procharger or blower..let's hear it !

[simi flatie]

What should I put in my 26 Howard cat ?? Thinking maybe 610 with procharger system or 610 with blower ?? Or how about 610 with NOS??

[steve@kps]

depends on how much you wanna work on it.
610 c.i. and a nice procharger w/ excellent heads and semi-rad. cam..... that'll be a screamer.
blower, depends on how much boost. it could make some easy horsepower. But, watch out for main bearings. run a good system1 filter so you can tell if anything is coming apart.
NOS.... LOL, bottles are for babies, real men get BLOWN. wink j/k

[Infomaniac]

Blower !!!!
PM me and I will fix you up.

[78Eliminator]

Infomaniac:
Blower !!!!
PM me and I will fix you up. Ok Info, I'm not being a smart ass, I am asking you seriously:
You just stated on another thread that a blower is less efficient that a turbo yet here you are recommending one. Why would you not suggest a turbo to this person?

[Infomaniac]

I am pretty sure he has a covered engine.
And Prochargers SUCK
[ January 15, 2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[78Eliminator]

Infomaniac:
I am pretty sure he has a covered engine.
And Prochargers SUCK Covered engine would explain it. I think I heard that the turbo exhaust manifolds get up to 1500 degrees....

[78Eliminator]

Infomaniac:
I am pretty sure he has a covered engine.
And Prochargers SUCK What kind of blowers do you like? BDS? KUHL? WEIAND?

[Infomaniac]

Weiand blowers are not very good quality. I have used Littlefield, BDS and B&M before they were sold. I am Sure Blower Shop, Kuhl, Mooneyham and the other big name blower folks are all good. B&M used to be a good product.

[78Eliminator]

Infomaniac:
Weiand blowers are not very good quality. I have used Littlefield, BDS and B&M before they were sold. I am Sure Blower Shop, Kuhl, Mooneyham and the other big name blower folks are all good. B&M used to be a good product. Teflon or no?

[Blown 472]

78Eliminator:
Infomaniac:
Weiand blowers are not very good quality. I have used Littlefield, BDS and B&M before they were sold. I am Sure Blower Shop, Kuhl, Mooneyham and the other big name blower folks are all good. B&M used to be a good product. Teflon or no? Teflon wears, so the tight blower you had will loosen up to a street blower spec, I have one of each and it was a big diff from the non teflon to the teflon, I had the carbs all dialed in on the street blower and then put the race one on and major rich condition, I was told the teflon blower when fresh will put an atmoshere of vac, the damn thing was so rich at idle it was black, drove it teflon wore and it calmed down.
[ January 15, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[MKEELINE]

I'm pretty sure that there's alot of turbo boats running around with covered engines. You just can't hear them!

[DogHouse]

MKEELINE:
I'm pretty sure that there's alot of turbo boats running around with covered engines. You just can't hear them! If you're going to run a covered turbo motor it's almost mandatory to have water cooled turbine housings or at least water cooled heat shields. Otherwise, good luck keeping your hatch from melting/burning! eek!
Simi, you running a Bravo? If you build that 610 monster with a blower, turbo, etc, the thing is gonna make so much torque that a Bravo (even a beefed up one) probably won't live very long. You could think about building a smaller motor and making the HP that you want up top with good parts and boost. That way it wouldn't make so much torque down low to kill the drive.
-brian

[MKEELINE]

I have a cover on my turbo motor(old RayJays w/ heat shields only) and have had no problems to this point. The engine cover does have a scoop in it. I would like to run some waterjacketed heat shields, but haven't been able to find any.

[roln 20s]

Simi Flattie- Did you see the 28 Bullet with the twin turbo? Sounds like the 350 in my Malibu ski boat. That is a sick motor. Other than that engine, I say go with the blower. No experience, but I am sure not a huge fan of ProCharger. They don't seem to be as efficient as others.
On one of the other threads...someone gave a great word about The Blower Shop! I have also heard great things about their blowers. Check it out.
Still can't wait to see the finished product. Did you finish the trailer yet? Is it 3-axle, custom wheels, disc brakes, etc...
A 610 with a blower, running a low boost, sounds good to me.
Roln 20s

[mbrown2]

Info,
On blowers...What about whippled or quad whippled versus Roots...I am thinking 540 with roots (871) or whippled? I would like to do it without cutting the hatch and get 800hp with the right heads, cam, with moderate compression, but I am wondering what Blower type is going to more efficient and trouble free over the long run..

[Infomaniac]

540 with intercooled 10-71 is what I am building now.
Whipples are very nice and very expensive. If you have the money go for it. I would highly recommend one for an engine that is electronic fuel injected already. A built from scratch engine for me will be old faithful 10-71.
Total cost for the 540 I am doing now will be right at 20K. This is EVERYTHING NEW. block etc. Best of everything on the parts also. Including fuel and ignition systems.
I am not sure how to get 610. A 598 is the biggest I would care to build with a tall deck block. Even then the rod/stroke ratio will suck and the bore is within .025 of maximum. The cyls will wear much faster with that rod/ stroke ratio.
A 540 tall deck has an excellent rod/stroke ratio and has 1/8 inch of bore left for future builds.
Will live a good long time and still make plenty of power.
I would like to build a 705 using a Merlin Super Block. When someone with enough money wants one I will. It will be the ulitmate in simplicity. One carb naturally aspirated and probably make at least 800 HP at stock Mercruiser RPM's. A tiny bit of boost would push that one over 1,000 HP no problem. You cannot build an engine like that without buying the best of parts so it would live forever. The naturally aspirated one could probably be built for 16 - 17K.
[ January 15, 2003, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[tsnave]

Go easy there infomaniac! The ProCharger comes with a three year warranty. What kind of warranty does the ole roots come with? I agree that ATI has had their fare share of ups-&-downs, but I feel they are much more conservative than they used to be. I am curious as to what your experience is with centrifigal superchargers and/or ATI? It's also kind of nice to keep her all under the hatch for those infamous sunbathers. I have had nothing but good experiences with ATI and centrifigal superchargers. There is a lot to be said for all of the various types of forced induction. You just have to take all of the variables in to consideration for your application. As for me, there was NO question that I had to stay under the hatch. Also, when it comes to BIG cubic inch, it becomes BIG dollars for the quad rotor setup. So, centrifigal made the most sense for me.

[Infomaniac]

tsnave:
Go easy there infomaniac! The ProCharger comes with a three year warranty. What kind of warranty does the ole roots come with? I agree that ATI has had their fare share of ups-&-downs, but I feel they are much more conservative than they used to be. I am curious as to what your experience is with centrifigal superchargers and/or ATI? It's also kind of nice to keep her all under the hatch for those infamous sunbathers. I have had nothing but good experiences with ATI and centrifigal superchargers. There is a lot to be said for all of the various types of forced induction. You just have to take all of the variables in to consideration for your application. As for me, there was NO question that I had to stay under the hatch. Also, when it comes to BIG cubic inch, it becomes BIG dollars for the quad rotor setup. So, centrifigal made the most sense for me. You are right. That statement was not cool. Not all of them suck. The carb blow through units are way too complex and easily damage engines. The unit like you have for sale looks like a decent one. As a matter of fact the thought crossed my mind about buying yours to make a dual procharger set up for this 540. The thought was about as far as it went.
[ January 15, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[tsnave]

Hey info! We need to talk! I just realized you are from Broken Arrow, OK. My brother lives in Owasso. He works for AA. A dual centrifigal setup would be sweet. I live about 15 minutes away from ATI and have "walked in" to their facility and have been treated with the best of service. You just have to know who to deal with. Sergio has been awesome! If "simi" is going 610 CI, he will NOT need the instant boost of a whipple. Plus, the Superchiller I have is the latest version, which is supposed to be a BIG improvement over the earlier cores. I'm just a BIG fan of being able to blow up my motor with a laptop computer. It's much easier! Ha! Ha! The M3 that I have is an oil fed unit with the latest revisions. Are you a fan of EFI? e-mail at taevans@swbell.net if you are interested.

[DogHouse]

Roln, the centrifugal compressor (eg: Procharger) is actually more efficient than a roots. For a given boost level & rpm, it will consume less power from the crank and add less heat to the intake charge. That means it can run even more boost for a given engine/fuel combo. I believe that the screw blower (eg: PSI, Whipple) is somewhere inbetween, much better than a roots but maybe not quite as good as a centrifugal. What the roots and screw do that a centrifugal doesn't is give you a relatively flat boost curve with rpm. They will make nearly full boost at low and mid rpm, which gives them great throttle response and torque throughout the rpm range. The centrifugal is sized and setup with the correct pulleys to give your max desired boost level at some max rpm, and it's a fairly linear line between 0 boost/0 rpm and max boost/max rpm.
It's hard to say which is "best", really depends on the application and what you're trying to accomplish. In this case we're talking about a 600+ inch motor in front of a Bravo style outdrive with limited torque handling capability. If you want to go for max kill hp on the top end, you'll need plenty of boost depending on fuel, for arguments sake let's say 10 psi for pump gas assuming sufficiently low compression. Let's also say we're shooting for max hp at 6000 rpm. That will put the torque peak in the neighborhood of 4500 rpm. With a roots or screw blower, you're going to end up with that 10 psi (or close to it) over a very wide rpm range, including your peak torque rpm. That means that this 600+ inch motor is going to make a sh!tload of torque and shred that Bravo in no time. A centrifugal would give a "softer" torque curve because it wouldn't reach the full 10 psi until 6000 rpm. At 4500 rpm, it may only be making 6 or 7 psi (just guessing here), yielding less torque and therefore being a little easier on the outdrive.
A good alternative would be to build a smaller motor like Info says and use a Whipple or one of the better roots blowers. I think there have been some advances like retro cases and hi-helix rotors that have improved efficiencies over the standard roots setups. If you have the dough you could also go to a pro-stock style head and valve trane to make a sh!tload of hp at very high rpm and limit the peak torque. Basically what you're shooting for is a balance between the hp you want to make the boat go fast and the torque that your drive will put up with. If you have a jet or v-drive, no worries, build it large and in charge!
The cool thing about all this is that there are so many fun options out there if you have the $$$ to ante up! Well that was a mouthful. Hopefully not all of it was BS...
wink
[ January 15, 2003, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: DogHouse ]

[tsnave]

Well said Doghouse! Plus, did I mention I need to sell my setup for personal reasons. Can you help a fellow boater out "simi"?

[tsnave]

You know! I also have one of those there Blackhawk otdrives that would work great on that new Howard. You could beef 'er up and build a little smaller motor. Gary Misenberg, the lead development Engineer (and friend) on the Blackhawk project owns a Talon. Very similar bottom to the Howard. Runs 100 with about 500HP. The drive works awesome with that bottom!

[DogHouse]

Well I'd sure love to take that M3/EFI setup off your hands and drop it on top of my 588, but I'm afraid the cashflow just isn't in the cards. Besides my wife would absolutely kill me, closely followed by my insurance guy!
Good luck with the sale, it's a really nice setup and I'm sure someone will step up.
-brian

[tsnave]

Thanks Brian! Not "enough" with the 588? If I may ask, what speeds are you getting with your combination. You've got an awesome ride! Help me get all the votes together for "simi" to go with this trick setup. I'm sure Gary Teague would help tune her if a guy buys an Autronic ECU from him. Awesome guy!

[THOR]

Infomaniac:
I am pretty sure he has a covered engine.
And Prochargers SUCK Why do Prochargers and/or Vortecs suck? I am curious. A friend of mine is running one on a scarab and that thing screams.

[DogHouse]

tsnave:
Thanks Brian! Not "enough" with the 588? If I may ask, what speeds are you getting with your combination. You've got an awesome ride! Help me get all the votes together for "simi" to go with this trick setup. I'm sure Gary Teague would help tune her if a guy buys an Autronic ECU from him. Awesome guy! Thanks, it really does run fine right now, plenty fast to be fun, low 90s with a stock 28 Bravo four blade and a 1.5 XR drive. Of course I'd like to try to make it just a ***little*** faster, ha ha! A lab finished prop, nosecone, and maybe a shorty lower should get it to run better without adding power. Oh well, guess I better plant that money tree in the back yard! We'll have to see how the tax man treats me this year. eek!
-brian

[simi flatie]

Okay, first off all good INFO. Leaning toward the procharger. T. Evans after all the emails, and garthering all the info I will give you a call this weekend and we can talk. Roln, have you been by Howards latley? I havent been by there scents Jan 3rd a total of 1 time after ordering. I want Gene to take his time so I havenot been by there. I am busting my butt on the trailer, Triple axel, cut a way front,Disc Brakes, egale wheels goodyear. Getting it powder coated next week. Thinking purple. Only thing left is the ladder and I will be biulding it this weekend and getting it on the trailer. another fun weekend of welding.
One reason leading me toward the procharge is flat cover no cutting the hatch (fiberglass) Hey mbrown Im in Simi Texas track would love to see your set up.

[mbrown2]

simi flatie:
Hey mbrown Im in Simi Texas track would love to see your set up. I will try and post some pics...I keep the boat up at the river where we have a place...I live Sequoia in the south hills in the newer Beazer Homes...we will have to hook up at the river or Havasu this summer if not sooner around town Simi for a beer.

[mbrown2]

Simi Flattie, here are some pics...its tough to see the engine, but its a 502EFI/Whipped..and runs great
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/DVC00033.JPG
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/DVC000341.JPG
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/DVC00040.JPG
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/DVC00038.JPG

[tsnave]

mbrown2, that boat is awesome! Do you have any pics from the side view? If you ever want to sell it down the line, let me know. e-mail me at taevans@swbell.net

[THOR]

I am curious. How much does it cost for a full install for a:
Whipple?
Procharger?

[24RODjr]

Teague Pro Charger install (super clean) was:
-4K for the parts,
-3K for outdrive upgrade
-2K for labor
More or less...I would stongly recommend the outdrive upgrade, as we lunched our Bravo 1 with nothing more than a stock 454.
-C

[LevoeDCB22]

No input on the blowers... I just have a lil carb, but anyone gonna be out near havasu next monday or tuesday, 1-20, 1-21, gotta try out the new prop/drive setup, and put the boat in the new storage shed

[mbrown2]

tsnave:
mbrown2, that boat is awesome! Do you have any pics from the side view? If you ever want to sell it down the line, let me know. e-mail me at taevans@swbell.net Thnx for the compliment..appreciate it, and when I am ready for the F26, I will look you up...

[mbrown2]

THOR:
I am curious. How much does it cost for a full install for a:
Whipple?
Procharger? I am not too sure, I bought it used; it was 2002 with 18-20hrs on it, and already had the Whipple on it. I am figuring 5500-6000 for parts and I have no clue on what or hour many hours they charge for labor...You have to factor in the in the water tuning time they spend as well. Call GT Performance in Montclair, CA. Gary does a lot of Whipple installs and does good work, he should be able to give you a fair quote for either.

[mbrown2]

tsnave:
mbrown2, that boat is awesome! Do you have any pics from the side view? If you ever want to sell it down the line, let me know. e-mail me at taevans@swbell.net Side view (not the best, but the best I have currently)
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/1-10.JPG
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Reader_Rides/Stern_Drives/DVC00016.JPG

[THOR]

I have been hearing that you could get into a Procharger for around 6k installed and a whipple for 2k more than that. Just wondering. I really dont want to use someone that is no reputable, but I would like to be a little knowledgable going into the deal.

[simi flatie]

mbrown2:
simi flatie:
Hey mbrown Im in Simi Texas track would love to see your set up. I will try and post some pics...I keep the boat up at the river where we have a place...I live Sequoia in the south hills in the newer Beazer Homes...we will have to hook up at the river or Havasu this summer if not sooner around town Simi for a beer.

[tsnave]

One more little perk of an EFI/ProCharger setup like mine is the ability to run full sequntial fuel injection. The Whipple, etc. utilizes a large throttle body with multiple injectors before the compressor. If a guy wants to tweak each cylinder, he can do so with a full sequential setup. Just another thought! Also, if a full sequential setup is enticing, it's tough to beat www.fuelairspark.com (http://www.fuelairspark.com) (aka.speedpro) ECU for versatility. It even has provisions for multi-stage NOS if needed. Awesome stuff!

[mbrown2]

simi flatie:
mbrown2:
simi flatie:
Hey mbrown Im in Simi Texas track would love to see your set up. I will try and post some pics...I keep the boat up at the river where we have a place...I live Sequoia in the south hills in the newer Beazer Homes...we will have to hook up at the river or Havasu this summer if not sooner around town Simi for a beer. ??? :confused:

[roln 20s]

Hey MBrown2-
I didn't know your DCB was a cuddy/bowrider. I love it. Looks bad ass. Man, I really need a sick boat, and soon.
Roln 20s

[simi flatie]

MBrown2,
Way nice boat!!!! To bad the boats not out here would have loved to take a look at her.
WELL ITS OFFICAL THE CAT IS GOING TO THE L.A BOAT SHOW !!!
Guess I will not be taking her home anytime soon

[mbrown2]

roln 20s:
Hey MBrown2-
I didn't know your DCB was a cuddy/bowrider. I love it. Looks bad ass. Man, I really need a sick boat, and soon.
Roln 20s Thnx for the compliment...I love her too...Yeah, my wife wanted open bow, or I was not gett'n a cat, so it is the best of both...I am sure you will be getting a sick boat in due time...In the meantime, you are welcome to ride in mine.

[mbrown2]

simi flatie:
MBrown2,
Way nice boat!!!! To bad the boats not out here would have loved to take a look at her.
WELL ITS OFFICAL THE CAT IS GOING TO THE L.A BOAT SHOW !!!
Guess I will not be taking her home anytime soon I will be looking for it at the boat show...So will it just be Hull & Interior?

[roln 20s]

In the meantime, you are welcome to ride in mine.
You just made my day! I can't wait to roll in the DCB. This summer, its on :D
SIMI- your boat at the LA boat show is going to just add to the sickest display of boats around- the HOWARD area is going to be loaded with bad ass stuff. I can't wait for the 15th of Feb, I'm there.
Roln 20s

[simi flatie]

mbrown2:
simi flatie:
MBrown2,
Way nice boat!!!! To bad the boats not out here would have loved to take a look at her.
WELL ITS OFFICAL THE CAT IS GOING TO THE L.A BOAT SHOW !!!
Guess I will not be taking her home anytime soon I will be looking for it at the boat show...So will it just be Hull & Interior? Hull & Interior,gages and controls. Going to Howard today to pick up the stock motor and drive. Will be there most of the week-end installing the gages and controls at their shop.
And maybe the trailer I built for it, depends if I get it back from the powder coater on time. Sure hope so, it would put the Extrem trailers there to shame eek! (not THAT I DONOT LIKE 'EM BUT THEY ARE WAY OVER PRICED) SEE YA AT THE BOAT SHOW........(LOL)

[riverliver]

http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Forum_Graphic_Depot/1-10.JPG
Nice lookin ride mbrown2
I am sure we will see you this summer, we hang out a lot at the upper sandbar. wink :D
[ January 17, 2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: riverliver ]

[riverliver]

Go with the Blower !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mbrown2]

riverliver:
Nice lookin ride mbrown2
I am sure we will see you this summer, we hang out a lot at the upper sandbar. wink :D Thnx Riverliver, I have probably seen your ride as well, but never knew it was you, plus I probably would not want to race your beast, so I would look the other way.. j/k:) :D :)
Yeah, we will definitely have to hook up this year. :) :D

[tsnave]

Hey Simi! Call me when you get a chance. 913-530-6370.

[simi flatie]

tsnave:
Hey Simi! Call me when you get a chance. 913-530-6370. I have to sell my Flattie before I can buy any parts.....So I will give ya a call when I do . If your stuff is still around by then........

[tsnave]

That's cool! I'll be here...

[hulshot]

simi be sure to get some pics of the boat show and the howard diplay and post them. mine was there n 2000 as well as the twin outboard. I personally like the look of the big blower on the engine. It gives a big impression and looks very balanced in the engine hatch.