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Backfire
02-04-2002, 04:03 PM
Lets review: It's not disputed that HTM had been testing the death boat to 149 miles-per-hour on Wednesday 1/9/02 at Castaic, a 35mph regulated lake, and "ran out of prop", hitting the rev limiter at over 7000rpm. Returning for testing on friday, four people, not wearing lifeline jackets or helmets, departed in the same boat with only one seat, presumably with steeper props, and did not return. The boat apparently didn't have the structural integrity to contain an engine when a prop most likely stopped turning!
I believe that this case IS the boating industry's worst nightmare brought to reality! Think about it: There is four guys dead whose families are going to want to be compensated by insurers for their loss. It's entirely likely that the insurers will claim that the circumstances of the accident fall outside of what risks they agreed to insure due to negligence, recklessness, and extreme abuse of the speed limit. What makes this particularly awful for the industry is that it was HTM's accident, and the whole boatbuilding and testing process is likely to be put on trial. Anybody that builds boats better be able to show off a responsible program and be willing to label the HTM guys as renegades, or suffer the consequences!

FastCats
02-04-2002, 05:37 PM
What consequences? Higher Insurance premiums, most of us already have that. Our premiums are already over 50k a year! Regulations on inland lakes, maybe, Castaic already has that with the speed limit and Steve was not the only guy exceeding that on a regular basis.
I have read your post and understand what you are saying, and I appreciate freedom of speach, I mean no disrespect, but I disagree with some points and will probably be thrown to the dogs for this, but I feel that I must.
It will take a series of surveyors and structural engineers to determine if the craft was structurally sound. I'm still not sure if they will ever reach an accurate answer, based on the accounts of what happened and reports on the hulls shape when it was recovered. Those that have seen it have described it as the most violent that they had ever seen and this person that I was in contact with has seen quite a few crashes.
I personally do not think that the other builders will be put on trial or even be made to make changes in their testing processes. We test at high speed as well and I personally have spoken with Steve numerous times about his testing and findings. We have run some serious numbers in our 31 footer recently and yes there are risk involved every time that we go out. But let's face it, Steve believed as I do that speed sells, I know that it is not a determining factor in a purchase, but potential buyers do like to know that a boat is capable and the only way to know accurately is to test. We all know that this is true or all automobiles would have limiters placed on them.
We have implemented what we think to be a responsible program, but it has limitations. We as builders can not go out with the new owners every time that they go out, we can't stop them from putting back a few cold ones and we CAN'T give them common sense pills prior to their departure. If I could make those common sense pills, I would not be in the boat business.
I WILL NOT label the HTM guys as renegades or I would have to do the same for ourselves along with every other boatbuilder in this industry. Formula is building cruisers with HP500's, SeaRay test for speed, Reggie test as well, the great chefs of the world taste test. If the Titanic would have been tested more before it's final departure, maybe things would be different there as well.
I do agree with you that there might be other precautions taken, but Steve was a good driver, hands down! There's not many that I will ride with at speed, but he was capable as was Dale Earnhart, and drivers of other sports, and still, accidents occur.
We as a manufacturer try to learn every time we go out and try to learn from others as well. Here's what we have learned so far:
Use common sense, don't be a show off, if your'e gonna run at high speed... suit up. Don't do it at all if youv'e been drinking, use common sense, be aware of your surroundings, and USE COMMON SENSE!
Backfire, this is not intended to be pointed at you and again I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, It's just that Steve was a good guy and I for one do not want see him or his company blamed for anything that may happen to any of us in the future.
Maybe I needed to vent a little, I have been very quiet during all of the speculation that has gone on here. My and Mrs. FastCats thought, prayers and hopes go out to the families involved and to the family of HTM owners.
Okay, Okay my neck is on the chopping block, go ahead! As Dick Danger says "FastCats Out"
[This message has been edited by FastCats (edited February 04, 2002).]

JETBOAT BRIAN
02-04-2002, 06:51 PM
Put my neck in there with yours Fastcats ....you are 100% correct in my opinion !

waterbum
02-04-2002, 07:16 PM
What he said....I like the way you think Scott.

sea buddy
02-04-2002, 09:13 PM
Can this high of speed testing be done in salt water, ocean water were the speed is not limited? This is where some of the brands mentioned go.
I know it is a pain to clean up after but you also gain another whole market. So extra cleaning offset by more business.
There is some concern that this may lead to clamping down on everyone (boat owners) on all lakes, insurance for everyone, and a bad rep for all fast boaters.
This is the only image the public has gotten of boating on their TV recently.
Anyone trying to get awarness of a broader view of boating out to the 7,000,000 masses?
Are we going into the Boat Show with this in everyone's MOMS mind?
Mom's do have alot of veto power of family investments for family activities.
Where is the SCMA on this image stuff?
I'm not right, but who is?

Hustler
02-04-2002, 09:22 PM
Scott, that was very well put and probably one of the best post I've seen regarding this incident, Thank You
Backfire, I dont understand why it is that even with these men gone that people must still attack HTM for one reason or another.
Hustler

jeff-in-ky
02-05-2002, 04:28 AM
FastCats- I agree with your views 100%, while those speeds would not be my cup of tea, and I will probably never own a large cat, I am a true believer in "to each his own".
JB

FastCats
02-05-2002, 07:23 AM
Hi Seabuddy,
You bet! As the name of our company implies, we do most all of our testing in salt water in the bay nearby. That however is not available to all mfgs. But it must go on, or the consumer does not get their monies worth. We believe that it gives us an edge in giving the consumer a boat that will handle the rough stuff as well as the smooth, so they have to be built tougher. There is an extra cost in doing this and it is not passed on to the consumer, so that we can remain competitive in pricing. I wished that the extra cleaning meant extra business, but it sure makes us feel better!
Moms have an enormous amount of veto power as Mrs. FastCats will tell you and has taught me, we are seeing more amenities geared toward the ladies and safety in general in our boats as a result of her input. I'm very thankful that she is in sales right beside me, at the same time she loves making a triple digit run with me at times,(her driving of coarse, she's constantly telling me where to go!) but they are few and far between these days as we both realize that accidents do happen and we want to have a parent for the girls of ours, and it is always in a combination that has been tested many times.
You are correct in many points, I know that I am not right completely in my views and testing...etc. Far from it! But we are giving it the old college try as the HTM guys do! BTW, I hear that they are continuing on and that is the best news that I have heard lately, Best of luck to those guys! It's really a tough job, this boating business!
The boating industry has proven for us at least to be strong this season as sales are very good. I think that the moms that you spoke of would rather have a vacation here at home and more often and a boat can afford that as opposed to standing in the lines at the airport or going abroad on a cruise ship.
As Pres. Bush has said since Sept 11, education is key, be aware of your surroundings, use common sense. Planes crash often, yet we still fly. Automobiles have a worse rep, yet the horses are still in pastures.
ENJOY BOATING! Use common sense, This is the last great frontier where you can still have big power in something, loud if you want it (it's a guy thing) and have fellowship with those that enjoy the same. Auto racers don't get to include their children in what they love except as an onlooker, yet in boating they can ride in the same vehicle and help clean it, etc... Hopefully we can all learn from some of this. I know that I am!
Good Post Sea Buddy!

HavasuDreamin'
02-05-2002, 08:09 AM
Fast Cats, I agree with you 100%! Great posts on this topic. With regard to the HTM accident, everyone is looking to point the finger or place the blame on someone or something which I don't agree with. This is a tragic accident, no doubt and my heart goes out to all involved.
Lets face it, anytime you are running 100+ mph in a boat, it is dangerous. Heck it is dangerous in a car! Does this mean we shouldn't run hard or enjoy our HI-PO toys? NO. Hot Boaters accept the danger that is inevitable for the love of the sport. Unfortunately every once in a while, something goes wrong and accidents occur. This is an accepted risk of the sport. Doesn't mean hot boaters should quit being hot boaters or top flight manufactures such as A.O. should stop pushing the envelope. It just means that we all need to learn from this tragedy and be as safe as we can given the inherit dangers of the sport. First and foremost, is common sense. USE COMMON SENSE and enjoy your hobby!

Essex502
02-05-2002, 02:46 PM
While I agree with some of the points on all of the posters I do have to say a couple of things, again in my opinion only:
1) The effect on the boating industry might be HUGE premium increases for the manufacturers' business insurance. Liability insurance alone might put you out of business unless you want to run a business without having insurance.
2) I personally don't think it responsible for the gentlemen to be on the lake that day without seats IF they indeed did NOT have seats (as reported here) AND they were running the speeds that have reported.
3) Yes, testing is required to improve any product but when you test the extremes, all safety equipment that CAN be applied SHOULD be applied. I don't know - and maybe nobody else does either - if that happened.
4) Many high speed and high risk endeavors such as boating and auto racing are VERY dangerous. The maunfacturers in many sports do extensive simulation and analysis work (what I do for a living) on the structural integrity of the vehicle/vessel. The soon to be attempt on the world speed record on water by Nigel MacKight and the Quicksilver team has done enormous simulation since they will not be able to test their boat until it tries to set the record. This same simulation and computer modeling is done by every major manufaturer of vehicles in the world. I may be wrong but I bet that few if any of our custom builders do this type of simulation. Strange things happen at extreme limits of performance.
see http://www.quicksilver-wsr.co.uk/site/intro_main.htm
My thoughts for what they're worth.

Essex502
02-05-2002, 02:58 PM
Another quick thought...
On the 11:00 news you always here about kids "drag racing" that hit someone or something and were killed. In fact, the media is incorrect and should have said "street racing" but the media is stupid and can't distinguish the difference. Hence, the legitimate drag racing community gets a black eye. This will happen, I think, with the HTM crash as well. People will see the news reports and incorrectly associate all boaters with such a high speed accident. Sorta' like saying all jetskiers are jerks because some jump wakes and do other rude and unsafe things. No everyone is the same but I think Backfire's point is some boating business owners will have to PUBLICLY 'distance' themselves from the extreme testing.
Just another 2 or 3 cents worth....

FastCats
02-05-2002, 05:26 PM
"No everyone is the same but I think Backfire's point is some boating business owners will have to PUBLICLY 'distance' themselves from the extreme testing."
I'm sure that most mfgs would be happy with that, and some already exercise this approach, it means less expense to them immediately. An idea would be to take the Firestone approach, build it and see what happens to the consumer!
We actually do have a computer program that shows areas of stress per 10,000 lbs of pressure per square foot on a given area, whether it is caused by Aerodynamic lift, hydrodynamic lift, torque, or water compression also plays a part in the picture. And you're right, most do not go to this extreme. We do this before shooting the gel in the mold so we know what our schedule will be and where our stress areas will be. We just finished this process on a project with extremely high horsepower and the boat was pulled from the mold last week, now we're on the physical testing.
We also test for other things other than top speed, such as time to plane, varying loads, water conditions, placement of weight, engine heights, props in or props turning out, etc.. You are also correct in stating that precautions should be taken.
[This message has been edited by FastCats (edited February 05, 2002).]

HaulinAZZ
02-05-2002, 09:20 PM
Essex502,
May as well stop wasting your breath. I knew
Steve too. This is the Steve that I knew.
He didn't spend money on analysis. He couldn't even remember where his X dimension should be cut. He was criticized for rigging high HP motors with stock HP mounts. At the debut of his racing class at FireBird he almost chopped the heads off the VIP's riding in his boat with the starting rope because he was too busy showing off. His triple digit passes at the sand bar brought numerous warnings from law enforcement officials concerned for bystander’s safety. He was testing a TWIN engine boat that he had little experience with (less than 5 built folks), without safety gear for himself and his passengers (in use). He killed himself and 3 other men with families in what can only be described as poor conditions (Wind, speed limit, size of lake, etc, etc). If people on this site condone these actions and wish to mimic them, I pity the wrath this sport will suffer!

playdeep
02-05-2002, 10:08 PM
haulnazz,my hats off to you and backfire for having the balls to say your peace.It seems as if anyone who posts anything other than what a great guy steve was gets torched.

playdeep
02-05-2002, 10:08 PM
haulnazz,my hats off to you and backfire for having the balls to say your peace.It seems as if anyone who posts anything other than what a great guy steve was gets torched.

Havasu Hangin'
02-06-2002, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by playdeep:
haulnazz,my hats off to you and backfire for having the balls to say your peace.It seems as if anyone who posts anything other than what a great guy steve was gets torched.
It's not about having balls. In my opinion, to criticize someone who is no longer here to defend himself is chickenshit.
Perhaps the reason you "get torched" is because your comments have no value...they will not affect anything except make some families upset that don't need it right now.
You wanna talk safety- then do it. You want to talk shit about someone that's no longer with us- then take it somewhere else.
[This message has been edited by Havasu Hangin' (edited February 06, 2002).]

playdeep
02-06-2002, 06:51 AM
Let the name calling begin.How about a new thread?.HTM glee club members only.

Essex502
02-06-2002, 08:19 AM
Positives and negatives from a tragedy such as this should be debated openly and honestly so that others don't repeat any possible mistakes and make themselves safer. We must all learn from the past and go forward. I did not know the men involved so I won't hazard an opinion on them personally. Probably they were the greatest guys on Earth. But even the greatest guys can and do make mistakes as we are only human. I would bet that those men would welcome the debate.

HaulinAZZ
02-06-2002, 12:13 PM
I spoke with Steve to his face plenty of times. He was a great guy and more than likeable. Just because he was a nice guy, doesn't mean he wasn't reckless.
The point some people are tying to make is, stop defending what they were doing and the way they were doing it. If you can honestly defend the outcome of their activities in any positive light for themselves, their families or the industry, I'd be shocked and amazed.

DMB
02-06-2002, 12:38 PM
Did anyone ever consider that the familys left behind might be thinking along the same lines,To continue to protect family members as it is always put what exactly does this mean, any negative points or facts to the debate cannot be made only good or else, how long should we protect or not state facts.
Talking shit is only considerd shit if it is not factual, I to knew steve pretty well and even before this tragedy took place his past was biting him in the ass, although he was trying to make things better most did not approve of his tactics.
I to am getting a little tired of all the greatest guy in the world bullshit, while he was a decent human being he also ran a company that made a product to be puchased by the general public this carries a certain responsibilaty just like GM or Ford, and when people die in situations like this any company would be under the microscope by the general public,the sherrif,osha( people died on the job)was he being resposible for safety measures concerning his employees osha will make that call.
HTM had a reputation for shooting their mouths off about their boats for this they took alot have flac and deserved most of it.
Now I'm not talking crap just stating some facts and I'm definatly holding back.
Let me add this, I think HTM makes a good product I hope they make it thru all this and continue to be prosper.
While this subject should be presented a certain way, to tell everyone you can only say certain (positive things)is starting grow thin,most of the people saying this are clueless about what transpired and did not personally know any of these men,get off the soap boxes guys as long as its not abusive whats the problem.
Its been long enough. If you need to flame me flame away.

boat030
02-06-2002, 01:06 PM
I should probably keep my mouth shut about this but i'm gonna ignore my common sence and pipe in. i think some people are mixing up being respectfull and just plain ignoring the facts. we should be very respectfull of the people that lost there lives in this incident however the things that we are hearing about what hapened seem to point to some people being pretty careless and not apreciating the danger of the situation they put themselves in we should all learn as much as possible from this and if that means talking openly and honestly about it which i believe it does then that's what we should do and what better place to do that than here among the people it could help the most. my experience with the people from htm came from seeing them at the ihba races including the castaic race where they pitted right next to us most of them came over and introduced themselves including Steve they all seemed to be good people but that should not keep us from discussing what hapened RESPECTFULLY.

Havasu Hangin'
02-06-2002, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I spoke with Steve to his face plenty of times. He was a great guy and more than likeable. Just because he was a nice guy, doesn't mean he wasn't reckless.
Absolutely. But why post negative stories? None of us are saints. Since we will never hear his side, is it fair, or just "talking shit"?
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
The point some people are tying to make is, stop defending what they were doing and the way they were doing it. If you can honestly defend the outcome of their activities in any positive light for themselves, their families or the industry, I'd be shocked and amazed.
People have a right to defend what they were doing, just as you have a right to counter. However, to make your point, you don't have don't bring up personal stories about someone who's you know will not be able to defend them.
Originally posted by DMB:
Did anyone ever consider that the familys left behind might be thinking along the same lines,To continue to protect family members as it is always put what exactly does this mean, any negative points or facts to the debate cannot be made only good or else, how long should we protect or not state facts.
I've spoken with the family members. They are in agreement that safety is an issue. Yes, we can all learn by other's mistakes.
Originally posted by DMB:
Talking shit is only considerd shit if it is not factual,
I disagree, DMB. Talking shit can also mean stating facts about someone who is no longer here to defend them. So it's a one-sided debate, right?
Originally posted by DMB:
While this subject should be presented a certain way, to tell everyone you can only say certain (positive things)is starting grow thin,most of the people saying this are clueless about what transpired and did not personally know any of these men,get off the soap boxes guys as long as its not abusive whats the problem.
I agree. However, is this abusive?
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
He didn't spend money on analysis. He couldn't even remember where his X dimension should be cut. He was criticized for rigging high HP motors with stock HP mounts. At the debut of his racing class at FireBird he almost chopped the heads off the VIP's riding in his boat with the starting rope because he was too busy showing off. His triple digit passes at the sand bar brought numerous warnings from law enforcement officials concerned for bystander’s safety. He was testing a TWIN engine boat that he had little experience with (less than 5 built folks), without safety gear for himself and his passengers (in use). He killed himself and 3 other men with families in what can only be described as poor conditions (Wind, speed limit, size of lake, etc, etc).
I consider that one-sided, pointless, and abusive, since we don't have anyone to defend themselves.
If you disagree with the safety steps taken, fine. No need to talk shit about ANYONE to make that point.
And playdeep, this is not a Steve or HTM issue, it's about respect for those who died. How many of us have gone for triple digit rides without safety gear? I have...and I'm sure many others have. So "talk shit" about me...I'm still here.
Now I challenge you...can you make your point (or debate) without disrespecting those who perished? I bet you can...as this is a safety issue, and we all need to re-evaluate.
Originally posted by boat030:
...but that should not keep us from discussing what hapened RESPECTFULLY.
Exactly. If you choose not to, take it somewhere else....

spectra75
02-06-2002, 03:33 PM
HH, Well stated. The debate about safety will not stop and it shouldn't stop among high performance boaters. Safety is always a concern. At the same time, let's have some respect for the people who have paid the ultimate price for all of us. High performance boating has come a long way, and we have all benefited. Everyone who has tested high performance water craft has taken a chance. Unfortunately, the employees of HTM, and a customer, has paid the ultimate price. Let us learn from their experience and let them rest in peace.
Ken

DMB
02-06-2002, 07:26 PM
HH,I don't know who you are but It seems as though your taking this on as a personal issue rather than a formal debate of reasone and or factual statements judging by the tone of your corraspondence.
Who decided to take the 30ft HTM out and try to break 150 MPH the second or third time out? I wont even get Into specifics, what company did he own, how can you say its not about HTM or steve? thats an opinion not factual statement.
As far as your parameters or the finer points as to what defines shit talking and or whats abusive, this also is an opinion yes some of the wording is strong but then so are yours almost to the point of arrogance, like I'm right end of discussion.
And as for him not being here to defend his actions on that day,If he had survived I'm sure he would't dare try, he made a grave mistake thats a fact! weather you agree or not or if your just not comfortable hearing it sorry but its the truth.
To defend what went on that day whatever this means would be a denile of the facts that surround it.
Why continue to play Governor of this topic everbody knows what transpired,the familys know what went on, Your singing about the choir when refering to protecting the family members at this point.
Once again get off the soap box.

Havasu Hangin'
02-06-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by DMB:
HH,I don't know who you are but It seems as though your taking this on as a personal issue...Why continue to play Governor of this topic everbody knows what transpired,the familys know what went on...Once again get off the soap box.
I'm not taking this personal. I'm not governor of this topic (as I stated earlier):
Originally posted by Havasu Hangin':
You wanna talk safety- then do it...
Now I challenge you...can you make your point (or debate) without disrespecting those who perished?
I didn't chime in until "Steve stories" were brought up...that had nothing to do with 1/11.
So talk safety...
talk about vests...
talk about how fast the boat was...
talk about the water conditions...
talk about the mistake these guys made...
speculate on what happened...
talk about it's impact on the boating industry (how this thread started)...
talk about ANYTHING YOU WANT regarding the accident...I'm not defending what they were doing.
However, if you tell stories from the past about anyone that's not here to defend themselves (not just Steve), and I'll still call it "talking shit" and disrespectful.
That's my opinion...not my soapbox.

playdeep
02-06-2002, 09:24 PM
HH,Your myopic view is amazing.This isn`t about steve or htm?.Did I miss somthing? please tell me who the real owner and mfg. was! Your last post was classic.You claim to not be the governor of the board and then proceed to post a list as to what you deem acceptable.I was in havasu last weekend and believe me the subject permeates and it aint all pretty.I suppose you could go to all the local shops,boat factorys,bars etc. call the everybody chickenshits and tell them to take to please take thier opinions elsewhere...

Havasu Hangin'
02-06-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by playdeep:
HH,Your myopic view is amazing.This isn`t about steve or htm? Did I miss somthing?
Now who's being myopic. Yes, you missed something. I encourage you to re-read my posts. My comments weren't directed toward the accident, HTM, or Steve. They were toward the "Steve stories" from before the accident.
Originally posted by playdeep:
You claim to not be the governor of the board and then proceed to post a list as to what you deem acceptable...
Once again, re-read my posts (they are not edited). Since you don't get what I'm saying...I'll make it very clear...I'll even quote myself:
Originally posted by Havasu Hangin':
talk about ANYTHING YOU WANT regarding the accident...I'm not defending what they were doing..
I'm not providing a list...read above...hence, the word "ANYTHING". Since you seem to not understand, I'll quote myself again:
Originally posted by Havasu Hangin':
However, if you tell stories from the past about anyone that's not here to defend themselves (not just Steve), and I'll still call it "talking shit" and disrespectful.
So do you understand now? It's about being respectful...not about HTM or the accident. Can you talk about the accident and still be respectful?
Or are you here just to talk shit? I'm looking at your posts, and I don't see anything productive yet. Did I miss something?

RiverDave
02-07-2002, 12:34 PM
There would be a few in here that are Slamming Steve for acting irresponsibly during the time of the accident.
I'd like to ask them a question...
How fast was the HTM going when it occured? What actually occured?
In case you missed the point of the two questions let me "dumb it down" for ya..
If you don't know what happened, how can you slam him for being irresponsible? Or even accuse him of killing three people?
Doesn't seem like "speculation" to me... Seems like talking shit.
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave (edited February 07, 2002).]

Essex502
02-07-2002, 01:10 PM
A question that contiually comes to my mind is why were the 4 men in the boat with only one seat. (As reported here on the Forum) That seems a might irresponsible to me. Other questions such as how fast were they REALLY going that day? We may never know. Were they using any kind of safety equipment? It was reported that a floatation device was "found" floating near the first body recovered (I don't remember who that was). Were the other 3 men wearing safety gear? What was the TRUE weather conditions on Castiac that day? I live in the neighborhood of the lake and know that the wind can blow pretty damn hard on the lake. Were they really on the lake that day to break 150 or just out for a ride? Since the posts on 1/09 by Mr.Pumps stated that they were going back "later in the week" to seek higher speeds I think they were traveling faster than the 80 or so the witnesses guessed. Shear speculation though. And, of course, we all want to know what really caused the crash. Flipped? Lost an engine? Side roller or wake? All have been proposed on this board.
Now I hope that I haven't inflamed anyone and have tried to be as sensitive as possible but sometimes a healthy discussion eases the pain of loss.
One last point I'd like to make: this post started a discussion about the "industry effects" of the accident and again has degenerated into reputed story telling and accusations of "talking shit". The same has happened in every thread about the accident OTHER than the memorial fund. It seems to me that there are strong passions on both sides of the issue. It would be really nice to channel all of that energy to bettering our sport.

HTM Lady
02-07-2002, 04:07 PM
Ok guys.I know all 4 of the men and Chuck the best and Steve well.The facts (or so said) and all the speculation is not helping anyone.First off Steve nor Chuck were ever careless or reckless. They were always concerned about others and their safety. I was atPhoenix and there was no showing off. Big Boats are hard to hold on a start line in the wind. Get facts straight. As far as the accident that took the lives of these men. The word accident is the point. They were all grown men who made choices so many of you on the post have before. Boys playing doing what they loved.To whom ever made the comment that Steve killed the 3 men. You can take the comment and place it somewhere dark. Everyone please learn from this,use safety gear and be carefull. Everyone say what you need to say pertaining to driving,safety and conditions but keep the bashing of HTM or the men out. There are some of emotionally attached to these men .

VD CRUISER
02-07-2002, 05:19 PM
Well said HTM LADY. These guys were just doing what they, and most of us, love to do.

DMB
02-08-2002, 05:12 PM
Slamming? How fast? Dumb It down for Ya,
Let me ask YOU! do you realy want to do this? Personaly RD I like you from your posts but your defending something you know nothing about,and a person whose character you did not know.
As far as relating or telling storys to describe ones character,this is a standard practice I believe lawyers call this characterizing,(not hey judge that guys talking shit ) maybe defamation of character If completely untrue,but it seems thats not the case in question.Though I do believe it should be handled in a certain manner.
UH, you do know the boats been out of the water along with a motor for awhile right? do YOU! think there have already been some preliminary conclusions on speed along with other determining factors by the proper authorities? (Read between the lines)
Just because a couple of people here do not know things they think they should,doesn't mean they have to get hostile and bitter, do not place more importance on yourself than the topic.
Now I could tell some storys to characterize,but I wont because Its not neccesary,but they would be contrary to what some people would like you to believe.
I wish no ill on HTM or HTM lady, please if you do not want to read these things then stop! at this point its only a matter of choice.
One more time get off your soap boxes,off the wagons your riding to a picnic you were never invited to.
[This message has been edited by DMB (edited February 09, 2002).]

CrazyHippy
02-08-2002, 11:29 PM
So what if Steve went out to try his 150mph, realized it was to windy decided to cancel the speed work, and just have a fun day on the lake???
Maybe they were only doing 40, and I dont think Steve forced any one of those men onto that boat.
BJH

HighRoller
02-10-2002, 12:03 PM
Okay,I've thought long and hard about this and one thing still puzzles me.In what way does this thing qualify as a"tragedy"?A tragedy is when an innocent person gets killed by no fault of their own.(i.e.9/11)I AM NOT saying those people deserved to die so don't even go there.I'm saying that they paid the consequences for using poor judgement.150mph in any way shape or form carries a high risk with it.They compounded that risk by not being properly prepared and running on a lake not adequate for this speed.There is a tragedy in this whole episode,and that's the families.It upsets me that these men couldn't think about their families long enough to act like responsible fathers and husbands and not imperil themselves in a senseless pursuit off ridiculous speed in an untested boat.Maybe this incident will temper the attitude of all those people who think it's"cool"to do over 120mph in a passenger boat with no safety gear.Speed deserves respect,demands responsibility and carries high consequences.

Doug The Jeweler
02-10-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by HTM Lady:
Ok guys.I know all 4 of the men and Chuck the best and Steve well.The facts (or so said) and all the speculation is not helping anyone.First off Steve nor Chuck were ever careless or reckless. They were always concerned about others and their safety. I was atPhoenix and there was no showing off. Big Boats are hard to hold on a start line in the wind. Get facts straight. As far as the accident that took the lives of these men. The word accident is the point. They were all grown men who made choices so many of you on the post have before. Boys playing doing what they loved.To whom ever made the comment that Steve killed the 3 men. You can take the comment and place it somewhere dark. Everyone please learn from this,use safety gear and be carefull. Everyone say what you need to say pertaining to driving,safety and conditions but keep the bashing of HTM or the men out. There are some of emotionally attached to these men .
You know HTM Lady,I couldn't talk about safty before as per your orders,now it's ok for you to talk about it.You hacheted me and acted far superior in another post.I thought you were one of the relatives of the dead men so I wrote you a personal email telling you how sorry I was for your loss.What a fool I was.all you are is a big mouth at best.Thin skined or thick skined you should be ashamed of yourself.

RiverDave2
02-10-2002, 05:01 PM
DMB, if you could drop me an e-mail.. I'd like to show you something off the boards.
D.T.J. She's not a relative, but she was the girlfriend of Mr.Pumps.. Ashamed of herself? I think not.
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited February 10, 2002).]

Doug The Jeweler
02-10-2002, 07:09 PM
Once again I am the bad guy right Dave.She could of acknowlodged my E.mail of sorrow with a thank you I was Mr Pumps girlfriend,
E-Mail in return.The point was about Jungle Drums and now it is ok to talk about safty again .Go Figure!!

RiverDave2
02-10-2002, 07:26 PM
Hey bud.. I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy.. I'm just letting ya know that she was close to them and that she has nothing to be ashamed about.
RD

sea buddy
02-11-2002, 05:08 AM
I posted on this thread based on the title--industry impact.
It's far off that issue.

HaulinAZZ
02-11-2002, 03:22 PM
Sea Buddy,
I wouldn't say that. This board represents a pretty good cross section of the industry. Voicing opinions and views on this industry sounding board seems to be met with name-calling and cries of censorship. If you don't agree with the mega-posting people that appear to have way too much free time on their hands, you can expect these board bullies to threaten people with tribal drums every time you disagree with them or their pals. What a fine example of our industry!
HTM lady, no disrespect meant, but as far as the facts are concerned, at the debut (couple of years ago now) of the HTM racing class at Firebird, I witnessed the dog and pony show of HTM doing high speed passes in front of the stands with passengers onboard. Steve forgot the starting line rope was up and almost clothes lined his passengers! 1 passenger yanked one of the other people to the floor so hard he almost pants him! I believe I do have my facts straight on this. As far as sticking my comment of Steve killing his 3 passengers someplace dark, read Webster’s definition and apply it to what happened and I think you’ll find that to be accurate also. Chuck may have gone willingly as a friend but could anyone say that about a subordinate of the boss (Steve)? OSHA is there to ensure a safe work place for employees. Testing without safety equipment in use at speeds that were reported the day before is against every rule in the book (especially common sense)!
If it were talking shit and brand bashing that I wanted to accomplish, I could write pages of things I was first party to that would accomplish that. It appears that other people have opinions based on similar experiences that agree with mine. They too have offered their opinions without getting very detailed and ugly(just being respectful). Since these opinions differ with “The club” they’re met with name-calling!
Erik has called for courteous posts and civil discussion on this board. People directing profanity and childish name calling at people posting views and opinions should be the ones having tribal drums directed their way. Are you people too narrow minded to see that?
I would like to see the final report on this accident when it becomes public. If any of the deaths that occurred that day were due to drowning, a PFD in use could have changed this story drastically. Ken had severe trauma that may have been reduced by full-face helmet use, but that’s PURELY speculation. Since he was WEARING neither, we’ll never know.
I’m done with this thread until the final report is released. I have a feeling that if it doesn’t agree with the views of certain people on this board, it’ll be dismissed as BS anyway!

Doug The Jeweler
02-11-2002, 03:29 PM
Here Here

Havasu Hangin'
02-11-2002, 04:28 PM
As everyone knows, I am by no means governor of this place. I try to keep it pretty light, and I often bite my tounge when I see something that I don't agree with.
I'm not here to debate what happened. I think we can all agree some mistakes were probably made. However, when I see a post that has no value, other than to hurt the widows and fatherless children, it made me speak out...
...and I apologize.
Over the past few weeks, I have personally spoken with the families, and most will read these posts. I also recieved many calls and e-mails from those in the boating community that set thier differences aside, and understand that this is a terrible trajedy.
I am truely looking forward to this boating season. My wife still has a husband, and my children still have a father, and we are all going to enjoy what we love doing- boating. Also, I am looking forward to meeting old and new friends this year, as we always do on the water.
So I guess what I've learned is that there are alot of good people out there who own boats...
...and a few jerks.
http://www.websitemonster.com/images/pimp.gif

DMB
02-11-2002, 05:09 PM
Don't forget self righteous,holier then thou and arrogant boat owners.

RiverDave
02-11-2002, 05:21 PM
HaulinAzz, I think I'm one of those "Mega Posting" people you were talking about.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif In any event you are correct in some/most of your post.. I just don't know if it's right or wrong to be "rubbing" it in certain peoples faces. This is where our dissagreement comes into play. It has nothing to do with the actual facts of what happened.. In any event we dissagree, I can live with that. You see you just changed me in my ways.. No name calling, No booming of drums or anything of that nature. I have listened to you and we have just "Shared/Exchanged and Idea & Philosophy." Would you listen to me now when I say just try and "lighten up" a little bit. I know what points your trying to get across, but your stompin (In my opinion) on alot of people whom are hurting already. Can we work together a little bit on this?
RD

Doug The Jeweler
02-11-2002, 05:52 PM
If the Power posters would stop trying to make us think and act as they do,If they stopped,they will find that these threads will die a natural death and no one will offend anyone or make anyone sad.You notice that the P.Posters just won't give up trying to control our minds.They keep on and on saying mostly the same things over and over again.Our hearts are in a good place and no offense is intended against anyone.And your driving abilities includes your last pass.If you make 10,000 passes and on your 10,001 pass you kill yourself and 3 other passengers due to lack of safty.4 people are still dead .As the driver it is your responsibility to make sure every one in your boat is safe before the boat moves from the dock.This is your duty to show everyone that you care about your passengers safty and won't settle for anything else.I Promise all of you that from this day forward that I will make everyone wear a lifevest whenever my boat is moving.I promise everyone on this board in honor of our fallen brothers"The Castaic 4"...I think we all should look at our safty practices and change them if it would make our passengers safer.It is something each of us can do in our own way because we are responsable boat owners and don't want to lose our freedoms as High Preformance boat owners.End of Sermon
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited February 11, 2002).]

pleasantcat
02-11-2002, 07:20 PM
hey haulin im not going to call names or even be rude. im just going to give my two cents. steve and the others (right or wrong) to do the same thing im sure we ALL are guilty of.i know from personal experiances that we all dont grap the pfd's and helmets when eggd on by another boat. or even better when you take a friend or two out and have a little fun. hmm ya think maybe they were just playing a little and an ACCIDENT occured??? i for one wish the families all the best though these trying times and although i didnt know him in person, the few times i spoke with steve he was a really nice and informative man. next these men that build our boats do alot of r&d so that we customers can play and be somewhat safe.we as boat owners should show alot more respect to these families. as i see it....we owe them.

RiverDave
02-12-2002, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Doug The Jeweler:
If the Power posters would stop trying to make us think and act as they do,If they stopped,they will find that these threads will die a natural death and no one will offend anyone or make anyone sad.You notice that the P.Posters just won't give up trying to control our minds.They keep on and on saying mostly the same things over and over again.Our hearts are in a good place and no offense is intended against anyone.And your driving abilities includes your last pass.If you make 10,000 passes and on your 10,001 pass you kill yourself and 3 other passengers due to lack of safty.4 people are still dead .As the driver it is your responsibility to make sure every one in your boat is safe before the boat moves from the dock.This is your duty to show everyone that you care about your passengers safty and won't settle for anything else.I Promise all of you that from this day forward that I will make everyone wear a lifevest whenever my boat is moving.I promise everyone on this board in honor of our fallen brothers"The Castaic 4"...I think we all should look at our safty practices and change them if it would make our passengers safer.It is something each of us can do in our own way because we are responsable boat owners and don't want to lose our freedoms as High Preformance boat owners.End of Sermon
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited February 11, 2002).]
D.T.J, I think that's great that your going to make every person in your boat wear a PFD anytime your boat is moving. Little Extreme? Probably.. But there's nothing wrong with it.
I personally will continue to not wear one anytime my boat is moving.. Personal choice I guess. Am I still trying to control your mind? http://free.***boat.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave (edited February 12, 2002).]

HTM Lady
02-12-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
Sea Buddy,
I wouldn't say that. This board represents a pretty good cross section of the industry. Voicing opinions and views on this industry sounding board seems to be met with name-calling and cries of censorship. If you don't agree with the mega-posting people that appear to have way too much free time on their hands, you can expect these board bullies to threaten people with tribal drums every time you disagree with them or their pals. What a fine example of our industry!
HTM lady, no disrespect meant, but as far as the facts are concerned, at the debut (couple of years ago now) of the HTM racing class at Firebird, I witnessed the dog and pony show of HTM doing high speed passes in front of the stands with passengers onboard. Steve forgot the starting line rope was up and almost clothes lined his passengers! 1 passenger yanked one of the other people to the floor so hard he almost pants him! I believe I do have my facts straight on this. As far as sticking my comment of Steve killing his 3 passengers someplace dark, read Webster’s definition and apply it to what happened and I think you’ll find that to be accurate also. Chuck may have gone willingly as a friend but could anyone say that about a subordinate of the boss (Steve)? OSHA is there to ensure a safe work place for employees. Testing without safety equipment in use at speeds that were reported the day before is against every rule in the book (especially common sense)!
If it were talking shit and brand bashing that I wanted to accomplish, I could write pages of things I was first party to that would accomplish that. It appears that other people have opinions based on similar experiences that agree with mine. They too have offered their opinions without getting very detailed and ugly(just being respectful). Since these opinions differ with “The club” they’re met with name-calling!
Erik has called for courteous posts and civil discussion on this board. People directing profanity and childish name calling at people posting views and opinions should be the ones having tribal drums directed their way. Are you people too narrow minded to see that?
I would like to see the final report on this accident when it becomes public. If any of the deaths that occurred that day were due to drowning, a PFD in use could have changed this story drastically. Ken had severe trauma that may have been reduced by full-face helmet use, but that’s PURELY speculation. Since he was WEARING neither, we’ll never know.
I’m done with this thread until the final report is released. I have a feeling that if it doesn’t agree with the views of certain people on this board, it’ll be dismissed as BS anyway!
Im not saying people shouldnt talk about it or safety.But to bash the guys or Steve mainly on hurts his wife and kida and thats not fair. As far as Phoenix. I was there and no one took a pass with anyone in the boat ever. So I guess we were at two different events. I just hope threw all the crap on these posts that people can leave the harsh negatives about the guys out and onle talk about safety and how not to have this happen. Believe me we can do it without all the bickering on the posts.If I get hostile to you or any one. No harm intended but as Chucks girlfriend and Steves friend sometimes It gets a little hard to keep reading. I have tried to keep my posts limited.Everyone who pulled threw for this has been great and totally supportive for the families and for that I want to say THANK YOU.

HTM Lady
02-12-2002, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Doug The Jeweler:
Once again I am the bad guy right Dave.She could of acknowlodged my E.mail of sorrow with a thank you I was Mr Pumps girlfriend,
E-Mail in return.The point was about Jungle Drums and now it is ok to talk about safty again .Go Figure!!
Doug,
This is Chucks girlfriend and yes I appologize that was rude and disrespectful of me not to acknowledge you when you emailed me. It was during a very hard emotional week and I was wrong. So I have made it public (not being a smart ass only sincere)Thank You.

FastCats
02-12-2002, 08:20 PM
Very well put Pleasant Cat! Hang in there HTM Lady!
Scott

Doug The Jeweler
02-12-2002, 08:30 PM
Thank you HTM lady.There is hope for me yet.May your healing be swift.I really mean it.Doug TJ