Looking for information for 572" twin turbo build

[Hipshot]

Hello everyone, I am knew to the ***boat boards but not new to boating. I am currently trying to find on of the 21ft aluminum tunnel hull jets to build a hotrod/family boat out of that I am wanting to build a twin turbo motor for. This will be my first twin turbo deal but I have run blowers for years. I am wanting to go against the grain and do this thing with some type of EFI injection setup even though all the car guys are saying it won't work. Do any of you have experience with this type set up in a boat running sensors? If so would you care to share your thoughts.
Here is a small parts list of what my base build will be:
1. Donovan Marine anodized aluminum block 4.625" bore
2. Sonny Bryant crank 4.25" stroke
3. Steve Schmidt Pro-Filer 12 degree heads w/ 2.400int 1.880ext
These are the parts I have to start with. I am also thinking about running GRP aluminum rods but I am not sure about longevity in a recreational boat.

[Taylorman]

Talk to Unchained and read here
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97231

[Infomaniac]

Where in OK are you?
I can help.

[Hipshot]

I live in Temple. About 30 miles south of Lawton. Thanks for the offer to help. How is it that you can help? Do you have experience with these turbo deals and EFI in a boat. I talked to the guys at OutlawEagle boats today and I am waiting for a quote on a new aluminum 21ft tunnel. I am seriously thinking about buying an aluminum tunnel to put this deal in.

[Hipshot]

Okay okay, I am a newbie so I guess I have to take a certain amount of abuse huh?

[Unchained]

Hello everyone, I am knew to the ***boat boards but not new to boating. I am currently trying to find on of the 21ft aluminum tunnel hull jets to build a hotrod/family boat out of that I am wanting to build a twin turbo motor for. This will be my first twin turbo deal but I have run blowers for years. I am wanting to go against the grain and do this thing with some type of EFI injection setup even though all the car guys are saying it won't work. Do any of you have experience with this type set up in a boat running sensors? If so would you care to share your thoughts.
These are the parts I have to start with. I am also thinking about running GRP aluminum rods but I am not sure about longevity in a recreational boat.
With Twin turbo and EFI you'll be going with the best and most efficient setup available. With the right turbo's you'll be able to get 1100 hp on pump gas with 12# boost. I run 19# boost and am around 1400hp with 110 octane.
Car guys that say EFI won't work in a boat are not informed and must not know the system.
The 21' Eagle aluminum hull would be a great choice too. I'd have one but I'm stuck on pickleforks and no one makes them in aluminum. The Aluminum hull will usually weigh less than a fiberglass hull and be more durable. Paint jobs are pricey though. The hull with the paint job will cost you considerably more than a glass boat with 4 or 5 colors in the gel.
Another choice would be a new 19' Stealth Kevlar hull. Their 420#. I saw one last saturday in Phoenix and it was a beauty.
Hi-Tech Performance is a dealer for them.
I've run my TT / EFI setup for a few years and I'm real happy with it. I used roots blowers before too but never again.
I've also run Bill Miller aluminum rods for several years.
The first set I ran 4 seasons and removed them and sent them back to Miller for inspection and they told me that they were still at original length and could still be used. I elected to get a new set anyways. I've run the current set for three seasons. I put over 40 hrs per year on this boat.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220Turboengine05.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220Polishedsplashguardls.jpg
I fabricate stainless dry turbo headers and intercooler boxes if you need them.
Good Luck with your project.
Mark
616 813 7237

[Hipshot]

Thanks unchained. I have my eye on a pair of Turbonetics Super T series turbos that only have about 10 passes on them that I am trying to buy. I still have a lot of learning to do on this stuff. As far as 19ft tunnels go they won't cut it for what I need, they are just too small. If I were going with a glass boat I would buy a 21ft Daytona. I just want something different. My family owns five paint and body shops so the paint job isn't a big deal, I can get as crazy as I want and it will only cost time not money. You're set up looks awesome, nice fabricating!

[Badburn]

Hey unchained, Do you know of anyone who makes warercooled turbo stuff that would be suitable for an enclosed engine compartment.??? I'm thinking about turning my blower motor project into a turbo motor project :idea:

[MKEELINE]

BadBurn,
Talk to obnoxious001, Barry, here on the boards. I believe he has a complete Gentry system for sale.

[Unchained]

Hey unchained, Do you know of anyone who makes warercooled turbo stuff that would be suitable for an enclosed engine compartment.??? I'm thinking about turning my blower motor project into a turbo motor project :idea:
Superdave adapted a set of CMI stainless water jacketed headers to a turbo flange and that looked like a good way to go. Maybe he could post some pictures of it.
I just had a couple 1/2" stainless turbo flanges lasered out at "Stainless Works" in Ohio and they are real nice. $ 62.50 each
They had flanges for T4's in stock but I had to send them a layout of the flanges I needed for these big Garrett Turbo's I use.
I really enjoyed the Video of your street car.
Thanks for putting that up.

[ttmott]

Hipshot
The Turbonetics Super-T series would be good for all out competition but, depending on the A/R of the turbines I doubt they would be good at all for anything else assuming you are going a duel setup on a 572. Make sure you check the trim; if the A/R is greater than .81 you may want to reconsider. Also for low gas flow rates on the compressor side (modest boating around) you would probably be really close to the stall area of the compressor (very bad). I have a pair of turbonnetics 62-1's (quite a bit smaller than the Super-T's) with a .81 A/R (P/N 10996) on a 472 Hemi and they stay spooled nicely right off idle. Also, the wastegates start stepping in at 4800 RPM at WOT when set for 18 PSIG so there is plenty of room on top should I decide to go there. The Super-T's have a big compressor so it takes a lot to get it turning.
Again, it's all what you are building the engine for. I recomend you visit the Turbonetics web site (Turbonetics (http://turboneticsinc.com)); they have all of their compressor maps, and a sizing sheet there. Lastly, call them - good knowledgeable people.

[ScapeGoat]

Correct me if I am wrong,
Waste gates go on the exhaust side
blow off valves go on the intake side
should I be using both for proper performance

[TJS]

unchained,
You saw this stealth at Phoenix. I was there Friday and was talking to Tom Papp about my buddies Cheyene. My buddy lives in Surprise. We took the Cheyene to Parker. I know there is more in this thing. Tom Papp is working on the ride plate and intake for it now. Here is a pic of the 420 lb stealth Gen III. That thing is sweet. I got back to CT. and it was 27 degrees and we had snow Thanksgiving eve.
http://www.tjsperformance.com/images/tpstealth.jpg
T.J.
www.tjsperformance.com

[ttmott]

I took another look at twin turbos on a 572 and came up with 56 lb/min a pressure ratio of 2.68 at 5500 RPM and 36 lb/min at a pressure ratio of 1.22 at 3000 RPM (reasonable extream pleasure boating factors inputted) and definately you are off the curve for the Super-T series and marginaly on the curve for the large T series Turbonetics turbos. A single Super-T would be great for weekend boating. See the below calc results then compare to the maps that Turbonetics post.
Secondly, at the upper RPM areas you will need 89 LB/HR injectors if using 8 which will probably result in idle pulse width problems and very rich idle issues. You will probably need to step up to a 12 or 16 injector setup with smaller flow rate injectors.
Engine Air Flow / Compressor Sizing Calculations at 5500
Air Properties
Molecular weight 29.00
Z 1.00
k-1/k 0.288
Engine Data
engine rpm 5500 revs/min
displacement 572.0 cu inch
volumetric efficiency 75%
number of turbos 2
compressor efficiency 65%
Ambient Conditions
local baro pressure 29.92 in Hg 14.70 psia
ambient temp 85 deg F
Conditions at Compressor Inlet
Vacuum drawn at inlet 2.0 in Hg
Inlet Pressure 13.71 psia
Inlet density 0.068 lb/ft3
Conditions at Compressor Outlet
outlet pres 22.0 psig
outlet temp 359.6 deg F
P2/P1 2.68
outlet density 0.121 lb/ft3
Conditions at Intercooler Outlet
manifold pres 19.0 psig
manifold temp 110.0 deg F
manifold density 0.160 lb/ft3
IC pressure drop 3.0 psi
Results, mass and volume flows
compressor air flow 72.8 lb/min, ideal
compressor air flow 54.6 lb/min, actual
compressor air flow 412.6 gm/sec, actual
total engine air flow 825.2 gm/sec, actual
compressor air flow 802.0 ACFM, actual inlet
compressor air flow 450.8 ACFM, actual outlet
Data for use with Turbonetics curves
pressure correction 0.983
temperature correction 1.000
corrected suction flow 55.5 lb/min
Pressure ratio 2.68
Fuel Injector Sizing Calculations
No. of injectors 8
Desired duty cycle 80%
A/F ratio 11.5 :1
fuel specific gravity 0.735
fuel required 9.49 lb/min
fuel required 92.9 gal/hr
Injector size req'd 89.0 lb/hr
engine hp potential 813.6 hp @ BSFC=0.7
engine hp potential 949.2 hp @ BSFC=0.6
engine hp potential 1139.0 hp @ BSFC=0.5
Turbine Performance / Exhaust Pressure Calculations
Compressor Head and Horsepower req'd
polytropic factor 0.4431 (n-1)/n
head req'd 35,799 ft
horsepower req'd 91.1 hp required to drive compressor
Exhaust Properties
EGT 1600 deg F
exhaust MW 28.36
(k-1)/k 0.222
Exhaust flow 59.32 lb/min
% bypassed to WG 30.0% of total to wastegate
Flow thru turbine 41.53 lb/min
Turbine Power Recovery
isentropic efficiency 80%
mechanical efficiency 99%
hp delivered 91.1 hp
Pres. ratio req'd 2.46 inlet/outlet pressure
post turbine EGT 1302 deg F
Exhaust Pressures
TOP 5.0 psig, turbine outlet pressure
TIP 33.7 psig, turbine inlet pressure / exhaust backpressur
TIP/boost 1.53
Pipe Velocity Calculations
Compressor Inlet Pipe 3.0 inch inside diameter
Inlet Pipe Velocity 272.3 ft/sec
Compressor Outlet Pipe 3.0 inch inside diameter
Outlet Pipe Velocity 153.1 ft/sec
IC Outlet Pipe 2.5 inch inside diameter
Up Pipe Velocity 333.8 ft/sec
__________________________________________________ ____________
Engine Air Flow / Compressor Sizing Calculations 3000 RPM
Air Properties
Molecular weight 29.00
Z 1.00
k-1/k 0.288
Engine Data
engine rpm 3000 revs/min
displacement 572.0 cu inch
volumetric efficiency 90%
number of turbos 2
compressor efficiency 65%
Ambient Conditions
local baro pressure 29.92 in Hg 14.70 psia
ambient temp 85 deg F
Conditions at Compressor Inlet
Vacuum drawn at inlet 2.0 in Hg
Inlet Pressure 13.71 psia
Inlet density 0.068 lb/ft3
Conditions at Compressor Outlet
outlet pres 2.0 psig
outlet temp 133.9 deg F
P2/P1 1.22
outlet density 0.076 lb/ft3
Conditions at Intercooler Outlet
manifold pres 19.0 psig
manifold temp 110.0 deg F
manifold density 0.160 lb/ft3
IC pressure drop -17.0 psi
Results, mass and volume flow
compressor air flow 39.7 lb/min, ideal
compressor air flow 35.7 lb/min, actual
compressor air flow 270.1 gm/sec, actual
total engine air flow 540.1 gm/sec, actual
compressor air flow 524.9 ACFM, actual inlet
compressor air flow 469.8 ACFM, actual outlet
Data for use with Turbonetics curves
pressure correction 0.983
temperature correction 1.000
corrected suction flow 36.3 lb/min
Pressure ratio 1.22
Fuel Injector Sizing Calculations
Fuel Injectors
No. of injectors 8
Desired duty cycle 80%
A/F ratio 11.5 :1
fuel specific gravity 0.735
fuel required 6.21 lb/min
fuel required 60.8 gal/hr
Injector size req'd 58.2 lb/hr
engine hp potential 532.5 hp @ BSFC=0.7
engine hp potential 621.3 hp @ BSFC=0.6
engine hp potential 745.5 hp @ BSFC=0.5
Turbine Performance / Exhaust Pressure Calculations
Compressor Head and Horsepower req'd
polytropic factor 0.4431 (n-1)/n
head req'd 5,965 ft
horsepower req'd 9.9 hp required to drive compressor
Exhaust Properties
EGT 1600 deg F
exhaust MW 28.36
(k-1)/k 0.222
Exhaust flow 38.83 lb/min
% bypassed to WG 30.0% of total to wastegate
Flow thru turbine 27.18 lb/min
Turbine Power Recovery
isentropic efficiency 80%
mechanical efficiency 99%
hp delivered 9.9 hp
Pres. ratio req'd 1.15 inlet/outlet pressure
post turbine EGT 1550 deg F
Exhaust Pressures
TOP 5.0 psig, turbine outlet pressure
TIP 7.9 psig, turbine inlet pressure / exhaust backpressur
TIP/boost 3.96
Pipe Velocity Calculations
Compressor Inlet Pipe 3.0 inch inside diameter
Inlet Pipe Velocity 178.2 ft/sec
Compressor Outlet Pipe 3.0 inch inside diameter
Outlet Pipe Velocity 159.5 ft/sec
IC Outlet Pipe 2.5 inch inside diameter
Up Pipe Velocity 218.5 ft/sec

[green with envy]

I have a 572 efi twin turbo motor ready to go in a boat. I am thinking on selling it. Built by gt performance. Sitting in a crate at his shop. has not been run except on the dyno. pm if your interested.

[Hipshot]

Thank you ttmott. That is just the kind of information I am looking for.

[HeavyHitter]

Not sure why a 572 pushing 25 lbs of boost could only turn a pump to 5500 rpm? Seems like a poor use of that sized engine. Super-T on a 572 turning an AA impeller to 6000+ rpm at 25 psi, compressor wise would be fine. The issue is squeezing a 572 through Q trim turbines. Not the optimal combination for large engines although spool up would be fast. Probably need 4 waste gates to hold pressure. The right sized GT or older TV, TA series turbos can flow much higher exhaust volumes so the overall system efficiency is better. Look for compressors that can support 75+ lb/min at 2.0 pressure ratio. If you want to pull the big pressure numbers you'll have to make sure you o-ring the heads and receiver groove the block. Big bore short stroke would not be my first choice for configuration if you want to run reasonable fuel. The larger the bore the further the flame propegation requires higher octane demand at high effective compression ratios. I turned an AA impeller to 6400 rpm with a 514 running 12 psi. I know unchained turns higher with his 540. 95 lb/hr injectors work fine all the way down to small blocks. My little 528 idles at 800 rpm nicely. Unchained is running 160 lb/hr injectors and it idles fine for a jet boat. The only system I'd double up injectors on is a constant flow (mechanical injection). I've tired running big single set injectors and they're pretty much digital. Forget about trying to run part throttle. For the best results with mechanical injection run 2:1 unvented to vented.

[BUSBY]

I live in Temple. About 30 miles south of Lawton..
Damn ... sorry to hear that bro ... that's in the middle of nowhere ... I have family in Lawton, Duncan & Marlow ... and it's just a little too "dwon home" for me ... good thing your close to Wichita Falls ...

[BUSBY]

I live in Temple. About 30 miles south of Lawton.
Do they still have that drag strip out there?

[ttmott]

Heavyhitter
Didn't know he was turning a pump; even more of a reason to concentrate on bottom end power.
I used 5500 only to establish a scenario to compare to a compressor map. At 6500 (which is high for a rec. boat) and 25 psig boost each compressor should be flowing about 76 lb/min corrected (intercooler pressure loss not considered). 25 psig boost sets the pressure ratio to 2.89 (P1/P2); can't be 2.00. So if you look at the below map and if he is running two Super-T turbos he will be on the left of the surge line if at 25 psig and a more desired 5000 RPM, the turbos are a bit too big for a 572 not too small. Secondly, the Super-T series has a large AR's allowing more exhaust gas flow but spool up time on the turbine suffers greatly.
A far better situation is to establish a turbo such as a Turbonetics T-62 or Garrett GT 42 and set maximum boost (25 psig for argument) at just less than 5000 RPM and have the waste gates control from say 4000 rpm and up. This way the turbine will spool at lower engine RPM's making the engine far more responsive.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1030T76.gif
I made the mistake on an early project and bought large compressors hoping to grow the engine into the large turbos over time as the cash outlay for turbos is big. The whole combination suffered until way up into RPMville when the turbos started to spin and breathe. Never could make good bottom end and midrange power. Lessons learned and passed on.
Tom

[Hipshot]

Busby, I think there is a little 1/8 mile bracket track near Lawton that still holds events.
Thanks for the added turbo info guys. As far as my bore and stroke combo goes I am going to run what I have because it is very nice stuff and it just wouldn't make sense to sell it and start over for a lake boat. My Donovan block is 4.625" bore and my crank is a Bryant billet 4.25" stroke.

[HeavyHitter]

Tom, maybe my math is wrong but it's always worked right for me in estimating Hp and sizing turbos. Let's see 25 psi gauge +14.7 to make absolute = P2. P2 = 39.7, P1 = 14.7. Therefore P2/P1 = 2.7, not exactly the 2.68 you used in your estimate but pretty close. I don't consider 25 psi recreational since it will require race fuel and good tuning not to fry things. A cubic foot of air at standard conditions weighs 0.076 lbs. Take a 572 at 5000 rpm. 1 cubic inch is 0.000578 cubic feet so the displacement in cubic feet is 0.331. Multiply that by 5000 rpm then divide by 2 for a 4 stroke and you get 827 cfm at 100% VE and pressure ratio of 1. Multiply by 0.076 and you get 62.8 lb/min of air flow. Multiply by a pressure ratio of 2.7 and you get 169.7 lb/min of air flow. Unless you really plan on putting on small heads without much cam your VE will be mid to high 80's so lets just use 86% for giggles. 169.7 x .86 = 146 lb/min. Use 2 turbos and that works out to 72 lb/min at 2.7 pressure ratio. That puts you real close to the 85,000 rpm 70% compressor efficiency intersection. OK let's figure this for 16 psi which is all I would run with composite head gaskets. That's a pressure ratio of 2.09. Take the 62.8 and multiply by 2.09 and you get 131 lb/min. That works out to ~66lb/min per turbo. On the compressor map that looks like 76% compressor efficiency and 70,000 rpm. Still over the sweet spot so good torque will start right around 48 lb/min. Let's work backwards to see the rpm. (48 x 2) / (2.09 x .076) = 604 cfm. 604/(.86 x .331) = 2121 rpm. To support 5000 rpm air flow you'll need 146 x 60 (min/hr) /11.5 (A/F) = 761 lb/hr. Divide that by 8 injectors and you'll need 95 lb/hr minimum. I'd stick with the 95's and turn the fuel pressure up since your next option is 160 lb.hr injectors. A 572 is a large engine needing large turbos. The super T were really developed for small engines pulling high pressure ratios and rpm to make the big horsepower numbers. Heat due to high exhaust pressures was not a big concern. I'd go with some GT-42 but I know they are pricey. TV-7X series will work well and are available remanufactured to help with cost. Does this make any sense? Hipshot call Scott at Turbos Direct in Phoenix. He can help you with what's available.

[TurboNova]

Hipshot
The Turbonetics Super-T series would be good for all out competition but, depending on the A/R of the turbines I doubt they would be good at all for anything else assuming you are going a duel setup on a 572. Make sure you check the trim; if the A/R is greater than .81 you may want to reconsider. Also for low gas flow rates on the compressor side (modest boating around) you would probably be really close to the stall area of the compressor (very bad). I have a pair of turbonnetics 62-1's (quite a bit smaller than the Super-T's) with a .81 A/R (P/N 10996) on a 472 Hemi and they stay spooled nicely right off idle. Also, the wastegates start stepping in at 4800 RPM at WOT when set for 18 PSIG so there is plenty of room on top should I decide to go there. The Super-T's have a big compressor so it takes a lot to get it turning.
Again, it's all what you are building the engine for. I recomend you visit the Turbonetics web site (Turbonetics (http://turboneticsinc.com)); they have all of their compressor maps, and a sizing sheet there. Lastly, call them - good knowledgeable people.
I am sorry and I don't want to rip on you or anything but a pair of 62-1's shouldn't be on anything bigger than a 350 small block and don't belong on any big block at all. I have been reading this forum lately and it seems like all the boat guys are stuck in the 70s with draw thru stuff and turbos that are too small. He is on the right track with the a larger turbos and if he is going EFI it has more to do with the EFI tune up than the actual A/R of the exhaust. I spool a 1.0 A/R with my small block with the right tune up and I am looking into changing the exhaust side to a 1.32 A/R. I personally wouldn't go any smaller than a .96 A/R on any big block and no less than a 74mm turbo. A couple of GT47s would work great on an engine like this depending on power band, heads ect..
I understand the reason for the water jacketed turbos and manifolds but you are actually hurting the performance of the turbo. The turbos spool with heat in the exhaust and the air flow coming into the exhaust side. If you water cool the housing you slow the air flow through the exhaust housing. I know this is a Coast Guard regulation but if you can stay away from it then do. The water cooled housings that I have seen are "on center" housings and are very old school. Very bad for flow and spool up. If you call a well known turbo supplier they will try to talk you out of running an on center housing because of the bad flow characteristics. The tanginal housings flow much better and look more like a snail shell. Even the GT42s you guys are talking about are too small for a big block of this size. I would first ask what kind of EFI are you looking at? Fast and Big Stuff 3 are a couple of the better ones out there for an affordable price. Then there is Motec, EFI Tech and Autronic. If you use a quality system then you should have hardly any spool up issues. Unlike a car, a boat has load and resistance in the water which will help spool up. Our 350 Chevy budget engine had a GT42 single turbo on it. I could spool it up at 2500 rpms with two carbs, if it was EFI then who knows. Exhaust housings are cheap and if spool up is an issue after the EFI is correctly tuned then change to a smaller A/R but don't put too smaller of an intake side on the engine.
I am a dealer for Precision Turbo and Engine, I sell Garrett turbos, intercoolers, EFI systems, piping, custom headers, all the stuff you would need to turbo anything. I do this for a living. You can make stupid power with the right turbo, EFI and a big block.

[TurboNova]

Divide that by 8 injectors and you'll need 95 lb/hr minimum. I'd stick with the 95's and turn the fuel pressure up since your next option is 160 lb.hr injectors. A 572 is a large engine needing large turbos. The super T were really developed for small engines pulling high pressure ratios and rpm to make the big horsepower numbers. Heat due to high exhaust pressures was not a big concern. I'd go with some GT-42 but I know they are pricey. TV-7X series will work well and are available remanufactured to help with cost. Does this make any sense? Hipshot call Scott at Turbos Direct in Phoenix. He can help you with what's available.
Don't turn the fuel pressure up to band aid for too small of an injector. I have put 160's in 302 small block fords that idle well and street drive just fine. Again it is in the EFI tune. If you are making boost and say your base fuel pressure is 43 like it should be, then you crank the base pressure to 55 to fix the lack of injector at the high end then you would have something like 80psi @ 25 pounds of boost. Three things you are doing here, 1 is spraying more fuel at an idle by rasing the fuel pressure (maybe you can change that with injector opening time and maybe not) 2 increasing the amount of fuel available across the power band, 3 wearing out your injectors faster because of the extra pressure on them. You can actually run out of duty cycle doing this with too small an injector, the injector will actually hold completely open at max boost, it is also harder for the injector coil to accurately open and shut at extra pressures. Don't be afraid of 160s, people always say the idle quality is bad with 160s but that is only because they don't know how to tune.

[TurboNova]

A far better situation is to establish a turbo such as a Turbonetics T-62 or Garrett GT 42 and set maximum boost (25 psig for argument) at just less than 5000 RPM and have the waste gates control from say 4000 rpm and up. This way the turbine will spool at lower engine RPM's making the engine far more responsive.
The wastegates control boost as soon as the pressure comes to a point that they have to open to bleed off extra pressure to maintain the 25psi. They will not just control from 4000 and up. If the engine makes 25psi at 2000 rpms then the wastegates will open and control boost from then on. There are other ways to spool a larger A/R housing, I bet you guys haven't heard about putting another waste gate on the intake side. How about opening the BOV for a set amount of time to help the turbos spool. There are alot of tuning tricks, spooling tricks that will help you make more power faster without going to a turbo that is too small and will only choke your engine at a higher RPM.

[TurboNova]

Correct me if I am wrong,
Waste gates go on the exhaust side
blow off valves go on the intake side
should I be using both for proper performance
Yes and yes. You should be using both wastes for control and blow off or sometimes called surge valve for relieving pressure from the intake tract when you lift on the throttle. This is alot easier on the turbos and you will not try to spin the turbo backwards when you lift on the throttle.

[TurboNova]

Probably need 4 waste gates to hold pressure. The right sized GT or older TV, TA series turbos can flow much higher exhaust volumes so the overall system efficiency is better. If you want to pull the big pressure numbers you'll have to make sure you o-ring the heads and receiver groove the block.
Two HKS GT or GT2 wastegates would work just fine. I agree I would O-ring and reciever groove the heads anyway.

[Unchained]

Turbo Nova,
Thanks for all that tech info.
I've spoke to Heavy Hitter several times and he has really helped me figure out the specifics on turbos and EFI systems too.
I can't complain about the drivability with the 160# injectors.
I'd use that size again in a second.
I did drop the fuel pressure down to 36# and that lets me run 1.7 ms injector timing at idle and I'm at 6.5 ms at WOT / 19# boost.
Maybe people who didn't have good luck with the big injectors didn't have a good strong trigger signal. I wasted a lot of time trying to use the signal from the MSD distributor before I went with a crank trigger Hall effect signal setup.
From my experience that is the only way to go.
There is a lot of interest in Turbo / EFI here on this site judging from the PM's I've got about it and help from the pros is invaluable.
I've got many mixed opinions about me mounting the wastegates right on the turbine housing. I've seen it pictured in the Maximum Boost book as being an optimum place to mount them. I might not want to do it with some expensive turbo's but I don't mind machining on the turbine housing of these Diesel turbos. It has worked out real good for me.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220wastegatemount2.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220wastegatemount.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220wastegaterightside.jpg

[TurboNova]

Turbo Nova,
Thanks for all that tech info.
I've spoke to Heavy Hitter several times and he has really helped me figure out the specifics on turbos and EFI systems too.
I can't complain about the drivability with the 160# injectors.
I'd use that size again in a second.
I did drop the fuel pressure down to 36# and that lets me run 1.7 ms injector timing at idle and I'm at 6.5 ms at WOT / 19# boost.
Maybe people who didn't have good luck with the big injectors didn't have a good strong trigger signal. I wasted a lot of time trying to use the signal from the MSD distributor before I went with a crank trigger Hall effect signal setup.
From my experience that is the only way to go.
There is a lot of interest in Turbo / EFI here on this site judging from the PM's I've got about it and help from the pros is invaluable.
I've got many mixed opinions about me mounting the wastegates right on the turbine housing. I've seen it pictured in the Maximum Boost book as being an optimum place to mount them. I might not want to do it with some expensive turbo's but I don't mind machining on the turbine housing of these Diesel turbos. It has worked out real good for me.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220wastegatemount2.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/220wastegatemount.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220wastegaterightside.jpg
If you had something other than Halltech then you could tune the injector instead of messing around with the fuel pressure. I run all my stuff at the rate the injector is flowed at which in most cases is 43psi. Then we tune the EFI system from there. One of the best systems for leaning out idle is the Big Stuff 3 EFI system. There is a table for injector opening time vs voltage that we use for idle injector opening and ramp the injector up as the alternator starts working. We have made small cubic engines idle very well with large injectors.
As for the wastegate you could mount them just below where the turbo housing flange is and accomplish the same thing without going through all that trouble. Most people mount the wastegate coming off of the collector or build a box that bolt between the turbo housing and the header collector I have not seen any other person other than you who mounted their wastegate there. I am not saying that it is a bad thing but I would think that it might hurt some of the flow going into the housing. Hey some of the guys we race with will spend tons of money for every last Hp and if the wastegate on the housing was the way then everyone would be doing that by now. Garrett would be building them that way.
Remember that the Maximum boost book is old technology, some of the same stuff applies but turbos have changed alot in the last 5 years as well as wastegates ect...
Our boat will be in the new update of the book "Turbochargers" coming out sometime in Jan. from what I am told by the author.

[Hipshot]

As unchained mentioned thanks for the information. I really have to get to work on this deal a little harder I just need to make some phone calls I guess. I really need to learn to read the turbo maps better. My only hold right now is deciding what turbos to go with. I almost bought the SuperT's but didn't after being told they weren't optimal. I have been told by a few folks supposedly in the know to look at the Garrett GT-42s so I have been looking around for deals. I just don't want to plop down $1800-$2500 on turbos without getting the right ones. Any more input on my combo would be super!

[TurboNova]

As unchained mentioned thanks for the information. I really have to get to work on this deal a little harder I just need to make some phone calls I guess. I really need to learn to read the turbo maps better. My only hold right now is deciding what turbos to go with. I almost bought the SuperT's but didn't after being told they weren't optimal. I have been told by a few folks supposedly in the know to look at the Garrett GT-42s so I have been looking around for deals. I just don't want to plop down $1800-$2500 on turbos without getting the right ones. Any more input on my combo would be super!
What is your combo? I know a 572ci chevy but what RPM range, heads, compression. Details please.

[HeavyHitter]

Two HKS GT or GT2 wastegates would work just fine. I agree I would O-ring and reciever groove the heads anyway.
TurboNova sorta took that wastegate quote out of context. I was refering to the small T-4 turbine section on the super-T turbos needing to dump a bunch of gas overboard. Anyway good luck Hipshot you've got some decisions to make on rpm, boost, fuel requirement and ultimate hp you want to make.

[Hipshot]

Hi TurboNova, the only parts of the combo I have right now are a new Donovan aluminum "marine anodized" block with 4.625" bore, Sonny Bryant billet 4.25" crank and Steve Schmidt Pro-Filer 12 degree spread port heads with 2.400"int. 1.880"ext. valves. That is all I have to build around right now. I am trying to figure the best combonation as far as pistons/comp ratio, rods and rod length. I have a set of brand new gold coated CP pistons but they are too high compression for this deal as I want it to be a pump gas friendly motor because it will mostly be run on 91-93 octane fuel. I will run Oliver billet rods but I don't know for sure what length yet. Also am planning a solid roller valve train with Jesel shaft rockers and belt drive. I haven't bought anymore parts yet because I am trying to research this turbo stuff and see if it's requirements are different than any other forced induction motor. My gut tells me it shouldn't be different but I have been wrong before.I would like to see the motor do it's thing by 6300-6600rpm, and I don't have any magical horsepower number in mind. I just want to make as much power as I can and it be somewhat liveable and reliable. As stated above, it will be run on pump gas. I would like the ability to crank up the boost, put race gas in it and wring it's neck occaisionally though. Any and all help is welcomed.

[steelcomp]

Rick Head at Innovative Turbo is another good source. He was the performance brainchild at Turbonetics, then opened his own business.
Sharp guy, and good friend.
805-526-5400

[steelcomp]

Hi TurboNova, the only parts of the combo I have right now are a new Donovan aluminum "marine anodized" block with 4.625" bore, Sonny Bryant billet 4.25" crank and Steve Schmidt Pro-Filer 12 degree spread port heads with 2.400"int. 1.880"ext. valves. That is all I have to build around right now. I am trying to figure the best combonation as far as pistons/comp ratio, rods and rod length. I have a set of brand new gold coated CP pistons but they are too high compression for this deal as I want it to be a pump gas friendly motor because it will mostly be run on 91-93 octane fuel. I will run Oliver billet rods but I don't know for sure what length yet. Also am planning a solid roller valve train with Jesel shaft rockers and belt drive. I haven't bought anymore parts yet because I am trying to research this turbo stuff and see if it's requirements are different than any other forced induction motor. My gut tells me it shouldn't be different but I have been wrong before.I would like to see the motor do it's thing by 6300-6600rpm, and I don't have any magical horsepower number in mind. I just want to make as much power as I can and it be somewhat liveable and reliable. As stated above, it will be run on pump gas. I would like the ability to crank up the boost, put race gas in it and wring it's neck occaisionally though. Any and all help is welcomed.
Hipshot...weren't you talking to Garry Snow about a Stealth or Cheyenne or somehting? I thought you were from Texas. :idea:

[Hipshot]

Nope, not I steelcomp. I am looking for a 21' Daytona or 21' Phantom. I live in Temple, Oklahoma. I used to live in South Padre for a while though.

[badbug]

I have an almost identical need for the same info you a looking for. I to have a brand new keith black olds aluminum block, and new callies 4.25 magnum blower crank. I do want to run the oliver rods and as you, are not sure on compression or rod length yet. Please hurry up and get it figured out. I talked to TURBO NOVA about setup and he seems to think i can get away with the cast iron turbo housings, but i'm not quite sure about that under the hatch. I have run the gentry water jacketed housings before and i agree that taking away heat can reduce power output, but carson says he gets 1670 hp on 110 octane on a 557 bbc with gentry water esxhausts and water turbo housings. That should be enough shouldnt it. I dont need any more than 1500 hp anyway and would rather keep it cool under hatch. They are very expensive though. I will probably buy the efi and other stuff from TURBO NOVA when i get the total price on what the water jacketed stuff will costs exactly. I need to make power up to 72-7500 before it lays down too bad. Hope turbo nova can help me get the thing to launch from idle with the larger turbos carson uses with his turbo housings.

[TurboNova]

Hi TurboNova, the only parts of the combo I have right now are a new Donovan aluminum "marine anodized" block with 4.625" bore, Sonny Bryant billet 4.25" crank and Steve Schmidt Pro-Filer 12 degree spread port heads with 2.400"int. 1.880"ext. valves. That is all I have to build around right now. I am trying to figure the best combonation as far as pistons/comp ratio, rods and rod length. I have a set of brand new gold coated CP pistons but they are too high compression for this deal as I want it to be a pump gas friendly motor because it will mostly be run on 91-93 octane fuel. I will run Oliver billet rods but I don't know for sure what length yet. Also am planning a solid roller valve train with Jesel shaft rockers and belt drive. I haven't bought anymore parts yet because I am trying to research this turbo stuff and see if it's requirements are different than any other forced induction motor. My gut tells me it shouldn't be different but I have been wrong before.I would like to see the motor do it's thing by 6300-6600rpm, and I don't have any magical horsepower number in mind. I just want to make as much power as I can and it be somewhat liveable and reliable. As stated above, it will be run on pump gas. I would like the ability to crank up the boost, put race gas in it and wring it's neck occaisionally though. Any and all help is welcomed.
This stuff all sounds familiar, did I already talk to you on the phone?
The best combo is a big bore short stroke. When I was building my 406 I had a tall deck, long rod engine. Harry the owner or Precision Turbo and Engine said it really didn't matter. I was looking into a 383,377,406 or 434 and we decided the 406 would be best because of not having to use custom pistons ect. With the turbo that I put on my 406 (101mm) I would have just ended up spining the rpms more with the smaller cubic inch combos.
Bottom line is use what you got, a longer rod would be nice but not at the sacrifice of pushing the piston pin too far up on the piston. A good ring pack is very important and what you will get from a better rod ratio isn't worth it. A shorter stroke might be better but you already have a crank. Don't go over 9.5:1 compression, building a turbo engine is very similar to a blower engine execpt the cam. I would either O-ring the block and head use copper SCE gaskets or use Cometic gaskets without an O-ring depending on how much boost you are going to run. Use hellfire rings, I have been using JE pistons but there are other choices out there. An aluminum rod is a good choice. Belt drive and Jessel is the way to go. For cams we have been using Cam Motion or Comp and have been very happy with both. How about an intake manifold? A single 105mm throttle body will work just fine. If I haven't already talked to you I can send you a parts list of proven parts that work.

[TurboNova]

I have an almost identical need for the same info you a looking for. I to have a brand new keith black olds aluminum block, and new callies 4.25 magnum blower crank. I do want to run the oliver rods and as you, are not sure on compression or rod length yet. Please hurry up and get it figured out. I talked to TURBO NOVA about setup and he seems to think i can get away with the cast iron turbo housings, but i'm not quite sure about that under the hatch. I have run the gentry water jacketed housings before and i agree that taking away heat can reduce power output, but carson says he gets 1670 hp on 110 octane on a 557 bbc with gentry water esxhausts and water turbo housings. That should be enough shouldnt it. I dont need any more than 1500 hp anyway and would rather keep it cool under hatch. They are very expensive though. I will probably buy the efi and other stuff from TURBO NOVA when i get the total price on what the water jacketed stuff will costs exactly. I need to make power up to 72-7500 before it lays down too bad. Hope turbo nova can help me get the thing to launch from idle with the larger turbos carson uses with his turbo housings.
Carson uses on center housings which aren't very good exhaust housings but I don't doubt that he makes that kind of power with a 557. I agree it might be a problem in a closed cover compartment, I still think we could shield the exhaust housings and wrap the exhaust. Most drag cars have their exhaust housings within a couple of inches of the fiberglass hoods and have no problems. Carson's bigger turbos are GT42 with his water jacket housings which I still think is too small for that size of engine, close but not enough. The other choice he had was two 60-1s but they are way too small for a big block of that size. We can make that thing launch there are a number of ways. With a GT42 and the traditional housing that it comes with, it would be no problem. With the water cooled on center housing it might take some work.

[Hipshot]

I have not talked to you on the phone yet, but I will be dialing you up in about 30 minutes on my lunch hour.

[ScapeGoat]

I have a 468 banks twin turbo with a single carb.
makes around 12 psi boost.
previous owner locked out the blow out valve on the intake side. he said it will blow fuel. what can I do to correct this.
also would like to set up a waste gate on the exhaust side between the turbo and manifold, need to find someone to fab the plate adapter when time comes.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/506/2846591047593828375_boat6-med_1_.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2846P1060006.JPG

[Hipshot]

Nice meeting and talking to you on the phone Brian(TurboNova). I look forward to working with you in the future on some of this stuff.

[badbug]

Carson uses on center housings which aren't very good exhaust housings but I don't doubt that he makes that kind of power with a 557. I agree it might be a problem in a closed cover compartment, I still think we could shield the exhaust housings and wrap the exhaust. Most drag cars have their exhaust housings within a couple of inches of the fiberglass hoods and have no problems. Carson's bigger turbos are GT42 with his water jacket housings which I still think is too small for that size of engine, close but not enough. The other choice he had was two 60-1s but they are way too small for a big block of that size. We can make that thing launch there are a number of ways. With a GT42 and the traditional housing that it comes with, it would be no problem. With the water cooled on center housing it might take some work.
Why cant you use garret gt47-88 or similar turbos and use them with the large gentry water turbo housings? KEEP IN MIND THAT ON A CAR SITUATION THAT THE WHOLE BOTTOM OF ENGINE COMPARTMENT IS OPEN TO AIR CIRCULATION. ON ONE OF MY BOATS IT IS TOTALLY ENCLOSED. nO AIRE TO ESCAPE ANYWHERE.

[TurboNova]

Why cant you use garret gt47-88 or similar turbos and use them with the large gentry water turbo housings? KEEP IN MIND THAT ON A CAR SITUATION THAT THE WHOLE BOTTOM OF ENGINE COMPARTMENT IS OPEN TO AIR CIRCULATION. ON ONE OF MY BOATS IT IS TOTALLY ENCLOSED. nO AIRE TO ESCAPE ANYWHERE.
You could but it would depend on if his housings would work with the exhaust wheel of the GT47-88 if they do then it would be a bolt on deal for the water cooled housings. When I talked to Carson he said that they used 60-1's (bad) or for bigger turbos he used the GT 42s. It also sounded like this was mostly salt water stuff from the rest of our conversation. His housings also used a pretty expensive internal wastegate, the size was good but the price was not.

[TurboNova]

Nice meeting and talking to you on the phone Brian(TurboNova). I look forward to working with you in the future on some of this stuff.
Thanks.

[TurboNova]

I have a 468 banks twin turbo with a single carb.
makes around 12 psi boost.
previous owner locked out the blow out valve on the intake side. he said it will blow fuel. what can I do to correct this.
also would like to set up a waste gate on the exhaust side between the turbo and manifold, need to find someone to fab the plate adapter when time comes.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/506/2846591047593828375_boat6-med_1_.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2846P1060006.JPG
With a draw thru a blow off valve isn't as important, it is easier on the turbo but isn't a problem for the carb. You will get some fuel out of the blow off because there is still fuel running through the turbo when you lift the throttle. Try not to instantly lift on the throttle then you will not have problems with the turbo. You can build a simple box between the turbo and the manifold that you can run a small piece of tubing into an external wastegate. It would have two four bolt turbo flanges. I believe you can buy these from Turbonetics

[steelcomp]

Here's a little info on rod length, since I saw that it was asked about. This is just "rule of thumb" mind you, but there are certain benefits from a shorter rod/stroke ratio (between 1.4-1.7:1) when talking about a supercharged deal. The biggest thing is that becausae of the increase in piston speed, the chamber volume increases more rapidly ATDC (on the power stroke), lowering combustion pressure, which delays the point of maximum cylinder pressure thereby taking the most advantage of the supercharger boost. (This goes for Nitrous, as well). Most BB Chev's are in the 1.5-1.6 range, and it's difficult to get any kind of a BBC stroker motor into the 1.6-1.7 range. This is one of the reasons why BB Chevs respond so well to supercharging. Short rod ratios also have certain advantages in NA app., but that's a different thread.
Short deck, short rod, big bore. I would think he 571, with it's 4.625 bore and 4.25 stroke, could be run in a short deck with a 6.385 rod and build excellent blown power. You also have the advantages of shorter pushrods, which helps with valve train stability. The engine is also simply smaller and lighter, if weight and/or space is a consideration.
This is a great thread. Turbo Nova, sounds like you know your turbo game. Good to have you here. Welcome :D

[ttmott]

I am sorry and I don't want to rip on you or anything but a pair of 62-1's shouldn't be on anything bigger than a 350 small block and don't belong on any big block at all. I have been reading this forum lately and it seems like all the boat guys are stuck in the 70s with draw thru stuff and turbos that are too small. He is on the right track with the a larger turbos and if he is going EFI it has more to do with the EFI tune up than the actual A/R of the exhaust. I spool a 1.0 A/R with my small block with the right tune up and I am looking into changing the exhaust side to a 1.32 A/R. I personally wouldn't go any smaller than a .96 A/R on any big block and no less than a 74mm turbo. A couple of GT47s would work great on an engine like this depending on power band, heads ect..
I understand the reason for the water jacketed turbos and manifolds but you are actually hurting the performance of the turbo. The turbos spool with heat in the exhaust and the air flow coming into the exhaust side. If you water cool the housing you slow the air flow through the exhaust housing. I know this is a Coast Guard regulation but if you can stay away from it then do. The water cooled housings that I have seen are "on center" housings and are very old school. Very bad for flow and spool up. If you call a well known turbo supplier they will try to talk you out of running an on center housing because of the bad flow characteristics. The tanginal housings flow much better and look more like a snail shell. Even the GT42s you guys are talking about are too small for a big block of this size. I would first ask what kind of EFI are you looking at? Fast and Big Stuff 3 are a couple of the better ones out there for an affordable price. Then there is Motec, EFI Tech and Autronic. If you use a quality system then you should have hardly any spool up issues. Unlike a car, a boat has load and resistance in the water which will help spool up. Our 350 Chevy budget engine had a GT42 single turbo on it. I could spool it up at 2500 rpms with two carbs, if it was EFI then who knows. Exhaust housings are cheap and if spool up is an issue after the EFI is correctly tuned then change to a smaller A/R but don't put too smaller of an intake side on the engine.
I am a dealer for Precision Turbo and Engine, I sell Garrett turbos, intercoolers, EFI systems, piping, custom headers, all the stuff you would need to turbo anything. I do this for a living. You can make stupid power with the right turbo, EFI and a big block.
Don't worry about a rip or two - I don't agree at all with regards to the 62-1 being too small; I have them with an AR of 0.81 on a 472 Hemi in a street car and they spool at low RPM as expected and can provide up to 2.7 bar at 4500 and up. I do have both Waste gates and BOV's and they are all integrated into an Electromotive engine management system. Remember this is a street car and not something on the drag strip that is staged at high RPM.
Here is my math on sizing turbos for a 572 (the same method I use for all my turbo projects except for my draw thru BBC Jet Boat). Note that in this case at 5500 RPM the data point is to the left of the surge line. Secondly, if you should plot points at each RPM (which is really mass air flow) it ends up being virtually a straight line somewhat parallel to the surge line on the map. Typically, at some point as the plot (air flow) increases the mass flow will cross the surge line. In the case of this map my numbers show all points on the left of the surge line.
Engine parameters:
Displacement (EDIS) = 572 in3
Engine revolutions per Minute (ERPM) = 5000
Engine volumetric efficiency (VE) = 80%
Quantity of turbochargers (QT) = 2
Turbocharger compressor efficiency (EC) = 75%
Vacuum draw at compressor inlet (PVAC) = 2 in Hg
Turbocharger compressor outlet pressure (POC) = 22 PSIG
Engine manifold pressure (including intercooler losses) (PMAN) = 20 PSIG
Gas temperature at engine manifold (includes intercooler cooling) (TMAN) = 110 Deg F
Environmental parameters:
Ambient temperature (TAMB) = 80 Deg F
Local barometric pressure (PAMB) = 29.92 in Hg (14.7PSIA)
Molecular weight of air = 29.00
Solution definitions:
PIC = Gas pressure at inlet of compressor PSIA
DIC = Gas density at inlet of compressor Lb/Ft3
PRC = Turbocharger inlet to outlet pressure ration (P1/P2)
TOC = Gas temperature at outlet of compressor Deg F
DOC = Gas Density at outlet of compressor Lb/Ft3
DMAN = Gas density at engine manifold Lb/Ft3
PDROP = Pressure drop from turbocharger outlet to engine manifold (including intercooler) PSI
MAFCI = Compressor ideal air flow Lb/Min
MAFCA = Compressor actual air flow (based upon compressor efficiency) Lb/Min
1. Calculate inlet pressure conditions at the turbocharger compressor:
PIC = (PAMB-PVAC)*14.7/29.921
PIC =13.7 PSIA
2. Calculate inlet density conditions at the turbocharger compressor:
DIC = PIC*29.00/10.73* (459.6+ TAMB)
DIC =0.069 Lb/Ft3
3. Calculate turbocharger pressure ratio (P1/P2)
PRC = (POC+14.7)/ PIC
PRC =2.68
4. Calculate gas temperature at turbocharger compressor outlet:
TOC = (TAMB+459.6)*PRC^0.288-1)/ (EC+TAMB)
TOC = 315.8 Deg F
5. Calculate gas density at turbocharger compressor outlet:
DOC = (POC+14.7) *29.00/10.73* (459.6+TOC)
DOC = 0.128 LB/Ft3
6. Calculate gas density at engine manifold:
DMAN = (PMAN+PAMB) *29.00/10.73* (459.6+TMAN)
DMAN = 0.160 Lb/Ft3
7. Calculate pressure drop from turbocharger outlet to manifold (including intercooler):
PDROP = POC-PMAN
PDROP =3 PSI
8. Calculate ideal turbocharger compressor air flow:
MAFCI = EDIS/2/1728*DMAN*ERPM/QT
MAFCI = 72.8 Lb/Min
9. Calculate actual turbocharger compressor air flow:
MAFCA=MAFCI*EC
MAFCA=58.2 Lb/Min
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1030T76.gif
Results are:
Each compressor needs to flow 58.2 Lb/Min at a pressure ratio of 2.68 at 75% efficiency.
Show me your numbers cuz I don't understand your rationale......
Tom

[Hipshot]

Hi steelcomp and thanks for the input. We have decided to run .250" long rod (6.385") as you mentioned. I still haven't decided for sure if I will run aluminum rods or steel rods though I am leaning towards billet steel right now for longevity. I have heard of people running aluminum rods for years in their pleasure boats without problems but I have no expreience with them in those type applications.

[TurboNova]

Tom, you can crunch all the numbers that you want but I know what works. Call Precision Turbo and Engine, ask for Patrick 219-996-7832. We talked a couple weeks ago at length about turbos for a 572 in a boat, I was thinking about the GT42s and he still said too small use the GT47. A 60-1 or 60-2 isn't even close to the right combo with the heads and engine they are talking about using. In fact a T4 flange will really choke off allot of air flow. Tell him you want some turbo recommendations on a 572 with twins and see what he says. Don't believe me go to the source. Most of the twin turbo drag cars running this year were using either PT 80mm or 88mm with .96 housings or the GT47-80 or 88. I just go with what works, I am after the big horsepower stuff.
I have had guys from Garrett call and ask me what actually works as opposed to what they have crunched out on paper. Personally I believe your turbos are too small. I would have gone with bigger turbos but that is me, if you are happy with them then great.
Look up a compressor map for a 101mm Garrett and tell me how it crunches out too big for a 406ci engine at 7500-8000 rpms. Then with a 1.32 A/R instead of a 1.0 A/R. That is where I am going.
"Gas temperature at engine manifold (includes intercooler cooling) (TMAN) = 110 Deg F."
Your number here should be lower, we get intake temps more like 60-80, and you should get at least just above lake water temp. If your not then you have the wrong intercooler. We dynoed a BMW tonight and had intake temps of 110 Deg F without any intercooler.
Engine RPM is more like 6500-7000 not 5000, 5000 rpms is for ski boats. If you build a big block of this caliber using Oliver rods ect... why would you only turn 5000 rpms, you could do that with a stock bottom end!
Your calcs also don't take into account the huge flowing heads that the Profiler heads are. Are you saying that a stock set of chevy heads or Profiler heads should use the same turbo just because it's a 572? All I am saying is that there is more to the combo than just crunching air flow across the compressor map. Everything you are crunching is theoretical air flow not actual air flow through the engine, most VE will be greater than 75% mine is more like 85%.

[ScapeGoat]

Turbonova, do you mean to fab like a sandwhich between the turbo and the exhaust manifold? I couldn't find anything on the web is there a parts # or section to look
which waste gate should I look at I believe I am around 550hp and don't want to turn more than 4500 to 5000 rpm
thanks

[Unchained]

Just for comparison I removed the compressor housing off the Garrett turbos I'm using to measure the compressor wheel.
It's 94 mm diameter. I wouldn't call a pair of these at all oversize for 540 ci.
I certainly wouldn't go with anything with a smaller compressor wheel than this.
I've got 1.15 turbine housings and .55 compressor housings.

[TurboNova]

Turbonova, do you mean to fab like a sandwhich between the turbo and the exhaust manifold? I couldn't find anything on the web is there a parts # or section to look
which waste gate should I look at I believe I am around 550hp and don't want to turn more than 4500 to 5000 rpm
thanks'
Here is a very rough drawing of a wastegate box. Maybe it's innovative turbo that has them. I usually build mine. it is very simple.
I would run two tial 44mm wastegates, having too big of a wastegate isn't bad it will just allow you to bleed enough pressure off to maintain really low boost pressures. They also have a 46mm gate available too.
http://www.brianmacy.com/untitled.jpg

[TurboNova]

Just for comparison I removed the compressor housing off the Garrett turbos I'm using to measure the compressor wheel.
It's 94 mm diameter. I wouldn't call a pair of these at all oversize for 540 ci.
I certainly wouldn't go with anything with a smaller compressor wheel than this.
I've got 1.15 turbine housings and .55 compressor housings.
Your turbos use a divided exhaust housing which also helps spool alot quicker, they are very similar in size to a GT42 which also has a divided exhaust housing.

[ScapeGoat]

thanks turbonova, thats what I was thinking of.

[TurboNova]

Just for comparison I removed the compressor housing off the Garrett turbos I'm using to measure the compressor wheel.
It's 94 mm diameter. I wouldn't call a pair of these at all oversize for 540 ci.
I certainly wouldn't go with anything with a smaller compressor wheel than this.
I've got 1.15 turbine housings and .55 compressor housings.
Is that at the top of the wheel or the bottom? If you look in the Garrett catalog they reference their size by the measurement at the bottom of the wheel and everyone else specs them out by using the top of the wheel measurement. Just remember this if you are comparing wheel sizes.

[turboboater]

I thought I'd post the dyno sheet from my twin turbo 572. I've run this combination in my 30' Checkmate since 2001. The exhaust housings are not water cooled but we did make a water cooled heat shield to protect the engine cover.
RPM......Boost...Torque....CT...HP.....EGT.....CHP ......CF.......BS
1500.......3..........620.....663...177....1050... .189....1.070---.54
1750.......5..........780.....835...260....1060... .278....1.070---.55
2000.......9..........810.....867...308....1130... .330....1.070---.58
2250......10.........825.....883....353....1340... .378....1.070---.58
2500......12.........850.....910....405....1340... .433....1.070---.59
2750......13.........880.....942....461....1350... .493....1.070---.59
3000......13.........960.....1027...548....1375... .587....1.070---.57
3500......16........1030....1102....686....1368... .734....1.070---.55
4000......20........1130....1209....861....1390... .921....1.070---.57
4500......20........1290....1380...1105....1400... 1183...1.070---.56
5000......20........1320....1412...1257....1420... 1345...1.070---.57
5500......20........1300....1391...1361....1443... 1457...1.070---.56
6000......20........1250....1338...1428....1520... 1528...1.070---.57
6500......20........1200....1284...1485....1560... 1589...1.070---.56

[Hipshot]

What turbos are you running Turboboater and what is your static compression?

[turboboater]

I'm using the same turbos as Unchained but the exhaust housings are bigger. Static compression is 7.5:1

[Unchained]

Is that at the top of the wheel or the bottom? If you look in the Garrett catalog they reference their size by the measurement at the bottom of the wheel and everyone else specs them out by using the top of the wheel measurement. Just remember this if you are comparing wheel sizes.
I got the 94 mm measuring the maximum diameter at the back of the compressor wheel.
The diameter at the leading edge by the nut is 65 mm. which is the ID of the compressor intake.
I take it the maximum OD is the most important for compressing air.
Turboboater,
That dyno sheet takes some major hp jump at the 4000 - 4500 rpm level.
So Bill, what was your impression of jet boats before this year ?? :D

[TurboNova]

I got the 94 mm measuring the maximum diameter at the back of the compressor wheel.
The diameter at the leading edge by the nut is 65 mm. which is the ID of the compressor intake.
I take it the maximum OD is the most important for compressing air.
Turboboater,
That dyno sheet takes some major hp jump at the 4000 - 4500 rpm level.
So Bill, what was your impression of jet boats before this year ?? :D
Like I said it is close to a GT42
Intake inducer 70.3mm (inlet) exducer 94mm (bottom) trim 56 a/r 0.60 Exhaust Wheel Dia 82mm 84 Trim 1.15 A/R.
These also have divided exhaust housing.
They are available in exhaust housings with 1.01 A/R, 1.15 A/R, 1.28 A/R, 1.44 A/R

[sofa king smooth]

Heres a few pics of my 572 efi turbo. Not quite sure of turbo size but I believe there similiar to a gt 40. If you do go with the gt42s you will have to run a decent amout of boost or the boat will feel lazy. I think anything under 16-18psi will be lazy with that big of turbos.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/524/2485DSC03016.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/524/2485DSC03018.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/524/2485DSC03020.JPG
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2485Schiada2.jpg

[TurboNova]

Heres a few pics of my 572 efi turbo. Not quite sure of turbo size but I believe there similiar to a gt 40. If you do go with the gt42s you will have to run a decent amout of boost or the boat will feel lazy. I think anything under 16-18psi will be lazy with that big of turbos.
[/IMG]
Very nice setup. I don't agree about the GT42s though, alot of that can be taken car of with the EFI tune.
What EFI system do you use? Do you have any blow off valves? I didn't see any. Looks very cool.

[sofa king smooth]

Autronics is the management system. I run a gt42 on my sand car and i'm very happy with it. We run motec on that and are able to bring the boost in very early. Alot of my friens have turbo motors in boats and it seems that with big turbos unless you run 20psi or so it tends to be lazy. I don't think blow off are necessary, or atleast i been told. My buddy building a sick twin turbo 540 with motec, hes putting blows offs on for the cool factor. Doesn,t think its really necessary.

[sofa king smooth]

Three rotor on alcohol with a gt42 with an inconel 120 exhaust wheel.12 injectors likes to drink alcohol. Have some dyno footage trying to figure out how to post it.http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/24852_Green_Car.jpg

[TurboNova]

Autronics is the management system. I run a gt42 on my sand car and i'm very happy with it. We run motec on that and are able to bring the boost in very early. Alot of my friens have turbo motors in boats and it seems that with big turbos unless you run 20psi or so it tends to be lazy. I don't think blow off are necessary, or atleast i been told. My buddy building a sick twin turbo 540 with motec, hes putting blows offs on for the cool factor. Doesn,t think its really necessary.
Very good choice in EFI systems about the best there is. I have also heard that about blow offs but I have also seen thrust issues without them, I always use them because so far I have had no problems with using them. What kind of initial timing do you run below the 99-100kpa? Motec and Autronic are the best two EFI systems out there but the price is also big.

[ScapeGoat]

I was trying to find an example of the wastegate on the web site and no luck, do you have any picks of the ones you made
thanks brian

[TurboNova]

I was trying to find an example of the wastegate on the web site and no luck, do you have any picks of the ones you made
thanks brian
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/524/2485DSC03020.JPG
It is just like the wastegate pictured here but with flanges top and bottom instead of just welded into the collector. I usually weld them just like the picture unless it is something I can't weld to.

[Unchained]

Heres a few pics of my 572 efi turbo. Not quite sure of turbo size but I believe there similiar to a gt 40. If you do go with the gt42s you will have to run a decent amout of boost or the boat will feel lazy. I think anything under 16-18psi will be lazy with that big of turbos.
Real nice looking equipment there Sofa.
I would say that with the water cooled exhaust you are having to run a smaller turbo because of the reduced exhaust volume and heat.
That probably would contribute to the "lazy" feel also.
I don't see where the amount of boost would have anything to do with the responsiveness. I've run 13# and pump gas and the spool up time was the same, it just bypassed earlier.
Since Brian identified my TV77's as being real similar to a GT42 I would say that if anything I would go bigger, not smaller, and I'm feeding a 540 CI. My spool up time is real quick at 18# / sec. even with a 1.15 A/R turbine housing.
The jet pump can't take full throttle starts anyways.
I've tried it and the motor goes to over 8 k before the pump hooks up.
Have you datalogged your spool up time?
What did you get ?
I don't have blowoff valves on the intake yet but I need them.
I can see where the compressor wheel and the turbine wheel have touched the housing before because of me backing off the throttle too quick.

[ttmott]

Tom, you can crunch all the numbers that you want but I know what works. Call Precision Turbo and Engine, ask for Patrick 219-996-7832. We talked a couple weeks ago at length about turbos for a 572 in a boat, I was thinking about the GT42s and he still said too small use the GT47. A 60-1 or 60-2 isn't even close to the right combo with the heads and engine they are talking about using. In fact a T4 flange will really choke off allot of air flow. Tell him you want some turbo recommendations on a 572 with twins and see what he says. Don't believe me go to the source. Most of the twin turbo drag cars running this year were using either PT 80mm or 88mm with .96 housings or the GT47-80 or 88. I just go with what works, I am after the big horsepower stuff.
I have had guys from Garrett call and ask me what actually works as opposed to what they have crunched out on paper. Personally I believe your turbos are too small. I would have gone with bigger turbos but that is me, if you are happy with them then great.
Look up a compressor map for a 101mm Garrett and tell me how it crunches out too big for a 406ci engine at 7500-8000 rpms. Then with a 1.32 A/R instead of a 1.0 A/R. That is where I am going.
"Gas temperature at engine manifold (includes intercooler cooling) (TMAN) = 110 Deg F."
Your number here should be lower, we get intake temps more like 60-80, and you should get at least just above lake water temp. If your not then you have the wrong intercooler. We dynoed a BMW tonight and had intake temps of 110 Deg F without any intercooler.
Engine RPM is more like 6500-7000 not 5000, 5000 rpms is for ski boats. If you build a big block of this caliber using Oliver rods ect... why would you only turn 5000 rpms, you could do that with a stock bottom end!
Your calcs also don't take into account the huge flowing heads that the Profiler heads are. Are you saying that a stock set of chevy heads or Profiler heads should use the same turbo just because it's a 572? All I am saying is that there is more to the combo than just crunching air flow across the compressor map. Everything you are crunching is theoretical air flow not actual air flow through the engine, most VE will be greater than 75% mine is more like 85%.
Brian,
Don't know where you got it that I was recommending the 60-1 series compressors; no way, they are too small even for my Hemi. I am recommending either the 42 series Garretts or the Turbonetics 62 series in a duel setup configuration. Remember Hipshot stated he is building a recreation boat not a ski racer or drag boat (even though he has some nice parts) and was interested in some Turbonetics Super T series compressors. The Super T's will work but he will be in the Surge area of the map with possible damage to the units and the low end performance of the engine will suffer. The engine flow demand simply isn't there to stay within the higher compressor efficiencies of the map except for at the upper RPM limits. Cylinder heads and their flow characteristics are not as pronounced with forced induced engines; with that said, however, every little bit helps and the Profiler's will definately be better that stock oval port, for example. Also the A/R is a very nebulous term that there is little info to base sizing on; This value is based on low numbers= fast spool up but high exhaust restrictions at high RPM's and high numbers = slow spool up but low exhaust restrictions at high RPM's. Current thinking for large displacement engines (572 for example) that an A/R of .89 to 1.00 per turbine is adequate street or recreational use. Engines that live above 6000 RPM need bigger A/R's; Based on Hipshot's intro I don't think he is building something that he will keep at 6000 RPM.
So, with that said I'll continue to "crunch numbers" with streetable (boatable) success.
BTW - Sofa, very cool stuff. Did I see that rail at Glamis two years ago Thanksgiving?
Tom

[Hipshot]

Hi ttmott, I don't think you are familiar with jet boats. In a jet boat the engine goes to maximum RPM almost instantly whether you are at idle when you hit it or you are at 3500rpm when you hit. The engine I am building will turn somewhere in the 6300-6600rpm range wide open, and it will see that a few times everytime I go to the lake/river. Normally I will be cruising at somewhere between 3200-4500rpm probably and I will have more power than I need in that range even if the turbos aren't doing much. A jet boat is a totally different deal than a prop boat or a street car. You just can't compare the two, it doesn't work. I will be running two GT-4780 turbos along with two HKS GT2 wastegates, two blow-off valves, billet throttle bodies, PT2400 intercooler, and FAST fuel injection.

[ttmott]

Hipshot, I do know something about jet boats and pumps; not to say I am an expert but I've been around the horn a couple of times. This is my NA jet boat. It is a 468 that turns an AT 9.25 SST impeller. Old tech turbocharging but the intent of the project was to take the wastegate-less turbochargers to the maximum capabilities with carbs. A challenge I wanted to do. The engine turns the big impeller right at 6200 RPM. The turbos are way over their max rated output. They are older Rajay's that have been heavily reworked. The turbine bypass has been machined and orifices installed to up the boost. Carbs are worked 660 center squirters. I have gernaded the setup several times getting every ounce of torque out of it. This is an older pic things are rearanged quite a bit now and the intercooler housing is several generations advanced. This boat hits so hard that the entire hull will leave the water; never does the pump allow the engine bang the rev limiter unless the pump aspirates air when leaving the water. When it comes up on boost at full throttle it will stick right at 6200, no supprises. Folks on the forum (BP and Unchained) have been a great help for me as well however, you need to validate what anyone says. I have three other significant turbocharged projects all of which are FI but not boats. Only one my Hemi is of significant displacement and FI; this one has the Turbonetics 62-1's. The big difference is (and it's my nature and profession) I validate these types of things using data and calculations; right or wrong. Input from everyone here is good information; good dialog.
Tom
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/521/1030DSC00368.JPG

[TurboNova]

Brian,
Don't know where you got it that I was recommending the 60-1 series compressors; no way, they are too small even for my Hemi. I am recommending either the 42 series Garretts or the Turbonetics 62 series in a duel setup configuration. Remember Hipshot stated he is building a recreation boat not a ski racer or drag boat (even though he has some nice parts) and was interested in some Turbonetics Super T series compressors. The Super T's will work but he will be in the Surge area of the map with possible damage to the units and the low end performance of the engine will suffer. The engine flow demand simply isn't there to stay within the higher compressor efficiencies of the map except for at the upper RPM limits. Cylinder heads and their flow characteristics are not as pronounced with forced induced engines; with that said, however, every little bit helps and the Profiler's will definately be better that stock oval port, for example. Also the A/R is a very nebulous term that there is little info to base sizing on; This value is based on low numbers= fast spool up but high exhaust restrictions at high RPM's and high numbers = slow spool up but low exhaust restrictions at high RPM's. Current thinking for large displacement engines (572 for example) that an A/R of .89 to 1.00 per turbine is adequate street or recreational use. Engines that live above 6000 RPM need bigger A/R's; Based on Hipshot's intro I don't think he is building something that he will keep at 6000 RPM.
So, with that said I'll continue to "crunch numbers" with streetable (boatable) success.
Tom
Believe me, Hipshot is looking for something with lots of power, I have talked with him on the phone. If you are going to build a street/weekend boating engine there is no reason to put a "Profiler" or "Big Cheif" head on it if you are looking for a little amount of horsepower. The only reason to use something like that is if you are looking at the 1000+ horsepower range. At that kind of power it becomes more of a drag race engine and less of a weekend boating engine. I just talked to a tuner friend of mine and he said they put together a 632ci big block with twin 101mm turbos 1.0 A/R and maxed out the engine dyno. He has also done a few of the 80mm and 88mm turbos like the GT47. All three of these setups went in offshore boats. A GT42 is borderline too small, yes it would work if you don't push it. Our boat is very clean and nice job on the install but we don't agree on turbo size. Your job? Some kind of engineer? I was a civil engineer with the State of Washington, I quit to open my own shop, tuning, turbo installs and dyno tuning full time. I too can crunch numbers but I also know what works, numbers on paper are just that numbers, real world tuning is something different. For example, we do alot of chassis dyno tuning, it works great to get a real close tune but when taking the car on the street/track the tune will change some. Theory, Testing and Actual Results may vary.

[Hipshot]

Hey Brian, what's up? As soon as I get through this week and Christmas we will be ordering the rest of my parts so get your pencils out and sharpen them up! I got pistons yesterday and they are the same as the CP gold coated pistons I had but lower compression. We'll be at 8:1.1 with the new pistons, and my rods will be here sometime next week as well. Steve Schmidt made me a killer deal on a set of Oliver rods he had in-house so that is what I went with. Schmidt has my heads and is giving them a once over and doing a couple of things to them while he has them. I am getting really excited about this turbo motor build and I still haven't found a 21'Daytona or Edge Phantom that I want to buy. I am thinking about calling to see what a new Edge would run just to see if I have the dough to go that route.
Nice looking set up on your boat ttmott.

[Unchained]

TurboNova,
I didn't see the GT 47 on the www.turbobygarrett.com website.
Where did you find it?
In the catalog they went right from a GT 42 to a GT60.
From what I saw the ball bearing turbos cost 2.5 times the price of the plain bearing models. How much quicker is the spool up time for that much more cost?

[TurboNova]

TurboNova,
I didn't see the GT 47 on the www.turbobygarrett.com website.
Where did you find it?
In the catalog they went right from a GT 42 to a GT60.
From what I saw the ball bearing turbos cost 2.5 times the price of the plain bearing models. How much quicker is the spool up time for that much more cost?
This is a turbo that Precision Turbo and Engine builds. There is a GT45 and GT55 also available. You are right, the ball bearing turbos do cost alot more, the spool up time is usually quite a bit quicker. I think 2.5 times is more than what they cost in my catalog. Usually the ball bearing upgrade is around $800 more but sometimes less. I know some of the import stuff that we have tuned lately have had ball bearing turbos and they will spin alot faster even at idle. The GT42 that we put in the drag boat last year was ball bearing and it would see full boost at 2500 rpms. Now that was also with a set of carbs and locked out timing. We could have made it even better with EFI.

[ttmott]

Believe me, Hipshot is looking for something with lots of power, I have talked with him on the phone. If you are going to build a street/weekend boating engine there is no reason to put a "Profiler" or "Big Cheif" head on it if you are looking for a little amount of horsepower. The only reason to use something like that is if you are looking at the 1000+ horsepower range. At that kind of power it becomes more of a drag race engine and less of a weekend boating engine. I just talked to a tuner friend of mine and he said they put together a 632ci big block with twin 101mm turbos 1.0 A/R and maxed out the engine dyno. He has also done a few of the 80mm and 88mm turbos like the GT47. All three of these setups went in offshore boats. A GT42 is borderline too small, yes it would work if you don't push it. Our boat is very clean and nice job on the install but we don't agree on turbo size. Your job? Some kind of engineer? I was a civil engineer with the State of Washington, I quit to open my own shop, tuning, turbo installs and dyno tuning full time. I too can crunch numbers but I also know what works, numbers on paper are just that numbers, real world tuning is something different. For example, we do alot of chassis dyno tuning, it works great to get a real close tune but when taking the car on the street/track the tune will change some. Theory, Testing and Actual Results may vary.
Yea I'm a Mech. Engineer working proplusion systems in the aerospace ind. at KSC. Mainly I work in cryogenic propellants and vehicle systems including engine turbomachinery and propellant transfer. Hence my dependency on numbers and testing. Your last sentence says it all but it all starts as a baseline with the numbers......

[MikeF]

Tmott, So what you're really saying is that you can design and make an impeller to move more fluid as efficiently as possible(for the jetboaters....of course)! :rollside:

[Tunnel 23]

I just brought this beast home.

[Marlin455]

Tunnel- Can you post some more pics of that 70's turbo setup?
Thanks, Stan