BBF 460 Rebuild

[Sanger Jet]

What would you do?

[BIGAMIST]

Buy a Chevy

[YeLLowBoaT]

It all really depends on what you want to do with the boat. personally i would take it down the machine shop I use and say " I want 500 hp do what you can do with $( fill in the blank) much."

[Squirtcha?]

It all really depends on what you want to do with the boat. personally i would take it down the machine shop I use and say " I want 500 hp do what you can do with $( fill in the blank) much."
I agree about the money part, however I'd be sure to play an active role in choosing the parts that were going in it. It'd be pretty easy to make 500 hp even with crap parts, but how long would it last? I'd at least pick out the hardware that's gonna hold it together (ARP fastners etc.), heads (if aftermarket), main and cam bearings, pistons, rings, cam and springs, conversion for roller rockers (if you're figuring on using the stock heads), hardened pushrods with guideplates etc.
I did exactly what was suggest above a few years back and I got burned big time. I trusted a shop to pick the parts and it failed shortly after cam breakin. Never again. If you've got a shop that you've used before and trust it may be a different story.
My second rebuild (don't ask) is going on 5 seasons and still running strong, but when I do it again.........it'll be a stroker. It doesn't cost a ton more money and cubes are good.
I mean no offense yellowboat...............it's just my story.
Click on my boardname above and then go to my homepage. All the sickening details are in there on page 3 & 4.
I'm not a master engine builder and never professed to be. I do all my own rigging, maintenance, wiring, cables, setup work, rebuilt my carbs, converted to a tunnelram, blueprinted the bottom etc, etc, but I entrusted the motor rebuild to those idiots. Hell they must know what they're doing.............they're professionals right?
My ass.

[Squirtin Thunder]

Ask me !!!

[LakesOnly]

What would you do?Depends on application, what parts you have to work with and how much you want to spend.
Looking at your boat and thereby assuming what engine parts you have, I'd recommend you buy a 502 stroker kit for the bottom end, port the snot out of the heads, cam, valve train and induction and you're pretty much done.
Details to the above recommendation are dependent on your specific "wants" & "needs."
If you have any questions about setting up you engine to perform just how you want it to, feel free to send me a PM and I'll be happy to help with as much free advice as I can offer.
LO
p.s.: If your 460 engine is running fine/reliably and you just want some more power, it may not be necessary to rebuild at all; more power is in the stock engine, you just need to know where to reach in and get it.

[Sanger Jet]

Ask me !!!
I sent you an email Jim

[LakesOnly]

Buy a Chevy Bigamist, now you be nice to Sanger Jet. Just because he is new around here doesn't mean you should try to steer him towards an antiquated engine design when he already has something that is so much superior to your recommendation. :D
Actually, believe it or not, I'm picking up a GM product this weekend. I'm bringing home a 1964 GTO. :D And yes, I'm putting a real motor in it; it's getting a Ford.
;)
LO

[FASTRAT]

What would you do?
i agree with Squirtcha?...if ur mech inclined...i would build it my self...u can build a very reliable 460/466 for not alot of money...there are alot of people on the boards who can help u out...ck with Squirtcha?...Squirtin Thunder...460 just_gettin_it & others...they have gd running mtrs & wont steer u wrong with what works & what doesnt...just my .02 cents
fastrat

[Sanger Jet]

I used Squirtcha's boatisserie Idea to do the bottom already

[FASTRAT]

Actually, believe it or not, I'm picking up a GM product this weekend. I'm bringing home a 1964 GTO. :D And yes, I'm putting a real motor in it; it's getting a Ford.
;)
LO
why would u want to put a Ford mtr in a classic???...if its got the 389...why not put tri-power or 2x4's on it & have a "real" classic...not too mention...FAST...especially if its got a 4 speed
fastrat

[YeLLowBoaT]

Just pray it does not have a 421...... I really loved paying 1300 for pistons and pins for my 421... atleast ross has a new forging cuzz of me.....

[dmontzsta]

Its all about the $$$.
Ntwotrance on the boards was having some issues with his motor. We put a rebuilt in his boat for around $1k and it runs like a champion now, this is with a mild cam, but stock everything else.
If you want a little kick in the butt, then I would talk to Paul, he could put together a near factory spec motor that can kick some ass.

[FASTRAT]

Just pray it does not have a 421...... I really loved paying 1300 for pistons and pins for my 421... atleast ross has a new forging cuzz of me.....
ouch!!!...i think u really got stung...hard to believe p&p cost that much...u should have gone to the drag races & talked to some of the people that run 421's...they are out there (not many) & they run strong...bk in the day...a gd runnin' 421 turned some gd times in pretty much stock form from the factory...i raced against alot of them with my 406ci Ford
fastrat

[YeLLowBoaT]

ouch!!!...i think u really got stung...hard to believe p&p cost that much...u should have gone to the drag races & talked to some of the people that run 421's...they are out there (not many) & they run strong...bk in the day...a gd runnin' 421 turned some gd times in pretty much stock form from the factory...i raced against alot of them with my 406ci Ford
fastrat
I could have gotten them alot cheaper if I had just gotten stock replacments. Or even thier stock "custom" dished pistons, but i wanted to get under 10 to 1 cr. so I had them dish them a little more and they moved the pin. Then I got dumb and had the skirts coated.... anyways I could have gotten out of there for under 800 if I had not had so much done to them. I figured it was better to pay more up front and run on pump gas, then pay more for gas latter.

[Squirtin Thunder]

I sent you an email Jim
Don't have one from you send again please !!!

[b's sanger]

Spend your money on the bottom end to start. You can upgrade and bolt on later when budget allows.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Spend your $$$ wiswly and you can do well. A buddy & I are putting a 460 together for his Omega and he wants to keep up with my 454 Taylor. We both have budgets but (bad for him) I'm a year ahead in upgrades on him.
The stock 460 crank can take a bundle of HP. In researching it, I discovered the ONLY factory forged crank motor was the BOSS 429. ALL the cobra-jets (and super CJ's) have carried cast iron cranks so I wouldn't spend money there except for a blower-motor. The worst thing a 460 has to fight is heads. The standard wedge heads are not good breathers (especially compared to a rat-motor) and the late-model ones have badly blocked exhaust ports by a "lump" in the top of the port outboard of the valve. The only way to avoid a porting job is aftermarket Cobra-Jet heads IMO, and the cost of THAT will about equal the porting work. If you can find a set of wedge heads with casting "D0VE", they are an early 70's head and have the least restrictions to start with. We found a set. Top it with a good intake (we are using a Performer RPM Air Gap just like my Chevy, I love it), a good set of exhausts and 500 HP ought to be easy enough arround 5K to 5500 RPM.
I like Clevite 77 bearings, Speed-pro provided my 454 double-molly ring set, A good true-roller cam-chain setup is money well spent IMO (about $100 only) (I bought billet from Comp). DuaneHTP has a really good mid-range jet-boat custom grind cam (I'm running it Hydraulic, Sam will be too). The base specs are .565" lift, 280* duration but the ramps are cut steeper than a std Isky cam so more lift is had sooner, and kept longer. My kit was $400 last winter and runs HARD. I'm happy pushing 350 HP thru my logs, should be right at 400 through headers by spring, 475 or so with a porting job next winter.
Best of luck to ya. :mix:

[Squirtin Thunder]

Starting point;
D0VE head with 87cc chambers/CJ valves
Flat top TRW pistons .030
Stealth/Holley 850DP
1.7 rockers and a comp XM278H cam
.........A2.....A.......B.......C...
4600 363.9 308.6 264.2 222.1
4700 387.1 329.4 282.0 236.3
4800 411.3 351.1 300.5 251.2
4900 436.5 373.7 319.8 266.7
5000 462.6 397.3 340.0 282.8
5100 489.8 421.8 361.0 299.5
5200 517.9 447.4 382.8 316.8
5300 547.1 473.9 405.5 334.8
5400 577.4 501.5 429.1 353.4
5500 608.7 530.2 453.6 372.7
5600 641.1 560.0 479.0 392.7
5700 674.7 590.8 505.3 413.4
5800 709.3 622.7 532.6 434.7
5900 745.1 655.8 560.9 456.8
6000 782.0 690.1 590.1 479.6
6100 820.1 725.5 620.3 503.1
6200 859.5 762.2 651.6 527.4
5200@78.3mph

[LakesOnly]

why would u want to put a Ford mtr in a classic???...if its got the 389...why not put tri-power or 2x4's on it & have a "real" classic...not too mention...FAST...especially if its got a 4 speed
fastrat'Rat, no disrespect to the Pontiac motors. In fact, I have a backburner project I am trying to get back in the water with a friend...an old Belmont flat with a 4-Bolt 428 Pontiac in it with CNC ported iron heads, Carillo rods, pair of 660's, etc. The spare, just freshened engine is a Blown 455 Poncho.
The '64 GTO roller chassis I am picking up will not be butchered; I intend that all necessary modifications to install the Ford engine will performed in such a way that the car will still be restorable to "correct" specifications. But the Ford engine, it will get. All 569 cubes of it. :D
LO

[Ralph Brunt]

i was in the same situation as you i talked to paul aka lakes only and it seemed the only reasonable way to go was the stroker kit 1,300 out the door if you got that i think you would be happy mine is not together as of yet but i am happy so far. check out the 502 oil thread in gearheads sec some good pics there. any way you go there is lots of help and opinions lol ralph

[YeLLowBoaT]

'Rat, no disrespect to the Pontiac motors. In fact, I have a backburner project I am trying to get back in the water with a friend...an old Belmont flat with a 4-Bolt 428 in it with CNC ported iron heads, Carillo rods, pair of 660's, etc. The spare, just freshened engine is a Blown 455 Poncho.
The '64 GTO roller chassis I am picking up will not be butchered; I intend that all necessary modifications to install the Ford engine will performed in such a way that the car will still be restorable to "correct" specifications. But the Ford engine, it will get. All 569 cubes of it. :D
LO
Just wondering who did they get to do the CNC on iron pontiac heads??? I might be intresed in that for my heads.

[Squirtcha?]

Starting point;
D0VE head with 87cc chambers/CJ valves
?
Is this a typo? I always thought the Dove and C8ve heads had 75-77cc chambers?
Hell SmokinLowriderSS .............you're starting to sound like a Ford man.

[b's sanger]

?
Is this a typo? I always thought the Dove and C8ve heads had 75-77cc chambers
I vote "typo"

[LakesOnly]

The stock 460 crank can take a bundle of HP.True. My business partner subjected the stock cast iron block, heads, and CAST crank to blown nitromethane and did a 7.14 in the quarter mile. Stock oem main bolts and head bolts too. HP was estimated at 1800HP. Indeed, lots of prep work went into the motor/parts, but the capability is certainly there. The strength of the 460 crank comes primarily from the very wide cross section of journal overlap between the 3.00" mains and the 2.500" rod journals (0.825" at its widest cross-section) and also from the raw material used to cast it.
In researching it, I discovered the ONLY factory forged crank motor was the BOSS 429.Uh, not exactly true. There is an elusive forged 429 crank available that did not come in Boss engines. You need to search high and low to find them in yards, but they're out there. I have one myself. Private party sellers who know what they have seem to get about $300 for them. Nevertheless, this is a mute point since the passenger car cast crank is so damn strong to begin with. Truck pulllers I know turn them to as high as 9500 rpm. Besides, the Forged 4.3 stroker cranks are on the boat as we speak...should be here by year's end.
The worst thing a 460 has to fight is heads. The standard wedge heads are not good breathers (especially compared to a rat-motor) Compared to rat motor heads of the same era, the chebby's intake ports don't surpass the 460's awesome intake port architecture, in my opinion. But indeed, the Ford's exhaust port flow is dismal as delivered from the factory. This however can be alleviated. The proper exhaust port shape necessary for good flow has been unlocked and the cast iron passenger car 429/460 heads are now supporting in excess of 700HP on naturally aspirated engines.
and the late-model ones have badly blocked exhaust ports by a "lump" in the top of the port outboard of the valve.They ALL have this feature, but this is addressable (see above).
The only way to avoid a porting job is aftermarket Cobra-Jet heads IMO, and the cost of THAT will about equal the porting work. If ported iron heads cost as much as aluminum ones, everyone would buy aluminum heads and iron head porters would practically be out of business. Setting up a set of ported iron heads is still cheaper and in some cases the way to go.
If you can find a set of wedge heads with casting "D0VE", they are an early 70's head and have the least restrictions to start with. We found a set. Top it with a good intake (we are using a Performer RPM Air Gap just like my Chevy, I love it), a good set of exhausts and 500 HP ought to be easy enough arround 5K to 5500 RPM.Early-style cylinder heads that are identical in casting architecture, valve sizes, port volume, combustion chamber volume, etc, include C8VE-A, C8VE-E, C9VE-E, D0VE-A, D0VE-C and D1VE-A. Once ported and prepped, you can run one of these heads on one cylinder bank and another casting # on the other cylinder bank and the engine won't know the difference.
I like Clevite 77 bearings... For a jet boat that tyopixcally runs above 3500 rpm to 5500+, use the 3/4-grooved Federal Mogul 134M main bearings.
LO

[Squirtin Thunder]

?
Is this a typo? I always thought the Dove and C8ve heads had 75-77cc chambers?
Hell SmokinLowriderSS .............you're starting to sound like a Ford man.
It was 78 cc I am sorry for the typo !!!

[LakesOnly]

Just wondering who did they get to do the CNC on iron pontiac heads??? I might be interested in that for my heads.
That CNC program is in a Bridgeport mill that belongs to a good friend of mine. He owned a machine shop and raced boats. He got out of boat racing (did 187MPH in a hydro with that Blown 455 Pontiac), closed the machine shop business and became Chief Mechanical Engineeer for a major cruise line. He has been bitten by the bug again and we hope to have the CNC mill and the SF600, etc., back on line in the spring (I hope). I'll let you know.
LO