Boat damage (not pretty)

[Squirtcha?]

Well.........here it is. This is the aftermath of my last trip to the lake this year.
First off, I'm pretty sure that the throughbolted fuel tank hardware may have caused this delamination. I'd probably suggest not doing this, unless you know you've got lots of material in that area. Mine was only a 1/4" thick where I drilled to mount em.
Now the question is.........do you think this is repairable?
I'm gonna give it a shot, but would be interested to hear your opinions. Keep in mind that I said the glass was only 1/4" thick in the section that's missing. About half of that is gone which means there's only about 1/8" of original glass there now. I guess the question weighing on me now, is if that's enough material to get a good bond to and maintain the structural integrity. At least part of what's left will have to be ground away too so I can get a good surface to bond with.
I'm not in a position to buy another hull right now (if I was, I'd be setting up a deal with Pat aka Budlight for Misfit). My girlfriend starts a 2 year program to be an RN next month, so needless to say with four kids and only one of us working, money's gonna be a little tight for a while. That means I either make do with what I have now, or go without a boat for a year or two.
Thus, I make the repairs and see how solid it turns out. If it doesn't look like it'll be safe, "Squirtcha?" gets cut up and my wait for another hull begins.
Lemmee know whatcha'll think.
Dan
Oh yeah, the damage
http://www.jetheaven.us/photopost/data/500/19damage.jpg

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Holy $hit dan!!!!!!!!!!! I didnt know that it was that bad!!!!!!!!!

[Danhercules]

Damn Dan. That sucks.
Hope there is some good news for ya. I though I was shit out of luck with my crack, but Futs and his old man helped me out and got it better than new.

[olbiezer]

dan.... the beauty with fiberglass is about anything can be fixed.......it may look bad but a glass man can fix that to a point u wont even know it was broke........

[1975sleekcraft]

take the tank back out-and anything else behind the damage.
do your structural repair back there--add 1/8 to 1/4 inch fiberglass.
on the outside-do a cosmedic repair-some fiberglass and filler.
if you prep it right the repaired side will be stronger than the other.

[Nucking futs]

Dan, I have seen worse, you should be able to patch that and make it like new.

[SoggyJet]

Dan,
I hate when stuff like that happens!! That really doesn't look that bad - I have seen much worse made like new again. A guy at my friends marina ran over some rocks and scraped the bottom almost through, the fiberglass guy layed in several layers of mat, roving and glass and it is probably stronger than new.
It looks like the area you need to repair would not be in the water on your top speed runs, so it could be blended and not hurt the top end. I am sure a glass guy could have it done in no time, but I would bet you are going to do it yourself - and will do an excellant job of it. Really should not be any harder than the blueprint job you did last year. Would be easier if you flipped her over, but I am sure you could manage the repair with her upright. (just more messy for the technician :) )
Time and money for the hobbies takes a hit, but I am sure the GF is worth the sacrifice. Good luck. Oh how did that big water ski work for you this year? I did not do much sking this year, did something to my hip over the July 4th weekend.
Doug McCoy

[jamessampica]

Dan that don't look to bad to me.My ? is how does the other side look like?
Sleekcraft has the right idea but i would look at the other side just to make sure it's not doing the same thing.
That look's like something hit it pretty dam hard or something was rubbing on it like a rock or a log on the beach.I could be wrong but there look's like there's a really deep scratch on the out board side of the damage.
I can't believe that the thru bolt's for your tank's made this happen since i've got my tank's done that way.And there's been no problem with mine or any of the thousand's that are done this way for year's.
I'm still going with my theory that something in the water like a rock or a log while you were running along or while you were sitting on the beach.
If you need two more hand's let me know.I'll help you.
Just my .02 cent's
JIM S

[LUVNLIFE]

That def looks fixable. Get it to someone competant and I'm sure you won't have a prob. :cool:

[Squirtin Thunder]

That def looks fixable. Get it to someone competant and I'm sure you won't have a prob. :cool:
I think Dan is the Man for the job !!!

[sanger rat]

No problem. Use some West System epoxy.

[bp]

hell dan, you didn't even put a giant crack, or punch a hole in it :rolleyes:
and like jim, i don't think your tank bolts had anything to do with it...

[Duane HTP]

That boat is very fixable. Here is one that we had problems with. Got it backup. It was repaired and ran as good as ever. Fiberglass is very repairable.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/images/RD1444.jpg
http://http://www.hi-techperformance.com/images/RD1.jpg
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/images/1450.jpg

[Squirtcha?]

Oh cool. I'm gettin the warm fuzzies now.
Soggy, Squirtin, Jim Sampica, and Nucking are all correct about one thing. I'll be doing the repairs. I always try to do things myself when possible. I know I'm no expert with the glass, but I did get some experience last winter when blueprinting the hull. I did o.k. with that and it's holding up fine after a years worth of use (checked it while under there today).
The boat's completely stripped and ready to be flipped. Got a couple weeks of vacation coming up, so I won't have to rush.
Thanks for the offer to assist Jim. Might just take ya up on that too. Incidently, I will be doing the other side while I have it flipped over.
Dan
Once again, I appreciate the words of encouragement. Feeling better already.

[RICHARD TILL]

ths stripping and flipping is the worst part. this is a no-brainer with it flipped. you ought to see race boats that hit the timing lights at 100m.p.h. they come back the next day. paint the cleaned surface with fiberglass resin, saturate the fiberglass matting or cloth 100% and lay it on. wait for it to get tacky enough not to run then put your next applications on til its thick enough. let it set up. now comes the straightedge and grinding. it`ll be stronger than the other side. p.s. you`ll itch for days.

[jamessampica]

Dan just let me know when and where and i'm there to help ya.I'm off work over the holiday's{Christmas and New Year}.Last day of work is Dec. 21st i hope :rollside: .
JIM S

[blown428fe]

I Agree With Duane, Very Fixable. Im Good Friends With A Glass Man And Have Seen Some Major Damage.

[sleekcrafter]

Dan that don't look to bad to me.My ? is how does the other side look like?
Sleekcraft has the right idea but i would look at the other side just to make sure it's not doing the same thing.
That look's like something hit it pretty dam hard or something was rubbing on it like a rock or a log on the beach.I could be wrong but there look's like there's a really deep scratch on the out board side of the damage.
I can't believe that the thru bolt's for your tank's made this happen since i've got my tank's done that way.And there's been no problem with mine or any of the thousand's that are done this way for year's.
I'm still going with my theory that something in the water like a rock or a log while you were running along or while you were sitting on the beach.
If you need two more hand's let me know.I'll help you.
Just my .02 cent's
JIM S
I second James S, there does seem to be a big scrape down there, and the material is still secure at the bolt positions. Dan it's a terrible thing to fix, but is totally repairable. I guess we all know what your doing off season :D
Sleek
Getter DONE!!

[TRG]

http://www.jetheaven.us/photopost/data/500/19damage.jpg[/QUOTE]
I'd be willing to bet that is was a little strake damage, you see that alot from peops who beach their boats alot at like for instance a "SANDBAR" and the waves rock back and forth and heaven for bid there might be a rock under there, or just plain ol' haulin the mail and anything whatsoever in the water can grab ahold of the hull and have it's way with it! lol
Dan you if anyone here can do it!
Good luck!
Todd

[Liberator TJ1984]

Damn !!!
ya musta been going soooo faaaassstttt , ya cooked the bottom :p
LewdAct's boat here on the boards had a MUCH worse section ripped off on it that that and he repaired it...
Your just gonna be scratchin' for a while :crossx:
If you can hook up with someone and get some Tyvek coveralls to wear while grinding they work good keeping the dust off....and before grinding, cover yourself with baby powder ,it helps ...some folks cover with vasaline but that's just not right by me :yuk:

[Jake W2]

Dan looks like it split right at the roving.Looks like an easy fix you should have no problems doing it your self.
Duane is that Rogers old Cheyenne?
Jake

[73kona455]

maybe a previously patched area that came apart?.. should be a easy fix.. and as someone else said.. i would reinforce it on the inside too

[CompStompinSCS]

Dan, I have never met you but I have fallowed your work for many years. I like the way you try and help everyone with your step by step mods.

[bakerjet]

i would think you can fix that,my buddy has 19' daytona he had an accident at possum kingdom lake in texas, tore a long gash in one of the front sponsons and the boat sank in seconds in 90' of water he recovered it 3 days later and it's back to being a solid 90mph boat. i think fiberglass reformations is in pheonix they helped me over the phone, i got their # out of ***boat.
hey dan on second thought this is a good reason to start looking for that gullwing that i know you want...cuz everybody does.

[NELSON#109]

No problem. Use some West System epoxy.
BE CAREFULL W/ THE WEST SYSTEM... ITS BEEN A WHILE, BUT I KNOW I STOPPED USING IT A LONG TIME AGO... BECAUSE THERE IS A BONDING PROBLEM BETWEEN WEST SYT & POLYESTER RESIN.. ANYHOW, I WOULD USE REGULAR POLY RESIN... THATS THE SCOOP I GOT YEARS AGO FROM A AIRCRAFT FIBERGLASS GUY....
BTW, THE FLEX AND STRESS CAUSED BY THE THROUGH BOLTS MAY HAVE CAUSED THE DAMAGE, BUT IT DOESNT LOOK THAT WAY TO ME.. IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE THEY KEEPT PART OF THE HULL TOGATHER.... IVE NEVER SEEN ANY PROBLEMS WITH THRU BOLTED TANKS, AND IVE OWNED AND ABUSED AFEW BOATS WITH THEM... IT DOESNT LOOK TO BAD... GET IT FIXED... NELSON#109

[EXTREMEBOATS]

:argue: I cant agree more... Stay away from the West crap. Use GP resin and be sure to grind out any delam.... Your repair will be stronger then the rest of the hull. I would use a Bi-Matt in place of the heavy roving used to build the boat. Layer matt "1.5- 2oz" between your Bi-matt and it will be bad to the bone. If you have any questions call, I'll be happy to help.
Mike :rollside:

[Rampager]

Hey Dan, sorry to see you've had some issues, I guess thats what to expect when you try to pull max performance out of something.
Im sure you can get it fixed up, altho it is too bad its not a writeoff so you have a really good excuse to get an ALUMINUM boat! hehe we don't have these issues, you could fix something like that in a hour with a welder and you'd be back on the water haha
Good luck with the repair, hope you're 'wet' again soon
Cheers

[b's sanger]

Well.........here it is. This is the aftermath of my last trip to the lake this year.
First off, I'm pretty sure that the throughbolted fuel tank hardware may have caused this delamination. I'd probably suggest not doing this, unless you know you've got lots of material in that area. Mine was only a 1/4" thick where I drilled to mount em.
Now the question is.........do you think this is repairable?
I'm gonna give it a shot, but would be interested to hear your opinions. Keep in mind that I said the glass was only 1/4" thick in the section that's missing. About half of that is gone which means there's only about 1/8" of original glass there now. I guess the question weighing on me now, is if that's enough material to get a good bond to and maintain the structural integrity. At least part of what's left will have to be ground away too so I can get a good surface to bond with.
I'm not in a position to buy another hull right now (if I was, I'd be setting up a deal with Pat aka Budlight for Misfit). My girlfriend starts a 2 year program to be an RN next month, so needless to say with four kids and only one of us working, money's gonna be a little tight for a while. That means I either make do with what I have now, or go without a boat for a year or two.
Thus, I make the repairs and see how solid it turns out. If it doesn't look like it'll be safe, "Squirtcha?" gets cut up and my wait for another hull begins.
Lemmee know whatcha'll think.
Dan
Oh yeah, the damage
http://www.jetheaven.us/photopost/data/500/19damage.jpg
It can be done, trust me.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2855ouch2.JPG

[TIMINATOR]

There was a thread about 6 months ago in which a newbie asked what would be a good, solid, first jet boat for the family. In my reply I repeated a term used by a known boat builder, "potato-chip" hull. Many of you climbed all over me for using that term when all I was doing was trying to give a little asked for advice from the standpoint of someone who has been HOT boating for over 30 years. Since I didn't get any apologies from those who belittled me for my re-use of that term, I won't offer any either. Dan, this is in no way personal, too bad that your boat had to be the example. To those of you that directed me to this thread, you were right, it was interesting. TIMM

[b's sanger]

There was a thread about 6 months ago in which a newbie asked what would be a good, solid, first jet boat for the family. In my reply I repeated a term used by a known boat builder, "potato-chip" hull. Many of you climbed all over me for using that term when all I was doing was trying to give a little asked for advice from the standpoint of someone who has been HOT boating for over 30 years. Since I didn't get any apologies from those who belittled me for my re-use of that term, I won't offer any either. Dan, this is in no way personal, too bad that your boat had to be the example. To those of you that directed me to this thread, you were right, it was interesting. TIMM
That made as much sense as tits on a bull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lucky]

while your at it , You ought to look at glassing in some wood on the inside and run your bolts up threw that - I think you may Pick up .00000000010 mph by eliminating the drag :) fill in the holes and wallla - your done

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

while your at it , You ought to look at glassing in some wood on the inside and run your bolts up threw that - I think you may Pick up .00000000010 mph by eliminating the drag :) fill in the holes and wallla - your done
Did I ever mention that you are LAME lucky????

[Squirtin Thunder]

It can be done, trust me.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2855ouch2.JPG
Brian thats yuuukkkyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[Captain Assin' Off]

If you don't want to roll your boat over to fix it, give it a coating of Laminating Resin, after a thorough sanding. The Laminating Resin will stay tacky for your application of roving and mat. Use Laminating resin for your layering, and use finish resin with a couple for your finish, scuff, gelcoat, and paint. Take your time, feather your edges, don't mix your batches too hot, and you'll be fine. You'll be itchy though! I've done tons of heavy 'glass work, it is very workable.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

There was a thread about 6 months ago in which a newbie asked what would be a good, solid, first jet boat for the family. In my reply I repeated a term used by a known boat builder, "potato-chip" hull. Many of you climbed all over me for using that term when all I was doing was trying to give a little asked for advice from the standpoint of someone who has been HOT boating for over 30 years. Since I didn't get any apologies from those who belittled me for my re-use of that term, I won't offer any either. Dan, this is in no way personal, too bad that your boat had to be the example. To those of you that directed me to this thread, you were right, it was interesting. TIMM
Please define the trem :potatoe-chip" hull :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Hey dan if you have any issues please let me know. We can go to bergerons and talk to "bobby" . He is the glassmaster.I personally watched him fix a superstock hull that had about 8 feet ripped off. When he was done in looked better than new. The funny thing is that the same boat was winning the ss finals last year untill he blew up the motor. I think it was dave bryants but not positive. Let me know if you need anything brotha;)

[TRG]

I think Dan will do fine by himself, he has proven to quite a few people that he can and will probably want to do all of his work himself, if he wants some direction, im sure this is just the place he will start with the questions!
As for the lam resin, i dont think he will have to go that route only because there is not that much fill to apply,... i figure he could just run down to the local Home Depot and grab some evercoat (thick enough) fiberglass resin and start there,...Captain, in no way am i trying to undermind your input here, but i am not too sure where Dan is located, so a supplier might be tough to find!
BTW Dan, if you need any Laminating wheels (used for tight laminating bond,removes air bubbles, excess resin,etc...!)drop me a dime and i'll send one out to ya.
Todd

[TIMINATOR]

B's and 396; Many people on this board climbed in every orifice I had when I referred to the older, inexpensive hulls as Potato-chip hulls, this term was NOT coined by me. These are known in the industry as early boats, made by mostly now defunct companys, made to enter into the marketplace and get established as a builder. Less weight=more speed and less materials=more profits. As stated by a major manufacturer; "who knew these boats would still be around after 30 years, we didn't expect them to last 10 years". Thats not what they were "designed" for. As stated by Dan:this area looks to be only about 1/4" thick. Many boats that we have worked on are 1/2" or more in that area, including my step-kid's Hawaiian. With an ultrasonic thickness tester,(we have one), its easy to tell what you have before you get into trouble. Potato-chip=light layup, whether built for racing, or economy when building. TIMM

[old rigger]

I'd kinda like to know what boats those in the industry today consider to be 'early boats' or 'potato-chip hulls'. My friend runs one of the busiest glass repair shops in so cal and does repairs for most of the players in todays boat building biz and I'm not the least bit impressed by what's being built today compared to what we did back in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. (unless you're crawling around a new Schiada) In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a better lay-up today when compared to what Spectra, Rogers, Howard, Hondo and so on, were doing 25 years ago.
I am, on the other hand, impressed by the materials being used today, very cool.
A 1/4 - 3/8 inch of glass in the area of damage to squirts boat, the outer lifting strake to the chine, is normal for almost any 18 foot boat built in the 70's. I built Hawaiians and I can guarantee you that they weren't 1/2 thick in that same area. Squirts lay up does look to be on the thin side though, a skin of 3oz, a layer of roving and another layer of mat would barley be 1/4 inch.
By the way, using a Hawaiian for an example of almost any kind is not the smartest thing to do.
I'd also steer clear of any builder who said "who knew these boats would still be around after 30 years, we didn't expect them to last 10 years". Thats not what they were "designed" for.
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this board. Even Hawaiian boats, who was the first to finance boats for 15 years, had more vision than that.
The only thing the boats weren't designd for back in the day is the amazing amount of horsepower you lucky bastards have avalable to you now.

[Captain Assin' Off]

No offense taken. I should have paid more attention. The damage really isn't bad. I had to repair my Hondo after being hit by another boat, and that's how it worked, but the damage was horrible. And to old Rigger, I totally agree, after getting "intimately involved" with every inch of that Hondo, I am totally impressed with the quality of the build, even if they weren't expected to survive that long. Mines a '76 full stringer, Tee deck. I'll post pic's.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

B's and 396; Many people on this board climbed in every orifice I had when I referred to the older, inexpensive hulls as Potato-chip hulls, this term was NOT coined by me. These are known in the industry as early boats, made by mostly now defunct companys, made to enter into the marketplace and get established as a builder. Less weight=more speed and less materials=more profits. As stated by a major manufacturer; "who knew these boats would still be around after 30 years, we didn't expect them to last 10 years". Thats not what they were "designed" for. As stated by Dan:this area looks to be only about 1/4" thick. Many boats that we have worked on are 1/2" or more in that area, including my step-kid's Hawaiian. With an ultrasonic thickness tester,(we have one), its easy to tell what you have before you get into trouble. Potato-chip=light layup, whether built for racing, or economy when building. TIMM
Hmmm very interesting..............

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

I'd kinda like to know what boats those in the industry today consider to be 'early boats' or 'potato-chip hulls'. My friend runs one of the busiest glass repair shops in so cal and does repairs for most of the players in todays boat building biz and I'm not the least bit impressed by what's being built today compared to what we did back in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. (unless you're crawling around a new Schiada) In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a better lay-up today when compared to what Spectra, Rogers, Howard, Hondo and so on, were doing 25 years ago.
I am, on the other hand, impressed by the materials being used today, very cool.
A 1/4 - 3/8 inch of glass in the area of damage to squirts boat, the outer lifting strake to the chine, is normal for almost any 18 foot boat built in the 70's. I built Hawaiians and I can guarantee you that they weren't 1/2 thick in that same area. Squirts lay up does look to be on the thin side though, a skin of 3oz, a layer of roving and another layer of mat would barley be 1/4 inch.
By the way, using a Hawaiian for an example of almost any kind is not the smartest thing to do.
I'd also steer clear of any builder who said "who knew these boats would still be around after 30 years, we didn't expect them to last 10 years". Thats not what they were "designed" for.
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever read on this board. Even Hawaiian boats, who was the first to finance boats for 15 years, had more vision than that.
The only thing the boats weren't designd for back in the day is the amazing amount of horsepower you lucky bastards have avalable to you now.
Thats real talk right there;) ;)

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

B's and 396; Many people on this board climbed in every orifice I had when I referred to the older, inexpensive hulls as Potato-chip hulls, this term was NOT coined by me. These are known in the industry as early boats, made by mostly now defunct companys, made to enter into the marketplace and get established as a builder. Less weight=more speed and less materials=more profits. As stated by a major manufacturer; "who knew these boats would still be around after 30 years, we didn't expect them to last 10 years". Thats not what they were "designed" for. As stated by Dan:this area looks to be only about 1/4" thick. Many boats that we have worked on are 1/2" or more in that area, including my step-kid's Hawaiian. With an ultrasonic thickness tester,(we have one), its easy to tell what you have before you get into trouble. Potato-chip=light layup, whether built for racing, or economy when building. TIMM
HEy timm, Were you at the races last month?? If so what did you run????

[TIMINATOR]

Old Rigger: AGAIN,THAT WAS NOT MY STATEMENT about longetivity of the early boats. If you call me, I will tell you who said it. 623-877-8553 The conversation that that statement was made in was off the record. P.S. regarding your Hawaiian comment, refer back to my earlier statement about the sonic tester (ours is a "nuclear industry grade" Krautkramer-Branson). Also to the rest of the followers not in the boat industry; boats are laid up one at a time, often by different individuals within the same company, although frowned upon by the owners and foremen, different people laid up hulls their own way. The older boats have MANY variances from hull to hull. Blanket statements about specific older hulls can only be made if many of them are inspected from different eras. Also, do to the same quality control issues, most of the companys that had these issues are no longer in business. The speaker of the statement in question is. TIMINATOR

[TIMINATOR]

Shop backlog kept us away from the races, also we are opening a race/perf shop in Havasu, we have little free time for much of anything, although I did run Lake Pleasant last Saturday and Sunday. We had 3 boats there for testing. TIMINATOR

[moneysucker]

I know that my old 73 Tahiti was one of the thickest boats I have ever seen. I hit a big rock at night hard and barely scuffed the Metal flake. My 81 southwind drag tunnel is a very light lay up but nothing compared to the C&H hydro I had which was definately a potato chip hull. I have heard the Term Potato chip hull before but not in a really negative way. It was meaning a light/ race lay up, that is all. ANd with any light lay up boat, precautions must be taken when driving in conditions other than smooth water that they were designed for.

[old rigger]

P.S. regarding your Hawaiian comment, refer back to my earlier statement about the sonic tester (ours is a "nuclear industry grade" Krautkramer-Branson). Also to the rest of the followers not in the boat industry; boats are laid up one at a time, often by different individuals within the same company, although frowned upon by the owners and foremen, different people laid up hulls their own way. The older boats have MANY variances from hull to hull. Blanket statements about specific older hulls can only be made if many of them are inspected from different eras. Also, do to the same quality control issues, most of the companys that had these issues are no longer in business. The speaker of the statement in question is. TIMINATOR
Not true. Every company worth it's salt has a strict laminating schedule that's followed by every laminator for each set of molds. Materials are measured out along with resin and so on. If there's any variance between parts out of the same mold it's very minor and would only be the amount of resin left in the material, some laminators squeegee out more making for a stonger lay-up others leave a resin rich lay-up. This would never amount to an extra 1/4 inch in the area of question here, unless you're talking about using a chopper gun, which Hawaiian didn't (except for the tri-hulls). The only other variance would be a custom ordered lay-up which we did now and then, even at Hawaiian.
As for you statement of a laminator laying up a part 'his' way instead of following the schehule, he wouldn't last at any of the shops I worked at. It just doesn't happen unless you have a forman who doesn't possess a spine or an owner who doesn't care.
By the way, most shops that aren't around from back in the day, that might have these 'issues', were done in by the energy crunch of the late 70's, were sold off because the owner wanted to retire, went out of biz because the owner died, closed the doors because the market changed and they didn't want to change with it. I can only think of one or two that went out of bussiness because of poor workmanship. I can think of many though that should have gone out of biz for pooor workmanship. lol

[EXTREMEBOATS]

Boy has this post started some shit!!!! What ever you do use, make sure the prep work is right... I really dont see you ever going back to do it over.... If so I can only say you didnt take the time the first time. West, Poly,Vinal..... Every one has its place but they ALL will fix your boat....
Mike :argue:

[bp]

This would never amount to an extra 1/4 inch in the area of question here, unless you're talking about using a chopper gun, which Hawaiian didn't (except for the tri-hulls).
just out of curiousity, what kind of variances would have been seen using the chopper gun approach? from just talking to people, it seems like there's a lot of variation just in the weight of the same hull out of the same mold..

[TIMINATOR]

BP; true story. At many of the old (and still in business) hull mfgrs. most any variance could and still can be had, sometimes for extra cash, sometimes free. I do believe that there is one mfgr that ADVERTISES, we never build two boats alike! TIMM

[old rigger]

just out of curiousity, what kind of variances would have been seen using the chopper gun approach? from just talking to people, it seems like there's a lot of variation just in the weight of the same hull out of the same mold..
BP, you are correct, there's always variances between 2 boats being pulled out of the same mold. If the laminator is doing his job, there's very little in the lay-up, which is what we're talking about here. There also wood density, even though we're using kiln dried stringer wood, for the most part, there's a difference in the weight of material beign used from one boat to another, like plywood. There's also a difference in material being used when it comes to bonding different pieces of wood to the layed up part. Dash wood, transom wood, gunnale wood, stringers, different braces and so on. The wetted out glass that sandwiched in-between the part and the wood, a dash for example, is sometimes scraps of material, different weight of mat, 2oz, 3 oz, etc. Not much in the big picture but enough to make a difference when comparing 2 boats from the same builder.
A chopper gun on the other hand is an evil tool, designed by the devil (sorry Buck Smith, just kidding). The variances here can be extreme. When someone talented is using the gun, a nice lay-up can be the result. Like patio furniture, or resturant seats, like Hallett use to build, they still might, I don't know, but they knew how to use one of these monsters. Boats like Bayliner are all chopper gunned, but the process is different than say Galaxie boats. I spent 6 months there once, nicest family on the planet and a nice enough place to work but the boats were truely, entry level, bottom feeder boats. I once had a cut out for a pump, a rairity at that shop, that was 5/8 of an inch thicker on one side than the other. That's extreme when you consider the hole is only 8 inches wide. Not much fun in trying to set an intake. There weren't two boats that ever came out of that shop the same, hell, there was no one boat that was equal side to side, that came out of there. But they sold a ton of boats and no one seemed to care.
Like I agreed above, there are always slight varances between hulls out out he same mold in a shop where things are done the same boat for boat (unless a custom order comes along) but that difference won't be 1/4 of an inch in the area of damage of the boat that started this thread. I'd love to see timinator's kids 18 Hawaiian (I'm assuming it's an 18, because my statemant eariler was about 18 foot boats from this era, timinator jumped in with his results from his double throw down sonic tester and his kids boat being 1/2 thick in the same area) I don't believe it, the bottom was either repaired, there's extra material from gas tank bonds where's he measuring, or any number of reasons that could have happened in the boats 25, or so, year history. The little 18 Hawaiians were just not layed up that way.
and timinator said this in his last post..."And I do believe that there is one mfgr that ADVERTISES, we never build two boats alike!"
Yeah, I'm sure that the advertiser wasn't at all refering to the custom 'one at a time' way they build boats. The 'whatever the customer want's, he gets' way of doing things.
No, it must be in reference to the slight differences in the laminating schedule's. Yes, that must be it.

[Squirtcha?]

Wow, this thing really has gone round n round hasn't it? I will interject with one point here quickly. A more reliable means of checking the thickness of a boat (as opposed to a sonic tester) is to drill holes in the bottom. O.k. I know, most folks don't want to drill holes in the bottom of their boats, however it did prove out one thing...........The thickness of the bottom of my Kachina was exactly the same on both sides. This would seem to indicate (at least to my untrained self) that they intended to do em this way, moreover they're probably all pretty close to being the same from boat to boat (aka other Kachinas of the same era).

[Aluminum Squirt]

The best way to avoid all of this lay up controversy is to buy aluminum. Then all it takes is a big hammer to fix or worst case a little welding :) -Aluminum Squirt

[old rigger]

squirtcha,
You're not alone in checking the bottom this way. Done it many times like you described before mounting somethning to the bottom of someones boat. I would always use one of the piece's off my tip cleaner for my oxy welding kit. Drill a super small hole in the bottom and then check the thickness with that little rod. Worked like a charm. The few times I didn't go ahead and mount whatever it was I was mounting, mainly because of the thinness of the bottom, just fill that little hole with with marine tex and forget about it.

[bp]

A chopper gun on the other hand is an evil tool, designed by the devil (sorry Buck Smith, just kidding). The variances here can be extreme. When someone talented is using the gun, a nice lay-up can be the result. Like patio furniture, or resturant seats, like Hallett use to build, they still might, I don't know, but they knew how to use one of these monsters. Boats like Bayliner are all chopper gunned, ..... But they sold a ton of boats and no one seemed to care.
kind of what i was thinking. i agree with you regarding consistency between layups, when actually laying up the hull. for example, from what i've seen, the colonel is fairly consistent with his layup schedule unless someone specifically asks for something different. same with daytonas. there might be some slight discrepancys, but if the same people using very similar materials are laying up out of the same molds, i wouldn't expect to see significant differences. but, to be honest (and i'm sure they tried very hard), i just don't see how it would be possible to have the same level of consistency with the gun with so many variables.
it's really too bad that the materials available today weren't available 25-30 years ago, when more stuff was being built. it's very hard to make an honest comparison between designs when you are giving away 300-400lbs.

[bp]

heydan, sorry about swipin the thread... carry on. i thought you'd have it fixed by now anyways... :cool:

[old rigger]

for example, from what i've seen, the colonel is fairly consistent with his layup schedule unless someone specifically asks for something different......
If you're talking about Scotton, yes he's very picky about his lay-ups. He was like a mother hen when I was at Advantage and we were building his hulls. The guy knows his stuff better than anyone. If I had the cash and was in the market, I'd love to be able to have him build me a boat. Fastest boat I was ever in was one of his.
But to be honest almost everyone I ever worked for, except for my short stay at galaxie, was concerned about their lay-ups. Even Schuster back in the day would make daily walks through the rigging dept, pick up the various cut-outs and make sure they were to his liking. Granted they weren't built like a CP but few new boats are today. lol Schuster would raise holy hell with the laminators if things weren't right.
As far as giving up 3 or 400 pounds, I can understand that. Even though I'm not a racer and I like my boats on the heavy side for my own use because I think they ride much better, I know weight is the enemy for the racers. On the other hand, I saw where v-drive video just posted some of the old ads for Placecrafts, Rated X and Going Places. The ad showed where Dave Gionete had just ran a 158! When he was doing our interiors at Advantage he said the last runs he made in the boat before Billy Jr blew it over clicked the lights at 170. What are jets running today? (I really don't know because I don't follow that) This was back in the early 80s too, with our primitive hull building styles. lol
I went to school with Billy Jr., that was an amazing crash, and he's lucky to be alive.
By the way, do you know where Deer Canyon is? My mom lives in arroyo grande back in there.

[EXTREMEBOATS]

Lots of good input about how consitant boats are built.... From my own experience I build boats to order. I have always tried to keep the best records of each layup for future needs. Most of the time if I copy one i've done its real dam close. Like a 500lbs hydro to the next. If the same materials are used its going to be close. When a heavier hull is :argue: wanted its beefed up with the bulking material. Resin is always kepted as close to the desired ratio to fabric that will give the best over all performance and life. To much is britle and to little is soft and flexable. Now "choper guns" are a whole different thing. As said, a "GOOD" operator will make a good part. But the most common problem is there is not a constant uniform layer. A well experienced operator can do a fine job, but it will never compare to a true hand laid job. I sold my first chop gun after two repair jobs and a few parts. I just did'nt feel comfortable with the end result. Just my H2O...
Mike

[bp]

As far as giving up 3 or 400 pounds, I can understand that. Even though I'm not a racer and I like my boats on the heavy side for my own use because I think they ride much better, I know weight is the enemy for the racers. On the other hand, I saw where v-drive video just posted some of the old ads for Placecrafts, Rated X and Going Places. The ad showed where Dave Gionete had just ran a 158! When he was doing our interiors at Advantage he said the last runs he made in the boat before Billy Jr blew it over clicked the lights at 170. What are jets running today? (I really don't know because I don't follow that) This was back in the early 80s too, with our primitive hull building styles. lol
I went to school with Billy Jr., that was an amazing crash, and he's lucky to be alive.
By the way, do you know where Deer Canyon is? My mom lives in arroyo grande back in there.
yeah, deer canyon road is off corbett canyon, which is back off of 227, the shortcut to slo. real nice and quiet back in that area. i live between oak park and james in what we call "k-mart hights" :) she'll know the general location..
things done 20-25 years ago could be improved upon using materials and technology available today. that's not a knock on anyone's skill, ability, or what was done at the time. just an opinion. composites readily available today weren't so readily available then.
no one is racing fuel jets right now. as you mentioned, somebody "saw" 170 on one pass, and maybe someone else did too, but consistency is what wins races, and that's what racers are into these days. the current ihba record is 161/7.13, set in '95 by shannon stewart. the current sdba record is 157/7.06 set by randy fowkes in smokin n strokin (no date).

[old rigger]

yeah, deer canyon road is off corbett canyon, which is back off of 227, the shortcut to slo. real nice and quiet back in that area. i live between oak park and james in what we call "k-mart hights" :) she'll know the general location..
things done 20-25 years ago could be improved upon using materials and technology available today. that's not a knock on anyone's skill, ability, or what was done at the time. just an opinion. composites readily available today weren't so readily available then.
no one is racing fuel jets right now. as you mentioned, somebody "saw" 170 on one pass, and maybe someone else did too, but consistency is what wins races, and that's what racers are into these days. the current ihba record is 161/7.13, set in '95 by shannon stewart. the current sdba record is 157/7.06 set by randy fowkes in smokin n strokin (no date).
yep, arroyo grande is really nice. when my mom bought her property about 10 years ago or so, we started to go there now and then and check things out, before she built her house. We should have bought something at that time in that canyon, now it's way outa our reach. lol. When we go visit, I find it harder and harder to leave there and come home to LB.
I didn't take what you said as a knock at all. Building materials, engines, hardware, it's all better than 25 years ago.
As far as Rated X running that fast it happened more than once and they did it at different tracks. I don't remember, hell I probably never even knew, exactly what the controversy over it all was, but Dave was very pissed at the time it all went down. His records were retired because the class was dying, no one else was running those speeds (I'm trying to remember what he was telling me, and it's been a loooong time, so what I'm saying is by no means gospel) He was mad because it was like he never did what he did when they did that. He was very bitter towards the whole race deal. I'm sure he's still around, he had a big shop out in Corona back then, be kinda cool to get the straight scoop. I heard that Bill Henderson Sr. has passed away, I don't know if that was a rumor or not.
Last time I saw Rated X run was with Jr. driving, it was a rush to see someone run that fast in a jet. This was a few months before the blow over. Big ol' hemi, junkyard cast iron heads and a BIG tip of the can. lol. He'd buy heads out of the junk yards, lap the valves and install new springs and run 'em. If they lasted the meet, he was happy.
I would certainly be interesting to talk to some others that raced back then and get their view point on thoses speeds too.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Not dogging you timm, I just havent seen you at any races. I have been to firebird for the last 6 years and havent seen you run buddy. You talk about all the "hi tech" equipment that you use but dont see you run. Why is that?? I know everyone has thier own ways of doing stuff to perform better. You always boast about what you have and had ran. If its so"top secret" then why dont we see your slips? Just curious, not picking a fight....
396

[old rigger]

Now "choper guns" are a whole different thing. As said, a "GOOD" operator will make a good part. But the most common problem is there is not a constant uniform layer. A well experienced operator can do a fine job, but it will never compare to a true hand laid job. I sold my first chop gun after two repair jobs and a few parts. I just did'nt feel comfortable with the end result. Just my H2O...
Mike
I'd be extremely surprised to see a chopper gun in your shop. You guys are doing work on the other end of the boat building arc. No place there for one of those. Unless of course you're building parts on the side like spas or bench's and stuff like that.
Gotta admit though, they are kinda fun to opperate :)
True story, at Galaxie I saw them chop the molds, install all the wood, pull the parts, assemble them and push the boat into the rigging dept is less than 1 1/2 hours. The fumes that thing was giving off was really bad and I felt sorry for the rigger who was in there cutting holes. Focking thing was still hot to the touch. They delivered the boat that night to the happy customer.

[GUGS102]

I've read the thread and got a few laughs. There is no question some are lighter than others, I tend to like the heavy stuff. I currently have a Hallet(spud) with full 2x6 stringers, things a tank, however, Timm built me a BBC and with the entire boat in the water (in front of the dash) she's pulling low 70's with logs and a single carb. We've got thru transom headers going on, shoe, plate and pump set up to come. We'll see how she runs. I'll never be the fastest, my pocket book won't allow that. But I always learn from others and look for easy set up tips from the fast guys.
Old Rigger, I just curious on how the lay up schedule and mat direction etc. was back in the day versus the current set up. As BP mentioned the composite technology has come a long way. We (family members) work with composites in aircraft and have incorporated new technology into the old floaters whenever possible. This also leads to your and others suggestion to Squirtcha on how or if he should repair the damage. On composite repairs in aircraft, we typically refrence the lay up chart and then make sure and layer the material and make sure the direction and type of weave is consistent with the original mfg. Is the best way for this (Dan's repair) to just lay up the material with with a unidirectional pattern or should he stagger the layers. I'm not an expert and don't pretend to be, just curious in case I ever run into a similar situation with my "'Spud"
396 - As far as what Timm has run or is currently running, I'll let him jump in, I think the reason you don't see him as much is because, customers like me won't let him out of his shop. I've spent many years in and around HP motors, mostly non marine. I've been impressed by Timm and his knowledge specific to marine and jet applications. Just my .02 which is not worth that much if you ask my wife :)
Carry on, sorry for all the letters.

[Sanger Jet]

I checked the thickness of the bottom of my boat last summer by flying into some rocks :messedup: Flipped it Repaired it Painted it and was back in action in about a month. You can do it yourself Dan!!!

[TIMINATOR]

"Racing" bores the hell out of me. To sit for hours to make a pass isn't my deal. I did it from my 16th b'day until about 9 yrs. ago.(I'm 53 now). The lakes now are "The Golden Era of Street Racing". No smog checks,no speed limits,and no noise complaints, so-far. I can go out, cruise, swim, have lunch, race a little, listen to the CD player, swap stories,and hang out without anyone having me on a time schedule. My time is too valuble to me to waste waiting for a run, I did that for far too long. I am a skydiver too, I like the freedom and the rush. At Eloy where I do most of my jumping, a load leaves every 10 minutes or so. Again, no waiting and no one telling me to replace my harnesses, and other safety and driveline equipment every 2 years like the NHRA. My container is 11 yrs.old, and main chute is 6 yrs.old, they save my life every time I use them. The harness system is constructed of 1 3/4" webbing, the NHRA stuff 3", all the shoulder harness does is in the event of a crash is keep you from rattling around in the cage, again, mine saves my life every time I put it on. In case you all are thinking that my tune would change if I ever had a wreck, again you are wrong. I crashed my 4th dragster (of 6) on a checkout pass with the new trans, it locked up(and I didn't build it either), a 1000 ft easy pass that included one "endo" and 5 barrel rolls, it stopped just past the finish line and in the same lane I started in. It still ran 8.70 at 160+. In case anyone wonders, the crash occured 2 months before the NHRA changed the belt width and 2 year "throwaway"rule and added the wrist restraint deal too. I walked away with bumps and bruises only and that was with 5 year old belts 2" wide. The 21 Daytona ran 113 on radar,(regular gas,single 4bbl,thru-transom exhaust), and the current 25 Daytona runs in the high 120s with the blown,intercooled 565. I have just changed cams, prop, and pulleys. The 16 nozzle NOS kit will be on probably this weekend too. I can run it flat out whenever I want,and don't have to wait for anyone. You (396)want to race a couple of times a year, go for it. I was out last Sunday(Havasu), and the Saturday and Sunday before(Pleasant),I'll be out this Saturday (Pleasant again)too. I get more hi-speed seat time in a day than I did dragracing in a year. TIMINATOR

[Rondane]

The 21 Daytona ran 113 on radar,(regular gas,single 4bbl,thru-transom exhaust), and the current 25 Daytona runs in the high 120s with the blown,intercooled 565. I have just changed cams, prop, and pulleys. The 16 nozzle NOS kit will be on probably this weekend too. I can run it flat out whenever I want,and don't have to wait for anyone. You (396)want to race a couple of times a year, go for it. I was out last Sunday(Havasu), and the Saturday and Sunday before(Pleasant),I'll be out this Saturday (Pleasant again)too. I get more hi-speed seat time in a day than I did dragracing in a year. TIMINATOR
Well said timinator....looks like it's time for 396 to put his foot in his mouth. For what reason he has a problem with you? The sonic tester is a little much but to each his own right? Looks like your on top of your game.

[steve d]

I'd be extremely surprised to see a chopper gun in your shop. You guys are doing work on the other end of the boat building arc. No place there for one of those. Unless of course you're building parts on the side like spas or bench's and stuff like that.
Gotta admit though, they are kinda fun to opperate :)
True story, at Galaxie I saw them chop the molds, install all the wood, pull the parts, assemble them and push the boat into the rigging dept is less than 1 1/2 hours. The fumes that thing was giving off was really bad and I felt sorry for the rigger who was in there cutting holes. Focking thing was still hot to the touch. They delivered the boat that night to the happy customer.
Great story Rich---------Keep'em comin........Steve

[Some Kind Of Monster]

Hey Michael,
On one of my boatless trips to the lake Timinator gave me a ride in his blown eliminator. It was one of the nicest riding boats I have ever been on, not to mention it was very fast, and was incredibly well built. The attention to detail in his ride was awesome. Thanks again for that ride last New Years Tim!
Sorry about the thread hijack Dan.
At least you have a good idea of what you are doing since you have already blueprinted that hull. I'm sure you can fix the damage and make it look like new!

[TIMINATOR]

Local Phoenix guys! Anybody going out New Years Day? Pleasant? Monster, ya can have another ride in the improved Timinator 25 Daytona! Bigger cam,more boost,bigger prop,bigger porting on the heads,tonneau cover for the front area,more watts for the C.D.changer(2000 now), NITROUS TOO!
396; ya can bag on my equipment all you want. I run a successful High-Perf. business, and have for many years, the equipment is top notch, and I own a lot of specialty equipment that most shops don't have. We do much work for other shops in AZ.,we are the principal machine shop for several specialty internet companies too, they act like they are going to do the work and farm it out to us, they then mark up the price and most of you never know who actually did the job. Keep in mind when you go to your favorite pump guy that calls himself an engine builder, where is his engine machining equipment? I own a full service engine and general machine shop, AND do all of the pump work, AND outdrive work, AND fiberglass work, AND specialty welding. At any given time 20% to 30% of the machinework in here was poorly performed elsewhere and ended up here to be redone correctly. I am proud of the quality work we do. I don't own this equipment to impress anyone, I own it because it is what is needed to do a quality job.
Dan, I am in the midst of compiling data on weights of various hull/engine combos, if you wish, I would be happy to weigh your rig and figure C.G.too, for FREE! (I normally charge for that). Back to that potato-chip/spud thing..... TIMINATOR

[bp]

OR, i understand the benefit of a heavier boat. we weighed my swtd 3 years ago, 700+lbs with only the intake in it. every thing else was removed. people tell me "this one's light", or that's light" but they haven't weighed them stripped. what i can tell, is that once you get above the parquet floor in mine, it was choppered, especially the cap seam, and around the pod. don't know about under the deck, but the nose is very heavy empty. now, when i run in san diego, or marble falls with a big cross wind and whitecaps, i'm not too worried about anything; just hangin on, and bring it on. but, there are others 2-250lbs less, that can easily run through the same stuff. so i wonder, how heavy is more than necessary? i would imagine that 30-35 years ago, strength was an equivalent of weight; i.e., if you really wanted it strong with lots of layers, it was gonna be heavy. my comment about modern materials; they can be ultra strong today without excessive weight, so how heavy is heavy enough? of course, other factors are important.
not talking potato chip crack-apart here, talking strong, but lighter...
just thoughts... :cool:

[Nucking futs]

what i can tell, is that once you get above the parquet floor in mine, it was choppered, especially the cap seam, and around the pod. don't know about under the deck, but the nose is very heavy empty.
The only way it would of been choppered was for the owner to have it done himself. SW never owned a chopper gun.
I agree that a lighter version of the SWTD and P/C would be strong contenders in todays racing. I would love a C/F kevlar SWTD, or a place craft.

[bp]

well, we've kinda chatted about this a time or two. you should know how i feel about the boat i have; it ain't goin nowhere :cool: ...
but, i didn't chopper it although i've only owned it since '96. i know the names of the previous owners, but have never been able to find them. but the point really was, this is a very heavy boat, considering what it competes against, either river wise or track wise. materials available today, in addition to c/v and kevlar, can be used to build an exceptionally strong boat without the weight. the question is more along the lines of how much weight is enough.
btw, i have no use for a placecraft. for me, it's swtd. give up your fuel talk; put a pc next to me, same hull weight and same hp, and let's see what happens.

[TIMINATOR]

Talk about evolution!!!! Didn't this thread have something to do with Dan's boat coming apart? TIMINATOR

[Squirtcha?]

No biggy. I pretty much got the answers I was looking for back on page 1. It's brought about some interesting conversation and I'm enjoying learning more stuff, as always.
Thanks to those that have offered advice, assistance etcetra. The boat sits patiently in the garage waiting on my lazy ass to do something with it.

[bp]

No biggy. I pretty much got the answers I was looking for back on page 1. It's brought about some interesting conversation and I'm enjoying learning more stuff, as always.
Thanks to those that have offered advice, assistance etcetra. The boat sits patiently in the garage waiting on my lazy ass to do something with it.
dandandan... :rolleyes: i thot you fixt that thing a page and a half ago... c'mon man.. time ta get crackin!! :cool:

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Talk about evolution!!!! Didn't this thread have something to do with Dan's boat coming apart? TIMINATOR
What does potatoe chip have to do with this? just curious bud....

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Well said timinator....looks like it's time for 396 to put his foot in his mouth. For what reason he has a problem with you? The sonic tester is a little much but to each his own right? Looks like your on top of your game.
Put your foot in your own mouth bro. I was just curious to see what he is doing different than others that are running.I happent to own an 87 kachina boat and its solid! I have 2x6 stringers and it takes a good beating. I take pics at all the races just to see good hardware and get ideas. If someone asks what I did to my boat I would tell them. There is no secret here! Its about helping others. Fast boats are one thing but a good driver is another. A $hitty driver can drive a fast boat slower than its potential.........
In all, There is no problem with tim, I am just curious........

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

396; ya can bag on my equipment all you want. I run a successful High-Perf. business, and have for many years, the equipment is top notch, and I own a lot of specialty equipment that most shops don't have. We do much work for other shops in AZ.,we are the principal machine shop for several specialty internet companies too, they act like they are going to do the work and farm it out to us, they then mark up the price and most of you never know who actually did the job. Keep in mind when you go to your favorite pump guy that calls himself an engine builder, where is his engine machining equipment? TIMINATOR
Where did I bag on your equipment??? I am just curious to see what you do. I am learning and love new ideas. I have halped alot of local boater make thier boats run faster and never charged them. i do it because its a passion for me. As far as shops, I deal with bergeron marine. They do all of thier own stuff from polishing,rigging,outdrive,jets,ss boats,bottoms, and thier OWN machining(2 cnc's). Oh and did I mention that they have great customer service. The only thing that they dint do is thier own motor machining. They sent me to rpm engine developement and they kick ass. Everything that they told me was 100% true. Phil and his crew always have helped me 100%. They have also loaned me tools that were very exspensive to do my own work. Take it how you want becuase I didnt dogg you. I have spoken to you before on the phone and you told me that alot of pump builders dont know that much and thier "equipment is out dated". To me thats not right but I never passed judgement on you. If thats true then why are they building proven winning boats? Some people dogg duane @ hi-tech for some odd reason. personally Duane is a very great guy and very honest. He has answered alot of my questions on the phone and I havent spent a penny with him! you can ask him questions and he gives you straight up answers. Thats what I call customer service;)
Now back with our local braodcasting;);)