because of what you heard someone on here say you could ruin any chance of them working with you. I just finished putting my olds together and after a carb problem it fired right now. Good luck....Ben

bigkatboat

08-17-2003, 10:20 PM

Dream, thanks for your input. I did read all of those posts and I thought I could lead all of you out of the darkness. I see that it will be a rough road, and I might not have the time to bother with your lack of actual engine building experince. Are you saying that the oil "lingers" in the upper valve train, and therefore we should send less oil to the valve train? WHAT THE HELL COOLS AND LUBRCATES THE MOTOR? It's not the water temp that causes the problems, it's the OIL TEMP! Restricting oil to the valve train in a 'play boat' motor is asking for trouble. Return the oil as I have described in my posts and you will have no problems. I don't remember how many Olds motors I have built over the years, but NO ONE ever came back with an internal problem, and if thay came back they wanted a CHEVY with more power. If I am so full of SHIT, as you think, go to a few REAL ENGINE SHOPS, not local guys, but shops that (have been in business for many years) are building top quality motors. Ask them about OLDS motors and use my post above for your questions. My bearing clearances are tight, but that is what it takes to make them live. An unblown jet (play) OLDS motor, with .003" clearance and 20/50 racing oil is a beater that will last, maybe two seasons (150 hrs.) By the way, it's a BSDE from Cal State. Go to real motor builders, (Lingenfelder, Rousch, Dutwiler, etc.) e- mail them and bring back their real answers. ( I all ready know) I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm really trying to help. BUT you guys are getting way too much WRONG info. and don't bring Mondello in to this cause his motors (with oil restrictors) sound like they are making cement. (and they kept me very busy thru the 1980's with rebuilds). Warranty is 6 months with rev-limiter, 30 days with out. What are the true clearances on the motor in question??? Thanks for reading!

Back Forty

08-18-2003, 01:32 PM

QUOTE: "BUT you guys are getting way too much WRONG info. and don't bring Mondello in to this cause his motors (with oil restrictors) sound like they are making cement. (and they kept me very busy thru the 1980's with rebuilds). "
:D :D :D smile_sp

malcolm

08-18-2003, 07:46 PM

bigkatboat, that's enough for me, I think you know what your talking about. wink

bigkatboat

08-19-2003, 12:02 AM

Thank you for taking the time to read my 'rantings' I am not bowing for your applause, but rather on one knee asking for your attention. Spending MONEY on any boat motor is a big step and you should have ALL the available info. so that you can make your own informed decision, on where your money goes. Thanks for reading. argue

058

08-19-2003, 12:41 AM

WetDream, You really should do some research before you spout off at someone that has the background that Bigkatboat has. I know who he is [never met f.t.f.] from an other board he is on. He has probibally been involved in ***boats longer than you have been alive. He has been very helpful with no bullshit and he has nothing to gain by offering his help. I wouldn't want to lose him because of stupid and rude remarks like we lost Fiat48. He left because of people like you. :mad:
[ August 19, 2003, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: 058 ]

Snowboat

08-19-2003, 04:31 AM

I wouldn't want to lose him because of stupid and rude remarks like we lost Fiat48.
I wondered where Fiat went. I bought a tall deck block from him and followed his engine recipe. Learned a lot from him. What pissed him off; I must have missed that thread.

058

08-19-2003, 08:16 AM

Snowboat:
I wouldn't want to lose him because of stupid and rude remarks like we lost Fiat48.
I wondered where Fiat went. I bought a tall deck block from him and followed his engine recipe. Learned a lot from him. What pissed him off; I must have missed that thread. I'll let Fiat48 respond to that if he wishes. He does graze thru here once in a while.

Wet Dream

08-19-2003, 10:46 AM

058:
WetDream, You really should do some research before you spout off at someone that has the background that Bigkatboat has. I know who he is [never met f.t.f.] from an other board he is on. He has probibally been involved in ***boats longer than you have been alive. He has been very helpful with no bullshit and he has nothing to gain by offering his help. I wouldn't want to lose him because of stupid and rude remarks like we lost Fiat48. He left because of people like you. :mad: You're all full of it. "Before I spout off"??? All this crap started from kats advice to use a high vol/ pressure pump. I disagreed and you asskissers think you're going to come down on me? Bullshit. You don't need one. You don't need restrictors and you don't need return lines. You need bearing clearances, and cool clean oil. If you're concerned about the "wave" cross drill the crank. I've been running my combo for 3 hard seasons now and tell me why I need return lines? Does the pan starve? No. Oil get hot? No. Rockers/ springs hot? No.
058, don't get on my case for what happened to or what Fiat did. If you think I'm going to sit here and silence my opinion, you're wrong. Some comments may appear rude, but thats all judgemental. "He left because of people like you" Bullshit. If you think I'm going to sit here and let someone tell others that his setup is the only way to go and if you don't follow it you're a fool...ain't gonna happen. A receipe is something to consider, but doesn't always work in everyones situation.

058

08-19-2003, 12:19 PM

Look....you started the name calling. Where do you get off calling anyone a "dumbass" and a "fool"? Bigkatboat offered to lend his expertise and its a damn sight more informative than your lame 3 years of running one engine. I get on your case for name calling because it isn't wanted. This is a FORUM, where ALL opinions are welcome, even your lameassed opinions. And since I've come to the defense of a fellow who's opinion I value a hellofalot more than yours makes me an asskisser?....F.O.

455Olds

08-19-2003, 01:41 PM

Well now look what I started. It's gotten me a million pages of suggestions...
all different...

Wet Dream

08-19-2003, 06:43 PM

058:
Look....you started the name calling. Where do you get off calling anyone a "dumbass" and a "fool"? PSST...Hey douche bag. Take a look at where it started. Don't come to me with your piss ant bullshit. This was the start.
bigkatboat
Member # 5129 posted August 16, 2003 11:51 PM
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Wet Dream, please don't say I'm wrong. 'Cause you will look like a fool.
I say he is wrong and F the both of you. Once again all of this bullshit started because I don't agree with the hv/ hp oil pump and all the crap that may be unnecessary. The wave effect I agree with, but not the pump. If you think that I need to agree with you you're off your rocker.