Newbe Question

[Jack Black]

I'm sure this has been asked a million times, but I am toying with the Idea of getting an outboard (Stoker, Baker or something along those lines) and was wondering about the reliability of the engines out there. I've heard stories of outboards being very reliable with years of trouble-free use, then I've also heard about people dumping tons of money in to them because they keep blowing up. Is it an issue of abuse or lack of maintenance that is causing these to fail, certain brands more reliable than others or is it just luck of the draw? I am very familiar with flatty's, I/O's and tournament boats, but no experience with an O/B. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[dc96819]

I dumped a ton in mine reliability is good.Would be a different story if i did it my self

[vishus]

if you leave them stock and give them good gas and oil, watch your water pressure/temp, they live for a good long time. NOW if you hot rod them, run them hot, abuse them, then they die like anything else. parts are more than a car motor, and labor is high. shop for parts and do your own work to save $$$. check out www.screamandfly.com the discussions get a bit bitchy, but the parts and some of the advice are good...
IF you want to go FAST without doing much wrenching, go BLACK (Mercury), OMC is good, but not much performance stuff without alot of $$ and work. Yamaha is good if you leave it stock (popular with the fisherman), Suzuki "sucks" , too bad they can't build them like there bikes...
if your interested in going FAST, get the HP stuff, you can always mod it for more go. if you start with the basic motors, its harder to get speed, you can make them run fast, but it will take $$ and work...
sid

[Towndrunk]

Stock is good mod is bad. Same as any other type boat. You will get better economy with an outboard and most always more speed per horse power.

[You Te]

The use of nitrous will help you find the weak links on the motor.

[Tom Brown]

I think the people who are having reliability problems are the guys who are smarter than Mercury. If someone knows how to fix Mercury's bad designs, they probably know a whole bunch about how to fix their engine.
Keep it stock, treat it well, and it will run forever.
Oh yeah... Scream & Fly sucks.

[whiteworks]

http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108928&highlight=stoker this one should last quite a while. from my experiance you either pay up front and go have fun or pay as you go and spend the weekend running around fixing stuff. either way you pay. Ive been told that if you treat these engines well you could see a 1000 hours

[DAVEO]

I have 250 hour on my 2.5 merc and it runs great. My stoker will run aroung 75 to 80 and almost 90 on a good day. I have done nothing but tune the motor.

[Towndrunk]

Thats a lot of money for an OB. Especially a stoker. Heres a lot better deal and it's in Phx. I know this guy and he is ANAL about his stuff!
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107175

[Jack Black]

Thank's for all the info so far guys. It would end up staying bone stock. Need some fast, reliable transportation from Needles to Havasu and back. Takes too long in the wakeboard boat. When looking at used O/B's, what are some of the things I should look for in regards to the engine being abused? Thanks again for all the help!!!!

[Towndrunk]

Shouldn't look past that Hydrostream I linked to. Thats one fine quick boat.

[Tom Brown]

I think if I was looking for a Havasu <-> Needles boat, I'd try to find a 20' tunnel like an STV/Mirage/Rapid Craft/Lightning with a 260/280 on it. Of course, the engine would have to be all nicasil with Mahle pistons, not something someone has carved up.

[sorry dog]

I think if I was looking for a Havasu <-> Needles boat, I'd try to find a 20' tunnel like an STV/Mirage/Rapid Craft/Lightning with a 260/280 on it. Of course, the engine would have to be all nicasil with Mahle pistons, not something someone has carved up.
... and put extra effort in due diligence...especially if buying from screamandfly.
The phrase "Break in time only" is now a joke with some of my boating friends.

[Kim Hanson]

I'm sure this has been asked a million times, but I am toying with the Idea of getting an outboard (Stoker, Baker or something along those lines) and was wondering about the reliability of the engines out there. I've heard stories of outboards being very reliable with years of trouble-free use, then I've also heard about people dumping tons of money in to them because they keep blowing up. Is it an issue of abuse or lack of maintenance that is causing these to fail, certain brands more reliable than others or is it just luck of the draw? I am very familiar with flatty's, I/O's and tournament boats, but no experience with an O/B. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
I have a HST with pretty big power to the size of her, 340 HP @ the prop and I really like it when she airs out and she is a OMC. If I would just try to keep it below 6 grand she would last I think :D My last rebuild wasn't my fault either, a brother inlaw/outlaw sunk the nose cone in the sand and rock bar to keep it still and never told me and we hade a weiner roast went I got it back to shore :cry: motor was toast, $10,000 later faster and the way I think is if it can go fast, I go fast. I maybe hard on equipment but I keep care of my boats...Okay, except that v-drive that won't die :p .......This is mine, V8 baby :cool:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/72post-2-1089919194.jpg

[Kim Hanson]

I think if I was looking for a Havasu <-> Needles boat, I'd try to find a 20' tunnel like an STV/Mirage/Rapid Craft/Lightning with a 260/280 on it. Of course, the engine would have to be all nicasil with Mahle pistons, not something someone has carved up.
You want a Fhockarso :p , they make those somewhere deep to my heart :D :D isn't it Screaming ShitHouse.com or something like that :p ..........( . )( . ).................maybe Screaming Shit Boys.com, shit I know im close :D :D

[Kim Hanson]

... and put extra effort in due diligence...especially if buying from screamandfly.
The phrase "Break in time only" is now a joke with some of my boating friends.
I knew I didn't fit in over there when they told to Scream & Fock OFF :p ..........( . )( . ).........
The phrase "Break in time only" is now a joke with some of my boating friends.
They were talking about the Scream and Shit Boys :p right :D

[Jack Black]

That Hydrostream is very clean, just not what I'm looking for and a tunnel would be great, but is the insurance through the roof like it is with the big cats or is it cheaper because the ins. company is only seeing "200hp"? As of right now, I really like the Lavey craft, Baker and Stoker, but it will be another month before I can buy so I'm keeping an open mind. Thanks again for all the feedback, O/B's are the one type of boat I've always liked, but never had any experince with.

[BILLY.B]

Hey JB... I have Hallett 210 with 275 Verado for sale. 75mph with the right prop. Seating for 6. Holds 75 gallons of fuel for those long trips. And plenty of storage for 4 ice chests. Are you in??????. :rollside:

[Towndrunk]

Kim, you scare me sometimes. :p

[blender over]

That Hydrostream is very clean, just not what I'm looking for and a tunnel would be great, but is the insurance through the roof like it is with the big cats or is it cheaper because the ins. company is only seeing "200hp"? As of right now, I really like the Lavey craft, Baker and Stoker, but it will be another month before I can buy so I'm keeping an open mind. Thanks again for all the feedback, O/B's are the one type of boat I've always liked, but never had any experince with.
What about a 1998 liberator 21ft tunnel with a 225 pro max all stock with 2 props ans a nice stereo.
I got 1 for sale if interested!!! PM me 4 detials :)

[Jack Black]

Very Tempting Billy, but I think that engine cost more than my budget for another boat!!!!! Besides, how will you get to Topac?!?!?!? Blender, you have a PM.

[blender over]

Very Tempting Billy, but I think that engine cost more than my budget for another boat!!!!! Besides, how will you get to Topac?!?!?!? Blender, you have a PM.
Pm back at ya :)

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

If your going single, dont sweat the insurance to much, i pay about 700 a year. Its only when you get into the twins you need to cringe!

[Tom Brown]

What about a 1998 liberator 21ft tunnel with a 225 pro max all stock with 2 props ans a nice stereo.
Nice boat. :cool:
Is that a ProMax or SuperMag?

[blender over]

Nice boat. :cool:
Is that a ProMax or SuperMag?
It a super mag, same difference, when i say super mag most people have no idea what that is LOL :)
Thanks for the comp :rollside:

[Tom Brown]

I know it's the same engine using the same parts but the Mariner has a little less resale value than a Mercury. The brand is not as well known.
I assume that's why none of your pictures have a close up of the engine. I've noticed this before in other sales. The brand will be misrepresented until just before the actual sale at which time it will be stressed that it's, "really a Merc." ... but it's not a Merc, just as a Firebird is not a Camaro.
I'd own a Mariner without hesitation but I would be cautious of someone trying to represent one as a Mercury.
Sure... I know the resale is not thousands less... maybe only a few percent less... but is not a proper representation of the engine.

[blender over]

I know it's the same engine using the same parts but the Mariner has a little less resale value than a Mercury. The brand is not as well known.
I assume that's why none of your pictures have a close up of the engine. I've noticed this before in other sales. The brand will be misrepresented until just before the actual sale at which time it will be stressed that it's, "really a Merc." ... but it's not a Merc, just as a Firebird is not a Camaro.
I'd own a Mariner without hesitation but I would be cautious of someone trying to represent one as a Mercury.
Sure... I know the resale is not thousands less... maybe only a few percent less... but is not a proper representation of the engine.
Humm interesting :yuk:
Im not trying to misslead any one.
The reason it a marnier bucause the fella that owned it before me wanted the motor to match the boat. :rolleyes:
And it more like chevy and GMC
I doubt its worth any more or less considering its the exact same thing just different color :)
Oh here you go.

[Tom Brown]

I doubt its worth any more or less considering its the exact same thing just different color :)
I doubt you know the market.
Again... nothing wrong with Mariner. Just check your resale prices.

[blender over]

I doubt you know the market.
Again... nothing wrong with Mariner. Just check your resale prices.
I guess i should go paint my motor black!!!LOL
10-4 TB :rolleyes:

[Tom Brown]

Hey... I'm not arguing that it's a different engine. It's not. It's the same. It uses the same parts... it's just gray.
I'm going to paint my Merc gray (but not Mariner gray).
What's more, your boat looks to be in really sweet shape. I don't want to scare JB off. The boat looks great in the pictures.
I'm just saying that it's not really a Merc, nor a ProMax. It's a Mariner SuperMagnum.

[blender over]

Hey... I'm not arguing that it's a different engine. It's not. It's the same. It uses the same parts... it's just gray.
I'm going to paint my Merc gray (but not Mariner gray).
What's more, your boat looks to be in really sweet shape. I don't want to scare JB off. The boat looks great in the pictures.
I'm just saying that it's not really a Merc, nor a ProMax. It's a Mariner SuperMagnum.
Your right , same with calling a GMC a chevy. It is what it is :)
I just think it funny, if they were both the same color nobody could tell the difference. Even with the motor cover off!!
I know what its not ( a stoker with a evinrude) :yuk:
LOL

[Towndrunk]

Hey... I'm not arguing that it's a different engine. It's not. It's the same. It uses the same parts... it's just gray.
I'm going to paint my Merc gray (but not Mariner gray).
What's more, your boat looks to be in really sweet shape. I don't want to scare JB off. The boat looks great in the pictures.
I'm just saying that it's not really a Merc, nor a ProMax. It's a Mariner SuperMagnum.
Blender, isn't that boat a little under powered? Seems like all the 21's are sporting 300 pm's these days.
Damn Tom, dont you have a site to be working on? :p It won't let me in.
I have a Mariner cowling on my Mercury but it's niether one now. It's a Goodman, Ruck, Zimmerman, US Chrome, mercury, Rapair thingy motor. I would pay more for a merc only because I hate the ugly Mariner gray. :cry: So far

[Tom Brown]

Damn Tom, dont you have a site to be working on? :p It won't let me in.
You can't get in?
... so you haven't checked out the new porn section with 200 megs of fresh porn every day? It's the only thing anyone seems to care about with the new site.

[blender over]

Blender, isn't that boat a little under powered? Seems like all the 21's are sporting 300 pm's these days.
Damn Tom, dont you have a site to be working on? :p It won't let me in.
I have a Mariner cowling on my Mercury but it's niether one now. It's a Goodman, Ruck, Zimmerman, US Chrome, mercury, Rapair thingy motor. I would pay more for a merc only because I hate the ugly Mariner gray. :cry: So far
That depends, how fast do you want to go.]
I know a certan blue 21ft stoker with a 300rude that i can spank on :)
My boat does mid 80s gps by my self and mid to upper 70s with 4 peeps.
Oh and thats how i bought the boat. Its TURNKEY unlike some others peeps selling boats i know

[Kim Hanson]

That Hydrostream is very clean, just not what I'm looking for and a tunnel would be great, but is the insurance through the roof like it is with the big cats or is it cheaper because the ins. company is only seeing "200hp"? As of right now, I really like the Lavey craft, Baker and Stoker, but it will be another month before I can buy so I'm keeping an open mind. Thanks again for all the feedback, O/B's are the one type of boat I've always liked, but never had any experince with.
HST has the same bottom as the Stroker, Tunnel it is. You put a little 200 hp Merc on a 20' Stoker and you might as well leave it at the dock, unless it is going to be a total family boat. I would say under 60mph and thats it...........( . )( . ).......... :idea:

[Kim Hanson]

Kim, you scare me sometimes. :p
Now how is that TD ? :p ...........( . )( . ).............

[Kim Hanson]

It a super mag, same difference, when i say super mag most people have no idea what that is LOL :)
Thanks for the comp :rollside:
I do tooo, it's a super maga biatch :p ...........( . )( . )........driven by Bend her Over :D

[Kim Hanson]

Your right , same with calling a GMC a chevy. It is what it is :)
I just think it funny, if they were both the same color nobody could tell the difference. Even with the motor cover off!!
I know what its not ( a stoker with a evinrude) :yuk:
LOL
I have a HST with a RUDE and I know I can smoke that boat of yours right now...........( . )( . )..........BBSP in October :cool:

[Kim Hanson]

That depends, how fast do you want to go.]
I know a certan blue 21ft stoker with a 300rude that i can spank on :)
My boat does mid 80s gps by my self and mid to upper 70s with 4 peeps.
Oh and thats how i bought the boat. Its TURNKEY unlike some others peeps selling boats i know
I have the bitch to set you straight, 110mph myself in the boat, 2 people 106mph, 4 people 96mph..all GPS'ed..........( . )( . )..........Rude is RUDE !
This is still breaking in stage, hit 7000 out of the hole but not on plane.......... :p

[blender over]

I do tooo, it's a super maga biatch :p ...........( . )( . )........driven by Bend her Over :D
Are you drunk?

[blender over]

I have the bitch to set you straight, 110mph myself in the boat, 2 people 106mph, 4 people 96mph..all GPS'ed..........( . )( . )..........Rude is RUDE !
This is still breaking in stage, hit 7000 out of the hole but not on plane.......... :p
Im sooooooo proud of you Kim, to bad you boat is ugly :boxed:

[Kim Hanson]

Im sooooooo proud of you Kim, to bad you boat is ugly :boxed:
That's funny, the guy from " Extreme Boats " got me to send him pictures of my boat for his magazine. It was in it also..........( . )( . )......Drunk naaaaaaaa, slight buzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........ya! :p

[You Te]

I doubt you know the market.
Again... nothing wrong with Mariner. Just check your resale prices.
I don't know about the market but I sure like the backside shot, and the motor looks good also. :boxed: :boxed:

[You Te]

I know a certan blue 21ft stoker with a 300rude that i can spank on :)
That's no big deal, Stokers get spanked all the time. :cry: :cry:

[DAVEO]

Here is a couple pics of my stoker, Say what you will but I love my stoker.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2614orwood.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2614100_0960a.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/502/2614IMG_0619.JPG

[blender over]

Looks like your moving in the first pic.
Here is my buddies stoker, nice boat, we have alot of fun egg beating :crossx:

[DAVEO]

Thats a cool pic. yeah the first pic I was running around 80

[blender over]

Thats a cool pic. yeah the first pic I was running around 80
Is that a 20ft stoker with a 2.5?

[DAVEO]

Yes it is. 1996 2.5 260 carbed spinning a 28 et.

[blender over]

Yes it is. 1996 2.5 260 carbed spinning a 28 et.
Nice.
I always give my buddie shit with his 21ft 300rude.
Evinrude motor cowlings are just soooo big and ugly, looks like i can fit 2 of my 2.5 inside his cowling. :)
Not often i see stokers with mercs, they should do it more!!

[DAVEO]

Ive heard that mercs are more reliable than evos. but this is the first ob ive owned. Would love to get an 280 efi powerhead that sould run me around 100. At least that is what Ive been told.

[Towndrunk]

Yes it is. 1996 2.5 260 carbed spinning a 28 et.
Ummm, Mercury never made a carbed 260. The carbed 2.5 hipo is a 245hp motor.

[Jack Black]

Thanks again for all the input guys, I really appreciate it. The last time I drove a Stoker I remember having to hold on for dear life to the wheel to keep it going straight once I trimmed up the motor, is this something that is not as noticeable on "hydraulic" steering, or is it the same with all the o/b's??

[DAVEO]

Ummm, Mercury never made a carbed 260. The carbed 2.5 hipo is a 245hp motor.
That is what ive been told it was. 270hp from the builder. Ive never had it dinoed though so who really knows what it is.

[DAVEO]

Thanks again for all the input guys, I really appreciate it. The last time I drove a Stoker I remember having to hold on for dear life to the wheel to keep it going straight once I trimmed up the motor, is this something that is not as noticeable on "hydraulic" steering, or is it the same with all the o/b's??
must go hydraulic no prop torque.

[yomama]

Here is a couple pics of my stoker, Say what you will but I love my stoker.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2614orwood.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2614100_0960a.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/502/2614IMG_0619.JPG
DAVEO, Cool boat....great in blue !!!
I give a ratz-azz what these guys say about Stokers.... :D I love mine too. Simple classic style. My 2.5 is just back together and I'm just about ready to hit the water. It's been a long winter.... Get out to Berryessa often?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/523/3190IMG_1003a.jpg

[DAVEO]

DAVEO, Cool boat....great in blue !!!
I give a ratz-azz what these guys say about Stokers.... :D I love mine too. Simple classic style. My 2.5 is just back together and I'm just about ready to hit the water. It's been a long winter.... Get out to Berryessa often?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/523/3190IMG_1003a.jpg
We used to Its getting very dangerous. Lots of people that dont know what they are doing. I will usually take the deck boat there. run the delta more.

[Towndrunk]

I hope thats somebodys kid in that boat cause if thats you ya gotta quit shitting yella before your opinion counts!
:cool:

[yomama]

We used to Its getting very dangerous. Lots of people that dont know what they are doing. I will usually take the deck boat there. run the delta more.
It does get crazy there...........specially under the bridge on weekends....I'm too old for all that headbangin' crap....sneaking off on weekdays works well.

[DAVEO]

It does get crazy there...........specially under the bridge on weekends....I'm too old for all that headbangin' crap....sneaking off on weekdays works well.
I dont live close enough to do that but the delta is easy for me. Im in the water from storage in about 5 min.

[yomama]

I hope thats somebodys kid in that boat cause if thats you ya gotta quit shitting yella before your opinion counts!
:cool:
That's the g/f's son....up at Ice House Reservoir...couldn't get him outa the boat.........hey, my opinion rarely counts....why should it be any different here? :rolleyes:

[Towndrunk]

Sounds like me. Mine don't count much either. :p

[yomama]

I dont live close enough to do that but the delta is easy for me. Im in the water from storage in about 5 min.
The beater's in my garage....it's about and hour to the lake and 35-40 mins to the delta....that storage deal sounds like the way to go, but I'm always tinkering with something or other on it.
I need to call it done.......put it into storage near a lake......and let the g/f park her Acura in the garage..................NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil:

[DAVEO]

The beater's in my garage....it's about and hour to the lake and 35-40 mins to the delta....that storage deal sounds like the way to go, but I'm always tinkering with something or other on it.
I need to call it done.......put it into storage near a lake......and let the g/f park her Acura in the garage..................NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil:
I would keep it in my garage but my driveway is short and steep. My storage is in orwood/brentwood. Its easy for me my best friend lives near there and Im there alot. Ill be there tomarrow tinkering.

[DAVEO]

you should come out for our lunch runs or hooky days they are a blast and all is welcome.

[yomama]

you should come out for our lunch runs or hooky days they are a blast and all is welcome.
I'm just a couple of break-in hours away from taking you up on your offer..
thanks....!!!

[DAVEO]

Did someone get a new powerhead
:cool:

[yomama]

Naaaaaaa....rebuild.....re-nic on the block, lightening, balancing rods and pistons.....threw in a 1" spacer for the hell of it.... I finally got all the parts and pieces a couple of weeks ago. I locked myself in the garage last weekend and got it all assembled. Pyros are due in tomorrow, so that should be it......the wallet says it's done :frown:

[You Te]

I go poo poo on Stokers with my boat.

[yomama]

I go poo poo on Stokers with my boat.
blah...blah...blah.....you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.....

[You Te]

My boat even looks better than a Stoker out of the water and I'm sure it's even quicker just sitting on the trailer.

[You Te]

blah...blah...blah.....you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny.....
Yes that's true, but ugly and dressing funny is of little importance since I'm sporting 9-1/4" of manhood.

[yomama]

My boat even looks better than a Stoker out of the water and I'm sure it's even quicker just sitting on the trailer.
That's it buster......those are fighten words.....trailer races it is :argue:
Bike racks...3:00 !!!!!!

[yomama]

Yes that's true, but ugly and dressing funny is of little importance since I'm sporting 9-1/4" of manhood.
And drivin' a "hot pink" boat......righttttttttttttttttttt

[You Te]

And drivin' a "hot pink" boat......righttttttttttttttttttt
"hot pink" well, I do look pretty in pink.

[Towndrunk]

"hot pink" well, I do look pretty in pink.
You still have that hot pink tutu? Damndude, you look hot in that!! :p

[You Te]

You still have that hot pink tutu? Damndude, you look hot in that!! :p
Ah yes the ballet.

[Kim Hanson]

Ah yes the ballet.
Do you have all the colors now or what ?..........( . )( . ).......
:)

[You Te]

Do you have all the colors now or what ?..........( . )( . ).......
:)
Of course I do.

[Kim Hanson]

Of course I do.
Okay, now have you ever got to try the shit out on someone?........( . )( . ).........
:)

[yomama]

Ok......I hate to interupt this tea party....but I've got a major problem...
powerhead hooked up, lower unit stabbed on, I realized I hadn't torqued
the lower mount bolts...(standard non-offshore housing)....one of the biatches stripped.....didn't make it to 120ft lbs.....I cut the nut off hoping
the bolt might be ok....NOT :mad:
The big question, do I attempt to grind the bolt head off, and replace the bolt
and nut in the reverse order, or do I have to pull the powerhead off and start all over? CRAPPOOLLLLAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[You Te]

Any photos?

[You Te]

Okay, now have you ever got to try the shit out on someone?........( . )( . ).........
:)
I'm a dancer Kim, I dance circles around people and sometimes I dance on their head.

[Kim Hanson]

I'm a dancer Kim, I dance circles around people and sometimes I dance on their head.
I will take that as a no then
:p ...........( . )( . )............

[Towndrunk]

Ok......I hate to interupt this tea party....but I've got a major problem...
powerhead hooked up, lower unit stabbed on, I realized I hadn't torqued
the lower mount bolts...(standard non-offshore housing)....one of the biatches stripped.....didn't make it to 120ft lbs.....I cut the nut off hoping
the bolt might be ok....NOT :mad:
The big question, do I attempt to grind the bolt head off, and replace the bolt
and nut in the reverse order, or do I have to pull the powerhead off and start all over? CRAPPOOLLLLAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cut the head off and install it that way. Wont hurt a thing.
Do you wear a tutu also? :D :D

[yomama]

Cut the head off and install it that way. Wont hurt a thing.
Good answer......
Do you wear a tutu also? :D :D
nope....worked through those issues :hammerhea

[Towndrunk]

nope....worked through those issues :hammerhea
Thats okay we'll still help you. I actually turn those around when I change one so that it gives me easy access in case I need to pull it again for some other problem.

[yomama]

I actually turn those around when I change one so that it gives me easy access in case I need to pull it again for some other problem.
Just ordered bolts and nuts.....bolts shipping from new Jersey (are any of those parts stored locally?.....seems like never) I'll re-install reversed for sure!!
Added 1/16" dia. thermocouples this weekend. Used mega-$$$$ rifle-drilled bolts w/compression fittings........I can't see those thermocouples lasting more that a few hours...what kills them first, vibration or exhaust pulses?

[Towndrunk]

I don't know, I use the heavier ones. I would imagine the exhaust would kill them fairly fast.