Hilborn Injection Problems

[FlatRat]

O.k.,
first off we a .30 over 10:01 BBC,990's,comp .595 solid flat tappet.I finished putting a Hilborn stack Injection on.I called Hilborn to get a baseline set-up.They say with my size O pump (finally figured out why it wasn't pumping any fuel to the barrel valve...wrong rotation,hello) to run a 0.16 spring and 0.87 shim with a 105 pill in the primary and a 0.33 spring and no shim on the secondary.Now with all that said when I try and crank it up,it wants to fire but pisses fuel out the airbleeds,floods.Today I put in a 120 pill and same thing.Wrong spool?It's all new to me!I'm lost. :cry: If I get this thing going there maybe an outside chance of showing up at Burley.Any help would be...Dyno-mite!

[Morg]

Any idea where your barrel valve is at?
I am new to injectors but I can offer this.
From experience :) , make sure all of your butterflys are closed. Remove the stacks & use a very thin feeller guage to be sure all are closed. You can open up, but can't close if some are hung open.
I would then recomend using a leak tester to set you barrel valve. Block your secondary & connect to the main supply to the barrel valve. My crowers on alky are are 27%, probably wan't less for gas, say around 23%.
Double check the obvious stuff. (spark, timing, firing order)
Give her a squirt with a bottle & she should fire.
If not, I would look at the spool orientation, but the leak should tell if something is not right.

[Fiat48]

Well done, Morg. You win a cookie.
I can see it all now. "Morg's Fuel Injection".

[Moneypitt]

O.k.,
first off we a .30 over 10:01 BBC,990's,comp .595 solid flat tappet.I finished putting a Hilborn stack Injection on.I called Hilborn to get a baseline set-up.They say with my size O pump (finally figured out why it wasn't pumping any fuel to the barrel valve...wrong rotation,hello) to run a 0.16 spring and 0.87 shim with a 105 pill in the primary and a 0.33 spring and no shim on the secondary.Now with all that said when I try and crank it up,it wants to fire but pisses fuel out the airbleeds,floods.Today I put in a 120 pill and same thing.Wrong spool?It's all new to me!I'm lost. :cry: If I get this thing going there maybe an outside chance of showing up at Burley.Any help would be...Dyno-mite!
Something is wrong here. I'm trying to figure out your plumbing, and it seems "backward".......What are you calling primary and secondary? Lets try this, low speed, light spring,(idle about 7 lbs to open poppet) no pill. High speed, "shimmed spring" with "main" pill. Your numbers are a little confusing. Is the 0.87 shim actually .087, and the springs actually .016 and .033? Surely the "shim" isn't near 7/8ths of an inch! From my experience, the idle has to relief around 7lbs, which I think would be the .016 spring. Then the .033 spring is shimmed up until a given "high speed" pressure rating allowing the "pill" to be the controling factor of volume, and the "shim" controls the pressure when the pump is pushing 40+ lbs. Again, your numbers and description are somewhat confusing to "me"......But I know you gotta bypass at a low pressure to prevent idle flooding. Help me here Bob, there's just something not right with what he is saying. One more question, 2 or 3 by passes?..........Ray

[Fiat48]

I think we need a picture to really tell how it is plumbed.
But the main jet can.....should have a light spring...weak little sucker...just a few lbs. That spring is nothing more than to keep that bypass closed till the motor fires and then you are bypassing the jet size fuel flow(105 or 120 in this case) back to the tank. Should take just a few lbs to blow that off.
I was quite sure he was leaving out zeros on the spring numbers...just took it for granted.
But...what Morg said...regardless she should run on the bottle. Sounds like he really hasn't lit it off yet. Coudl have other problems..other things not right.
Now secondary....that is where we get in trouble around here. Crower uses a secondary....(and I am not talking high speed) but I am not sure Hilborn does...as a seperate circuit.
Now there is names and there is names...but I always called:
Main jet can (this is the light spring...the main bypass and a pill is in there.)
This is the main player in the system. The size of the main jet determines how much fuel goes back to the tank. The rest goes into the motor (basically).
Secondary can (This is a line off the barrell valve...to this jet can...and it generally has no pill....but many times a SLIGHTLY stronger spring and possibly a shim). This can only sees fuel up to 1/4 throttle and then it is blocked off by the barrell valve spool and is not a player after that. It is to lean part throttle...to send fuel back to the tank.
We get in trouble here a lot because some guys think and refer to this as what the high speed does.
High Speed can: This baby has a heavy spring in it...and will or will not have a pill or a shim in it depending on application....and opens at 45Lbs of fuel pressure or more....used to lean the top end...where the engine has less time to fill the cylinders and needs less fuel. Where the term "fuel curve is derived.
And barell valve setting:
Injectors dont have accelerator pumps...so extra fuel must be put into the motor to cover up quick throttle opening. So it is more of an idle mixture/accelerator pump combo setting.
But..she isn't even really running yet..so Morgs list should be checked.
And you and Gofast are better on these spring diameters as I always used a pressure tester to determine where the jet cans opened.

[Moneypitt]

With our crowers, the light spring just has a poppet, no pill. The heavy spring has the pill and is shimmed up to a given pressure to keep the fuel "spraying" while dumping the rest back to the tank. I call this one the main, or sometimes refered to as the "high speed" although its actually high pressure. When Gene Adams last had our system, he eliminated the barell valve bypass, saying we didn't need it. And we haven't. The pill #s, are they different for hilborn? Because our base line pill is around .150 @ 45lbs, with the .033 (I think. I've got the flow sheets out in the truck, I can double check) and shimmed around .200. It seems to me, he isn't bypassing near enough at idle with the .016 spring shimmed, even @.087.....I PMd him a way to make a set up using air to establish what pressure the poppets are coming off their seats.........Ray

[Fiat48]

With our crowers, the light spring just has a poppet, no pill. The heavy spring has the pill and is shimmed up to a given pressure to keep the fuel "spraying" while dumping the rest back to the tank. I call this one the main, or sometimes refered to as the "high speed" although its actually high pressure. When Gene Adams last had our system, he eliminated the barell valve bypass, saying we didn't need it. And we haven't. The pill #s, are they different for hilborn? Because our base line pill is around .150 @ 45lbs, with the .033 (I think. I've got the flow sheets out in the truck, I can double check) and shimmed around .200. It seems to me, he isn't bypassing near enough at idle with the .016 spring shimmed, even @.087.....I PMd him a way to make a set up using air to establish what pressure the poppets are coming off their seats.........Ray
Many ways to do it just like building engines. So Gene has done away with the "secondary"...the part throttle bypass...because you dont need it. O.k. I get that.
Hes running a little more low end pressure...and doing this by a heavier spring...which will result in the barrell valve being set leaner....than it would be by using the secondary system. Different way to skin the cat.
Pill numbers are same for Hilborn. Id say 150 real close for what you have...evident by how it is working.
Hilborn told Flatrat to do a 105. Reason? The last thing a fuel injector manufacturer is gonna do is burn you down on a system he does not have in his hand..a pump he does not know. And nozzles sizes between yours and Flatrats may very well be different.
Different ways to do it. Personally I have the pumps flowed so I know it is up to snuff. I use a light spring on a main jet can and get the fuel back to the tank...soon as she fires. I work my barrel valve and secondary to get the throttle response. And I tune the old fashion way....never had a system flowed.
Main jet till she runs best mph.
Convert main jet to sq inches of area. (area 1)
Fatten main jet 10 numbers. Record area. (area 2)
Put in high speed (jet determined by diff in area 1 and 2)
Play high speed opening till mph comes back.

[Jim Brock]

my base main jet is a 148 and use about 19o/o on barrel valve leakdown, so 150 is close

[Fiat48]

Gotta compare nozzle sizes all you guys have verses cubic inch of your motors before he goes changing to a 150 main jet.

[FlatRat]

O.k.
Yes, I did leave out some 0's.If I squirt fuel in the stacks she lights right off so I'm sure everything else is right.I will put together a flow deal and find out exactly where things the bypasses unload,barrel valve is set, the main jet can does have the light spring,secodary the heavy.Have to work on my lingo.Nozzles are # 9's.Butterflys are set.I'm not sure how to post up pics,but I can send them to someone to post.Thanks,I will keep ya posted on the progress.

[Kurtis500]

Sounds like what was stated before, you have a spring opening to early allowing too much fuel. Also may be your barrel valve opened up too much or improper set-up on the idle setting. You can take the intake line off and look in there at the spool and see if the ramp is just showing. Turn the spool and see which way it goes.

[Morg]

Like Bob said everyone will do things a little different.
Experience is priceless with these deals. With Bob's help my deal came together pretty darn well & did not take to much time.
I highly recomend spending some time HERE (http://kinsler.com/hand31.html)
Lots of usefull information.

[Fiat48]

O.k.
Yes, I did leave out some 0's.If I squirt fuel in the stacks she lights right off so I'm sure everything else is right.I will put together a flow deal and find out exactly where things the bypasses unload,barrel valve is set, the main jet can does have the light spring,secodary the heavy.Have to work on my lingo.Nozzles are # 9's.Butterflys are set.I'm not sure how to post up pics,but I can send them to someone to post.Thanks,I will keep ya posted on the progress.
Send me the pics. If you can get to Chowchilla or CFW....with or without the boat I can show you what to do.

[WannabeRacing]

One quick thing morg. That is a lot of leakdown. If it runs well, then great. Keep it there. Don't change a thing. Maybe your pump is not a biggie, and needs some fuel at idle. But that would be the exception and not the rule. The rule for alcohol is 18 to 22%. Gas is a little less.
And dang, the boat looks good.
And FlatRat. Where are you. Get it to my shop and we will get it straight. I am sure others would help just the same, but BF Egypt does not help with location. . . :rollside:

[olbiezer]

gee bf egypt..that could be here by jackson mississippi :) :)

[FlatRat]

One quick thing morg. That is a lot of leakdown. If it runs well, then great. Keep it there. Don't change a thing. Maybe your pump is not a biggie, and needs some fuel at idle. But that would be the exception and not the rule. The rule for alcohol is 18 to 22%. Gas is a little less.
And dang, the boat looks good.
And FlatRat. Where are you. Get it to my shop and we will get it straight. I am sure others would help just the same, but BF Egypt does not help with location. . . :rollside:
10 miles from the Canadian border....the great Northwest aka Bf Egypt.Well I made a tester and the main can starts leaking air @ 3lbs and is full open @ 6 lbs.The secondary is leaking air @ around 15 lbs and fully unloading @ 30 lbs.I pulled the top fitting off of the barrel valve and the spool is right @ the ramp when butterflies are closed.Not sure what you guys mean when you say the b/v needs to be a certain %.The secondary bypass fitting on th b/v had spring and shim under it.I uderstand that it has way too much fuel @ start up.So I should put the bigger pill in to bypass more fuel to tank?I have 100-125 and then 150-170....Flooded Rat :rollside:

[WannabeRacing]

The ramp on the b-valve is very particular.
There is a little tool that measures what percent of the total flow that will go through the b-valve. There is a little double threaded link between the b-valve and the throttle linkage that will turn the arm of the b-valve closer to wide open one way, and further away from wide open. You want the ramp to where 18 to 22 percent of full low actually passes through at idle. (For most applications.) If you are at 30%, it will flood at idle, no matter what pill you have in the fuel system. If you are at 10% it will be too lean, no matter the pill. That is what you want to adjust for the idle. Take the jam nuts loose, then turn that arm until the thing will idle without flooding. Then tighten the nuts back up to keep it there. You may need minor adjustments from there, but get it to where it will idle, then play with pills and stuff. It would be nice to plug the thing to the right tool and get it right with the engine off, but if you do not have it, then plan b. Play with that adjustment until the thing will idle. I wish you were closer. A few minutes at my shop and we could get it running.
Try this and check back.

[Moneypitt]

Sounds like what was stated before, you have a spring opening to early allowing too much fuel. Also may be your barrel valve opened up too much or improper set-up on the idle setting. You can take the intake line off and look in there at the spool and see if the ramp is just showing. Turn the spool and see which way it goes.
He has a spring/poppet opening LATE, keeping the by pass CLOSED at idle, forcing too much fuel into it. From what he has reported about opening pressures I'm wondering which way the poppets are facing? ........Ray

[Fiat48]

I wish Gofastracer was here. he da gas man...sure he would say put a light spring in that secondary but I really fear confusing Flatrat with all this. So I am gonna shut up.

[Moneypitt]

Bob, we run the lightest spring in the "can" without a pill. The can with the pill is shimmed to hold the pressure longer, (45lbs or so). His opening numbers don't seem all that far off, thats why I'm wondering if the "cans are in backwards, making a total block off of any by passing. OR, he's got an alky barrel valve?.....And Yes Art would be an asset at this point in time. As mentioned by someone else, even you, "if it were here .." it would be a snap.........Ray

[FlatRat]

I just came in from the shop.I turned the B/V four flats leaner,seemed better but still pissed fuel out the airbleeds.The poppets,I believe are in correctly.The secondary has an s-4 with a arrow for fuel flow and the main is one of those with a quick disconnect.Fuel flow is against spring pressure,right?I did however pull the secondary fitting off of the B/V and there is spring and a shim.So why would I have a spring/shim in B/V and run a bypass can with a heavy spring and poppet?An Alky b/v ?How would check this?The injector itself had #6 nozzles in it.I want to thank all of you for taking the time to try and steer me in the right direction.I'll keep diggin' till I get it. :boxed:
I have good selection of springs,pills and shims.

[Fiat48]

send pictures. Complete injector, fuel system and all you can show me.

[GofastRacer]

Well just got back from a road trip that lasted wayyyy to long than planned so I'm way behind, :mad: But man o man I can't believe how such a no brainer thing has escalated into such a high tech program that Einstein couldn't even figure out, LOL... But right now the main priority is :sleeping: :sleeping: :sleeping: Over and out!...

[Fiat48]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374juneo6046.jpg
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http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374juneo6042.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/374juneo6045.jpg

[Fiat48]

The fuel goes into the injector through the top of the barrel valve.
The secondary comes out the side of that barrel valve and to this tank deal you made. I am not sure about that. I prefer return fuel to go into the top of the tank like you have done with the main can.
I see the main jet quick change. Spring it came with is fine. Double check it is facing correctly..poppet toward fuel pressure.
Put at least a 120 pill in that thing. Youll probably end up with about a 150.
You mentiona a 6a nozzle the injector came with. I sure hope it has a 9a now.
Consult Gofastracer or Moneypitt on this nozzle size. I think a 9a is what you want.
I would:
Put a leak tester line to the top of the barell valve.
Cap off the secondary.
See what the leak is.
Set the leak by adjusting the leak to approx 18%. This is just a temp setting.
Take the secondary can apart...install a light spring in there...maybe 6lbs..8 lbs...I think Moneypitt said that was a .016 wire spring. I want that secondary bypassing some fuel at idle back to the tank. No pill in that secondary.
I would move that secondary to where it could return fuel to the top of the T tank so I knew there was no restriction. I am not saying what you have wont work. I want to go with what I know works.
Fire the thing....you will probably have to adjust the barell...but at least you will know where it is at to start with.
Adjust throttle blades for idle rpm.
Adjust barrel valve link for idle mixture. Lean barrel valve till slight hesitation when the throttle is yanked opened. Richen barell valve till no hesitation.
Then richen barrell 2 more flats from there....for extra fuel for load.
Thats a baseline. I cannot see why fuel would come out the air bleeds if all is set this way. If it does...then maybe...just maybe the thing does have an alky spool in it or something out of the norm.

[GofastRacer]

Well, everything looks ok except for the return line from the surge tank to the t-tank, it should be at the same level as the feed line so there is room at the top of the tank for the returns, this way the tank will be too full so the secondary needs to be moved to the t-tank and it needs to run direct, not t'd into another line!. Normally the returns would go to the surge tank in the side(look at mine), if you put them on the top you need to make deflectors otherwise the fuel will become airaited, both the main and secondary are like a fire hose when working!.... Nozzles need to be 9A's for that size motor... The quick change can is not Hilborn so use what ever spring that came with it, the lenght of the can may be a different lenght than a Hilborn so the same spring in one or the other will give a different pressure. That spring may or not be the ideal one but it will work to start off with!..... The secondary should have a .028 wire and a thick shim to start off with!... Check timing of the spool, sounds like it may be off?????... Set butterflies at .002, if you have such exotic tools as a leakdown tester do as Bob says on the barell valve, if you don't have one or can't borrow one, undo the line and blow thru it while rotating the adjusting link, you will notice a difference in air flow from closed to open, set it someplace in the middle, when it fires up you'll know which way it needs to go right away, but it will run!(This is not a blown motor).... A note about the spring in the main, since it comes off the pump that means it controls fuel pressure, that means a change in spring affects the barell valve adjustment and the secondary bypass, but that's down the road after you get it running!..... No reason why it shouldn't run!

[FlatRat]

Just came from work so I'm heading to the shop.I will do the changes and give 'er a shot....... :) This is going to be the day!!

[GofastRacer]

Sooo, did it run????..

[Moneypitt]

Art, he can't get close enough to the 'puter to type............I guess it sounded like godzilla.........Gotta love it...............Ray

[FlatRat]

Well poop,
I don't really how to say this but here goes.My father -in-law who used to Top Fuel and lots of injected stuff came over to help.The upshot of the deal is he didn't like the idea of the surge tank,so off it came"we didn't do that in the old days".After fuzzing around with it several hours,it didn't pop off at all....nothing.He left scratching and shaking his head.This morning I will re-install surge tank,replumb the secondary and go back to where it was.How fast does the motor have to crank @ start up to produce proper fuel pressure?Did you check the pic of the b/v with the words ''Kinsler AL"...is this Alky? It WILL happen I just don't know when..... :220v:

[GofastRacer]

Well I was about to ask about the surge tank. With the t-tank that high you don't need a surge tank the pump is always primed. When you fill the t-tank, how far is the fuel level from the nozzles???... If you squirted it the thing should have fired, even if it wouldn't keep running it would run as long as you squirt it!. Motor has to be running to get full pressure, but as long as the pump is primed it will move fuel while cranking, the longer the line the longer it takes for fuel to reach the nozzles, but it looks like the fuel should be close to the nozzles from the height of that tank???..

[FlatRat]

Art,
the t-tank has no fuel it...it's just a fancy way of filling the two 10 gal. saddle tanks.Yea I know...wtf .Previous owners removed the tank fillers on the side,so the t-tank fills them via hoses off of the bottom of t- tank,so I think the surge tank is needed.Here's what we did try.To make sure the the pump was pumping fuel we set up plumbed in the surge tank as our main fuel supply and positioned it above the pump and crank it....we never had any fuel the b/v,but when I spun 'er over with the air drill the other day it pumped like a mofo. :confused:
After pops left I put the stacks back on then shot two good squirts of fuel then it popped off...it don't think he was giving it enough fuel

[GofastRacer]

Ok gotcha, didn't know about that deal yes you need a surge tank for sure!. As far as pumping fuel while cranking, you got to remember that the pump turns half the speed of the motor, so when it's cranking the pump hardly turns but with a drill motor it's turning a hell of a lot faster!..

[FlatRat]

Art,
the t-tank has no fuel it...it's just a fancy way of filling the two 10 gal. saddle tanks.Yea I know...wtf .Previous owners removed the tank fillers on the side,so the t-tank fills them via hoses off of the bottom of t- tank,so I think the surge tank is needed.Here's what we did try.To make sure the the pump was pumping fuel we set up plumbed in the surge tank as our main fuel supply and positioned it above the pump and crank it....we never had any fuel the b/v,but when I spun 'er over with the air drill the other day it pumped like a mofo. :confused:
Whoops darn double post

[GofastRacer]

So how did it go today Tim??.. :)

[FlatRat]

:cry: ....I think it's toast.I re-did the plumbing then shot some fuel in the stacks.It popped right off but backfired out of the pipes.Well it didn't do that when I first put it together.So I says,start from basics as Morg stated, check timing firing order ect.I pulled the plugs to roll it over and it was really tight like wtf...It seems that the mag had jumped the oil pump drive dog....well I think ya what happened after that.No oil pump,no oil....no more bearings.I must be the only mofo that has ever fuzzed up an engine without ever really starting it!!I will run the pump with a drill and see if there is any oil pressure.If not well then I know what has to be done. :220v:

[FlatRat]

update:
50 lbs oil pressure w/ a 900 rpm drill!Maybe just maybe....It might be o.k. :rollside:

[FlatRat]

IT'S ALIVE!!!!She starts and runs w/75 lbs oil press. @ idle.Timing was off,plugs were fouled.I just had re-group :)

[GofastRacer]

Congrats glad to hear it runs, now before you do any adjustments set your timing!.... So what's up with the mag deal????..

[fc-pilot]

FlatRat, congrats! Sooner or later these guys would get you going in the right direction. That is one of the problems when dealing with something new. If something goes wrong we tend to blame the new part, when it might just be something simple the whole time. Now getting this thing dialed in will really be fun. :)
Paul

[FlatRat]

Congrats glad to hear it runs, now before you do any adjustments set your timing!.... So what's up with the mag deal????..
Seems like I didn't have the mag seated in bore right.I used one of those spacer things and it almost cost me.I set the timing up with 14 deg. initial with 24 in the mag.I still have a little fuel seeping out #'s 7-8 nozzle.We'll do some tweeking this week and see we can it on the water this weekend.It's official, we have an injected Howard.Thanks to all of you!!
:)

[GofastRacer]

Seems like I didn't have the mag seated in bore right.I used one of those spacer things and it almost cost me.I set the timing up with 14 deg. initial with 24 in the mag.I still have a little fuel seeping out #'s 7-8 nozzle.We'll do some tweeking this week and see we can it on the water this weekend.It's official, we have an injected Howard.Thanks to all of you!!:)
Wow, you must have had a big spacer to do that?, now make sure you don't have the opposite, you don't want the mag to bottom out on the shaft that will ruin the pump!..

[FlatRat]

Wow, you must have had a big spacer to do that?, now make sure you don't have the opposite, you don't want the mag to bottom out on the shaft that will ruin the pump!..
10-4...I uummm measured it this time around.Wow,this has been and is still a big learning curve for me.That damn RiverRats Dvd.That's what happened,watching all of the badass boats.....RR2 DVD $20.00 ...Hilborn Injector set-up $20,000...memories ...priceless :rollside:

[WannabeRacing]

First of all, I really hope that the Hilborn deal was not 20 grand. Second, I am glad that you found the problem. Third, once you get the injection fine tuned, and run it around, you will never go back to carbs. And fourth, (where all the rest of us are at), start watching ebay, junk, and other sites to get that injection set-up under $1000 total for your next project.
Good luck with it!

[FlatRat]

First of all, I really hope that the Hilborn deal was not 20 grand. Second, I am glad that you found the problem. Third, once you get the injection fine tuned, and run it around, you will never go back to carbs. And fourth, (where all the rest of us are at), start watching ebay, junk, and other sites to get that injection set-up under $1000 total for your next project.
Good luck with it!
Thanks,
the 20 g's were the unit and the shrink bill.J/K,I wasn't thinking outside the box.I have around 1,250 or so into it.Had to get different nozzles so that cost me.Anyone looking some carbs?

[WannabeRacing]

Carbs are like crabs. O.K. if someone else has got them, but keep them far away from me. I want nothing to do with them!

[GofastRacer]

10-4...I uummm measured it this time around.Wow,this has been and is still a big learning curve for me.That damn RiverRats Dvd.That's what happened,watching all of the badass boats.....RR2 DVD $20.00 ...Hilborn Injector set-up $20,000...memories ...priceless :rollside:
Well glad that's taken cared of, now it's on to do some tuning!. With the timing set where you want it, get the motor up to running temperature and set the secondary up so it's clean as I mentioned to ya before!.