Opinions Needed....

[Kindsvater Flat]

http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3267.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3269.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3276.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3268.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/burnt.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/scuff1.JPG

[FlatStupid]

http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3267.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3269.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3276.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3268.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/burnt.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/scuff1.JPGIt's a Dodge! :hammerhea j/k

[MikeF]

http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3269.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3276.JPG
Bearings show signs of struggling to push piston up, and pulling piston down. :frown:
Are you using the same crank as before? If not, might check all the oil passages from the mains to the rods on the crank to make sure they are clear and can flow oil. If the oil is not being thrown onto the cyl walls by the rods/bearings....... :supp:
Friends in the past had problems w/scat cranks on their vw's cause of this type of problem.

[Kindsvater Flat]

Right. Now does this show that the piston is swelling in the bore so that maybe thats the reason for the bearing wear?
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/scuff1.JPG

[Squirtin Thunder]

It does look like something is going on with the piston to wall clearance. Have you mesured the pistons and bore to compare ??? I know you did on the build but how about now ??? Also looks like an starvation of oil to the rods. How are the mains ???

[MikeF]

If the piston can't shed the heat by way of the oil to the cyl wall.....the piston will keep growing, getting stickier in the bore leading to the damage to the pistons and the bearings. Kind of hand in hand. Not saying that is "exactly" the problem, but something to consider.
Same crank or different crank?

[Kindsvater Flat]

New crank. Piston measures 4.369, bore measure 4.375. :jawdrop:

[bottom feeder]

What is you Rod side clearance? looks like it may be tight? not slinging oil and cooking bearings and pistions.

[MikeF]

Mine is not a blown application, but my pistons are just a slight bit tighter. .0035 to .004. SRP forged. SRP recommends an additional .001 to .003 for marine/drag race or supercharged engines. It looks like it is nearly right there.

[ColeTR2]

....you have to take it slow and use alot of lube or it's gonna hurt!
I think you went to fast and need more lube!! because it did get hurt!! Sorry to see that!!

[Kindsvater Flat]

as per Ross's instruction sheet that I handed the machine shop.
http://www.schoutenranch.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/piston.jpg

[Kindsvater Flat]

I think you went to fast and need more lube!! because it did get hurt!! Sorry to see that!!
Hurts real bad when there is only 20 minutes time on it, (on the river), plus 2 10 minute sessions on breaking in a cam.

[wsuwrhr]

Originally Posted by bunny 166
....you have to take it slow and use alot of lube or it's gonna hurt!
OH it's gonna hurt......
Sorry to hear.
Too tight, only.006 thou clearance, not good enough for forced induction, not even enough for naturally aspirated, AND looks like a loss of oil pressure.
Did you pre-lube, and PRIME the engine before you started it? Just asking.
To me looks like an oiling problem. Seriously, the rod bearings are shit, and you cooked one rod so bad it turned red to burn the oil on it like that.
No Oil Pressure, possibly causing the friction on the cylinder wall to create the scoring.
How about the main bearings? Same damage?
Brian
Put a Chevy in it, and send me whats left of that motor. Please.

[wsuwrhr]

Not to be an ass, but who put the bottom end together?
If you already know the bore and piston...did you measure it when it went together?
or did you measure it after it was fuked up?
Brian
The machinist isn't always right.

[wsuwrhr]

It's a Dodge! :hammerhea j/k
Damn,
I KNEW that was comming.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Right. Now does this show that the piston is swelling in the bore so that maybe thats the reason for the bearing wear?
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/scuff1.JPG
No way,
INMHO,
Bearings too tight or loss of oil pressure. Pistons aren't tight enough that it locked up. I don't think the rods could have gotten hot enough to turn red from ONLY the pistons being tight. Something else is very wrong.
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

Originally Posted by bunny 166
....you have to take it slow and use alot of lube or it's gonna hurt!
Sorry to hear.
Too tight, only.006 thou clearance, not good enough for forced induction, not even enough for naturally aspirated, AND looks like a loss of oil pressure.
Did you pre-lube, and PRIME the engine before you started it? Just asking.
To me looks like an oiling problem. Seriously, the rod bearings are shit, and you cooked one rod so bad it turned red to burn the oil on it like that.
No Oil Pressure, possibly causing the friction on the cylinder wall to create the scoring.
How about the main bearings? Same damage?
Brian
Put a Chevy in it, and send me whats left of that motor. Please.
Never lost oil pressure. Still running 80 psi when I shut it off. Pistons were sticking putting the load on the rod bearing cooking them. 5 rods are burnt. No you can't have my motor. :D Mains are fine 1, 2, 7 rods are fine. It just got the rest.

[bondsman]

How did you post those pictures? What's the trick?

[wsuwrhr]

Never lost oil pressure. Still running 80 psi when I shut it off. Pistons were sticking putting the load on the rod bearing cooking them. 5 rods are burnt. No you can't have my motor. :D Mains are fine 1, 2, 7 rods are fine. It just got the rest.
KF, I don't think you could put THAT much friction in the cylinder wall to cook the rod without SEIZING the piston. It would have locked up long before the rod got red hot.
Bearing clearance?
Replace all the rods, and all the rod bolts, make sure you remag the crank and check for straightness.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

I'm just curious, are you using the stock Dodge 1.1 pins, or the .990 pin Chevy rods?
Like mentioned before, maybe the rod side clearance is too small, not letting enough oil out of the rods.
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

All the clearances on the rod bearings and sides were more than enough. I made sure of this. I'm using the big pin also.
Also within 5 minutes of me shutting it off I did hit the start button. It was locked tight. Next morning after it cooled it would crank over again.

[wsuwrhr]

Never lost oil pressure. Still running 80 psi when I shut it off. Pistons were sticking putting the load on the rod bearing cooking them. 5 rods are burnt. No you can't have my motor. :D Mains are fine 1, 2, 7 rods are fine. It just got the rest.
I hate to be the ass here, but you keep saying the same thing.
Fuk the gauge. I don't give a sh.it if the gauge reads 2000 PSI when you started it the first time, when you ran it at the river or in your driveway, when you shut it off, or when the boat has been sitting two years and the gauge is STILL at 2000 PSI.
Oil pressure on your happy ass gauge is read at your DASH, and it is taken from the TOP of the block, at the rear of the block no less, FAR FAR FAR away from the crank and rods. (Which BTW are the parts that are jacked up)
You dig?
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

All the clearances on the rod bearings and sides were more than enough. I made sure of this. I'm using the big pin also.
Also within 5 minutes of me shutting it off I did hit the start button. It was locked tight. Next morning after it cooled it would crank over again.
Comprende senor.
You never mentioned it being locked up when you first posted about firing the motor up?
Was the bore checked before you bolted the heads on also?
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

Ok my happy ass drill with the intake off pumps oil past the bearings when looking down through the lifter galley. Guage reads the same then also.

[wsuwrhr]

Are there aluminum traces on the cylinder bore also? Shoot some pictures of that also please.
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

No traces of alum in the 2 piston that I pulled. None in the other cyl's that I can see either.

[wsuwrhr]

Ok my happy ass drill with the intake off pumps oil past the bearings when looking down through the lifter galley. Guage reads the same then also.
Yes sir,
you verified oiling to the rods looking past the cam? You did this when you first put the motor together?
Pretty good idea.
I can't even say I have done that.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

No traces of alum in the 2 piston that I pulled. None in the other cyl's that I can see either.
We are talking about the bore of the block....right?
Im still saying it ain't possible to drag the pistons (in the short term) enough to cook the rods.
Not enough time on the motor.
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

I do that everytime.

[Kindsvater Flat]

We are talking about the bore of the block....right?
Im still saying it ain't possible to drag the pistons (in the short term) enough to cook the rods.
Not enough time on the motor.
Brian
Well not everything works in theory because it happened. And yes the bore of the block.

[wsuwrhr]

Well not everything works in theory because it happened. And yes the bore of the block.
Theory? It didn't happen because of the pistons sticking.
If you don't have any traces of aluminum on the bore, I will go down in flames saying the same thing. No way, no how. Not enough time to do that much damage.
If you did have aluminum in the bore, you MIGHT be able to convince me that is what happened.
I just showed these pictures to Mopar, she is now whining uncontrollably, and won't sit still.
Bad news, bad news.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

BTW,
I have a set of VW rods about that same color, or worse, due to the rods being too tight. It had plenty of oil pressure, and the ONLY reason I tore the motor down is because it was getting a rod knock.
I ran the shit out of that motor, I was drag racing it at Pomona when street legal drags were there. The day I tore it down, it still had 80 PSI at 8500.
Two of the rod bearings had melted enough of the material off that they looked like "thrust bearings" I am not kidding. It still ran, and it still had oil pressure.
I may still have them as a trophy as "what not to do" when building high HP VW's, or any other motor for that matter.
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

When I got done the rods had no less than .0025 with a side clearance around .018-.020, main clearance was set the same. I know for sure that it wasn't a tight rod.
This is #7 and #8 rod, same journal. I even took the air hose tonight to make sure the passage was clear... it was.
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/merge.jpg

[wsuwrhr]

When I got done the rods had no less than .0025 with a side clearance around .018-.020, main clearance was set the same. I know for sure that it wasn't a tight rod.
This is #7 and #8 rod, same journal. I even took the air hose tonight to make sure the passage was clear... it was.
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/merge.jpg
Nothing wrong with that, not that it really matters at this point, but I think the mains should be looser, .003-.004
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Bedtime for me,
Perplexing considering I didn't see it go together, and I can't see it now.
I am going to sleep on this one and get back to you later on "today"
Maybe I can help out, maybe not.
Brian

[Squirtin Thunder]

After reading all of this I say it is not the rod bearing clearance its the flippin Scat Crank. Similar thing happend to toddnjuzz with his Scat crank engine. I have also had this happen with a Scat crank SBC years ago. If you just were to replace the crank and bad rods most likely it will happen again if you use Scat. If you replace the crank with a good Eagle unit and replace the bad rods, I would bet you will be fine !!! It seems the Scat stuff swells with heat. I don't know shit just my $ .02 :chi:

[MikeF]

After reading all of this I say it is not the rod bearing clearance its the flippin Scat Crank.
KF never said it was a scat crank.

[Kindsvater Flat]

Factory steel crank.

[superdave013]

I think it's Karma because K-flat likes to pick on The K Boat King. The King prolly had a vodoo mopar engine and was sticking pins and needles in it when K flat was at the lake that day. :eek:

[haulina29]

How much boost ? What was your timing ?

[Moneypitt]

Cross drill the next stock steel Mopar crank, or use an Eagle with priority oiling...........Boost? there was BOOST???......See above..........MP

[haulina29]

Looks like black death to me . Maybe way to much lead or the wrong cam over boost ? Looks like the engine was beating itself to death . What is the static compression ratio ?

[steve d]

Kf......please Put This On Gearheads Or Blowers---like To Hear What Fiat, Info Etc. Has To Say About It....interesting---steve

[superdave013]

Looks like black death to me . Maybe way to much lead or the wrong cam over boost ? Looks like the engine was beating itself to death . What is the static compression ratio ?
George @ Clay Smith made the cam for him.

[rrrr]

I think it's Karma because K-flat likes to pick on The K Boat King. The King prolly had a vodoo mopar engine and was sticking pins and needles in it when K flat was at the lake that day. :eek:
:D That's funny....
Sorry to see those ugly pictures.

[Kindsvater Flat]

Looks like black death to me . Maybe way to much lead or the wrong cam over boost ? Looks like the engine was beating itself to death . What is the static compression ratio ?
15 initial 30 total boost suppose to be 8lbs, 51 bottom 54 top pulley, compression is 8.2:1. I was cruising up river at about 3500 when I hit recall on the tach later.
Given this is a blower deal would siezing be less noticable? Blowers make boost under load.

[bocco]

Is the damage on both sides of the piston? Seems like if the problem is rod clearance then the damage would be more on one side of the piston. Not speaking as and expert just trying to learn something.

[Kindsvater Flat]

Both sides.

[O.B eddie]

After reading all of this I say it is not the rod bearing clearance its the flippin Scat Crank. Similar thing happend to toddnjuzz with his Scat crank engine. I have also had this happen with a Scat crank SBC years ago. If you just were to replace the crank and bad rods most likely it will happen again if you use Scat. If you replace the crank with a good Eagle unit and replace the bad rods, I would bet you will be fine !!! It seems the Scat stuff swells with heat. I don't know shit just my $ .02 :chi: Soo you would Knock a scat and promote an Eagle?? Are you kidding me??? Sounds like some clearances were measured with PLASTIGAUGE!! Hee Haww Fur Da little green clearance measuring device!! :wink: :boxed:

[steve d]

http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3267.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3269.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3276.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/DSCF3268.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/burnt.JPG
http://www.schoutenranch.com/miscboat/junksized/scuff1.JPG
What have you learned K.F......Steve

[Kindsvater Flat]

That mopar's are not cheap. :D
Honestly I haven't touched it. I don't have time right now. So there are still 6 pistons in it.

[bonesfab]

What kind of rods were they? the chinese rods usually need to be resized to make them dimensionally correct. would also check to make sure the rod has clearance at the pin end between the piston and rod when assembled. just my 1cent worth..

[Kurtis500]

I've got a set of H-beams that look just like that after spinning a few bearings. You may check a couple things. Have your crank mic'ed and check your bearings. It sounds silly, but if you put the wrong size bearings on your crank you'll get problems right away. Your wear pattern around the bearings doesn't look symetrical. I would look to the measurements of your bearings, crank and pistons to maybe give an answer. One thing is for sure, you got them rods hot. I am going to say you have an oiling issue somewhere if the clearances are all fine, even if your guage doesn't say so. My spun bearings came from a pick-up that fell off in the pan. I dont think your skirts are as bad, more than likely the heat was great enough to make them rub if it was enough to seize the motor. Take the piston and take all the piston rings and spin them around by hand. If they all move, more than likely you haven't had enough heat in the piston area to melt down the ring lands and have the piston be the force that seized the motor. Those big ends on the rods are where the heat was at. Also take your pistons and have them mic'ed from skirt to skirt. You may have collapsed some of them in the process. They may be knurled if not too badly collapsed. 6 thousandths is not very much clearance for blown gas and forgen pistons. I run 12 on my blown motor, .035 on the rods and mains and 40wt oil.
Those are my guesses :shift:

[Fiat48]

New crank. Piston measures 4.369, bore measure 4.375. :jawdrop:
Is the stock bore size of a 440 mopar 4.320?
Are your pistons .060 oversize?

[Kindsvater Flat]

Yes the block is bored .060 over Bob.

[Fiat48]

Then 4.320 + .060 = 4.380. The piston manufacturer knows the expansion rate of the material he builds the pistons out of.
Your bore size is quite short at 4.375. Don't know who's idea that was. Should have been at least 4.380 to start with.
But I suspect a clearance problem (rod end size/ vertical bearing clearance). In my opinion of it were all piston clearance then all the rods would have been eaten. Yet a few survived.
The rods will have to be thrown away.
.003 rod clearance is a better number. If the mains look good and not touching...you can probably live with the clearance you have. Otherwise would like to see looser..like .0035 on the mains.
If you do not have dial bore gauges and are relying on plastigauge.....bring it to Reno and I will measure it for you. Don't want to see this happen again.

[CircleJerk]

KF There is at least one thing good here.....you caught it in time! Next comes one or more rods OUT! I agree, clearance, oil, incorrect machine work, etc. I would also like more rod clearance and piston to wall with a blower. Oil pressure would be less with more clearance and 80 scares me a bit, depending on its weight. sorry, that had to be a big disappointment.

[wsuwrhr]

If you dont have a bore gauge, I would be happy to send mine up to you to borrow. If you need mics, I can send them too.
Let me know if I can help, if I were closer I would personally show up.
Brian

[Kurtis500]

I noticed you said the mains were fine but there are still some pistons in the block. Have you pulled the main caps? Are ALL the mains fine with no wear or scaring? If they are, the issue seems to narrow right to the rods and thier clearances.
I agree with fiat48 to replace the rods. Although I did resize the h-beams and put them back in for a few races with no problem. I would'nt recommend it. We were going to replace everything in the motor and were willing to risk it for a couple of races. When I got the aluminum rods for the new set-up, the side clearances were off by alot, I had to put them on my mill and take them down a ways to make the fit properly. The were also advertised as being the rod to fit the exact 496 combo that we built.

[lucky]

man that sucks mike - just think if all that rotating mass would have stopped ! :sqeyes:
I told you not to use the rods out of that john deer :D :coffeycup

[Sherpa]

Kflat,
sorry to see the problems in your motor........ it is a bummer...... not only
the money part, but the time as well............ looks like wait till harvest is
over, and find out what happened and fix it..........
--Sherpa

[Kim Hanson]

Mike, im going to sit tight on the blower thing buddy, sorry to hear of the pain to fix it again.........( . )( . )........ :frown:

[Cousin Bob]

Mike, sorry to hear about this. I know how long you have been waiting to run your blower motor.
I hope your ski-tow didn't melt down in your avatar fire :jawdrop:

[wsuwrhr]

So give us the low down sir,
Your post in the cam thread had me thinking about your problem again, so I had to find this thread.
Another question: Are you using the stock RB oiling setup? specifically the 3/8 pipe oil pickup that screws into the block? Is it switched to 1/2 pipe, or is your pickup in the side of the pan?
The offer still stands about using my dial bore guage if you do not have one.
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

Milodon dual line. I have a dial bore guage.
The guys that I had come over and look at it said it was because of piston to bore. Pistons were tightening up and smashing out the bearing to closing all rod side clearance which ended oil slinging. Everything is apart and at my buddies shop. He already honed the block to give it the .011 that I need. Just have to find a crank and by another set of rods. Pistons are salvagable.

[wsuwrhr]

Milodon dual line. I have a dial bore guage.
The guys that I had come over and look at it said it was because of piston to bore. Pistons were tightening up and smashing out the bearing to closing all rod side clearance which ended oil slinging. Everything is apart and at my buddies shop. He already honed the block to give it the .011 that I need. Just have to find a crank and by another set of rods. Pistons are salvagable.
Good oiling system. I am running the same.
I hope they are right.
Bummer deal that the crank can't be saved.
Brian