Oil Pump????

[HammerDown]

Hi Volume or standard??? Mellings # M77HV. It comes with my new Milodon Jet oil Pan.
I belive my Crank Clearances were 2.50 and I prefer straight wt 40 oil.
Thanks for any input...

[Blown 472]

For what is it worth, I bought a mildon set up and the oil pressure was the same no matter what, cold or hot engine, I ripped it out and looked at it and called mildon and they said that is normal, not in there anymore after smoking a bearing it lost it's life and ended up in the broken parts box.

[GofastRacer]

I've always used a standard pump, never found any benefit to a high volume one. It just takes more power to operate. You can only push so much oil through the passages. All I do is blueprint it and shim the spring for more pressure, full throttle is at least 70 lbs with 40wt!. :cool:

[HammerDown]

Blown 472:
For what is it worth, I bought a mildon set up and the oil pressure was the same no matter what, cold or hot engine, I ripped it out and looked at it and called mildon and they said that is normal, not in there anymore after smoking a bearing it lost it's life and ended up in the broken parts box. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Just wondering, when you say you bought a "Milodon setup"...was that the Pan with the Mellings High Volume pump W/ pick-up? Or just the Pan?
I wonder why the oil psi would be the same cold or hot. How about Idle vs higher rpm's psi? Also I'm wondering why a cooked bearing with all that psi?
The pan I'm looking to get is a Miloden #31557 comes with a Mellings M77HV and the pick/up, I don't know if I can swap it out with the standard "M77" pump.
And true I don't see any issues with my standard pump...just looking for any pro/con's with the Hi-Volume one.
Thanks for your input...

[Blown 472]

I bought the pump, pan, and pick up. I dont know why the same psi all the time, it was 60 psi hot or cold, checked the bypass spring and it all seemed to move fine, I put a stock cj pump in it now and will see what happens.

[HammerDown]

Intresting...I've come to find that all Mercruiser motors come with Mellings # M77HV (high Volume) pumps. And also that Melling makes ALL and everyones pumps out there, even GM's.
At least thats what I was told.
The above came from FlatLander Racing...I'll be calling Melling's Monday. I tend to be a educated consumer....for some things :rolleyes:

[LeE ss13]

GofastRacer:
I've always used a standard pump, never found any benefit to a high volume one. It just takes more power to operate. You can only push so much oil through the passages. All I do is blueprint it and shim the spring for more pressure, full throttle is at least 70 lbs with 40wt!. :cool: Art !!!! I thought I was the only racer on the planet (besides my late father) that did that !!! And I run 30wt. What I like about a standard pump is that if the oil pressure is any different when you first start it up, then somethings wrong. With a High Volume, the crank can be ground down .010" and the pressure will still be high. And you're right ...why waste the HP turning it.

[Fiat48]

Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins did you guys one better. He ran small block oil pumps rather than big block pumps. :)

[Infomaniac]

Too much oil pressure and too much valve spring tension are both big wastes of HP.

[slotracer]

i am putting a 454 back together and was wondering how do you blue print a pump?
any help would be great. thanks
pat(slotracer) :D

[HammerDown]

SLOTRACER:
i am putting a 454 back together and was wondering how do you blue print a pump?
any help would be great. thanks
pat(slotracer) :D I belive the only thing we can do is to remove the 2 gears, and lessen the clearance between the pump body gears and cover. This can be done by doing figure 8's with the pump body on a dead flat surface with 600 emery paper. At least thats how I did it for my 454 oil pump and also how I do it for Harley oil pumps...and there pretty much the same thing. Care must be taken so as not to take so much off to allow the gears to bind on the cover plate w/gasket installed.

[slotracer]

so basiclly is what you do then is close up the clearence between the gears and the cover to make it a little tighter. thanks pat(slotracer) :D

[GofastRacer]

Ok, here's what ya do to a stock pump!. Take the pump completely apart, add the pressure-balance grooves according to the pics(to eliminate cavitation and spark scatter), now put the gears back in and check clearance between the cover and gears with a depth mike(I've seen as much as .006 on a production pump), clearance should be .0025, I wouldn't go any less!. Use a good flat surface and sand the housing down until you get the right clearance, now take the cover and sand it nice and smooth for a good seal against the housing since there is no gasket. To add pressure this can be a guess, one or two AN washers should do it but that depends a lot on clearances and type of oil?. BTW, I can't take credit for this, I learned this from the "Grump" way back in the day! and it works!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/12Oil_Pump-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/12Oil_Pump_2-med.jpg

[slotracer]

what do you use to grind the grooves in the
housing? thanks pat(slotracer) :D

[GofastRacer]

I use a Dremel but any grinder with a small bit will do!. :cool:

[slotracer]

great i have a dremel thanks for all the help.
pat(slotracer) :D

[Rexone]

I know Moroso used to offer a pump with these grooves already in it (blueprinted pump). Just info for those who might not want to tackle it. I would still check the gear clearence though no matter what the source of the pump. :)

[GofastRacer]

SLOTRACER:
great i have a dremel thanks for all the help.
pat(slotracer) :D Anytime!.. :cool:

[GofastRacer]

Rexone:
I know Moroso used to offer a pump with these grooves already in it (blueprinted pump). Just info for those who might not want to tackle it. I would still check the gear clearence though no matter what the source of the pump. :) Yeah, I think they still do and it's a high volume pump!..

[slotracer]

in a bbc with 049 heads with a comp hyd. xe284 cam in a jetboat does it really matter if you
run a stock pump or a h.v. pump? thanks
pat(slotracer) :D

[HammerDown]

Gofastracer, good pics with the grooves...I did'nt know quite how to explane it. And if done wrong could mean trouble.
[ March 31, 2003, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: HammerDown ]

[21rayson]

i just bought a mellings race pump the numbers are 1077 instead of hv77 anybody have any thoughts about this one.

[GofastRacer]

SLOTRACER:
in a bbc with 049 heads with a comp hyd. xe284 cam in a jetboat does it really matter if you
run a stock pump or a h.v. pump? thanks
pat(slotracer) :D A stock pump is more than adequate!. :cool:

[GofastRacer]

21rayson:
i just bought a mellings race pump the numbers are 1077 instead of hv77 anybody have any thoughts about this one. Numbers ring a bell but can't place it, got a stocker?, take it apart and compare them!. :confused:

[GofastRacer]

HammerDown:
Infomaniac, good pics with the grooves...I did'nt know quite how to explane it. And if done wrong could mean trouble. "Infomaniac", DAMN, am I that ugly!.. eek! eek! :D :D :D

[Infomaniac]

Ouch.
If this was the blower motor section I could have switched the identity. Since it is not I will have to direct credit back to GFR.
Either that or learn how to make my boat turn.
Those are good tricks but have not found it necessary unless RPM's to the moon or endurance boating.

[GofastRacer]

Infomaniac:
Too much oil pressure and too much valve spring tension are both big wastes of HP. Yup!.. :)

[GofastRacer]

Infomaniac:
Ouch.
If this was the blower motor section I could have switched the identity. Since it is not I will have to direct credit back to GFR.
Either that or learn how to make my boat turn.
Those are good tricks but have not found it necessary unless RPM's to the moon or endurance boating. True, the benefits are appreciated more on the high end but what the heck, it don't hurt and it don't cost anything and you have an nice efficient pump. I have had the occasion to lose contact with the water a few times wiiiinnnng!. eek!
"Either that or learn how to make my boat turn" Dump it, turn the wheel, stand on it!.. eek! :D :D :D

[GofastRacer]

21rayson:
i just bought a mellings race pump the numbers are 1077 instead of hv77 anybody have any thoughts about this one. Found it, 1077 is a stock pump, M-77hv is the high volume pump!. :)
Melling (http://www.melling.com/products/results.asp?Category=1)

[HammerDown]

Gofast...sorry about that, Correction made above. Your pic...you get the credit.

[HammerDown]

Intresting Read from the Mellings Web Site>>>
**************************************************
*High Volume Pumps: Advantages, Myths & Fables
Most of the stock automobile engines are designed to operate from idle to 4500 RPM. The original volume and pressure oil pump will work fine in this type of application. As the demands on the engine increase so does the demands on the oiling system and pump.
The oil pump's most difficult task is to supply oil to the connecting rod bearing that is the farthest from the pump. To reach this bearing, the oil travels from three to four feet, turns numerous square corners thru small holes in the crankshaft to the rod bearing. The rod bearing doesn't help matters. It is traveling in a circle which means centrifugal force is pulling the oil out of the bearing.
A 350 Chevy has a 3.4811 stroke and a 2.111 rod journal. The outer edge of the journal travels 17.5311 every revolution. At 1000 RPM, the outer edge is traveling at 16.6 MPH and 74.7 MPH at 4500 RPM. If we take this engine to 6500 the outer edge is up to 107.9 and at 8500 it is 141.1 MPH. Now imagine driving a car around a curve at those speeds and you can feel the centrifugal force. Now imagine doing it around a circle with a 5.581, diameter.
The size of the gears or rotors determines the amount of oil a pump can move at any given RPM. Resistance to this movement creates the pressure. If a pump is not large enough to meet the demands of the engine, there will not be any pressure. Or if the demands of the engine are increased beyond the pumps capabilities there will be a loss of oil pressure. This is where high volume pumps come in; they take care of any increased demands of the engine.
Increases in the engine's oil requirements come from higher RPM, being able to rev faster, increased bearing clearances, remote oil cooler and/or filter and any combination of these. Most high volume pumps also have a increase in pressure to help get the oil out to the bearings faster.
That is what a high volume pump will do. Now let Is consider what it will not do.
It will not replace a rebuild in a worn-out engine. It may increase pressure but the engine is still worn-out.
It will not pump the oil pan dry. Both solid and hydraulic lifters have metering valves to limit flow of the oil to the top of the engine. If a pan is pumped dry, it is because the holes that drain oil back to the pan are plugged. If the high volume pump is also higher pressure, there will be a slight increase in flow to the top.
It will not wear out distributor gears. The load on the gear is directly related to the resistance to flow. Oil pressure is the measure of resistance to flow. The Ford 427 FE "side oiler" used a pump with relief valve set at 125 psi and it used a standard distributor gear. Distributor gear failures are usually caused by a worn gear on a new cam gear and/or worn bearings allowing misalignment.
It will not cause foaming of the oil. With any oil pump, the excess oil not needed by the engine is recirculated within the pump. Any additional foaming is usually created by revving the engine higher. The oil thrown from the rod bearings is going faster and causes the foaming. This is why high performance engines use a windage tray.
It will not cause spark scatter. Because of the pump pressure there is a load on the distributor gear. The number of teeth on the oil pump gears determine the number of impulses per revolution of the pump. In a SB Chevy there are seven teeth on each gear giving 14 impulses per revolution. At 6000 RPM the oil pump is turning 3000 RPM or 50 revolutions per second. To have an effect on the distributor, these impulses would have to vibrate the distributor gear through an intermediate shaft that has loose connections at both ends. Spark scatter is usually caused by weak springs in the points or dust inside the distributor cap.
High volume pumps can be a big advantage if used where needed. If installed in an engine that does not need the additional volume, they will not create a problem. The additional flow will be recirculated within the pump.

[GofastRacer]

LOL, I was just being a smartass! wink :D :D

[Rexone]

That's some pretty informative stuff there Hammer. Thanks

[HammerDown]

Rexone:
That's some pretty informative stuff there Hammer. Thanks I guess to sum it would be to say...if your pushing oil through extra things like a Oil Coolers, Twin Remote Filters or some other contraption the standard Oil Pump is more than adequate to do the job. Or to quote the Tech rep from Mellings "I really don't see any reason to use a HV/HP pump unless the situation calls for it, but it certainly won't hurt anything"
Uh...ok.

[058]

Hammerdown, That sounds like the article that was in "Precision Engine" written by the people at Melling. I agree with you and that article. At higher rpm the crank will accually draw oil into itself from the centrifical force and hydraulic action that could cause a drop in oil pressure. I'd like to correct one thing you said about the Ford 427 with the 125 lb relief spring, that is only half true as that 125 lb. spring is in the pump and for cold starts only, the 70 lb. spring is in the back of the block to assure even pressure through the whole system. The engine has 2 relief valves.

[HammerDown]

The Madness has ended...went down to a local Auto Zone...and bought a M77-HV pump.(thats all they carry)! If theres a reason that Mercuiser is using them on ALL there motors...thats good enough reason for me.

[HammerDown]

GofastRacer:
21rayson:
i just bought a mellings race pump the numbers are 1077 instead of hv77 anybody have any thoughts about this one. Found it, 1077 is a stock pump, M-77hv is the high volume pump!. :)
Melling (http://www.melling.com/products/results.asp?Category=1) Hmmm, if 1077 is the stock BBC Pump. Then whats a M77 ?

[PC Rat]

Ok, here's what ya do to a stock pump!. Take the pump completely apart, add the pressure-balance grooves according to the pics(to eliminate cavitation and spark scatter), now put the gears back in and check clearance between the cover and gears with a depth mike(I've seen as much as .006 on a production pump), clearance should be .0025, I wouldn't go any less!. Use a good flat surface and sand the housing down until you get the right clearance, now take the cover and sand it nice and smooth for a good seal against the housing since there is no gasket. To add pressure this can be a guess, one or two AN washers should do it but that depends a lot on clearances and type of oil?. BTW, I can't take credit for this, I learned this from the "Grump" way back in the day! and it works!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/12Oil_Pump-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/12Oil_Pump_2-med.jpg
GofastRacer,
Do you still have these pictures? Can you repost them or send them to me please, I just bought a new M77 pump and want to do the mods that you suggested.
Brian

[TIMINATOR]

Same oil pressure cold or hot: taking the pressure reading in the wrong place(in back at the filter is wrong,in the front at the main bearing oiling galley is correct) or inadequate bearing clearances(the bypass spring is open all the time). This is for a BBChevy. The "Grump" was only running for 8 or 9 seconds wide open during a drag race, you may run full open for MINUTES!!! Besides he freshened his motor every race, you might want yours to last the entire season..... We port the oiling system of EVERY engine we build! Since the pressure bypass is in the pump cover,(unless your jet has an FE Ford motor)if there is a misaligned oil passage that doesn't line up or has sharp corners(they all do), the bypass can be open and the bearings can be starving. Lastly: if the oil pressure is inadequate to keep the hydraulic lifters FULLY pumped up you are losing lift and duration of the cam profile, happens all the time, the HP to turn a HI-VOL pump is insignificant next to hydraulic lifter bleed-down. TIMINATOR

[Moneypitt]

The new design mellings pump is the shit......(10777 for BBC)......Check it out. It is the 1st pump I will use "out of the box".........MP

[GofastRacer]

GofastRacer,
Do you still have these pictures? Can you repost them or send them to me please, I just bought a new M77 pump and want to do the mods that you suggested.
Brian
Yeah I still have them somewhere, I'll dig them out and PM them to ya no problem :cool: !..

[GofastRacer]

Same oil pressure cold or hot: taking the pressure reading in the wrong place(in back at the filter is wrong,in the front at the main bearing oiling galley is correct) or inadequate bearing clearances(the bypass spring is open all the time). This is for a BBChevy. The "Grump" was only running for 8 or 9 seconds wide open during a drag race, you may run full open for MINUTES!!! Besides he freshened his motor every race, you might want yours to last the entire season..... We port the oiling system of EVERY engine we build! Since the pressure bypass is in the pump cover,(unless your jet has an FE Ford motor)if there is a misaligned oil passage that doesn't line up or has sharp corners(they all do), the bypass can be open and the bearings can be starving. Lastly: if the oil pressure is inadequate to keep the hydraulic lifters FULLY pumped up you are losing lift and duration of the cam profile, happens all the time, the HP to turn a HI-VOL pump is insignificant next to hydraulic lifter bleed-down. TIMINATOR
"The "Grump" was only running for 8 or 9 seconds wide open during a drag race, you may run full open for MINUTES!!! "
I run mine for 5 laps, 4-5 miles at a time(look at my Avatar)just tore it down after 5 years and it was still like new, just treat it to a new set of rings and threw it back together, getting ready to burn another 40 gals next week at Big River!..

[GofastRacer]

GofastRacer,
Do you still have these pictures? Can you repost them or send them to me please, I just bought a new M77 pump and want to do the mods that you suggested.
Brian
Check your PM's!.. :smile:

[blowngas]

Chevy big blocks don't have the oiling system the aftermarket blocks do, so another old hod rodder trick was to run an additonal line, tubing (depended on how good a bender you are) or hose from the pressure tap back by the filter to the front main where there is normally a 1/8 pipe plug installed on the side of the block----It's sorta like the high volume pump----a little extra doesn't hurt in this application

[meaniam]

Same oil pressure cold or hot: taking the pressure reading in the wrong place(in back at the filter is wrong,in the front at the main bearing oiling galley is correct) or inadequate bearing clearances(the bypass spring is open all the time). This is for a BBChevy. The "Grump" was only running for 8 or 9 seconds wide open during a drag race, you may run full open for MINUTES!!! Besides he freshened his motor every race, you might want yours to last the entire season..... We port the oiling system of EVERY engine we build! Since the pressure bypass is in the pump cover,(unless your jet has an FE Ford motor)if there is a misaligned oil passage that doesn't line up or has sharp corners(they all do), the bypass can be open and the bearings can be starving. Lastly: if the oil pressure is inadequate to keep the hydraulic lifters FULLY pumped up you are losing lift and duration of the cam profile, happens all the time, the HP to turn a HI-VOL pump is insignificant next to hydraulic lifter bleed-down. TIMINATOR hello can any one post pic of this location.( in the front at the main bearing oiling galley is correct) as i have been running my guage from location just above oil filter would like to find most accurate spot