View Full Version : So I'm playing with the household...
Wet Dream
10-23-2005, 02:44 PM
So I'm playing with the household circuit breakers and electrical panel trying to figure out what the hell is going on with my lighting. Did you know that after so many times of being electricuted, you begin to have a sulphur/ coppery taste in your mouth. :220v:
soupersonic
10-23-2005, 03:08 PM
whats wrong ? maybe i can help
Wet Dream
10-23-2005, 03:45 PM
Lights flickering all over the house. One room dims, another gets brighter. This happens all over the house. I'm thinking I have it narrowed down to the breaker box. For some reason, I have 4 circuits (20A) on the buss bar that have no power at the bar. But the 4 above and the 4 below do. Also, one of the 30A that power the dryer has power, the other doesn't. This is a Federal box. I haven't heard anything great about them This just happened today after hitting start on the microwave. Dimming all over the kitchen and the dining room too, to the point of shutting down the computer. Almost flickering. The breakers didn't trip, but after about 15 minutes, the power came on for a second, then out.
Mrs.Racer277
10-23-2005, 03:50 PM
Be very careful. Geez Ask Boy Named Sue about his electrical shock. :frown:
Froggystyle
10-23-2005, 04:08 PM
My opinion is, and I am not an electrician, is that you may have the same thing going on I had... corrosion on your bus bar. The aluminum contacts in the breakers get corroded when they are in contact with the steel or copper bus bar, and you get a terrible connection. Happened to me in my house.
New bus bar, some new breakers later I am good to go. I sealed it better this time.
Wes
soupersonic
10-23-2005, 04:13 PM
If they are older they might be bad, when they go bad they will be loose and rattle causing the flickering you are describing. They are easy to test if you have a meter. They might be trying to trip and cant for some reason, ive seen it before.It might be the wires are just loose on the breaker also, that happens more often than we would think. With the main off and a good rubber handled screwdriver, use one hand to try tightening them, keeping your other hand free will keep you from getting hung up on the current if you get shocked and it will allow you to be able to pull away.
Forgive me if i am telling you something you dont already know. You sound like you have a good handle on it (except for the getting shocked part lol )
soupersonic
10-23-2005, 04:15 PM
My opinion is, and I am not an electrician, is that you may have the same thing going on I had... corrosion on your bus bar. The aluminum contacts in the breakers get corroded when they are in contact with the steel or copper bus bar, and you get a terrible connection. Happened to me in my house.
New bus bar, some new breakers later I am good to go. I sealed it better this time.
Wes
That can and will happen but most of the newer stuff is all copper now a days, if its aluminum use nolox on the connections (or a good grease) to keep the connection from corroding
shirkey4750
10-23-2005, 04:42 PM
Bill, check the voltage to ground(and neutral) all the way back to your meter box. Sounds like you have a ground problem. Maybe a loose ground on the power company side even. Have seen this happen before. A bad ground will give you fits trying to figure it out.
miketsouth
10-23-2005, 04:50 PM
So I'm playing with the household circuit breakers and electrical panel trying to figure out what the hell is going on with my lighting. Did you know that after so many times of being electricuted, you begin to have a sulphur/ coppery taste in your mouth. :220v:
You have probably lost a mains neutral Bill. It can be bad in the box or at the pole, but i suspect in the box. general wiring diagram (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html)
when you loose a mains neutral, one 120volt leg gets more or less volts than the other one.
bordsmnj
10-23-2005, 05:35 PM
You have probably lost a mains neutral Bill. It can be bad in the box or at the pole, but i suspect in the box. general wiring diagram (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/hsehld.html)
when you loose a mains neutral, one 120volt leg gets more or less volts than the other one.
thats exactly what i thinking as i read this.
soupersonic
10-23-2005, 05:56 PM
the ground is essentially the same as the neutral, therefore the current would return on the ground if you lost a neutral causing the ground to be "hot" and the breakers might not be doing their job by tripping. I doubt that there would be just a few circuits flickering if this was the case ,the whole house would be doing it.Pull one or two of the suspect breakers and check the connection for corrosion, then check the wire connection to the breaker , make sure its tight and not corroded
miketsouth
10-23-2005, 07:06 PM
the ground is essentially the same as the neutral
It is not. The ground is the ground. Things will work fine without a ground. Lift the mains neutral in the panel and you will have problems. Loose contact in the mains
neutral and you will have problems just has he described
the current would return on the ground if you lost a neutral causing the ground to be "hot"
That can happen, but if he lost the neutral connection in the panel it would not return thru the ground
,the whole house would be doing it.
thats what he said, whole house. The most revealing point was some lights get brighter as others get dimmer. If the load was exactly balanced between A and B phase, the neutral has no job to do and everything would be fine.
It is seldom balanced, and thats when the neutral carries the 'unbalanced' load.
When I read this Bill all I could think of is the guy on Howard Stern getting jolted.... :2purples: :220v: :220v: :220v:
soupersonic
10-23-2005, 07:50 PM
It is not. The ground is the ground. Things will work fine without a ground.
Thats why in a res application the grounds are tied to the neutral bar in the panel and in a commercial application the neutral bar is isolated but grounded in the transformer.
UtlGoa
10-23-2005, 08:14 PM
You got GHOSTS!!!!!
Outnumbered
10-23-2005, 10:49 PM
You got GHOSTS!!!!!
Damn, you beat me to it :D
Wet Dream
10-24-2005, 07:29 AM
You got GHOSTS!!!!!
Yes we do, but they usually knock things over. Thats a different story thread. ;)
waterboy
10-24-2005, 10:08 AM
i would call your power company tell them your light are flickering the will send a troubleman out to see if its before or after your panel, they wont charge you anything, we get those all the time here in so.cal. right after the rains is the worst. usually bad nuetral on our side (SCE).
Thats why in a res application the grounds are tied to the nuetral bar in the panel.
Yep. Article 250 of the NEC. Your neutral bar is connected to the ground bar in the panel. Turn the main off and retorque all the ground and nuetral lugs. Make sure the large neutral conductor going out to the meter can is tight too. There should also be a conductor running from the ground bar to a clamp on connector on your water pipe or to a ground rod next to the meter box.
Check the voltage on top of the main breaker, in other words the utility company's side. You should have 120 volts to ground on both. If your service from the utility side is buried, it's not unusual to have one leg short out.
BTW, BE CAREFUL about using any 240 volt appliances like your oven, A/C, dryer, or water heater until you know that both "hot" legs of your power are OK. It won't really hurt resistive loads like the oven or dryer, but it'll fry your air conditioner if one leg is dead.
bordsmnj
10-24-2005, 11:32 AM
Thats why in a res application the grounds are tied to the neutral bar in the panel and in a commercial application the neutral bar is isolated but grounded in the transformer.
the nuetral is ALWAYS bonded at the service(meter) and anywhere a new system is derived(transformer)that has a nuetral. commercial or residential.
in a three wire single phase system(typical residential) when you loose the nuetral you create a basic voltage divider circuit. the voltage varies depending on the different loads attached.
in a three wire single phase system(typical residential) when you loose the nuetral you create a basic voltage divider circuit. the voltage varies depending on the different loads attached.
And makes for some weird stuff if you don't know what he's saying. Let's sustitute pressure for voltage. Think of ground as zero psi. The "hot" side of your service is two 120 volt conductors, or 120 psi for our Dr.Science example.
If the neutral isn't connected to ground, then the voltages have no reference. Where's 0 volts? You can't tell. So when you measure the voltage, you might read 220 V on one side, 20 V on the other, and neutral would have 100 V compared to 0 V for ground. So ground is the 0 reference, and neutral must be connected to it. Otherwise electric loads like your TV go bonkers because they don't receive the proper voltage.
Anybody out there ever own an old British car? They had the 12 volt positive connected to ground, so everything in the car worked on -12 volts. Lotsa peeps melted down an MG trying to jump start it. :D
The telecom industry standard is -48 volts DC. I install huge DC power plants and the positive is grounded, so the voltage performing the work is negative, or less than ground. Some older radio equipment operates on -24 volts DC.
So the purpose of a ground connection is to provide a reference for the voltage, regardless of its attachment point to the electric circuit.
I like to compare voltage to psi in a pipe, and electrical current to flow in the pipe using gallons per minute. The work being accomplished is akin to filling a tank. If you have a 35,000 volt transmission line, it doesn't take much amperage to do a lot of work, just as a 36" diameter pipe will fill a tank pretty quick even if the flow is not that fast.
That's why overhead transmission lines are so small. Lotsa voltage, not much current.
Jeez, this is all boring, huh? :hammer2: :hammer2:
Wet Dream
10-24-2005, 03:43 PM
Here is a photo of the breaker box. The blank space between the breakers is the spot thats dead. This is the only section that accepts breakers. If you notice the lower blanks, they are not notched, but have power to them. Go figure. I would like to put the breakers in this area, but to switch out the plates, you have to disassemble the whole thing.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/352Mvc-847f.jpg
mike37
10-24-2005, 03:58 PM
Here is a photo of the breaker box. The blank space between the breakers is the spot thats dead. This is the only section that accepts breakers. If you notice the lower blanks, they are not notched, but have power to them. Go figure. I would like to put the breakers in this area, but to switch out the plates, you have to disassemble the whole thing.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/352Mvc-847f.jpg
im not and expert but if you dont have power to all of the spots that breaker can be inserted then you have a problem in your main box or somewhere back to the transformer not in the house
Wet Dream
10-24-2005, 05:20 PM
I agree. I think this box is the culprit. If you notice, the top breakers have 2 wires attached to each breaker. Since I had to remove the breakers from the dead spot and include them in the area above, the dimming has stopped. But unfortunately the house is running off of 4 breakers instead of 8. I have to watch how many things are on at the same time so I don't overload the system.
soupersonic
10-24-2005, 05:26 PM
So without that "notch" in the buss the breaker wont go in ? I see the difference in the two, but who the hell would make a panel you have to take apart to move breaker from one spot to another? I would replace that bastard in a heartbeat.
Wet Dream
10-24-2005, 05:30 PM
It is getting reaplaced next weekend. I'm going to a 200 amp service box. Why they made it that way is beyond me, but I guess its to keep the amount of available service down so that you don't overload it. When the electrician was here last week, he couldn't find anything, but noted that this "Federal Power" box was nicknamed Federal Fire Starter. Its gone. ;)
mike37
10-24-2005, 07:20 PM
Here is a photo of the breaker box. The blank space between the breakers is the spot thats dead. This is the only section that accepts breakers. If you notice the lower blanks, they are not notched, but have power to them. Go figure. I would like to put the breakers in this area, but to switch out the plates, you have to disassemble the whole thing.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/352Mvc-847f.jpg
Im looking at the pic and the bottom right breaker is a 220V breaker
but the wiers only connect to one side of the circuit thats bad news
that may be causing some of you problems if you running a 220V circuit of one side of the buss
It is getting reaplaced next weekend. I'm going to a 200 amp service box. Why they made it that way is beyond me, but I guess its to keep the amount of available service down so that you don't overload it. When the electrician was here last week, he couldn't find anything, but noted that this "Federal Power" box was nicknamed Federal Fire Starter. Its gone. ;)
Heheh, when we bought "this old house", one of the first things to go was the Federal panel. If it was mounted horizontally instead of vertically it would have made a great bread warmer.... :220v: :220v:
Im looking at the pic and the bottom right breaker is a 220V breaker
but the wiers only connect to one side of the circuit thats bad news
that may be causing some of you problems if you running a 220V circuit of one side of the buss
Good call, notice there are two wires landed on one pole of the two pole breaker....
Wet Dream
10-26-2005, 10:49 AM
Goes to show what I know about wiring a f'ing box. But, in my defense, there was already one wire attached to the lower right, so in removing one of the now missing breakers, I moved one wire down there, with the other. NO, they are not feeding the same area in the house. Is this still a bad thing? :hammerhea Ok, so if remove this 220 breaker on the right and replace it with (2) 110 20A breakers (as seen in the box), and run one wire to each breaker, will this help?
rrrr, thats exactly what this is...this old house. Best records put it just over 85 years old. This place used to be lit by gas or oil.
mike37
10-26-2005, 03:22 PM
Goes to show what I know about wiring a f'ing box. But, in my defense, there was already one wire attached to the lower right, so in removing one of the now missing breakers, I moved one wire down there, with the other. NO, they are not feeding the same area in the house. Is this still a bad thing? :hammerhea Ok, so if remove this 220 breaker on the right and replace it with (2) 110 20A breakers (as seen in the box), and run one wire to each breaker, will this help?
rrrr, thats exactly what this is...this old house. Best records put it just over 85 years old. This place used to be lit by gas or oil.
I have one more question the to breakers bottom left
one has a red wire and the other black is that a 220v that they are supplying
MsDrmr
10-26-2005, 03:25 PM
be careful, thats really nothing to play around with.
mike37
10-26-2005, 03:46 PM
be careful, thats really nothing to play around with.
just use you tounge to see if its a live circuit :eek: just like a 9V battery JK
shaffewm
10-26-2005, 03:49 PM
Lights flickering all over the house. One room dims, another gets brighter. This happens all over the house. I'm thinking I have it narrowed down to the breaker box. For some reason, I have 4 circuits (20A) on the buss bar that have no power at the bar. But the 4 above and the 4 below do. Also, one of the 30A that power the dryer has power, the other doesn't. This is a Federal box. I haven't heard anything great about them This just happened today after hitting start on the microwave. Dimming all over the kitchen and the dining room too, to the point of shutting down the computer. Almost flickering. The breakers didn't trip, but after about 15 minutes, the power came on for a second, then out.
without reading through the whole thread...it sounds like you have a bad neutral...call edison and have them come out and check the service lines into the house...its very common especially after rain..most likely its on the sce side and they will fix it at no charge..don't call sce..they are in ca. call whoever your power co. is in pa....
91nordic29
10-26-2005, 03:56 PM
Damn, you beat me to it :D
me too!
91nordic29
10-26-2005, 03:57 PM
just use you tounge to see if its a live circuit :eek: just like a 9V battery JK
i cant believe we did that as kids! which teenager was responsible for that i wonder? always trying to get the little ones to do something stupid! :wink:
mike37
10-26-2005, 04:08 PM
i cant believe we did that as kids! which teenager was responsible for that i wonder? always trying to get the little ones to do something stupid! :wink:
Oh come on you know you liked it
Post a pic of the whole box. This looks like a sub-panel inside of the home.
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