Las Vegas and Lake mead; Please read

[Not So Fast]

I've stopped posting lately mainly because of nothing to say but this subject deserves all of our attention. Las Vegas as some of you know is proposing a plan that will allow them to consruct a 7 mile pipeline that will end up in the middle of the lake for the purpose of dumping effluent waste water from the local sewer treatment plants. This will be millions of gallons, millions! :mad: The dump site just happens to be down stream from where Veags draws thier water, odd :idea: The Mohave County Supervisors oppose this action and so do I. There have been no long term test results as to what this dumping of treated sewer water ( it also includes toxic waste, biological waste and God only knows what else) will do to all of the users downstream. This would obviously include Arizona, So Cal drinking water I assume plus things that are grown with this water, crops, all of the animals that drink the water and last but not least the people that use the Colorado River and lakes downstream for Hoover Dam for recreation!
I think there should be considerable testing done before we start allowing the EVER GROWING VEGAS area or anybody in fact, to start this dumping of effluent water into our water ways without being ABSOLUTLEY, POSITIVLEY, 100% certain of what the results could be!!! Keep in mind this will be a HUGE amount of treated watewater, HUGE!!!!!!!!
If you agree please Email or write to these people and tell them you strongly oppose this project and do not want waste water dumped into our water supply. :crossx: E-mail- eis@cleanwatercoalition.com -Or mail to SCOP EIS Project Manager,PBS&J, 2270 Corporate Circle, Suite 100, Henderson, NV 89074-6382 Please , please let them know how you feel and remember " What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas"
Thanks for your time, peace NSF

[uvindex]

and remember "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas"Sounds like the old saying doesn't apply to Vegas poop! :)

[Jbb]

Yep...Better listen to him.....There is a river here called the Chattahoochie....when I moved here it was everyones playground...rafting trips, boats, canoes,swimming....The city of Atlanta started using it as an
"emergency" overflow to they're water treatment plants...they have an antiquated sewer system and a large population growth...The river now is uninhabitable...why....?...sewage now routinely overflows into the river...a federal judge tried to stop it years ago due to lawsuits and imposed a 10k a day fine.....that was years ago...the city laughs at the fine..and presses on...and the river is destroyed

[Ziggy]

Where does current treated waste water flow??? Thats something I've always wonder being a seaside dweller all my life.

[dirty old man]

treated waste water from LV has been going into Lake Mead for years, but they want to increase the amount, therefore the pipeline. Also, the law requires all dumps to be DOWNSTREAM of any inlets (doesn't that make sense?) You can protest all you like, but I doubt if you can change this. We've all been drinking Lake Mead water for years, no problem so far. You just need to be sure the quality of the waste water is correct.

[Not So Fast]

WOW, only 4 replies on a subject that could possibly affect most of the folks on this board, unreal, have a good turkey day :confused: NSF

[scarabrick2]

I'll be firing off an e mail soon as I get home. I'd like to know the water(waste ) quality. I've done a many of sewer outfalls jobs while in the navy as a diver and the water is always warmer when it comes out. Maybe the lake will warm up? besides that, sometimes by the time they treat the waste it is actually cleaner than the water it's flowing into. Neither to say I disagree with then untill more testing is completed and results are compiled
Rick

[RiverToysJas]

I believe treated water meets pretty high standards of quality. I'd like to see the numbers in this case though.
RTJas :D

[cc322]

Is there another solution? I doubt it. Treated waste water is pumped into the ocean here in Cali OC, key word being treated, I work for a very large water department and test are allready in favor of treated waste water (sewage) being piped into domestic drinking water :yuk: Reclaimed water is allready being used for irragation on greenbelts and golf courses, but it is not ok to drink, where treated wastewater is ok to drink some will argue this. The major factor is with the ever growing population in the west we are running out of drinking water supply, (ground water), so other resources are being explored. Take Lake Havasu, they are in the middle of installing a gravity sewer system in the city which is way better then the septic tanks allready in place. With septic tanks you have a leach line that flows all the liquid out into the ground, and the solids settle on the bottom, to be pumped out later, and some tests have proven that it is getting close to the lake or even have entered the lake, solution, gravity sewer, collects it and send it to a treatment plant, then is used for reclaim or pumped somwhere else possibly the lake. I am not sure if I am in favor of the treated wastewater going into the lakes But I really dont see any other options. There is also alot of tests supporting desalination? where the heavy salt content is taken from sea water and turned into Domestic drinking water we soon will see the out come on this.

[Dusty Times]

Vegas needs to reclaim all of their treated afluent and use it for their golf courses and water features on the strip. Does anyone know how many gallons per day is used for this in the desert city of Las Vegas????????
Millions of gallons!!!!!!!!!

[cc322]

I think some of the big casinos allready have a treatment process on site for there water features

[H20Advantage]

I will shoot an email off on Monday when I get back from Havi.

[burtandnancy]

A thought to consider. All the water on earth has been here from the beginning of time, no more no less. It just changes loction and form. Sea water evaporates, makes clouds, then rain, then rivers and lakes, etc. We are drinking water that was drunk and pissed by dinasours. Water quality is a world wide problem that science and technology are working on 24/7...

[FreshTracks]

I just sent my letter. I have been going to Lake Mead since I was a baby and I am 3rd generation "Meader". I have 5 younger siblings that share our family's love of this beautiful place. I plan to take my kids there one day(when I have them). Everyone, please take the time to write and do what is right for the environment. Not to mention your health.
If I wanted to boat in a toilet, I'd save the 5 hour drive and go to Perris.
And with regards to burtandnacy comment---
The earth has a natural process for filtering and cleaning, however Lake Mead is not natural, it is man made and is too concentrated for the amount of sewage being dumped to be cleaned properly. Dinosaurs were not pissing chemicals that treated their piss nor were millions of them pissing in the same lake.

[Beer-30]

A thought to consider. All the water on earth has been here from the beginning of time, no more no less. It just changes loction and form. Sea water evaporates, makes clouds, then rain, then rivers and lakes, etc. We are drinking water that was drunk and pissed by dinasours. Water quality is a world wide problem that science and technology are working on 24/7...
In addition, people. It's not going to just sit there and be stagnant; it is constantly cycling. It is not raw sewage for crying out loud. I am sure there are more bacteria spores in the air when you walk into WalMart or into the gym than there are in that treated water. If it was really going to hurt anything ecological, I am sure the activists would already be all over it. Relax.

[Rexone]

We are drinking water that was drunk and pissed by dinasours.
:D :D
ok I'm a dumass on water. Question: Where do most inland cities now dump their wastewater? There are some very large inland cities in this country that cannot possibly dump in the ocean. Just curious.

[Beer-30]

:D :D
ok I'm a dumass on water. Question: Where do most inland cities now dump their wastewater? There are some very large inland cities in this country that cannot possibly dump in the ocean. Just curious.
Good question.
Anyway, the water CAN'T be nearly as bad as this stuff: (Elsinore)
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2433water.JPG

[burtandnancy]

Fresh Tracks, think thru it once more, then read Rexone above. I'm outta here, going to go eat some (hopefully flu free) turkey...

[chub]

IMHO Vegas should try and do more with reclaimed water. If any water is treated put it back on the city IE greenbelts and golf courses and all the grounds of the hotels. That has to be alot of I wouldn't say wasted water but it seems to make alot of sense to use reclaimed/treated water for this type of use. That would leave more Mead water for other uses. I think Cali/Ariz. should keep that track also.

[Sleek-Jet]

I'm outraged....
.... that it took NSF this long to find out about this... :crossx: :D

[Not So Fast]

I'm outraged....
.... that it took NSF this long to find out about this... :crossx: :D
S-J, just been waiting for someone to bring it up, okie dokie!!! :cool: NSF

[bigkatboat]

Let me get this straight! Havasu is installing half a billion dollars worth of sewers,(nitrates) so Vegas can pump more UNTESTED reclaimed water into the river? If Vegas has cleaned up the water they intend to dump, why pipe it all the way to Mead? If the water is so clean, why not use it IN TOWN? So now I don't need to go into the channel to swim in chunky water, I'll just jump into any part of the river! NICE! I wonder what it will be like to hit a big brown turd going 120MPH in a boat! Boy! my detail guy is really going to up the bill! " $385.00 for detail. What do you mean, $300.00 for hazardous waste?"

[JustMVG]

I'm firing off an e mail on Monday.
Glad you brought this to our attention.
Thanks NSF!!

[Sleek-Jet]

Check out the website... http://www.cleanwatercoalition.com
It has an outline of the SCOP project as well as the draft EIS.

[FreshTracks]

Fresh Tracks, think thru it once more, then read Rexone above. I'm outta here, going to go eat some (hopefully flu free) turkey...
It's the additional amount that I have a problem with. If we continue to allow them to increase the amount of pollutants because current levels are safe , they will keep doing it until it is too late and the damage has been done. We as boaters can be shallow and greedy and say, "Hey don't f#%k with my lake, I boat there". But seriously, we as humans must have clean water to LIVE, and we are dumping $hit in our very supply of this. What a bunch of morons, and were even bigger ones if we stand around and do nothing. Think about that :hammerhea
Hope your turkey was tasty and flu free :)

[H2OT TIMES]

If there is any question about how clean the water is, how about making hen dump it up stream of their draw site??????????

[Rexone]

:D :D
ok I'm a dumass on water. Question: Where do most inland cities now dump their wastewater? There are some very large inland cities in this country that cannot possibly dump in the ocean. Just curious.
Everyones quick to "not in my lake" and "fire off emails" but emails about what? If treated (not reclaimed) water is drinkable then what is the problem? I don't know I'm asking. As I was with the above post. Got to be some knowledgeable water guys that lurk here.
After all an email saying hey don't dump cleaner water than is in my lake, back in my lake... well how much sense does that make?

[Sleek-Jet]

http://www.snwa.com/html/wr_resource_plan.html
...and here's the document that, in part, outlines reuse plans... check out chapter 3.

[Squirtin Thunder]

If there is any question about how clean the water is, how about making hen dump it up stream of their draw site??????????
Now thats a good point !!! And I think it is a good idea.
Everyones quick to "not in my lake" and "fire off emails" but emails about what? If treated (not reclaimed) water is drinkable then what is the problem? I don't know I'm asking. As I was with the above post. Got to be some knowledgeable water guys that lurk here.
After all an email saying hey don't dump cleaner water than is in my lake, back in my lake... well how much sense does that make?
Mike you remember what happens at Clear Lake, the nice green/blue stuff, around late July right ??? To my understanding that was cause by semi treated waste water.

[Sleek-Jet]

... I don't know I'm asking. As I was with the above post. Got to be some knowledgeable water guys that lurk here.
After all an email saying hey don't dump cleaner water than is in my lake, back in my lake... well how much sense does that make?
Well, since Tucson isn't exactly sitting on a large body of water, I did a little research. The waste water treatment plants here discharge the treated effluent (what a fun word) into what are essentially dry river beds.

[Rexone]

Now thats a good point !!! And I think it is a good idea.
Mike you remember what happens at Clear Lake, the nice green/blue stuff, around late July right ??? To my understanding that was cause by semi treated waste water.
Yes I'm familiar with the algae bloom at Clear Lake and also Elsinore. I'm not aware of the cause at Clear Lake though. But if nutriant rich wastewater is being dumped there my guess is that's a contributing factor. I believe nutriants are one of the things removed in advanced water treatment plants though. And I don't know if algae would even be a concern at a lake like Mead. I think Clear Lake and Elsinore are relatively shallow lakes throughout their surface area.

[Sane Asylum]

I've stopped posting lately mainly because of nothing to say but this subject deserves all of our attention. Las Vegas as some of you know is proposing a plan that will allow them to consruct a 7 mile pipeline that will end up in the middle of the lake for the purpose of dumping effluent waste water from the local sewer treatment plants. This will be millions of gallons, millions! :mad: The dump site just happens to be down stream from where Veags draws thier water, odd :idea: The Mohave County Supervisors oppose this action and so do I. There have been no long term test results as to what this dumping of treated sewer water ( it also includes toxic waste, biological waste and God only knows what else) will do to all of the users downstream. This would obviously include Arizona, So Cal drinking water I assume plus things that are grown with this water, crops, all of the animals that drink the water and last but not least the people that use the Colorado River and lakes downstream for Hoover Dam for recreation!
I think there should be considerable testing done before we start allowing the EVER GROWING VEGAS area or anybody in fact, to start this dumping of effluent water into our water ways without being ABSOLUTLEY, POSITIVLEY, 100% certain of what the results could be!!! Keep in mind this will be a HUGE amount of treated watewater, HUGE!!!!!!!!
If you agree please Email or write to these people and tell them you strongly oppose this project and do not want waste water dumped into our water supply. :crossx: E-mail- eis@cleanwatercoalition.com -Or mail to SCOP EIS Project Manager,PBS&J, 2270 Corporate Circle, Suite 100, Henderson, NV 89074-6382 Please , please let them know how you feel and remember " What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas"
Thanks for your time, peace NSF
Update..........
The council voted a "No Action" vote meaning the proposal won't go forward.....Was in the Phoenix paper yesterday.....

[Sane Asylum]

In addition, people. It's not going to just sit there and be stagnant; it is constantly cycling. It is not raw sewage for crying out loud. I am sure there are more bacteria spores in the air when you walk into WalMart or into the gym than there are in that treated water. If it was really going to hurt anything ecological, I am sure the activists would already be all over it. Relax.
B30.........Hate to tell you but ALL wastewater treatment plants have issues from time to time and it is RAW sewage that is discharged. I've had responsibility to operate two private plants (for companies I've worked for) and worked very closely with the cities plants.....It's not a matter of "if it happens" as much as when it happens.....
Raw sewage will end up in Mead at some point.....

[Beer-30]

Bottom line is, I am quite certain I have been in a lake or two that someone - including myself - has pissed in. I have no doubts that one or two people in the world have crapped in the same bodies of water. I feel confident that I am not the only one who knows this. Yet, we all still wade around in said waters, year after year. Hasn't hurt me yet, to my knowledge.

[wsuwrhr]

:D :D
ok I'm a dumass
:argue: :argue:

[FreshTracks]

Bottom line is, I am quite certain I have been in a lake or two that someone - including myself - has pissed in. I have no doubts that one or two people in the world have crapped in the same bodies of water. I feel confident that I am not the only one who knows this. Yet, we all still wade around in said waters, year after year. Hasn't hurt me yet, to my knowledge.
Who hasn't done a prop check at the lake? One or two people in the world, not an issue, several millions: issue.
I'd bet my boat that amount would hurt you.

[Sane Asylum]

Bottom line is, I am quite certain I have been in a lake or two that someone - including myself - has pissed in. I have no doubts that one or two people in the world have crapped in the same bodies of water. I feel confident that I am not the only one who knows this. Yet, we all still wade around in said waters, year after year. Hasn't hurt me yet, to my knowledge.
And a few hundred people relieving themselves in the lake is the same as a 2-3 hour, 1200-1500gph raw effluent discharge........
Tell you what.........You swim in it after that and let me know how it is.... :crossx:

[Not So Fast]

I'm firing off an e mail on Monday.
Glad you brought this to our attention.
Thanks NSF!!
Your very welcome MANdMVG :D There are some good responses here and some not so good. I'm not saying the sky is falling and I for sure don't know the answer to this but if the water is so clean them why is it being introduced below the pick-up point for L.V.'s water supply :idea: I too have worked around and in crap plants most of my life and as one HB'er said it is not if but when will there be an over flow of raw sewage. Happens in Bolonga Creek near LAX all the time as it does at most treatment plants. I just think there should be further testing. And the NIMBY theory is BUNK, the Colorado River is being abused plenty right now and it affects a large majority of people beside the boating world. JMO :chi: NSF

[Dusty Times]

Hasn't anyone noticed the algae bloom in Lake Mead. It starts in the boulder basin (and remains the strongest there) and migrates to the upper parts of the lake. There are plenty of dry lake beds around Vegas that could be filled if it is so safe. NOT!

[Flashover]

Bottom line is, I am quite certain I have been in a lake or two that someone - including myself - has pissed in. I have no doubts that one or two people in the world have crapped in the same bodies of water. I feel confident that I am not the only one who knows this. Yet, we all still wade around in said waters, year after year. Hasn't hurt me yet, to my knowledge.
Sounds pretty dam gross but i hate to say that it is true. Some people may try to deny it but there is no way you can deny it. this happens all of the time and there is no getting around it. Just try not to think about it when you are at the lake..

[Dusty Times]

I haven't heard about the Blue Water Group or the Sierra Club fiting this one. They just hate boats on the lakes but poop is ok?
I guess they just don't like boats in the sewer ponds! :crossx:

[2Driver]

B30.........Hate to tell you but ALL wastewater treatment plants have issues from time to time and it is RAW sewage that is discharged. I've had responsibility to operate two private plants (for companies I've worked for) and worked very closely with the cities plants.....It's not a matter of "if it happens" as much as when it happens.....
Raw sewage will end up in Mead at some point.....
That is exactly what I was going to say. You can bet it would have broken as they all do and wham it's the TJ river II.
I have been boating on the river between Parker and the Gorge since 1985 and I see a big difference in the quality. I never remember the black ooze under lament in the gorge or up above I-40 on the beaches. Kick it up and it smells like poop. Ever visit the beach at Harrah’s in Laughlin? It smells like an airport restroom at 8AM. I would love to see a dredging project 300 yards down river of the sandbar :idea: and the channel being monitored for e-coli?
People see the clear river and the moving current and tend to think it is pure melted mountain snow and if they dump in it it will just wash away and the river can take it. That mentality is how so many waterways grew into such problems. I grew up on the banks of the Chesapeake Bay when it was nearly as clear as the river and look at the history of that body of water. It is good to see this was turned down. If any city in the U.S. has the MEGA MONEY to do something cutting edge with water reclamation it should be those in Vegas.

[Beer-30]

Well, then, instead of bringing a bunch of problems to the plate, bring solutions. Other ideas?
My point is. We are all still gonna boat on the river and associated lakes. There's poop, pee, vomit, chromium, blood, body parts, fish poop/pee, cow poop/pee,,,,,in there already. The list goes on and on, not to even start mentioning the bacterias and fungus. It's been there, it's gonna be there. More / less doesn't really matter. It hasn't hurt me yet, and I am not about to let it stop me from doing what I like to do. Life can be over at any second, and I am not going to cut out any fun just because water is a little dirtier than it was before.
I know I can't change it. And, I don't have any better solutions.
That's my angle on it.

[2Driver]

There's poop, pee, vomit, chromium, blood, body parts, fish poop/pee, cow poop/pee,,,,,in there already. The list goes on and on, not to even start mentioning the bacterias and fungus.
I know I've been through Bakersfield. :D :D :D

[Beer-30]

I know I've been through Bakersfield. :D :D :D
Funny you should say that. My friends and I refer to our local lake, which is 10 feet at the deepest point, Lake Feces. The water is brown, yucky crop run-off. At a 1/2 mile wide by a mile long, it is a glorified ski-lake. Just a big oval with islands in the middle. It's pretty nasty, but like the pic I posted of Elsinore - not that bad.

[Sleek-Jet]

I guess everyone missed the point that this proposal was not to increase the effluent releases in the lake... it was to move the point of discharge to the Boulder Islands area from the Las Vegas Wash. The CWC already discharges 150 mgd of effluent into the wash... they will now continue to do so, as they have for 40 years.
There are already reuse plans in place, as well as more being implemented. A large portion of effluent is re-charged into the aquifer as well (something on the order of 200,000 acre feet per year)
All of the Las Vegas valley drains into the Las Vegas wash.
Go read the EIS, it's all in there.

[riverroyal]

Good question.
Anyway, the water CAN'T be nearly as bad as this stuff: (Elsinore)
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2433water.JPG
one million gallons,or close to that,Of treated sewage is pumped into elsinore.It started about 3 years ago.Its a cleaner than what was in the lake!It is helping the water,believe it or not.My dad was the boss at the elsinore sewage plant expanision before he retired,the amount of sewage pumped in is stagering,although it treated,its actually pretty clean

[Seadog]

97% of all water in the world is in the oceans. 2% is frozen in the icecaps. That leaves 1% to sustain our world. We are constantly recycling this water. Most river systems will take water out upstream of where they dump their effluent. This is would work except the the fact that downstream of one town is upstream for another town. In the 1800s, this was the source of the spread of many diseases until they started regulating the dumping of wastewater and started chlorinating the drinking water.
Today, most of the waste water is treated to a higher quality than the water we take out of the lakes and rivers. It is also extensively tested for contaminants. Many communities have gone to using wastewater effluent to use for various things like water parks and golf courses, fire protection and other uses that do not require the same degree of quality as drinking water. This is done for several reasons, but primarily that it is cheaper to use this water than to pipe it away and then retreat it for drinking. It also contains more plant nutrients and lacks the chlorine needed for drinking water.
It sounds like they need drinking water more than they need irrigation. There is getting to be more and more use of waste water directly to drinking water. It is not any different than the existing process, just a few feel good steps left out. We have this notion of nature good, man made bad. However, in real life, the waters that nature provide, is more dangerous than people think. You cannot get high enough into the mountains than some goat or critter has not pooped into the stream.

[cc322]

one million gallons,or close to that,Of treated sewage is pumped into elsinore.It started about 3 years ago.Its a cleaner than what was in the lake!It is helping the water,believe it or not.My dad was the boss at the elsinore sewage plant expanision before he retired,the amount of sewage pumped in is stagering,although it treated,its actually pretty clean
Alot cleaner then straight urban runoff

[Dusty Times]

I would still prefer the run off from the rocky mountains than a Vegas shitter no matter how many times it is purified.
All of Las Vegas storm drains (washed down fertilizers and what ever may be on the streets and curbs) also flows down Vegas Wash into Lake Mead. The clarity in Lake Mead has dropped drasticly in the last ten years. Wonder why?