Tunnel or V-Bottom

[NorCalCat]

I have owned several v-bottom boats in the past. I have made a decision to step into the tunnel world. I believe I have decided on the Force 29. However, can you all give me some feedback on why you would go with a tunnel over a v-bottom. I am trying to explain to my wife, but I think she would like to hear it from some owners. The typical conditions we will be running in are similar to Havasu.
We have two young kids and she is concerned about safety regarding the tunnels.
Any and all comments are appreciated.

[jackpunx]

Hopefully insurance wont be an issue.. it usually starts around 3500 a year

[NorCalCat]

I have heard that. However, I also have heard that you can have the trailer register the trailer in CA and the boat in AZ as an out of state resident. This cuts the insurance 1/2.
Like I said, this is what I heard. Can anyone confirm???

[Sandbar Mike]

jackpunx:
Hopefully insurance wont be an issue.. it usually starts around 3500 a year Where do you insure your cat??? eek!
I'm around $1550 w/Farmers
Hey Norcal,
I First and only would say safety, even thought V's are also safe, but something about going fast in a deep V had me a little freaked out at times. You need alot less power to acheive speeds you want.
Those were my 2 sellers, plus hey look meaner than shit :D

[NorCalCat]

Ya, you were the one that turned me on to Force, with a test ride with Dano. I agree with the unsafe feeling in the v when reaching close to 80mph. However, the wife has heard all these rumors of blow overs and stuffing.
I guess I, am just looking for some selling points! I on the other hand am already sold.

[dorC]

Take her for a ride through some rough water. The best stuff is the washing machine water from other boat traffic. She will be amazed. I know my wife is. Just don't mention that whole turning flat/leaning outside issue. :rolleyes:

[LevoeDCB22]

Safety is relative, whether its a v-bottom, or a tunnel... Its only as dangerous as you make it... Get all hammered and go drive your v-bottom fast with your kids and thats just as unsafe as doing the same in a cat. Think I said before, with a loose nut behind the wheel anything with a motors dangerous

[MissHavasuCig]

NorCalCat:
I have heard that. However, I also have heard that you can have the trailer register the trailer in CA and the boat in AZ as an out of state resident. This cuts the insurance 1/2.
Like I said, this is what I heard. Can anyone confirm??? What state you register the boat in doesn't have any effect on insurance ~ you save on the state taxes at purchase (pay AZ not CA taxe rate) and annual registration fees. You can register your boat in the state that you primarily use the boat in (ie: 51% Arizona...). But, be prepared to prove it if CA decides to come after you for not paying CA tax. They came after us on a boat and I sent in proof which they accepted...
Insurance costs co-incide with the horsepower you have ~ more power = more insurance $$$
Good Luck wink

[Three Days Only]

Im registered in AZ, and live in California. No insurance breaks for me. Insurance is high on tunnels, half the insurance companies will not even insure larger cats over 30'. They base the insurance on the value of the boat, top speed, and horsepower. Alot of the guys out here quoting cheap rates, either lie about what there power or do not insure them at full value. If they have a claim and it is investigated there dropped. My insurance is real high. I am currently on my first cat, that also makes a differnce in your insurance. They want to see cat experience .
Cats just ride differnt, much better in my opinion. My wife feels much safer in our cat then she ever did in any of our V bottoms. They are very stable, and there's no side to side rolling. I went in a few differnt cats prior to purchasing mine and they all rode great. Im talking about boats in the 28 to 32 ft range. Ive been in alot of large 38+ V bottoms that ride killer especially in the ocean. The big Cigs, Hustlers, Fountains, they just dont seem to roll around alot, and have very comfortable rides, plus they have living area that you will never get in a cat.
Just my .02
[ October 08, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Three Days Only ]

[Keith E. Sayre]

I'd like to add a few thoughts to these subjects.
These are my opinions and I don't claim to know it
all but I listen to a zillion customers and I think I have it figured out.
(1) The v-bottom will plane faster, will still be
able to function in nasty 5 to 7 foot waves, will
give you a cabin or a mid cabin, and will usually
have more freeboard.
A cat does everything else better! The cat is faster, smoother riding--(unless you go out in
huge nasty water) more fuel efficient, easier to
drive in most cases, much cooler to be seen in,
usually has more storage capability but usually
doesn't have as much cabin height as most v's.
The cat (if you buy the right cat) will lean the
right way when turning or at worst case remain
neutral, it should turn progressively without hooking as well or better than a v bottom--assuming you have the right cat. Best of all,
the ride quality of the cat--you go over bumps and holes in the lake. The v-bottom will go down
through each hole or bump in the lake. The cat
will instill confidence in the driver and the
passengers at fast speeds making everyone feel
safer than the v-bottom.
(2)Insurance and taxes--most people from California do register their boats as "nonresidents" in the state of Arizona assuming that is where you intend to use and/or
store the boat. It's about $125 a year to renew.
If the boat is going back and forth to California, you should register the trailer in California. That's right--the boat in Arizona and the trailer in California that way the CHP
won't get after you when they see the California truck plate. They have no jurisdiction over the boat though. Remember, even though the trailer is carrying the boat, the boat has no legal connection to the trailer.
(3) Insurance, it's more expensive for cats for obvious reasons. Most of our deckboats get insured for less than $1,000 a year. The estimated top of the boat and the horsepower per pound figured in with the length of the boat determines a good portion of your premium.
Be careful not to start bragging to your State Farm agent about how fast your boat goes!
In summary, the only reason that I would buy a v bottom is if I had to have a cabin. End of story.
I hope this may help you.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats
Lake Havasu City
928-680-1400

[Sandbar Mike]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Keith E. Sayre:
(1) The v-bottom will plane faster, will still be
able to function in nasty 5 to 7 foot waves, will
give you a cabin or a mid cabin, and will usually
have more freeboard.
A cat does everything else better! The cat is faster, smoother riding--(unless you go out in
huge nasty water) more fuel efficient, easier to
drive in most cases, much cooler to be seen in,
usually has more storage capability but usually
doesn't have as much cabin height as most v's.
The cat (if you buy the right cat) will lean the
right way when turning or at worst case remain
neutral, it should turn progressively without hooking as well or better than a v bottom--assuming you have the right cat. Best of all,
the ride quality of the cat--you go over bumps and holes in the lake. The v-bottom will go down
through each hole or bump in the lake. The cat
will instill confidence in the driver and the
passengers at fast speeds making everyone feel
safer than the v-bottom.
:D Keith, I couldn't have said it better.
[ October 08, 2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Sandbar Mike ]

[jackpunx]

Sandbar Mike:
jackpunx:
Hopefully insurance wont be an issue.. it usually starts around 3500 a year Where do you insure your cat??? eek!
I'm around $1550 w/Farmers
Hey Norcal,
I First and only would say safety, even thought V's are also safe, but something about going fast in a deep V had me a little freaked out at times. You need alot less power to acheive speeds you want.
Those were my 2 sellers, plus hey look meaner than shit :D I have a mod vp.. My ins is less than yours.. But most people that I know do pay 3k and up for ins..
I love my boat.. and when I upgrade to a bigger boat.. it will be another Tunnel (cat).. You can go through what other people will go around in a Tunnel Goodluck
[ October 08, 2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: jackpunx ]

[Dave C]

Norcal.
Where do you guys go?
On a rough day on Berryessa you would definitely like to have a cat. Those windy days make for some big chop and the tunnel goes right through it.
With a big cat you will be able to hot lap around Berryessa without a problem even on a rough day. Stable, fast and reliable.

[NorCalCat]

Dave C,
We go to Shasta, Delta, Clear Lake, Tahoe, etc. Wherever, we decide at that time. Barryessa is too small. Where do you go and what are you running?

[Dave C]

Mostly Berryessa. Its big enough for us but the resorts suck.
We went to Tahoe, it was nice. I like Shasta too.
I hate the Delta due to the funky smell eek! .
See my profile. Its a 22 Cougar MTR, (cat). Mine is a little small for Tahoe but would work good on the Delta. I think you need 26+ for Tahoe.

[bigq]

If cats are safer than a V-Hull, then why are they more to insure? Why is it more to insure if it is your first cat? Do they charge more for your first V-hull? Why if you had a V and a cat with a 496HO, the cat would be more, safty?

[unleashed]

I think the insurance companies are not dummies. It seems people with cats like to race alot and they know it.
On the other end of the spectrum I think they feel the V bottom is more of a family boat(With a cabin, bed etc.)and not intended to race.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) devil

[STGP]

I think unleashed has a point. What Keith said is accurate as well. I have a 28' cat with a 496HO and pay $1250.00 annually with high limmits.

[Skaterfast]

Tell her they go faster on less gas and handle the rough better.Which is easier on the motor and the gas pump.

[bigq]

unleashed:
I think the insurance companies are not dummies. It seems people with cats like to race alot and they know it.
On the other end of the spectrum I think they feel the V bottom is more of a family boat(With a cabin, bed etc.)and not intended to race.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) devil I doubt thay are that dumb also, but I also don't think they base it on feeling they are safer or not. I would guess they have some hard data to backup the risk associated with a cat or a V-hull.
Or
A lot more people are purchasing the cat hull and just like to charge more for a popular syle hull.

[Dave C]

I think that one of their underwriting categories is speed. On average (not all) cats are faster than v-bottoms. Plus they look at the top-speed (potential) at some production cats and must absolutely freak out.

[Three Days Only]

I found when shopping for insurance that the speed that I stated did not matter. They have a mathematical system that they follow. Manufacturer of hull, Weight of the boat, Horsepower, then they multiply it by a factor my boat was a 290 factor. When they were done the stated the boats top speed was 114. Pretty damn close, within 2. This happened with every insurance company I called that would cover my boat. There were other companies that would quote cheap rates, but they never got it through underwriting. In my opinion the cat is worth the insurance. They now what the boats are capable of and they are screwing us.

[NorCalCat]

Thanks for all the input. One more question, what is everyone towing with. I ma looking at the Force 29, and have a Tahoe 5.3L.

[BADBLOWN572]

I find it funny that the insurance companies can insure a 100mph V bottom with morre power than a 100mph cat with less power. I have been in both at 100mph and I feel much more comfortable in a cat at speed than a V bottom. I would also love to see the statistics on what boats are involved in more accidents. V bottoms or Cats. I would guess it is V bottoms. I have not heard of many cats being in accidents, but I have heard of a lot of V's crashing. Come to think of it, I do not know one person that was involved in a crash in a cat. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that cats are as safe, if not safer than a V bottom, yet we end up paying 2-3x as much for insurance. STUPID!

[bigq]

BADBLOWN572:
I find it funny that the insurance companies can insure a 100mph V bottom with morre power than a 100mph cat with less power. I have been in both at 100mph and I feel much more comfortable in a cat at speed than a V bottom. I would also love to see the statistics on what boats are involved in more accidents. V bottoms or Cats. I would guess it is V bottoms. I have not heard of many cats being in accidents, but I have heard of a lot of V's crashing. Come to think of it, I do not know one person that was involved in a crash in a cat. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that cats are as safe, if not safer than a V bottom, yet we end up paying 2-3x as much for insurance. STUPID! That's what I would like to know, are they safer and if why the hell do they charge more, It's a conspiracy.

[bigq]

NorCalCat:
Thanks for all the input. One more question, what is everyone towing with. I ma looking at the Force 29, and have a Tahoe 5.3L. Yikes!! eek!

[jackpunx]

someone call Arnold quick!!!

[jackpunx]

NorCalCat:
Thanks for all the input. One more question, what is everyone towing with. I ma looking at the Force 29, and have a Tahoe 5.3L. You could probably tow it.. but you will kill that truck.. You might think about a trade in.. I tow my 22'4" with a GMC 3500 4x4 454 with gears... I’m thinking of upgrading to a diesel.. It might be overkill.. But that is just me (not just me now that I think about it)

[NorCalCat]

I have been thinking about trading it in, that is why I pose the question. The yuppie grocery getter is the wifes. I should have thought this trough when I bought it. Hopefuly it will survive one summer.

[unleashed]

If you trade in definitly go Diesel. You wont regret it. Your tahoe could probably handle one season of towing but thats it. The tranny will not hold up gauranteed.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) devil

[Havasu Cig]

BADBLOWN572:
I find it funny that the insurance companies can insure a 100mph V bottom with morre power than a 100mph cat with less power. I have been in both at 100mph and I feel much more comfortable in a cat at speed than a V bottom. I would also love to see the statistics on what boats are involved in more accidents. V bottoms or Cats. I would guess it is V bottoms. I have not heard of many cats being in accidents, but I have heard of a lot of V's crashing. Come to think of it, I do not know one person that was involved in a crash in a cat. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that cats are as safe, if not safer than a V bottom, yet we end up paying 2-3x as much for insurance. STUPID! I know of at least a few cats that have crashed, not including races, so I don't think your statement is totally correct.
As far as being safe I think it depends on the boat. I have ridden in both cats and V's that have felt unsafe.
My o/b Mach 26 got a little sketchy at about 100 once on flat water, but overall felt very safe.
My Cig has never felt unsafe no matter what the conditions or speed was. A friend has been close to 130 in a 37 Outerlimits in San Diego and said it felt very safe.
It all depends on the boat. My.02.

[Dave C]

what... insurance companies are a bunch of crooks?!?....... wink go figure.....

[Restless22]

My wife works for AAA insurance, we insure our 22' cat with 1 million liability for under $400 a year, and thats without an employee discount.
Every insurance company rates there boats diffrently,but she can tell you, the number one factor with any insurance is cost of boat, and age of drivers. How much are they covering, and what the speed is. She can insure a 25' cat, for 85k for under $850 a year.
After riding in a tunnel, I will never go back to a Vhull...simple as that.
Just my $.02

[timewarp]

Restless 22,
Can your wife sell insurance in other states, our AAA agent up here said that he couldn't insure any performance boats, either cat or V that went over 70 MPH.
If so can you email me her contact information.
Thank you,
Caleb Reese

[Havasu Cig]

AAA would not insure our cats or our Cig, and we have all of our cars through them. I think the cut off was 80 mph for the cat, and they would not touch the Cig just because of the brand. They had a list of boats they would not insure.

[Restless22]

She can only insure through California, and only if your homeowners is through AAA also. I dont know who you talked to, but she can do a 85k 25ft. tunnel. She said it has to go through managment approval, but it can happen. Anyone in Nor-Cal that needs it, let me know and Ill give you her contact info. Good luck in Wa.

[BADBLOWN572]

I find insurance rates rediculous (?sp). When I was building mine, I shopped everyone that I could possibly imagine. The only company that I could find that would insure mine was State Farm and they would only go 100-300k for $6,200.00 a year with $50,000 replacement value. They looked at age, and H.P. One of the insurance agents laughed at me. I was pissed. I had to go another route. I opened up a corporation that specialized in "boat repair and service." I was able to get manufacturers insurance at a much better rate with 1,000,000-2,000,000 coverage with any cost to replace a boat. Any boat that I am in (or my employees) falls under the policy. If someone else is driving, I (or one of my employees) simply has to be in the boat and they must be doing "testing or performing a demo." It is a pain in the butt to get it setup, but once it is done, you can insure any amount of boats you desire, provided that they are owned by the company, and any of your employees can operate any boat at any time being fully covered under the policy.

[Three Days Only]

I could never involve my personal pleasures with my business. There's always the chance that an accident could happen, and I would never want my business involved in a situation that could screw up my or my employee's lively hoods. Theres just too much liabilty for the company. Doesnt your insurance company seperate business situations from a pleasure trip, and if so would you still be covered. A weekend in Havasu over July 4th with the family on the boat doesnt sound like testing.
Just my .02 - Im sure it works just sounds sketchy
[ October 14, 2003, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: Three Days Only ]

[Lakeshow]

I am going to toss in my .02 as a dreaded insurance broker.
First, I am one that likes to look at all of the angles and look for an edge or another way to do something in order to do it better or save a few bucks. That being said, while the separate company sounds good there is a catch. The catch is that unless you are actually operating a bonafide boat repair company that is actually doing that type of business you are running a huge risk of, in the event of loss, being examined by the carrier and found to have committed, bad word here, a fraud in order to entice and insurer to provide coverage at a rate that they normally would not have provided.
Bottom Line is that it is way too risky, in my opinion, to place yourself in that position. Did you get advice from an insurance broker on this?
As for the price of insurance - it does seem out of line, however, try to think of the potential for disaster that exists with our hot boats. 70-160 (in some cases) or average 90+ on the water with no required training and no brakes. Prior to the HTM mishap on Castaic most insurance carriers had no idea of the speed potential and corresponding potential for catastrophy. As for the difference in safety between Cats and V's - I personally own a V and think (my opinion) that it is safer on the water at 70-80 mph that a cat doing the same speed as the odds of the V stuffing or spinning vs. a cat stuffing a sponson or spinning are slim to none, again, my opinion.
By the way, I pay about $1,200 a year through Allstate for my DCB. Seems reasonable to me as they are about to pick up the tab for a $17,000 engine rebuild after a run in with a sandbar.

[BADBLOWN572]

As for the keeping business seperate from personal, I did keep it seperate. We opened up another corporation completely seperate from any corporation that we are using. Additionally, when we did setup the corporation, it was understood that the corporation is a small corporation that does less than $100,000 worth of sales or service per year. The insurance knows that we are very small and we have to show any type of receipts or invoices for service that we have done. I think last year it was somewhere between 10-15k or so. When it comes to holiday weekends or anything else. The insurance companies say that we can use the boat without a problem for promotion. They agree that if someone wants to get a product or service out, the best time is to be visible in a highly populated area. Therefore they cover the boat any time that it is on the water. I agree that it would be better to be personally insured or insure the boat itself, but I would rather do it this way than to pay 6k a year for poor coverage. No reputable company would insure me for a fair replacement value with a high enough coverage to where I felt safe.

[Three Days Only]

It just seems that if something happended on the water. The attorneys have a personal attachment and an attachment to a company to persue. It just sounds risky, If it works for you thats great. Im not knocking you, it all comes down to whatever works best.