Big HP longevity [Archive]

78DiMarco

11-06-2002, 04:05 PM

I'm no engine builder but I have a freind that has a PF 532CI BBC that was built in 1996. It makes 850HP and this thing has been pretty much turnkey ever since he got it. He runs the blower at about 10 under and changes the oil when needed. This thing still runs perfect and looks perfect. I don't know how many hours it has but I would guess about 100 or so. Not bad if I do say.
I have a twin turbo I rebuilt a year and a half ago. It has about 700HP and time will tell how it lasts. The motor before the rebuild was about 20 year old.

BOFH

11-06-2002, 04:26 PM

It depends on how it was built. You can "build 750hp for $3000, and it may last a summer. Or you can spend $15,000 for 750, and it can last years.
If you want longevity, look at the way a NASCAR engine is built. It runs at WOT for 8 hounrs at a time, and usually lasts a full season. Build a NASCAR engine with less compression, a less aggressive cam, (and a few other changes) and you could have 750HP for 10 years. It will NOT be cheap...

Clown

11-06-2002, 04:38 PM

It really depends on how hard you run your shit.!
And how much on the cutting edge your tuneup is
I've had a motor that makes 780hp and three seasons
It has lasted. The Spring pressure went away this year The guides are starting to push a little oil.
"And I no that the Roller lifters are in need of Replacement. Just from exeperiance"
The Pistons Crank Rods Cam Block & Heads
Are off of a friends OFFshore boat , This stuff is from 1981-82 And still in good shape.
Does anyone remeber when Carl Foltz Was doin heads out of his garage? These are those heads.
There is evan an Old Kiekafer crank in that motor.
I know I didn't answer your question but I have found that most of the hard parts LAST Awhile with proper maintence. eek!

Clown

11-06-2002, 04:42 PM

BOFH:
It depends on how it was built. You can "build 750hp for $3000, and it may last a summer. Or you can spend $15,000 for 750, and it can last years.
If you want longevity, look at the way a NASCAR engine is built. It runs at WOT for 8 hounrs at a time, and usually lasts a full season. Build a NASCAR engine with less compression, a less aggressive cam, (and a few other changes) and you could have 750HP for 10 years. It will NOT be cheap...I agree $3,000.00 summit 750 hp that last's one season.
And $20,000.00 Sonny leonards 750 hp that last's years.

Unchained

11-06-2002, 04:59 PM

Clown:
It really depends on how hard you run your shit.!
And how much on the cutting edge your tuneup is
I know I didn't answer your question but I have found that most of the hard parts LAST Awhile with proper maintence. eek! I have to agree with that, I have run the blown 540 Arias for three seasons and it still runs great but I don't hold it wide open for longer than 10 seconds at a time. Most of the time I'm just cruising around at 3500 rpms or less.
I am big on checking cranking compression and all 8 cyl's are within 5 lbs. same as it was at original assembly.
I check plugs frequently and correct anything thats not right.
Mark

gnarley

11-06-2002, 05:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BOFH:
If you want longevity, look at the way a NASCAR engine is built. It runs at WOT for 8 hours at a time, and usually lasts a full season.
Well they don't last all season in cup cars & don't run 8 hours at a time, it's more like 3 to 5 hours of hard running & are torn down inspected & freshened after every long run or race. In the less competitive series engines may last a season with some help or a freshen or 2 during the season. The bottom line is they are built to take it with the best of EVERTHING & parts are inspected to the nth degree. Any pieces that aren't acceptable are shipped back to the mfg or sold to parts brokers who resell them to others. I might be going out on a limb here not knowing much about big time marine engine suppliers but I suspect most of the best marine engine builders shops pale in comparison to the best shops like Hendricks or Roush who lease & sell to other teams. The best marine shops probably don't do all the prep work of the cup shops as they can't pass the cost on to most users

canuck1

11-06-2002, 07:40 PM

Our race motors run about 12 hours before freshening with the valve springs being changed every 3 hours run time
cruising at 3500 is alot easier on parts than running wide open all the time
Run the best parts you can afford and check things over every time you have a chance to

LVjetboy

11-07-2002, 01:40 AM

Alrighty then. Guess my mild little 340 hp BBC w/NOS is good for 11 MORE YEARS :)
jer

Clown

11-07-2002, 04:25 AM

The best marine shops probably don't do all the prep work of the cup shops as they can't pass the cost on to most users
--------------------
Gnarley Charlie
1994 Fourwinns Liberator 201
Blown 454 King Cobra
I'm going to disagree with you I ORIGINALY Started playing with boats because of a job at a marina I had
Polishing boats after school the guy seen that I had an interist in wrenchin so he started letting me pull motors apart for the mechanic to be rebuilt
One thing led to another and 2 years later , I was his top engine builder. We were making at the time serious Horsepower 1100hp on 89 oct gas 6 pounds of boost. And he made me check everything over with a fine tooth comb. Some things that I would argue with him about saying this aint going to make a bit of differance. But it did.
Parts where chscked and rechecked everything was modified for the application.
He had a friend that now builds winston cup motors
give some advice on proper cam .
So I say that you just have to find a good well liked machinist to build your stuff or talk his ear off.
Thank you. :p

JetBoatRich

11-07-2002, 04:30 AM

Great thread, I was wondering the same thing. My engine is a few years ols and running strong. Built 454 with blower.

stix818

11-07-2002, 07:34 AM

I believe that if you run the dog shit out of the thing the motor won't last long at all. If you feel that you need to buzz it up to 8000 everytime you go out for a ride then you may find yourself tearing it down more often (just about any race motor). I currently run a 900HP 458CI aspirated chevy in my Cole. The thing runs F*CKEN great and I do things that need to be done every time it goes out on the water.
[ November 07, 2002, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Stix818 ]

gnarley

11-07-2002, 12:41 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clown:

One thing led to another and 2 years later , I was his top engine builder. We were making at the time serious Horsepower 1100hp on 89 oct gas 6 pounds of boost. And he made me check everything over with a fine tooth comb. Some things that I would argue with him about saying this aint going to make a bit of differance. But it did.
Parts where chscked and rechecked everything was modified for the application. :p
What metallurgical tests did you guys perform on any of your engines or parts? I'm not taking about visual inspections or looking at them with a fine tooth comb either, anyone can do that & most do but what sets apart the big boys from most other performance shops is they do extra testing to ensure parts don't fail & even then they still do sometimes :rolleyes:
It ain't that hard to make 1100 HP with a blower or turbo & mucho cubic inches if you want to but its another story to make 750+ HP naturally aspirated out of a 355 CID engine with a flat tappet cam & a single 4bbl carb thats restricted & make it live wink

stix818

11-07-2002, 01:10 PM

True Dat!!! I have the same opinion even though we run by Pro Stock rules. There's nothing better than a bad ass aspirated motor. I loved it when my old man would kick a blown boats ass at the races and I can't wait to do it next year myself!! :D

BOFH

11-07-2002, 01:23 PM

Everyone keeps talking about how you run it, vs. how you build it. I think how you run it makes MUCH less difference than how you build it. I used to race SCCA but it got old after a while... (OK, tires got expensive) My last rebuild was a lot of power, but built to last. An all out race engine detuned for the street. It was 6 times the cost of a frinds engine that made the same power in the same car. His lasted a year and a half. This was in 1989. It is still running. Every time I drive it, it spends a good bit of time wide open. The difference is that mine was built to run wide open, and last. His was not... The old addage "Speed costs... How fast you wanna go?" has an additional "Reliability costs more..."

paradigm shift

11-07-2002, 01:38 PM

Mercury 900SC and the new 1050SC motors do not come with the first rebuild at 50hrs for nothing. Very hard on valve train parts running that much power. I have seen 1000hp motor with 300hrs and only minor maintenance in my book. Valve springs checked and replaced as needed. Lifters well just like springs depends on the cam. Big HP is not cheap to build or maintain. I won't even get started on Winston cup motors but to say they are pretty well used up by the end of a race.

stix818

11-07-2002, 01:42 PM

BOFH I agree on what you are saying. My boat and my old man's are built for nothing but full throttle. Mine don't like to run under 4000 but I still believe that if you go out and run the DOGSH*T out it you are going to be spending a lot of time and money doing the neccessary up keep. Like you said "Speed costs... How fast you wanna go?" has an additional "Reliability costs more..."

gnarley

11-07-2002, 04:36 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by paradigm shift:
I won't even get started on Winston cup motors but to say they are pretty well used up by the end of a race.
paradigm shift, what you know about cup cars? Been around them at all or just a fan?

Clown

11-07-2002, 05:29 PM

gnarley:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clown:

One thing led to another and 2 years later , I was his top engine builder. We were making at the time serious Horsepower 1100hp on 89 oct gas 6 pounds of boost. And he made me check everything over with a fine tooth comb. Some things that I would argue with him about saying this aint going to make a bit of differance. But it did.
Parts where chscked and rechecked everything was modified for the application. :p
What metallurgical tests did you guys perform on any of your engines or parts? I'm not taking about visual inspections or looking at them with a fine tooth comb either, anyone can do that & most do but what sets apart the big boys from most other performance shops is they do extra testing to ensure parts don't fail & even then they still do sometimes :rolleyes:
It ain't that hard to make 1100 HP with a blower or turbo & mucho cubic inches if you want to but its another story to make 750+ HP naturally aspirated out of a 355 CID engine with a flat tappet cam & a single 4bbl carb that?s restricted & make it live wink Cryo Pal Cryo
Crank and rods Cryod Titanium valves
everything on the cutting edge!
Let me see you make 1100 HP on 89 OCTANE Pump gas!
With Only 6# of boost and remember this was in the late 80s! eek! OH almost forget if a 540 is MUCHO
cubic inch Than Never mind!
And yes Ihave built a 400 Small block with 14'olds heads that made that power of 750+ that your talkin about!
It sounds like you might be the man!
No need to jump all over my shit Pal!
Like I stated prior I WAS IN ****ING HIGH SCHOOL!
The guy that helped us out was """""" From
Pro motor N.C.
:confused:
[ November 07, 2002, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Clown ]

gnarley

11-07-2002, 10:55 PM

Clown, no need to get bent and curse me & I never jumped your Shit so don't get all riled up :rolleyes: I ain't the man & haven't been around any boat engine suppliers or builders to know what they do but I can only imagine they produce small numbers for sale & don't have the extensive machinery/equipment to support large numbers of engines, again I might be wrong.
There are a lot of smart guys here & lots that think they are & think they know what it takes to build reliable HP. I couldnt even build myself one, as the cost is prohibitively high. I have been around NASCAR (82-94) so I do have a little background on those & can speak from experience even though it was 8 years ago. I do know that Hendrick Motor Sports builds around 600 motors a year & when I was in it we got motors from them. I don't know if anyone can have the type of quality control that a major engine shop of that magnitude has so that is why I question the longevity & quality from anyone. I think that the going rate on a top shelf cup motor these days is about 50 grand for an outright purchase. Imagine what that would cost if it were a big block & blown? I bet it would be 65 to 75 grand. How much do Sterlings cost, I wonder? And do they have as good quality in their shop?
The bottom line is if you make big HP you better be able to maintain it & keep it fresh cause if it breaks it will cost a whole lot more to put it back together again and even then there is never any guarantee that it wont break, its kind of like gambling. DO ya feel lucky or should you have changed those springs???

LVjetboy

11-08-2002, 12:42 AM

BOFH, how much hp is that engine you've run since '89 and how often do you run it a season?
jer

Unchained

11-08-2002, 05:23 AM

When I talked to KZ (Risky Biz) at Red Bluff a couple years ago he said that the 1250hp pro stock engine they were running was very hard on valve train parts. Their cam was around .950 lift and they checked the valve springs every day. They also had 16:1 compression.
So I would say that a 1200hp NA engine would have a much shorter life than a 1200 hp turbo engine. The turbo engine would not be stressed all the time, Just when its on the boost. Also the turbo engine would not need near as much cam lift to achieve the hp.

stix818

11-08-2002, 09:30 AM

UNCHAINED, When we were running PGF 2 years back we were checking springs like you said every pass. If the intakes dropped below 360lbs on the seat we replaced them or tried to move them over to an exhaust that was tired. Like everyone is saying it's prevenative maintenance that helps longivity. I have to defend against smaller speed shops because my old man runs one. He specializes in marine engines and we may not have a dyno to test them but we have a river to run them on to verify that everything is straight before we turn the boat or motor over to the owner. He has an excellent reputation in his area for building reliable and hard running motors.

BOFH

11-08-2002, 09:48 AM

BOFH, how much hp is that engine you've run since '89 and how often do you run it a season?
It was a D Street Prep car, so it ran with Datsun B210's and the like. A Beetle rag top. Corse it would eat mustangs for breakfast on a short corse. :-) Around 250 - 300 HP air cooled. Not applicable here. :-)
Now it is a weekender. A saturday night mess with the youngsters with new F-body cars. I will drive it about 3 times a month... No airconditioning in Houston prevents more use.

twistedpair

11-08-2002, 10:06 AM

[/qb][/QUOTE]Cryo Pal Cryo
Crank and rods Cryod Titanium valves
everything on the cutting edge!
[/QB][/QUOTE]
I've been curious about cryo-hardening for marine apps. A friend of mine used to race Karts and he cryo'd damn near everything, even spark plugs. This was a few years ago, but it does'nt seem like I hear too much about it anymore. Are many builders freezing their stuff these days?

canuck1

11-08-2002, 03:42 PM

opps
[ November 08, 2002, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: canuck1 ]

canuck1

11-08-2002, 03:45 PM

QUOTE GNARLEY
What metallurgical tests did you guys perform on any of your engines or parts? I'm not taking about visual inspections or looking at them with a fine tooth comb either, anyone can do that & most do but what sets apart the big boys from most other performance shops is they do extra testing to ensure parts don't fail & even then they still do sometimes :rolleyes:
We wet mag crank and rods anytime we pull a motor apart and send heads off for complete work over pistons are replaced based on laps turned
Gnarley what team were you with?

gnarley

11-08-2002, 04:09 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by canuck1:

Gnarley what team were you with?
In 92 I was with the 29 car that was bought out that year by Gary Bechtel (Diamond Ridge Motorsports) it then became the cartoon network car in 93. I left in 92 after I had a major car accident. In 93-94 I helped a new Winston West team get going, helped build the cars, tested & left, not liking the chosen drivers abilities. In 96 Robin Pemberton offered me a spot at Penske So for the 97 season after Rusty won at Sears Point, I told him I'd think about it & come out in November if I wanted to get back into it. I decided not to and stayed out west, the rest is history & well behind me now.

Hotcrusader76

11-08-2002, 04:35 PM

Ok......come on guys. :D
Let's have a ***boat Engine building competition. I'll supply the carb/s and beer, and the first one to blow their motor, buys a round at the RoadRunner and buys the carbs I supplied.......any takers
Anyone....anyone.... :D
[ November 08, 2002, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

canuck1

11-08-2002, 04:52 PM

stix818

11-08-2002, 05:33 PM

I'm there either way. :D

Clown

11-09-2002, 10:06 AM

canuck1:
Hotcrusader76:
Ok......come on guys. :D
Let's have a ***boat Engine building competition. I'll supply the carb/s and beer, and the first one to blow their motor, buys a round at the RoadRunner and buys the carbs I supplied.......any takers
Anyone....anyone.... :D So if the motor doesn't blow the carbs are free and you buy the beer?I'LL run !
Will we be using dominators or 4150s
what will the restricitions be?
All stock parts!????
Count me in.

Schiada76

11-09-2002, 10:09 AM

Hotcrusader76:
Ok......come on guys. :D
Let's have a ***boat Engine building competition. I'll supply the carb/s and beer, and the first one to blow their motor, buys a round at the RoadRunner and buys the carbs I supplied.......any takers
Anyone....anyone.... :D I just picked up all my parts from the machinist yesterday. So I'm in!
What kind of carbs do I get? :D
Oh yeah and when are you bringing the beer over, I want to get started. :D :D
[ November 09, 2002, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: BradP ]

paradigm shift

11-09-2002, 10:32 AM

gnarley:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by paradigm shift:
I won't even get started on Winston cup motors but to say they are pretty well used up by the end of a race.
paradigm shift, what you know about cup cars? Been around them at all or just a fan?gnarly I can't touch the expierance you have so lets just say I am a gearhead and fan. wink

Bow Tie Omega

11-12-2002, 07:15 AM

Heck, you all are talking about 1250 hp and 16:1 Compression. I'm stoked with 500 hp and 9:1 Compression. Obviously I am out of my league here...Have fun...Joe

Hotcrusader76

11-12-2002, 03:43 PM

Sounds like we might have a contest brewing. :D
First Annual ***boat Blow-out!

Schiada76

11-12-2002, 05:26 PM

Hey hot76, I had to buy my own brew this weekend where were you?
I'm not done yet though send me a 12 of silvers.
And where's my new carbs?
They're for a 500 Chevy with an 871. :D

Hotcrusader76

11-12-2002, 05:45 PM

BradP:
Hey hot76, I had to buy my own brew this weekend where were you?
I'm not done yet though send me a 12 of silvers.
And where's my new carbs?
They're for a 500 Chevy with an 871. :D Yeah...ok....I sent them yesterday. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/party/drinka.gif Here is the tracking number
1z500^871-isRUNNING#WEBERS http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/xyxthumbs.gif

Schiada76

11-13-2002, 02:12 PM

LMAO!
Side draft Weber's look great on a huffer.
I think Slowpoke is going to force me to buy his Dominators off his Flattie when he goes injected anyway. Right 'Poke? :D
[ November 13, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: BradP ]

Clown

11-13-2002, 08:13 PM

Must Be A Cali Thing!!!!!!!!!! :o

Infomaniac

11-13-2002, 10:16 PM

I will soon be building a 10-71 blown 540 for a guy.
I'm In
[ November 13, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

Schiada76

11-14-2002, 09:05 AM

Test and tune on Parker Strip in January. :D
Full tilt in March/April after break in. eek!

slowpoke

11-14-2002, 09:06 AM

BradP You are correct. This duet of 1050 dominators are destined to sit atop your 871. You will need them.

77charger

11-17-2002, 09:18 PM

Stix818:
UNCHAINED, I have to defend against smaller speed shops because my old man runs one. He specializes in marine engines and we may not have a dyno to test them but we have a river to run them on to verify that everything is straight before we turn the boat or motor over to the owner. He has an excellent reputation in his area for building reliable and hard running motors.that is the best dyno you get the real deal not a print out.Its not a paper race but a real race when it matters most.

GasTurbine

11-21-2002, 06:50 AM

We currently have 950 hours on our stock 1350 hp plant, and still running great. And most of those hours were at WOT. :) :)
Lycomming Linear Longevity!!

GasTurbine

11-21-2002, 07:04 AM

twistedpair:
[/qb]Cryo Pal Cryo
Crank and rods Cryod Titanium valves
everything on the cutting edge!
[/b][/QUOTE]
I've been curious about cryo-hardening for marine apps. A friend of mine used to race Karts and he cryo'd damn near everything, even spark plugs. This was a few years ago, but it does'nt seem like I hear too much about it anymore. Are many builders freezing their stuff these days?[/QB][/QUOTE]
Hey Twisted!
My "day job" is a tel-tech too...glad to meet 'cha!
Do you work at Washington U? I work at The Ohio State University...home of the undefeated (12-0) Buckeyes!
Anyway, just wanted to say hey, and ask, what make is your ride...it looks good.
L8r...