pump questions

[tahitijet]

Ok i'm going to send my impeller to get it detailed.. in the mean time i was wondering if someone could tell me what the impeller to wear ring clearance should be? how exactly to check it? And how to measure the impeller for the wear ring size?
also whats the differance between shouldered and standard wear ring? I was thinking of getting an ultimate wear ring since the lakes around here are pretty clean and we only run the river once maybee 2 times a year. Anyone have any input?
thanks

[Red Horse]

You want to get the wear ring and impeller machined to each other. Not sure of the clearance, but they need to be done as a matched set.

[sleekcrafter]

Best thing to do is pull the wear ring out, and send it in with the impeller, as RED HORSE said, and go from there. Just ask for a wear ring liner and a shim kit for the impeller, when your components get shipped back. Have fun...
sleek

[El Prosecutor]

Just ask for a wear ring liner and a shim kit for the impeller
sleek
What you mean: "shim kit"? Sounds like some kind of Korean food. :yuk:
Seriously though, I am getting ready to order a complete rebuild kit with a new impeller and wear ring, and this is something I haven't heard about.
And for all of you who slow down at the scene of an accident, see picture of my old impeller attached. .. (warning: graphic! :skull: )

[Ken F]

I'd suggest calling Duane at HTP about the Ultimate wear ring!
Not just cheerleading here, but the hole-shot is amazing after installing one.
Ken F.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Ok i'm going to send my impeller to get it detailed.. in the mean time i was wondering if someone could tell me what the impeller to wear ring clearance should be? how exactly to check it? And how to measure the impeller for the wear ring size?
also whats the differance between shouldered and standard wear ring? I was thinking of getting an ultimate wear ring since the lakes around here are pretty clean and we only run the river once maybee 2 times a year. Anyone have any input?
thanks
If you look at the pic below, the thrust bearing went south and the impeller powered its way into the suction housing. If there was a shouldered wear ring you have some protection for the suction housing. Some people don't like the shoulder wear ring because of the suction to wear ring space, left unatended to, it can cause excess cavatation. One other good point to the shouldered wear ring is you can tighten up the thrust clearance. Most of the old Berk pump had around .060 - .120 thrust clearance. Some builders like around .010. I step the pump up according to the person that owns the pump and there habbits. As far as impeller to wear ring clearance you really want to be in the .015 -.030 range for an eficiant pump. This is done by using calipers on the outside leading edge of the impeller. I have not tried the Ultimate Wear Ring yet so I can not coment except that it is plastic and leaves you no protection for the suction housing in the event of a thrust bearing failure.
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=10351

[sleekcrafter]

What you mean: "shim kit"? Sounds like some kind of Korean food. :yuk:
Seriously though, I am getting ready to order a complete rebuild kit with a new impeller and wear ring, and this is something I haven't heard about.
And for all of you who slow down at the scene of an accident, see picture of my old impeller attached. .. (warning: graphic! :skull: )
Wow looks like your impeller went on a journey :eek:
The shims are just that, shim washers for clearancing impeller to the wearring, they sit on the impeller shaft against the front edge of the impeller. They help set the clearance on the front edge of a shouldered wearring. I think they come in overhaul kits too. I don't buy the whole kit myself, just the parts I need. :)
sleek

[Squirtin Thunder]

Most of the old Berk pump had around .060 - .120 thrust clearance. Some builders like around .010. I step the pump up according to the person that owns the pump and there habbits.
The shims are just that, shim washers for clearancing impeller to the wearring, they sit on the impeller shaft against the front edge of the impeller. They help set the clearance on the front edge of a shouldered wearring. I think they come in overhaul kits too. I don't buy the whole kit myself, just the parts I need. :)
sleek
Bereley found that .120 was a good # for ditch pumps. When you have a stock pump the shouldered wear ring will help tighten this up without cutting the shaft. Most of the time you have to shim with a shoulered wear ring. Another benifit is it gets the impeller closer to the bowl vains and this helps the pump be more eficiant kind of like using a stuffer. Some stuffers will not fit because of the shouldered wear ring and require machine work.
The shims are extra, and do not come in the kits.

[El Prosecutor]

[QUOTE=Squirtin Thunder]If you look at the pic below, the thrust bearing went south and the impeller powered its way into the suction housing. QUOTE]
That is no joke - see pic of thrust bearing (attached). . .

[Rondane]

When you have a stock pump the shouldered wear ring will help tighten this up without cutting the shaft. Most of the time you have to shim with a shoulered wear ring. Another benifit is it gets the impeller closer to the bowl vains and this helps the pump be more eficiant kind of like using a stuffer. Some stuffers will not fit because of the shouldered wear ring and require machine work.
The shims are extra, and do not come in the kits.
the couple places i talked with in my area include shims in the new rebuild kits they sell. I can definately see the advantage to using a shouldered wear ring over a non shouldered one. They seal the impeller on 3 sides instead of 2 as per design i am told. With an impeller like that one, is there an advantage of using a plastic wear ring? Seems like a potential headache waiting to happen no? I would think you'd want a harder material like brass that would take the brunt of everything as to not take your impeller out like the one above or even suction out in the event of bearing failure. Do the job once and forget about it. Just my .02.

[Ken F]

First, they are not "plastic" wear rings, they are made of a very hard material, almost like a super hard nylon (would be my best description)
If your impeller is set up correctly, you need not worry about an additional wear surface. It is my understanding that these seal much better than a metal one because they are able to flex just a bit and seal around your impeller better than metal. This is my understanding anyway, all I know is that they give you a tremendous boost on your hole-shot!
I've had one in both of my boats over the last 7 years, and have seen no wear at all.
Looking at this in reverse, I'd much rather have the impeller up against nylon than brass if things did get out of sinc. Personally would rather buy a wearring than an impeller.
Ken F

[Squirtin Thunder]

First, they are not "plastic" wear rings, they are made of a very hard material, almost like a super hard nylon (would be my best description)
If your impeller is set up correctly, you need not worry about an addirional wear surface. It is my understanding that these seal much better than a metal one because they are able to flex just a bit and seal around your impeller better than metal. This is my understanding anyway, all I know is that they give you a tremendous boost on your hole-shot!
I've had one in both of my boats over the last 7 years, and have seen no wear at all.
Looking at this in reverse, I'd much rather have the impeller up against nylon than bronze if things did get out of sinc. Personally would rather buy a wearring than an impeller.
Ken F
Ken,
First off Happy New Year. Your hole shot comes from your BBF. Yes the plastic/nylon wear ring sealer much better because of the way you set the pump up. I believe it is .000 thrust clearance. Now if a thrust bearing goes bad the nylon/plastic wear ring will not hold it back from destoying the suction housing. The plasic/nylon wear rings have there place.

[Duane HTP]

There is NO Plastic content in the Ultimate Wear Ring. That is wrong information. Some of the other wear ring suppliers use it, we don't. Ours is made of an upper echelon urethane compound, (a type of rubber), that has been run through an anille process. We hold a patent on both the material and the process. Plastic has a pretty high coffecient of friction to water compared to our product. One of the good properties of our urethane product is that it is very resistant to abrasion compared to metal. No offense, just trying to clearify.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/images/Inducer_DPS3162.jpg

[Ken F]

Happy new year to you too Jim!!!
Your hole shot comes from your BBF.
You know this is in direct contradiction to what Duane keeps telling me. :)
Partly from the BBf, but the wear-rings DO make a hell of a difference.
On the old Omega, I couldnt believe the difference when we switched it from Brass to Ultimate wear-ring.
Duane has proven this also on the clocks. Try one as a test bud....you will be impressed! I've seen him give them to two different racers at two different drags, and both have come back raving about it. He always carries a few to the races just in case someone needs a wear ring.
Ken F

[Squirtin Thunder]

There is NO Plastic content in the Ultimate Wear Ring. That is wrong information. Some of the other wear ring suppliers use it, we don't. Ours is made of an upper echelon urethane compound, (a type of rubber), that has been run through an anille process. We hold a patent on both the material and the process. Plastic has a pretty high coffecient of friction to water compared to our product. One of the good properties of our urethane product is that it is very resistant to abrasion compared to metal. No offense, just trying to clearify.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/images/Inducer_DPS3162.jpg
Happy New Year Duane !!!
Duanne send on out and I will test it and if it works as stated, I will run your decal on the boat if not I will send it back to you.

[Duane HTP]

Read your PM

[wet77]

There is NO Plastic content in the Ultimate Wear Ring. That is wrong information. Some of the other wear ring suppliers use it, we don't. Ours is made of an upper echelon urethane compound, (a type of rubber), that has been run through an anille process. We hold a patent on both the material and the process. Plastic has a pretty high coffecient of friction to water compared to our product. One of the good properties of our urethane product is that it is very resistant to abrasion compared to metal. No offense, just trying to clearify.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/images/Inducer_DPS3162.jpg
I have installed HTP ultimate wear rings in three boats with great success and in my own boat as well.
I run the river and am always sucking sand leaving the sandbar , I pulled the pump apart this fall and the wear ring was in brand new shape!
I can also from a idle slam the gas to the floor with 5 adults in my 21' daytona and not unload the pump!
Ultimate Wear rings Rock!!

[Rondane]

Partly from the BBf, but the wear-rings DO make a hell of a difference.
On the old Omega, I couldnt believe the difference when we switched it from Brass to Ultimate wear-ring.
Ken F
Was your pump in need of a rebuild at the time? If you clearance was way out of whack and everything was worn of course your going to notice a "hell of difference". I can see if you want to pull your pump apart all the time as in race conditions but how will it stand up to the test of time...if there is any difference at all? Did you pick up speed? How many times in 7 years have you had to pull your pumps apart and how many hours are on them? I'm in the water 5 times a week when the weather is nice here and on my days off. If you drive you ride off the trailer to the beach all day and then back your not gettin much time for any kind or wear. Are these wear ring cheaper than metal or something? I looked but could find a price. try to save money when you can. :) I would think using the brass over urathane or plastic is just piece of mind in the long run for protection of further damage if your thrust bearing goes, especially in the case of the impeller in the picture. That's like a hot knife thru butter, bam your done. Just curious fellas.

[sleekcrafter]

Most bearing failures are a result of poor maintance, and / or water contamination. Your suposed to be able to hear a bearring going south on you, but is probly not the case, for an OT type boat. I have upgraded to the Dominator style pre-load bearing assembly, it's a single row bearing, instead of the double roller. It's supposed to run cooler, with less friction, and great for long endurance runs. I know there is much less grease, getting slung after it's serviced. This here is what I run.....
Sleek
http://americanturbine.com/images/products/hp/bearing.jpg

[Ken F]

>Was your pump in need of a rebuild at the time? If you clearance was way out of whack and everything was worn of course your going to notice a "hell of difference". <
No, it was just rebuilt within 4 months of changing wear rings.
>I can see if you want to pull your pump apart all the time as in race conditions but how will it stand up to the test of time...if there is any difference at all? <
They stand the test of time very well, including gravel & rocks from personal experience.
>Did you pick up speed?<
This I can't honestly answer as I did other things right about the same time also, and it has been three or four years ago on my old boat.
> How many times in 7 years have you had to pull your pumps apart and how many hours are on them? <
Actually there are about 14 or 15 years of Jets under my belt, and I've never HAD to pull a pump apart. I've done upgrades, and a setback, then bought a new pump for the new boat which was pulled apart before insatllation to install an Ultimate wear ring..
>I'm in the water 5 times a week when the weather is nice here and on my days off. If you drive you ride off the trailer to the beach all day and then back your not gettin much time for any kind or wear. Are these wear ring cheaper than metal or something? I looked but could find a price. try to save money when you can. :) I would think using the brass over urathane or plastic is just piece of mind in the long run for protection of further damage if your thrust bearing goes, especially in the case of the impeller in the picture. That's like a hot knife thru butter, bam your done. Just curious fellas.<
I can't match the 5 day a week thing, but I do put a lot of use on my boat.
I live 30 minutes from Tablerock, so many times after work in the summer, I'll tow down for 3-4 hours or more in the evening, and almost every weekend. I also travel long distances on the lake, oftentimes down into Arkansas from Missouri, so it gets quite a lot of runtime. I put in 2-25 gal. tanks to facilitate this.
I've noticed no noticible wear on my wearring, and have sucked up gravel on a couple of occasions accidently. Each time I've checked the ring, and there is onlly one faint scratch in it.
I guess that it simply boiils down to whatever you are comfortable with. People are naturally resistant to change, that's one of our qualities as humans!! LOL
If you are more comfortable with Brass, or you feel it is safer, then by all means run one.
I was just throwing out my experience with them, which has been very favorable.
Happy new year!
Ken F

[SmokinLowriderSS]

The Ultimate ring in my Taylor dates from 1989, and is still sealing good. When I rebuilt it was after a day of tubing in Cheeney when we spent too much time in too shallow a water, and churned enough sand while in reverse over the day to destroy an impeller. The brass wear ring was in perfect shape, the Al impeller was missing a 1/4" of material to seal to the wear ring, the ENTIRE front lip area. Mine is worn now, I suspect most of it from road-crap being in it when started, even wet. the impeller has wear, and the ring is loose side to side, but is still pretty tight fore-aft and still pulls hard.
The bronze ring MIGHT save the suction housing in the event of a catastrophic thrust bearing failure (IF you catch it with header noise), but it won't help much unless it is a lipped ring.
I am rebuilding the drive this winter for the new Bronze jewel. :crossx: Another Ultimate ring is in my future.

[Squirtin Thunder]

First, they are not "plastic" wear rings, they are made of a very hard material, almost like a super hard nylon (would be my best description) I'd much rather have the impeller up against nylon than brass if things did get out of sinc. Personally would rather buy a wearring than an impeller.
Ken F
Well after talking with Duane these wear rings are well not nylon or plasic. I am willing to try one, But I am sending Duane my impeller to be fit to the wear ring. This will be very interesting to see results.

[2Sangers]

How much?$$$?

[Rondane]

Happy new year to you too Jim!!!
Your hole shot comes from your BBF.
You know this is in direct contradiction to what Duane keeps telling me. :)
Partly from the BBf, but the wear-rings DO make a hell of a difference.
On the old Omega, I couldnt believe the difference when we switched it from Brass to Ultimate wear-ring.
Ken F
I'd like to ask again what "hell of a difference" did you notice in changing wear rings? Do you have any numbers or is it one of those seat of the pants type things? From reading your posts it seems you work and are friends with the maker of the wear ring you use. Did he rebuild your pump or did you? Usually someone who makes their own stuff uses their own stuff, whether it really makes a difference of not. Thats what its made for. :) Around here, dons pump service is the builder of choice and you'd be amazed how many of those inducers are used for example...whether the boat benifits from them or not. I've never really heard him mention the ultimate wear ring. He sure likes the inducer though! :) Next time i am there i will have to ask. Again not trying to be negative, just would rather have a true honest opinion from someone other than a friend or person who has their pump built for them. I would say the wear ring and impeller clearances is what made the "hell of a difference" more so than the actual wear ring. Just my .02

[Squirtin Thunder]

I'd like to ask again what "hell of a difference" did you notice in changing wear rings? Do you have any numbers or is it one of those seat of the pants type things? From reading your posts it seems you work and are friends with the maker of the wear ring you use. Did he rebuild your pump or did you? Usually someone who makes their own stuff uses their own stuff, whether it really makes a difference of not. Thats what its made for. :) Around here, dons pump service is the builder of choice and you'd be amazed how many of those inducers are used for example...whether the boat benifits from them or not. I've never really heard him mention the ultimate wear ring. He sure likes the inducer though! :) Next time i am there i will have to ask. Again not trying to be negative, just would rather have a true honest opinion from someone other than a friend or person who has their pump built for them. I would say the wear ring and impeller clearances is what made the "hell of a difference" more so than the actual wear ring. Just my .02
Yes set-up is the important part of all pump services. Now in my conversation with Duane I am doing something very close to what Duane has experienced with his wear ring. I bet if you do an LVjetboy serch you will find something on these wear rings. I am going to install one in my pump and test it first hand. It will be a while before I hit the water but give me a month or so and I will let you all know first hand. How the spaceage/plastic/nylon/cryptonite wear ring works.

[Ken F]

Rogain,
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over this.
Yes, Duane and I have become very good friends, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Originally, I was just a customer. Didn't know him from Adam.
If you don't feel it is a good product, then don't use it.
If you trust Don's pump Service and he doesn't recomend it to you, then don't use it.
it's that simple.
I was simply stating my experience with them.
I don't understand why all these threads have to turn so controversial.
Why cant people just accept one mans opinion as just that. Any two people are going to differ on opinions, and if you don't agree, understand that & let it go or state your own opinion.
In the infamous words of Forrest Gump: "...and that's all I have to say about that."
KenF

[Squirtin Thunder]

Rogain,
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over this.
I was simply stating my experience with them.
I don't understand why all these threads have to turn so controversial.
Why cant people just accept one mans opinion as just that. Any two people are going to differ on opinions, and if you don't agree, understand that & let it go or state your own opinion.
In the infamous words of Forrest Gump: "...and that's all I have to say about that."
KenF
Nope Ken we agree that the BBF is the stuff

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Nope Ken we agree that the BBF is the stuff
There you go with that FURD stuff:D;);) Just jerkin' ya chain jim;)
396

[Squirtin Thunder]

There you go with that FURD stuff:D;);) Just jerkin' ya chain jim;)
396
Did you get Kimmies permision first ???
well 396 is officially owned my kimmy
J/K :cool:

[460 jus getn it]

Did you get Kimmies permision first ???
J/K :cool:
:argue: :argue: :argue: :D :D :D :D