View Full Version : My 455 Build...
I thought I'd post up a "build log" of my 455. I had a streak of bad luck last year with bottom ends. By posting up this build I was hoping that if anyone saw something out of place they could chime in. That and it gives me something else to do.
Anyways, still kind of rookie when it comes to engine building so other than "Put a Chevy/Ford in it", your guys input is welcome. I've done a few builds before but have always had someone holding my hand.
Some specs... everything was balanced and blueprinted
Block:
.60 over, line bored, magnafluxed, Mondello main oil restrictors
Crank:
10/10, magnafluxed, cross-drilled and chamfered, main bearings slotted
Pistons and rods:
Forged Speed Pro L2323 (dished), moly rings, stock rods-cleaned, magnafluxed, and resized, ARP bolts.
Heads:
Stock Ka's with drain back mod.
Cam:
COMP Cams 280/280 dur. .490/.490 lift
Clearances:
Main bearing-.003
Rod bearing-.0025
Piston/cylinder-.0035
Other stuff:
HV oil pump, 10qt Hardin pan (thanks Wet Dream), Torker intake, Holley 4160 715 cfm carb (for now), stock HEI ignition
Time for some pics: *Click on pics for larger version*
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4552th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4552.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4553th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4553.jpg)
Tonight I set the crank in. I had previously checked the clearances with Plastigauge just to get and idea of how close to spec they were. The mains were pretty much uniformly dead on at .003.
I put all the main caps on and ran the bolts in just to seat the caps (no torque). Per an article (http://www.mondellotwister.com/Art455OldsTG.htm) on Mondello's site I checked the thrust bearing clearance. It says there's supposed to be .004 to .010 clearance. I'm guessing that's front AND back? So, .004 on one side and .004 also on the other? Also, should I have that clearance all the way around the journal? If you're looking at the crank from the front (motor upside down obviously) I can get a .004 feeler in at 3 o'clock on the front but not on the back and vice versa and neither a 12 o'clock. Maybe I just need to start tightening things down and recheck as I go. Maybe the crank is sitting a bit wonky without a bit of torque on the caps?
capt.murph
06-22-2006, 09:28 PM
LOOKIN GOOD I TO IM GETTING READY TO DO THIS .WHERE DID U ORDER YOUR PISTONS ETC.(I AM LOKING AT SUMMIT OR JEGS)DID U DO THE DRAIN LINES FROM THE HEADS OR DID U HAVE A MACHINE SHOP DO THEM.I AM GETTING READY TO DO MY REBUILD AND ALREADY NERVOUS (LOL)AND TO TOP IT OFF MY FIANCEE THROWS A WAY MY HOT BOAT OLDS BIBLE :mad: :mad: KEEP US INFORMED ON YOUR PROGRESS AND GOOD LUCK :) :)
Slotted bearings before I set the crank...
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/455001th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/455001.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/455002th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/455002.jpg)
LOOKIN GOOD I TO IM GETTING READY TO DO THIS .WHERE DID U ORDER YOUR PISTONS ETC.(I AM LOKING AT SUMMIT OR JEGS)DID U DO THE DRAIN LINES FROM THE HEADS OR DID U HAVE A MACHINE SHOP DO THEM.I AM GETTING READY TO DO MY REBUILD AND ALREADY NERVOUS (LOL)AND TO TOP IT OFF MY FIANCEE THROWS A WAY MY HOT BOAT OLDS BIBLE :mad: :mad: KEEP US INFORMED ON YOUR PROGRESS AND GOOD LUCK :) :)
Got all my parts from Summit. Me and friend did the drain lines. They go from the back of the head to the sides of the pan. That sucks about the mag. Just do what just did and order the back issue for $10.
I'm pretty nervous about my build too. After building 2 motors last year only to have them fail, my wife said that if this one bites the dust too we're just gonna set the boat on fire! :skull:
myoung
06-22-2006, 11:12 PM
Looking good mang. :cool:
NautiII
06-22-2006, 11:30 PM
Lookin real good. my motor is a 455 as well, with all the same mods you have, and it runs great! keep us posted!! oh, and with the oil drain backs that I have on mine, I opted not to do the oil restrictors. no oil issues either.
Taylorman
06-23-2006, 05:29 AM
It may be just an illustion in the picture but it looks like you did not put the restrictors in the mains deep enough. Did you push them down to the point where the two oil galleys intersect? Also, read last months article in Hot boat on Olds mods. Engine looks good. There is a mod that you should do on the rear main cap for the oil pump that is in this article. If you are putting a new cam in it, make sure to use either Rotella diesel oil or Comp cams oil additive in your oil when you break in the cam. This is EXTREMELY important or you could ruin the cam. For the thrust clearance, you need to torque down the caps and give it a couple of good hits with a rubber mallet front and back then check it with a dial indicator to see how much it moves. Take a big flat screwdriver or prybar and move it to see how much TOTAL movement you have from front to rear. I think, no positive, it should be between .005 and .020. Are you using restrictors somewhere in the top like restricted pushrods?
396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
06-23-2006, 06:43 AM
Looking real good. That thing shouldnt have any problems. Keep us informed....
455Rocket
06-23-2006, 02:14 PM
I suggest beefy mag rods... stockers are really wimpy. Speaking from experence :boxed:
Taylorman
06-23-2006, 03:52 PM
beefy mag rods
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????
holorinhal
06-23-2006, 04:48 PM
Can You order back isues of Hot Boat Mag?
Can You order back isues of Hot Boat Mag?
Yeah. Send a check to:
LFP Publishing
8484 Wilshire Blvd.
Suite 900
Beverly Hills, CA 90211
This kinda sucks. When I called about getting my subscription fixed I asked about back orders and they told me $10. Now that I'm reading through the small text in the front of the mag I see that its $8. I could bought a burrito with that $2. :cry: :p
It may be just an illustion in the picture but it looks like you did not put the restrictors in the mains deep enough. Did you push them down to the point where the two oil galleys intersect? Also, read last months article in Hot boat on Olds mods. Engine looks good. There is a mod that you should do on the rear main cap for the oil pump that is in this article. If you are putting a new cam in it, make sure to use either Rotella diesel oil or Comp cams oil additive in your oil when you break in the cam. This is EXTREMELY important or you could ruin the cam. For the thrust clearance, you need to torque down the caps and give it a couple of good hits with a rubber mallet front and back then check it with a dial indicator to see how much it moves. Take a big flat screwdriver or prybar and move it to see how much TOTAL movement you have from front to rear. I think, no positive, it should be between .005 and .020. Are you using restrictors somewhere in the top like restricted pushrods?
Taylorman! Thanks for the info.
The oil restrictors are in as far as the instructions told me to put em in. I've never even seen a mod like that before so I just followed the instructions as close as we could. I'll look more into that main cap oil mod. As far as restricted push rods go, I'm tapped out. Mondello wants $200 for a set and thats just not gonna happen. Same thing with a set of beefier rods. My boat get used mainly for skiing and wakeboarding so I think I'll be ok.
Ok, so on the thrust clearance, we're looking for TOTAL side clearance and not setting a clearance on each side.
Taylorman
06-23-2006, 09:09 PM
Taylorman! Thanks for the info.
The oil restrictors are in as far as the instructions told me to put em in. I've never even seen a mod like that before so I just followed the instructions as close as we could. I'll look more into that main cap oil mod. As far as restricted push rods go, I'm tapped out. Mondello wants $200 for a set and thats just not gonna happen. Same thing with a set of beefier rods. My boat get used mainly for skiing and wakeboarding so I think I'll be ok.
Ok, so on the thrust clearance, we're looking for TOTAL side clearance and not setting a clearance on each side.
Just make sure the restrictors are in far enough so that the they are flush with the intersection of the two oil paths. You really need to restrict the top end of the motor as well. I have lifter bore restrictors in mine instead of the pushrods. Some say not to use them with hydraulic lifters but i have not had any problems. Greg Godden told me to use them and sold them to me. You have to tap the oil feed holes in the lifter bores and thread them in.
Ok, maybe I just don't know any better or maybe I'm making something outta nothing but, how important is the thrust clearance?
I've been torqueing down the caps going from the inside out (#3,4,2,5,1) in 20# increments up to 115#s. At each interval I'd smack the crank forward with a rubber mallet and then check the front side of the thrust bearing for total clearance. Now, I can get a .004 feeler gauge (sorry Taylorman, no dial guages handy) in between the crank and thrust side of the bearing but when I go to run it all the way around the circumference, it gets hung up in some spots. Also, the biggest gauge I can get in there is a .004. That means I'm left with .002 on each side. That gonna be enough?
Bump.
I also forgot to mention that I used a rubber rear main seal from a 460 ford as opposed to the rope which seems to be the only thing "available" for the 455. I forgot where I heard this little tip but just a note for anyone else building a 455 in the future.
Some Kind Of Monster
06-24-2006, 10:49 PM
It may be just an illustion in the picture but it looks like you did not put the restrictors in the mains deep enough. Did you push them down to the point where the two oil galleys intersect? Also, read last months article in Hot boat on Olds mods. Engine looks good. There is a mod that you should do on the rear main cap for the oil pump that is in this article. If you are putting a new cam in it, make sure to use either Rotella diesel oil or Comp cams oil additive in your oil when you break in the cam. This is EXTREMELY important or you could ruin the cam. For the thrust clearance, you need to torque down the caps and give it a couple of good hits with a rubber mallet front and back then check it with a dial indicator to see how much it moves. Take a big flat screwdriver or prybar and move it to see how much TOTAL movement you have from front to rear. I think, no positive, it should be between .005 and .020. Are you using restrictors somewhere in the top like restricted pushrods?
Good info!
I've always been told .005 to .010 crank travel.
dunerking
06-25-2006, 08:36 AM
Not to hijack your great thread,but I'm in need of the correct degree of timing in for my 455?Thanks
myoung
06-25-2006, 12:59 PM
If you're still worried about your thrust clearance, swing by the shop and pick up a dial. Probably more gap there than you're measuring with the feeler gauges, which would set your mind at ease I'm sure.
I think this is going to be the one that works. The others just had some black clouds hanging over them, this one is going to be done right. :wink:
myoung
06-25-2006, 01:02 PM
It may be just an illustion in the picture but it looks like you did not put the restrictors in the mains deep enough. Did you push them down to the point where the two oil galleys intersect?
The picture is a bit decieving, they are installed correctly.
If you're still worried about your thrust clearance, swing by the shop and pick up a dial. Probably more gap there than you're measuring with the feeler gauges, which would set your mind at ease I'm sure.
I think this is going to be the one that works. The others just had some black clouds hanging over them, this one is going to be done right. :wink:
Hey Mike, how was Monache? I'll take you up on that dial. When you gonna be at the shop this week? In fact, if you wanna come by and help me pop in some pistons.... :crossx:
I hope this is the one that works. I am just a bit paranoid about the whole thing especially the thrust clearance right now since the last build at the bearing pretty good.
396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
06-25-2006, 08:45 PM
Not to hijack your great thread,but I'm in need of the correct degree of timing in for my 455?Thanks
I ran 30* total in my old boat that had an olds. Keep the timming low and you wont have to worry about detonation! When you detonate the motor it will stress the rods and they are the weakest link in a olds....
I ran 10* inital and 20* of mechanical advance
396
396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
06-25-2006, 08:47 PM
Yo flip, why are you running a hi-vol oil pump???:confused: You want to keep the oil out of the top end on an olds. I ran a higher pressure spring in my last olds motor. I had 90psi cold and 65psi hot. Im not flamming you brotha, Im just curious;)
396
Yo flip, why are you running a hi-vol oil pump???:confused: You want to keep the oil out of the top end on an olds. I ran a higher pressure spring in my last olds motor. I had 90psi cold and 65psi hot. Im not flamming you brotha, Im just curious;)
396
No problem 396!
Ya know, I was in the big debate on what do about an oil pump when ordering parts. I've read that due to the oiling problems you shouldn't run one. Then I was reading through some of the stuff on Mondello's site and they were installing HV's. Also looked at some of the peeps in HB mag through the years that ran a HV. Plus, the one motor that I had that actually ran for 4 years had a HV in it. I also didn't like the oil pressure readings I was getting on the one build that a standard pump in it. It was 30-40 lbs cold idle. Of course that coulda been just because it was built wrong since it did grenade itself. :cry:
396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
06-26-2006, 08:31 AM
No problem 396!
Ya know, I was in the big debate on what do about an oil pump when ordering parts. I've read that due to the oiling problems you shouldn't run one. Then I was reading through some of the stuff on Mondello's site and they were installing HV's. Also looked at some of the peeps in HB mag through the years that ran a HV. Plus, the one motor that I had that actually ran for 4 years had a HV in it. I also didn't like the oil pressure readings I was getting on the one build that a standard pump in it. It was 30-40 lbs cold idle. Of course that coulda been just because it was built wrong since it did grenade itself. :cry:
That makes sense;) I think mondello sells hi pressure pumps. Its been a few years since I have looked into olds parts......
Taylorman
06-26-2006, 01:11 PM
That makes sense;) I think mondello sells hi pressure pumps. Its been a few years since I have looked into olds parts......
My opinion is if you have a fully oil restricted motor you should run a hv pump. The oil kits mondello's sell comes with a hv oil pump. While were on the subject, don't call or buy from Mondello, theres many other places that will help you much more than Mondilldo. Call John at www.rocketracingperformance.com. Super helpful. My motor has oil restrictors in the mains, lifter bores, 8 qt pan, hv oil pump and no problems. Rule of thumb is 10 psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpms and your fine. Oil volume lubricates the engine, pressure is a factor of restriction in the motor. Oh, also, plug your oil bypass in the oil filter mount.
396_WAYS_TO_SPIT
06-26-2006, 02:38 PM
My opinion is if you have a fully oil restricted motor you should run a hv pump. The oil kits mondello's sell comes with a hv oil pump. While were on the subject, don't call or buy from Mondello, theres many other places that will help you much more than Mondilldo. Call John at www.rocketracingperformance.com. Super helpful. My motor has oil restrictors in the mains, lifter bores, 8 qt pan, hv oil pump and no problems. Rule of thumb is 10 psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpms and your fine. Oil volume lubricates the engine, pressure is a factor of restriction in the motor. Oh, also, plug your oil bypass in the oil filter mount.
Thats understandable;) I only had oil restricted pushrods in my olds and it never had any problems back in the day.I never bought parts from joe because he was overpriced!!! :yuk:
dunerking
06-26-2006, 04:09 PM
396,thanks for the info!
myoung
06-28-2006, 06:38 PM
Well?
Get the gauge to work?
Well?
Get the gauge to work?
Sorry Mike, kinda slackin. Been dog tired with the office move out in this heat. I'll get on it tonight so I can get that dial back to ya and pick up that tire.
OK, finally made it out the garage today. According the the ol' dial. I've only got .004 of crank movement. Time to take the crank back to the grinder?
Ok, pistons are all rung and ready to go in. The crank will head over to the machine shop tomorrow for the extra thrust clearance unless I'm told otherwise.
myoung
07-04-2006, 11:02 AM
Rung?
myoung
07-04-2006, 11:02 AM
:crossx:
Rung?
Rang? Ringed? Runged? Ring-a-ding-dingyed...
DelawareDave
07-04-2006, 05:00 PM
OK, finally made it out the garage today. According the the ol' dial. I've only got .004 of crank movement. Time to take the crank back to the grinder?
Suggestion from a dumb-a** that don't know nuthin' bout motors: I guess you are checking end play with the main bearing caps torqued? Before you send the crank to be ground, loosen the #3 main cap bolts, but DO NOT remove the cap. Leave it seated in the index. While the bolts are snug tight, smack both ends of the crank a couple times with your rubber mallet. Retorque the bolts, and recheck end play.
Not trying to contradict anyone, but the purpose of whacking the ends of the crank, is to align the thrust bearing faces. If the cap bolts are torqued first, how would this happen? The cap isn't supposed to move when the bolts are torqued.
So humor me, and give it a shot. What have you got to lose?
Dave, thanks for the hint, it was worth a try.
I loosend the #3 cap and just seated the bolts on the cap. Whack whack on both ends a few times. Check the movement- .006 to .007. Retorqed and checked again. .004 :cry:
DelawareDave
07-06-2006, 02:07 AM
Dave, thanks for the hint, it was worth a try.
I loosend the #3 cap and just seated the bolts on the cap. Whack whack on both ends a few times. Check the movement- .006 to .007. Retorqed and checked again. .004 :cry:
Remove the cap and check for foreign material or a small burr on the mating surface of the block and cap. Take a fine file and go across the surfaces LIGHTLY. You aren't trying to remove anything but a surface imperfection. Also make sure no burrs or nicks under the bearing shells. Nicks will raise the material surrounding it slightly, possibly changing clearances.
DelawareDave
07-06-2006, 02:10 AM
And FYI- The correct spec for crankshaft end play is .004-.010". You may be at the tight end of the spec.
malcolm
07-06-2006, 07:32 AM
I wondered when someone was going to post the specs. ;) That's what mine had. It's running fine.
I wondered when someone was going to post the specs. ;) That's what mine had. It's running fine.
you had .004 when you assembled yours? I'm tempted to just move on get the sucka put together.
malcolm
07-06-2006, 11:32 AM
Yep, I was worried about it too, till I looked up the specs. ;)
DelawareDave
07-06-2006, 12:03 PM
you had .004 when you assembled yours? I'm tempted to just move on get the sucka put together.
I also found specs published elsewhere of .004-.008". If you push/pry the crank to the back, set your dial indicator @ 0.00", then push/pry it forward, and indicator shows .004-.010", then you are good to go.
I also found specs published elsewhere of .004-.008". If you push/pry the crank to the back, set your dial indicator @ 0.00", then push/pry it forward, and indicator shows .004-.010", then you are good to go.
Yeah, thats exactly what I did and got just .004. I'm just a little gun shy as I think I'd set the boat on fire if this motor fails too! :220v:
I think I'm just gonna go ahead and move on and pop the pistons in tonight.
DelawareDave
07-06-2006, 12:57 PM
Yeah, thats exactly what I did and got just .004. I'm just a little gun shy as I think I'd set the boat on fire if this motor fails too! :220v:
I think I'm just gonna go ahead and move on and pop the pistons in tonight.
If you have engines going south, try to determine what went wrong, and correct it on the next one you build. Experience is a good teaching tool, but it can also be an expensive one, as well.
later
07-06-2006, 01:35 PM
GET RID OF IT.I had a mondello kit etc.Blew that 455 9 times.Beleived in 455,but then 460 ford and then 454.Both wonderful engines.GET RID OF IT.Bad designed engines. :mad:
Pistons going in. Any hints, tips, or must do's? Now would be the time. :rollside:
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4554th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4554.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4555th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4555.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4556th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4556.jpg)
Anyways, new Hot Boat mag just came in the mail so time to take a break.
myoung
07-08-2006, 01:54 PM
Pistons going in. Any hints, tips, or must do's? Now would be the time. :rollside:
You mean besides get rid of it?
:rolleyes:
myoung
07-08-2006, 01:57 PM
Make sure you crank up the piston return spring pressure to 110 instead of 100. Works way better with those high flow muffler bearings you picked up. :rollside:
Make sure you crank up the piston return spring pressure to 110 instead of 100. Works way better with those high flow muffler bearings you picked up. :rollside:
BASTARD! :crossx:
Pistons are in. Rods torqued to 42lbs. Went front to back 1-8 in order. If that matters. Oil pump is on. Torqued to 35lbs with Loctite. There no gasket between the block and the pump right?
Oldsquirt
07-08-2006, 05:36 PM
Correct, no gasket.
Before going too much further, rotate the crank and check for any interference with the oil pump. Had one once that just barely got kissed by the crank throw.
Correct, no gasket.
Before going too much further, rotate the crank and check for any interference with the oil pump. Had one once that just barely got kissed by the crank throw.
Wow. You're not kidding. I never noticed before but when I rotated the crank around, the nut on the #8 cylinder clears the pump.... by about a 1/4 inch.
Cam and timing gear is in. Mike (myoung) came over to lend a hand. While he was taking the heads apart so we could clean them out, we noticed the valve guides are toast. So the heads will be on their way to the machine shop this morning. :rolleyes:
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4557th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4557.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4558th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4558.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4559th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/4559.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45510th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45510.jpg)
DelawareDave
07-10-2006, 06:56 AM
That looks like a CalComp plotter (or vinyl cutter) behind the timing chain pic.
That looks like a CalComp plotter (or vinyl cutter) behind the timing chain pic.
It is actually. I got it free from a guy and was/am going to convert it to cut vinyl if I can. Know anything about it?
DelawareDave
07-10-2006, 07:47 AM
Not that particular machine. I have seen the vinyl cutters by calcomp, but don't know if parts are available.
I just recognized it as I use similar plotters at work. I got a plotter from my old boss for free. Did a little fix up to it (no cost cleaning) and sold it for $1400.
Ok, had to back burner this project for a bit. Finally got back on it the past week. Here's some pics of the new 4 point set up. Makes getting the motor in and out a hell of alot easier. Good thing I still have the old Olds 350 for mock up.
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45511th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45511.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45512th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45512.jpg)
DelawareDave
09-15-2006, 02:17 AM
Yeah it does make it easier to use a bare block to set things up. I have a spare 455 block and 4 point mount set I'm going to use to set mine up, if I ever get around to working on it again!
More pics. I got the motor all put together now. Got the heads back a while ago. Basic 3 angle valve job. New guides, viton seals, and they replaced 3 burned up exhaust valves. Oiled up the threads and torqued them on.
The Torker intake was fun. The inside of the outer runners are a real biatch to get bolts in. Ended up using Allen heads which worked out nice. Also forgot to take pics of the exhaust cross-over plugs I got from Summit. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+115+319341&D=319341 I would have had these welded in but I didn't think of it until the came heads back from the machine shop. I ended up JB welding them in so we'll see how that works out.
Got some new push rods and just stuck with the pedestal mount rockers. Really wanted to step up to full roller rockers but I'm all tapped out for now $$$. Probably get a set of sheet metal valve covers some day too.
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45513th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45513.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45514th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45514.jpg)
southwind racer
09-17-2006, 10:09 PM
Hell yeah!!! Another 455 build. I just had mine rebuilt. Had the same problem with the torquer manifold...
Next time I'm going to do it myself...but I didn't have time and wanted back on the water.
If you could get everything all dialed in by October you should go to FC6!
Ok, hoisted the motor in the other day and got her broken in. Went about 20 min of break in at 2000 rpm with 8 quarts of Rotella 15w40 and a bottle of Crane break in lube. She ran real good and sounded healthy until I got the RPM's down to try to set the timing. My 715 Holley was spewing fuel from one primary and one secondary venturi. Took it apart and blew it out but still having problems with the one secondary. Hopefully it wasn't WASHING down the cylinders while I was breaking it in. Anyways, my buddy came over with a 750 DP so we slapped that on and all was good. Fires right up. I couldn't find any time to get the boat out to a local lake for more break in so I guess we'll have to do that out at the river/Mojave this weekend. My new 4-point/cheesy "rail" system is pretty bitchen. WAAAAAY better then the 3 point mounts. After break in all I had to do was take out 4 bolts on the front 2 feet and the six holding the rear plate to the motor and slide the motor foward to put the drive shaft in. Then, just slide it back into place. Aligning the splines was way easier. Anyways.... more pics.
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45515th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45515.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45516th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45516.jpg)
n8dawg
09-20-2006, 09:47 AM
Ok, had to back burner this project for a bit. Finally got back on it the past week. Here's some pics of the new 4 point set up. Makes getting the motor in and out a hell of alot easier. Good thing I still have the old Olds 350 for mock up.
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45511th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45511.jpg)
http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45512th.jpg (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/45512.jpg)
Hey I remember thoughs motor mounts!!! Glad to see them getting put to good use.
Good thread!
warpt
09-20-2006, 07:15 PM
hey southwind racer i noticed you are from chino where did you get your motor rebuilt and how much if you mind me asking.
thanks
southwind racer
09-21-2006, 12:08 AM
hey southwind racer i noticed you are from chino where did you get your motor rebuilt and how much if you mind me asking.
thanks
I actually shipped the case and crank to Mondello for blue printing and machine work. Everything I bought new from them, race quality. Mondello has specialized in Olds race engines forever now. They're located in Paso Robles. After all the parts add and shipping and blah blah blah I spent around $9000. Just to have Mondello do the build I think they wanted $2000 not including parts.
If I had to do it over again I would have built it myself with the shop manual. If you do use an engine shop, you should use someone that builds OLDS alot!! From what I learned, there are alot of tricks you have to perform for these engines to run hard. A BBC builder is not necessarily going to have the knowledge to build a hard running OLDS. I would definately recommend Mondello's shop manual for building them at www.mondellotwister.com ... it details all the tricks to do.
For all that don't care about complaints on Vendors, skip the rest. However I swore I would tell anyone who cared about my bad experience with the build.
I originally was going to get the case blue printed and the crank balanced and machine and have them ship the rest of the parts back to me balanced and ready for assembly. If I would have installed them without first checking all the clearances, I would have blow my motor.
I had quite a few problems with the parts they shipped back that delayed my build to about a week before my trip. I detailed my problems to the owner of the parts sent. This is an exact copy of what I sent him:
Initial Problems
1. The pins that connect the pistons and the connecting rods where not fitted to the connecting rods. We went to machine shop to have them opened up and matched to the connecting rods. IThe pins wouldn't even fit in before)
2. We had 13 thousands (way too big!!) of clearance between the connecting rod and the crank after torqued. Called Robert asking if we needed larger bearings and was told that couldnt be the case.
3. We had 6 thousands of clearance on the crank and engine block. We were meant to have 3.
4. We were not shipped the correct oil pan
5. We were not shipped the correct intake manifold
6. We were not shipped the lifters
7. We were not shipped a packing slip or receipt
At first they didn't believe me. They requested I bring back all the parts so they could check. I drove them back myself (8 hour round trip) to have them worked on. At this point my vacation was in a week, I couldn't reschedule. After they reaffirmed I was correct and these tollerances where off, I requested they build the motor at a discounted price to ensure I could make my trip and for all my inconvience. I had never built a Big Block motor before (only VW's for the sand rail) and was going to go slow with the help of my buddies, ***boat and a tech manual I bought just for Olds. In the end the owner of Mondello Twister told me to take a flying leep and Robert (the sales rep, great guy) ended up taking some personal time to help build the motor for a cheaper price than normal, the money still going to Mondello.
I still haven't got to use the motor more than 30 minutes on the water because of my hull problems. I don't know how strong it will run yet, but if something where to go wrong I doubt Mondello would back their work.
WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Finally..... :)
Vid 1 (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/roost2.avi)
Vid 2 (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/roost4.avi)
El Prosecutor
10-12-2006, 08:43 PM
WOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Finally..... :)
Vid 1 (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/roost2.avi)
Vid 2 (http://www.blazerclub.com/pics/roost4.avi)
Looks like it worked out pretty good! How about a little more detailed report on the results?
malcolm
10-12-2006, 09:15 PM
Was it just me or was there no sound on those vids?
Looks good.
Thanks for the kind words guys. :)
Had to change the carb before getting her broken in on the trailer. For some reason my 715 was pouring fuel from on the secondary venturis. So I got a hold of a 750 Holley with mechanicals. Anyways, put about an hour on the motor on the trailer with some 15W40 Rotello. Had about 70lbs of oil pressure at idle and 40lbs at 2000RPM after it'd warmed up a bit.
Took the boat out to the Avi, launched it and just cruised nice and easy up river just in case something went wrong. Then we'd cruise back down to the Avi and start over again. Did that for about another hour before I really started to get on it. Finally after working my up to WOT here's the results:
I don't know if I mentioned it before but I switched the B impeller to an MPD prepped (stage 1) AMT A+. Going up river, against the wind, 2 people, full 40 gal. of gas, a cooler, and some skis at WOT I'm hitting 4800-4900RPM at 47MPH. Down river was 53MPH. All this in a pretty heavy 77 21' daycruiser. So I was happy with it. It was hard to tell exactly what RPM I was hitting. I need to get a better tach and move it a bit closer to the left. The tach I have now is kinda faded and now that needle goes that far to the right it's kinda hard to read at that angle. The Olds 350 on ever peaked at around 4000RPM!
So anyways, it kicked ass most of the weekend. I did notice that after a fairly long run (30 minutes?) at about 3700RPM or so the oil pressure would drop. On the longest run, it went down to about 15lbs. So either the oil is really heating up or its all sitting in the heads? I did notice quite a bit of oil draining from the rear valve cover breather. I've got those common Hardin valve covers with the hole in the same place so that one breather ends up towards the front and one in the rear with push in K&N breathers. So mass of oil must still be pooling in the back of the covers. Gonna try a set of sheetmetal tall valve cover or tall breathers (or both).
Now for the bad news. Coming back up river towards the Avi we were cruising at about 42-4300RPM. You know, engine purring, wife smiling, diverter up, big roost going (which was the first time I got to use my diverter since I bought it 2 years ago, so yeah that was way cool). Then we came up on some guys who were doing the same and I just HAD to run with the big dogs :rolleyes: By the time I got back in to the Avi lagoon and started to idle in I looked at the oil pressure and it was at about 10lbs or slightly below. Then it sputtered and stalled. Doh. But, it fired right back up after I let it cool for a bit. No rod knock or other evil sounds and good oil pressure again (close to 40lbs.) We did notice a funky noise coming from the rear right before we pulled in. After a while I figured it must have coming from the pump. Definately not a motor sound. Maybe a rear shaft bearing that started to seize?
Anyways, I pulled the motor out the other day. I'll be pulling the pan probably today or tomorrow to get a look. Maybe pull a cap or two. Gonna pull the bowl first and get a look at that bearing.
El Prosecutor
10-13-2006, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the kind words guys. :)
Had to change the carb before getting her broken in on the trailer. For some reason my 715 was pouring fuel from on the secondary venturis. So I got a hold of a 750 Holley with mechanicals. Anyways, put about an hour on the motor on the trailer with some 15W40 Rotello. Had about 70lbs of oil pressure at idle and 40lbs at 2000RPM after it'd warmed up a bit.
Took the boat out to the Avi, launched it and just cruised nice and easy up river just in case something went wrong. Then we'd cruise back down to the Avi and start over again. Did that for about another hour before I really started to get on it. Finally after working my up to WOT here's the results:
I don't know if I mentioned it before but I switched the B impeller to an MPD prepped (stage 1) AMT A+. Going up river, against the wind, 2 people, full 40 gal. of gas, a cooler, and some skis at WOT I'm hitting 4800-4900RPM at 47MPH. Down river was 53MPH. All this in a pretty heavy 77 21' daycruiser. So I was happy with it. It was hard to tell exactly what RPM I was hitting. I need to get a better tach and move it a bit closer to the left. The tach I have now is kinda faded and now that needle goes that far to the right it's kinda hard to read at that angle. The Olds 350 on ever peaked at around 4000RPM!
So anyways, it kicked ass most of the weekend. I did notice that after a fairly long run (30 minutes?) at about 3700RPM or so the oil pressure would drop. On the longest run, it went down to about 15lbs. So either the oil is really heating up or its all sitting in the heads? I did notice quite a bit of oil draining from the rear valve cover breather. I've got those common Hardin valve covers with the hole in the same place so that one breather ends up towards the front and one in the rear with push in K&N breathers. So mass of oil must still be pooling in the back of the covers. Gonna try a set of sheetmetal tall valve cover or tall breathers (or both).
Now for the bad news. Coming back up river towards the Avi we were cruising at about 42-4300RPM. You know, engine purring, wife smiling, diverter up, big roost going (which was the first time I got to use my diverter since I bought it 2 years ago, so yeah that was way cool). Then we came up on some guys who were doing the same and I just HAD to run with the big dogs :rolleyes: By the time I got back in to the Avi lagoon and started to idle in I looked at the oil pressure and it was at about 10lbs or slightly below. Then it sputtered and stalled. Doh. But, it fired right back up after I let it cool for a bit. No rod knock or other evil sounds and good oil pressure again (close to 40lbs.) We did notice a funky noise coming from the rear right before we pulled in. After a while I figured it must have coming from the pump. Definately not a motor sound. Maybe a rear shaft bearing that started to seize?
Anyways, I pulled the motor out the other day. I'll be pulling the pan probably today or tomorrow to get a look. Maybe pull a cap or two. Gonna pull the bowl first and get a look at that bearing.
Sounds mostly great, but Yikes! on the noise - when was the last time you greased the thrust bearing on the pump??
whiskey & water
10-14-2006, 07:51 AM
Hey flip what did your main and rod journal measure out to and what did it take to get .003 clearance in your mains and .0025 in your rods. Basically the bearings to what your crank was machine to or did you go with a .001 more bearing
Thank Joe
thatguy
10-14-2006, 09:12 AM
Got in on this kind of late, but have seen your thrust problem many times as a machinist for over 10 years. Maybe you already figured it out. My bet is that the main cap (thrust) was ground at an angle. When it was align-honed. This always shows itself when your thrust clearance changes as the cap is tourqed. The cap "tilts" on the mating surface and loads the "top" on front and the "bottom" on back, or vise-versa. Effectively decreasing thrust clearance and unevenly oiling and loading thrust surface.
As far as importance, CRUCIAL!! If crank can not "float" ALL bearing surfaces, including rods, timing gear & chain can be compromised, depending on your rod side clearance. It would be an extereme condition to see that. However, Improper alignment of cam and crank bores can also cause one or the other to "walk" in the block and lead to catostrauphic failure of lower end. You mentioned you lost 2 bottom ends already. Caliper the distance from rear main bearing surface to rear cam bearing surface, Then compare it to the front measurement. Some blocks, ( as well as any component) ARE lemons. That is why class legal racers comb through piles and piles of castings to get the ones they want.
The proper way to install your thrust cap is as was mentioned by some other guys earlier. SNUG all caps down, "Tap" the crank forward AND back and check motion, not clearance ( just make sure it moves back and forth) TOURQE other caps (not thrust) from inside out, this keeps your crank from from doing a mini "wheelie" in the saddles. I turn the crank by hand after I torque each cap just to see if its binding. Then check thrust clearance. Torque thrust and check clearance. Crank should have free movement back and forth. May need a small pry to move it, but nothing more than a fair size screwdriver. Be aware that it is not uncommon to have to have all caps tight before crank turns freely in blocks that have been line-honed. A thrust cap can sometimes be "worked" as you torque it to maintain clearance.
Also you mention a noise from jet thrust? It possible and very likley to cook your crankshaft if jet thrust is gone. You will be pushing your crank forward in the block. (Especially if splin shaft is "compressed" at installation). Look for timing chain rub in timing cover.Hope i have been of some help.
myoung
10-15-2006, 12:51 PM
Wow, that's just the kind of info we were looking for back when we were staring at the bearings wondering 'How the hell???'. The only thing that is really confusing is the fact he lost three bottom ends on two different blocks with what may be three different reasons. The last one with the 455, however, sounds like your solution could fit.
The first one with the 350 appears to have been caused by a piece of metal that was somehow caught in the oiling system and worked it's way into the crank bearing. We found the piece of metal and saw where it fit into the damage on the bearing, it seemed the logical answer.
The second was with the same 350 as the first and is the biggest mystery. It may have been caused by the same problem as the 455, but we didn't notice it. We thought maybe it was still more crap in the oiling system that wouldn't clean out during the rebuild, but this time the bearing were just burned up not gouged by any pieces of metal like the first time. Then we thought possibly there was something done wrong with the pump rebuild that was done prior to all the bottom ends going away, but that didn't really make sense. In the end we never found a reason we could live with on this one.
The third was the 455 he bought to replace the 350. It was supposedly rebuilt a while back for a boat and was removed due to a piston that didn't seat and kept blowing smoke. Unfortunately, even though they deny it, it was left outside at some point and had water damage at crank level. All that was done was a crank grind with new bearings and a cylinder hone with new rings, that should have brought it back to life since it was a rebuilt engine. But once again, a few minutes on the water and bye-bye crank. This time we noticed the thrust wear and took steps to prevent it happening again. We just couldn't figure out why it happened. Now I'm wondering how common this is and whether the rebuilds on the 350 and the 455 could have caused the situation you described? :idea:
At least this last rebuild was done with considerable more focus on setting the crank, and it appears it may have paid off. We'll see when Anthony pulls some caps.
Got in on this kind of late, but have seen your thrust problem many times as a machinist for over 10 years. Maybe you already figured it out. My bet is that the main cap (thrust) was ground at an angle. When it was align-honed. This always shows itself when your thrust clearance changes as the cap is tourqed. The cap "tilts" on the mating surface and loads the "top" on front and the "bottom" on back, or vise-versa. Effectively decreasing thrust clearance and unevenly oiling and loading thrust surface.
As far as importance, CRUCIAL!! If crank can not "float" ALL bearing surfaces, including rods, timing gear & chain can be compromised, depending on your rod side clearance. It would be an extereme condition to see that. However, Improper alignment of cam and crank bores can also cause one or the other to "walk" in the block and lead to catostrauphic failure of lower end. You mentioned you lost 2 bottom ends already. Caliper the distance from rear main bearing surface to rear cam bearing surface, Then compare it to the front measurement. Some blocks, ( as well as any component) ARE lemons. That is why class legal racers comb through piles and piles of castings to get the ones they want.
The proper way to install your thrust cap is as was mentioned by some other guys earlier. SNUG all caps down, "Tap" the crank forward AND back and check motion, not clearance ( just make sure it moves back and forth) TOURQE other caps (not thrust) from inside out, this keeps your crank from from doing a mini "wheelie" in the saddles. I turn the crank by hand after I torque each cap just to see if its binding. Then check thrust clearance. Torque thrust and check clearance. Crank should have free movement back and forth. May need a small pry to move it, but nothing more than a fair size screwdriver. Be aware that it is not uncommon to have to have all caps tight before crank turns freely in blocks that have been line-honed. A thrust cap can sometimes be "worked" as you torque it to maintain clearance.
Also you mention a noise from jet thrust? It possible and very likley to cook your crankshaft if jet thrust is gone. You will be pushing your crank forward in the block. (Especially if splin shaft is "compressed" at installation). Look for timing chain rub in timing cover.Hope i have been of some help.
thatguy
10-15-2006, 01:56 PM
Different motors, OK, here goes. Is your oil pan front or rear sump? Does it have doors or baffles in it? Rapid acceleration or deceleration WILL cause oil pump cavitation and loss of oil supply. It happens very fast and recovers not so fast. You can watch for it on your guage, but generally your hands, and eyes, are kind of busy right then! Have your buddy focus on the guage (oil psi) and DO NOT take his eyes off it as you drive the boat aggressivley. Rear sump pans starve on deceleration, front sumps starve on acceleration (worse). It only happens for a few seconds or maybe a little more. This is the #1 reason that racers in the very quick classes, car and boat, use dry sump systems. (Plus they cool)
I had a pro-gas Chevy II with a 500 incher that would cook the crank after 7-8 passes like clock work. Had a milidon pan with all the gizmos. I put on a pan that Shafiroff had designed, No more troubles. (At least with that problem!) It was starving the engine after the lights when I slowed rapidly.
Just a shot in the dark, but you would be amazed how the little things kill.
You don't need a spendy dry sump, just a well engineered pan and pick-up if this is a problem.
:)
myoung
10-15-2006, 02:43 PM
Up until this last rebuild he was running a rear sump, stock pan due to three point mounts. It had served him well when he first got the boat with the 350 in it and it was never thought twice about. When the bottom ends started going away, the pan deal was brought up in his searches here on ***boat(we were new to the Olds oiling issues). Due to budget constraints, he did what he could to improve the oiling system, but a bigger pan and four point mounts weren't going to happen at the time. He now has a Milodon jet pan and four point mounts along with the drainbacks and restrictors and other mods that were done before the last bottom end went away. Hopefully now he has enough 'fixes' to buy him some play time, well, you know, as long as he can keep his foot out of it. LOL
The funny thing is now, with all the work I've done helping him, it made me want a boat. Go figure. :rollside:
Different motors, OK, here goes. Is your oil pan front or rear sump? Does it have doors or baffles in it? Rapid acceleration or deceleration WILL cause oil pump cavitation and loss of oil supply. It happens very fast and recovers not so fast. You can watch for it on your guage, but generally your hands, and eyes, are kind of busy right then! Have your buddy focus on the guage (oil psi) and DO NOT take his eyes off it as you drive the boat aggressivley. Rear sump pans starve on deceleration, front sumps starve on acceleration (worse). It only happens for a few seconds or maybe a little more. This is the #1 reason that racers in the very quick classes, car and boat, use dry sump systems. (Plus they cool)
I had a pro-gas Chevy II with a 500 incher that would cook the crank after 7-8 passes like clock work. Had a milidon pan with all the gizmos. I put on a pan that Shafiroff had designed, No more troubles. (At least with that problem!) It was starving the engine after the lights when I slowed rapidly.
Just a shot in the dark, but you would be amazed how the little things kill.
You don't need a spendy dry sump, just a well engineered pan and pick-up if this is a problem.
:)
Jetaholic
11-08-2006, 12:39 AM
Was waiting to hear the update on this thread as to what Flip found in the motor as well as the pump. Flip, u out there?
Jon
Glencoe MiniDay
11-08-2006, 04:54 PM
There is a place called Smith Brothers pushrods In Here in Bend Oregon That makes the very pushrods for mondello at a little better cost.
I paid 112.40 for the same rods the same rods that mondello sells for 200.00
They Have an 800 number and it is 1-800-367-1533
myoung
11-08-2006, 08:03 PM
Yo dude, stop spankin it and respond to your thread. :hammerhea
Well, I kinda dropped the ball on this thread. When I got back from the Avi where I shot those videos in Sept. I pretty much just pulled the motor out, put her on the stand and there she sits. I got laid off shortly after and now that things with the new job are settling down I can get back to work.
My question is this. Can I pull the mains one at a time and get a look at the bearings then retorque it back on then do the next?
Jetaholic
02-01-2007, 01:45 PM
Well, I kinda dropped the ball on this thread. When I got back from the Avi where I shot those videos in Sept. I pretty much just pulled the motor out, put her on the stand and there she sits. I got laid off shortly after and now that things with the new job are settling down I can get back to work.
My question is this. Can I pull the mains one at a time and get a look at the bearings then retorque it back on then do the next?
If you do that you'll only get a look at half of the bearing. I would much rather just pull the crank and check all of the bearings.
malcolm
02-01-2007, 07:29 PM
You'll be checking the load side though, if it's chewed up you can bet the upper is too. ;)
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