Ford vers Chevy

[INDY 1]

A couple of years ago, Hot boat had a build contest. How can i get a copy of the article? thanks in advance.

[QuickJet]

I can sum it up for yah.....Chevy won!!!

[INDY 1]

if i rember i dont think so.

[058]

A couple of years ago, Hot boat had a build contest. How can i get a copy of the article? thanks in advance.Are you thinking of the 3 way engine build in Hot Rod Mag? Done in 1995 or 96. Ford Beat the Chevy by about 50 HP and 65-70 over the Mopar. Engine made 813HP@ 6800 rpm, single 4bbl on pump gas. I have the HRM article somewhere, you want me to dig it up?

[steelcomp]

Are you thinking of the 3 way engine build in Hot Rod Mag? Done in 1995 or 96. Ford Beat the Chevy by about 50 HP and 65-70 over the Mopar. Engine made 813HP@ 6800 rpm, single 4bbl on pump gas. I have the HRM article somewhere, you want me to dig it up?
058, if you wouldn't mind taking the time, I'd like to see that.

[LakesOnly]

You guys remember the crate motor comparo?
LO

[058]

058, if you wouldn't mind taking the time, I'd like to see that.
Steelcomp, I don't have a scanner anymore so I can't scan the article for you but I can post specs, info or copy the pages and mail them to you, whats your pleasure?

[058]

You guys remember the crate motor comparo?
LO
Paul, there has been several articles, which one are you referring to?

[dmontzsta]

Where are the chevy guys? :D

[QuickJet]

Where are the chevy guys? :D
Oh Chevy is in the house......and in all the fast boats :argue: . It costs a lot less to build a 800 hp BBC than any other big block.
Word!!!

[shaun]

058, you got a digital camera? maybe you can take a pic of the article and post it?

[dmontzsta]

Oh Chevy is in the house......and in all the fast boats :argue: . It costs a lot less to build a 800 hp BBC than any other big block.
Word!!!
Now you did it... :D

[jmherbert]

Oh Chevy is in the house......and in all the fast boats :argue: . It costs a lot less to build a 800 hp BBC than any other big block.
Word!!!
If its the article I am thinking of, the above statement rings true. I think the Ford guy outspent the Chevy guy, and of course the Mopar was the most expensive.
To quote my friend,
"Why is it Chevy guys just drive their boats, Olds guys just drive their boats, Mopar guys just drive their boats (well, most of the time and get a lot of attention if its a hemi), but Ford guys can't shut up about how much better Fords are than the others."
Note that he is knocking Ford guys, like they are trying to prove something :crossx: :D :wink:

[INDY 1]

It was a 540 with 300 rods offset ground crank with a 850 setting on top of it. I think it was in hot boat. I think it dynoed @ 725+ on pump gas.
and thanks for the reply. JD

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Where are the chevy guys? :D
We are here. :) I'd like to see the article, increase my trivia knowledge maybe. :idea:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Engine Masters Magazine did a Big Block 3-way Shootout. I found it on the web. Here is part 4, the engines are all built, described, and ready to dyno. I'll post the Part 5 article next.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/0109phrbb/index.html
Big-Block Shootout Part 4
Sizing Up The Competition
By Scott Parkhurst
All three of our entrants are assembled and ready to face off at Westech's dyno facility. The Pfaff 454 Chevy, Landy 440 Mopar, and AEW 460 Ford were all meticulously crafted to deliver maximum horsepower on pump gas. We have leveled the playing field as well as we can by forcing all three engines to run the same-size carburetor (a Speed Demon 850-cfm, mechanical secondary), the same gasoline (92-octane pump premium) through the same exhaust system (with twin Hooker Aerochamer 3.5-inch muffs, PN 1502). All three dyno runs will be on the same day, in the same shop, with the same air (humidity and pressure could make a difference). The builders of all three engines will be present, along with PHR staffers and neutral dyno shop personnel.
Before we hop in the proverbial ring to let the contestants brawl, we figured it would be wise (and fun) to give a scouting report. We did a little research, and had some fun with the Mr. Gasket Desktop Dyno program in predicting the outcome of the Shootout. We also wanted to provide readers with complete listings of all the major parts used on all the engines, with part numbers, to make duplicating these engines as easy as possible. Naturally, we'd encourage working with Summit Racing, since they worked so hard to stay within our guidelines and design some excellent engine packages, and get the parts to us under very tough deadlines.
We'll take a look at each engine and get opinions from the builders on their finished product. We'll then share the computer estimates and our own opinions before listing the goodies Summit provided for us. We'd also like to thank General Motors Performance Parts for supplying the Chevy 454 block, crank, and connecting rods for the 454 Chevy. We feel they didn't get enough representation in the Chevy buildup, and it's important that readers know about the top-notch parts available from their local dealers and mail order sources.
So, let's jump in and ask the builders how they feel about their combinations, then we'll let the games begin. You'll have to check in with us next month to see what went down, and if you haven't sent a card in to enter this contest yet, it should be apparent you're running out of time to do so. Send in that card!
PAUL PFAFF RACING ENGINES
We spoke with shop chief Gordon Jennings, who not only assembled the engine, but will be personally tuning it as well. "We're pushing for 7,000 rpm, which we feel is necessary to beat the other guys. We're going to have to see at least 6,500. We've not pushed a hydraulic roller that hard before, but we will now. We've also been playing with the tuning on Demon carbs to get a better idea about where we'd like to be on that. We know where our timing needs to be, and we know what the Merlin heads like, so fine-tuning won't be too difficult."
"Without a doubt, this will be fun. We're dyno-tuning ours at the shop first to get it all dialed in, but as of right now, we haven't. We fully expect to see 600 horses, maybe more. How much more, we can't say yet. But it'll be a runner, and a hell of a strong street motor."
By representing the most popular make of engine at the Shootout, Gordon knows he's got plenty of enthusiasts keeping an eye on his work. He shows no fear, and this confidence is bolstered by the hundreds of big-blocks he's built over the last decade. Quick to smile, and always busy, look for Gordon's experience (and Pfaff's precision assembly and machine tooling) to pay big dividends.
DICK LANDY INDUSTRIES
Our Indy-headed 440 was initially thought to be the dark horse, but after getting a solid roller cam, things perked up quickly. Considering the cubic- inch sacrifice and other issues we mentioned in the story, this move is justified. We commented on Landy's thoughts regarding hydraulic rollers for the 440, and he wished to clarify a few things for us now.
"Hydraulic rollers aren't necessarily an issue in 440s, but the higher-lift stuff (more than .500-inch), we've had some bad luck there. There may have been some miscommunication about that in the story we wanted to clear up. The Crane hydraulic roller stuff is fine under .500-inch lift, the parts are top-notch. But, we feel to run more than .500 with a hydraulic roller, oil control mods are necessary."
So, to correct ourselves and polish the facts, hydraulic roller camshafts are fine in big-block Mopars with lift numbers in the .500-inch range. The Crane hydraulic roller lifter design can be used without concern in non-modified lifter bores with these correct cams. Our apologies to Crane and Landy for the misunderstanding.
Beyond that, Landy said "Due to our shaft-mounted rocker design, we're limited on how radical the cam profile can get. Using the same lobe profile with 1.5:1 ratio is a limiting factor, and we can go to 1.6:1 without much issue, but to go to 1.8:1 like the Chevy guys or Ford guys can; we can't do that. It's a big deal, and it gets very expensive with a Mopar."
The Mopar should have gained an advantage of a few rpm with the cam design, and the Indy heads will certainly deliver the goods upstairs. Will it be enough to overcome both the Chevy and the Ford? Only time will tell.
ADVANCED ENGINEERING WEST (AEW)
The Ford camp was lucky we chose AEW to build the 460. As we reported last month, Mark Sanchez (the owner of AEW) is a passionate fan of the 429/460, and his experience in tuning the biggest-displacement engine in our contest will certainly fare well for Ford fans. Initially, we'd planned to run Ford Racing's own Cobra Jet aluminum head, but after discussing the matter at length with Summit Racing, it was decided the Edelbrock Performer RPM head would serve us better for less expense. The Edelbrock head was designed to compete with the Cobra Jet casting, and does so for $500 less per pair. We felt this would be of benefit for our readership, and since there was no sacrifice in power potential (especially once AEW ran the Edelbrock RPM heads through their porting procedures), we're anxious to see how they fare against the competition. Mark feels positive about it too.
"I'd not seen the Edelbrock heads before, and they look good. I like the design, and I plan on working them in the same manner I would the Cobra Jets. I have a few ideas on tuning this combination I'm confident will make big power. We'll make close to 600, maybe more if we get the tune-up right. We've got a good combination; there's plenty of good parts here."
Another change was made to the engine, as further research proved our camshaft combination would not work as we'd hoped. We wanted to combine a hydraulic roller lifter with a cam designed to run solid rollers, but it simply will not work. COMP Cams told us our grind was simply too aggressive for the hydraulic rollers to deal with, and with time ticking away at us, we were forced to simply substitute the hydraulic rollers for the solid rollers the cam was designed to work with. The Crane lifters are excellent pieces when used with the cams they were designed for, but our aggressive attempt at mixing solid designs with hydraulic pieces was not to be, and we apologize for the inaccuracy.
No one knows how the final story will play out, but Mark doesn't even seem shaken by the competition. In working with him, we saw a guy focused purely on his own efforts and not worrying about what anyone else had going on. The other builders asked a few questions about the opposition's engines while we were working with them, but Mark didn't. Like a drag racer, he knows he's racing the track, not the car in the next lane. Mark is facing the dyno itself more than the competition.
THE HIGH-TECH CRYSTAL BALL
Mr. Gasket's Desktop Dyno software has become an important tool in choosing matching engine combinations for several years now. Updates to the original program have made the once-tricky task of designing complete engines much simpler, and predicting the effects of different camshafts or cylinder heads is a breeze. It's not to see when you've got too much cam or when you need more carb cfm.
We really like this program, and when matched with Mr. Gasket's Desktop Dragstrip, it allows hot rodders the chance to build and test their cars long before spending their money on what might have been the wrong combination.
We decided to plug in our figures from the Big-Block Shootout and see who the software chose to win. There are a few variables we cannot account for in the software, however. We told you the engine builders would be limited to 92-octane pump gas, which would normally limit compression ratios to about 9.5:1. Since we're running aluminum heads, the heat absorption properties of the heads will allow for a bit more compression. Also, since these engine shops are all intimately-familiar with their engines of choice, we're confident they'd know where the hot spots were in the combustion chambers and be able to work them out as well.
The bottom line is that these experts are very capable of creating engines with more than 9.5:1 compression that will work just fine on pump gas, and we don't know how far each of them can go, or did go. There are some things they wouldn't share with us, and this critical measurement is one of those factors. We know all of the heads got some port work, and chamber shaping is part of that deal, but we did not force them to determine compression ratio for us with cameras popping. We felt that if any of these builders knows how to make big power on pump gas, they would do so here, and how they did so was up to them. Certainly, we've made the rules here, but we wanted to give each builder a chance to do what they do best, and this engineering is certainly part of it.
Once the contest is completed, we'll ask again where each compression ratio ended up, and if they're willing to share, we'll let you know. For now, let's ask the software.
The Desktop Dyno software offers many different options to accurately predict the power and torque your engine will produce. It's only as accurate as the information fed into it, and we found it enlightening. To get the most accurate power prediction, we'd have to enter cylinder head flow information we simply do not have at this time. Instead, we've substituted cylinder head design information and valve sizes, along with a default estimate on the amount of work done to each engine's heads. We lumped the Mopar and Ford entrants together, describing both of their head designs as "Fully Ported Wedge." The Chevy, by design, is more accurately described as a "Rectangular Port-Canted valve with Pocket Porting". Naturally, the program gives greater flow potential (and therefore power numbers) to the Chevy design. While this is not inaccurate information, the Chevy engine is credited with a significantly-larger power estimate than its competition. We know we could have come closer to our reality with complete flow information, and without the time constraints of completing these series of stories, we could have developed much more accurate estimates. We don't feel our numbers are way off, but we don't feel they represent the accuracy the Desktop Dyno program is capable of either.
So, the computer feels the canted-valve/big-port Bow Tie motor will win. Many of our readers and several insiders agree, but we're not so fast to judge. The big-inch Ford certainly has the potential to scream, if Mark's tuning tricks all work. The Mopar's solid roller cam will open the door to higher rpm potential, and if Dick can tweak it to keep making power past 6,500 rpm, it could sneak by the other two motors on the power scale. Certainly, the power peak won't be up that high, but moving the entire scale up a notch could result in a higher peak power number.

[Sleek-Jet]

Other than it's just a barrel of monkey's giving the Ford guys a ration... they get so defensive... :argue: :D
I believe Car Craft did a camparison on how much it cost to build X amount of horse power several years ago... All of the engine makes came out pretty much dead even. Pretty sure Ford and Chevy were dollar for HP dead even. I wish I could find that issue right now...

[SmokinLowriderSS]

http://www.popularhotroddingweb.com/enginemasters/0110_phr_bb/
Big-Block Shootout: Pt 5
The Results are In!
By Scott Parkhurst
Photography: Scott Parkhurst , Mike Petralia , Randy Fish , Scott Council
It was an interesting way to start the morning; walking in to the Westech dyno shop and seeing the three monster Big-Block Shootout V-8s fully decked-out for battle assured one unshakable truth: It was going to be a fun day. Obviously, we have been working toward this goal for about six months now, and the planning began much earlier still, so to see the results all together in the same place brought several feelings out. The first and foremost feeling was relief.
Relief meant all three engines were completed on time and had been transported to the right shop on the right day. Relief meant all three engine builders were present and confident about their creations. Relief meant John Baechtel told us he'd secured all of the necessary exhaust, bellhousing, flywheel, and dyno input shaft changes required to run all three engines in one long day on his excellent SuperFlow engine dyno. Now, it was time for some eagerly-awaited anticipation and excitement.
THE FORD 460
Mark Sanchez of Automotive Engineering West crafted the Dearborn representative to our event. His final incarnation of the 460 certainly delivered the goods. Once final tuning and timing had been accomplished, the largest-displacement V-8 entered in our contest had churned out 618 hp (at 6,100 rpm) and 554 lb-ft of torque at 4,600 rpm. The torque curve needs a new name, as it had very little curvature at all. From our beginning sample rpm of 3,500 all the way to 6,500 where we stopped, the 460 cranked out over 500 lb-ft. Mark Sanchez was satisfied with the results, but still wanted more.
"We flowed the heads after they had been pocket ported, and we got about 315 cfm out of them. We feel these heads are capable of 630 hp and our 618 number shows we're close. Still, that's plenty of power for 92 octane, and whoever wins this engine better have some serious suspension under the car."
You may also notice a Weiand Stealth intake manifold under the Demon, as opposed to the Edelbrock Victor unit we described in the engine build a couple months ago. This switch was a last-minute replacement when Mark was about to port the intake, and discovered it was designed for a 429 SCJ, not the 460. The port misalignment was severe, of course, so the Stealth was the only intake he had readily available to port match.
"I know I'll be sacrificing some top end by going to the dual plane, but the Stealth is about the best dual-plane I've worked with. If there is a sacrifice, it will be small and it will be on the very top end. We added the 1-inch spacer on top of the intake for more plenum volume, and I feel this combination will actually gain more in the midrange than we'd lose on the top end. This contest is about peak power, but please take a good look at our torque curve. I think you'll like what you see."
We did look at the torque curve and as Mark predicted, it was amazingly flat. This Ford may not have won the Shootout, but we're sure it'll win some fans on the street.
THE CHEVY 454
Being one of the most popular big-blocks ever, the 454 Chevy is loaded with both potential and the aftermarket expertise to exploit it. Certainly we've shown you plenty of solid big-block buildups here in PHR, but we could only estimate the final power outputs on our giveaway Rat. We all hovered around the 625hp-range, and as the 454 began to sing on the dyno, we were all silenced as numbers in the 640 range popped up on the screen. We got even more pumped up when we compared the fuel flow between the front and rear bowls, and determined the motor wanted more gas. We knew even greater power would follow.
After giving the bad Bow Tie all it wanted to drink, the final reward was 657 hp at both 6,300 and 6,400 rpm. Like the Ford, the Chevy pulled more than 500 lb-ft of torque from 3,500-6,500 rpm, peaking at 562 at 5,800 rpm.
We were very happy with these numbers, especially considering they were produced by a hydraulic-roller equipped 454 on pump gas! Our own Red Line 540ci Merlin laid down 670 hp in a similar configuration, but required the added cost of a stroker crank and a solid roller setup to do so. This 454 was built with a GM Performance Parts block, crankshaft, and connecting rods, so you can see the potential of the big-block hiding in your garage. Engine builder Paul Pfaff was pleased with the performance.
"You know we're going to give you hell about giving us a hydraulic roller when the other guys had solids, right? But, we did really well. We'd tested this engine on our own dyno and got about 640 out of it without fine-tuning. We knew it was a good one, but we didn't know if 640 would be enough to win this thing. Seeing 657 horses here is really good, especially on 92 octane."
Paul is right about the hydraulic roller, as the Chevy was the only engine to have one. The Ford and Mopar ended up with solid rollers, but that wasn't the plan. Initially, we'd hoped to have hydraulic rollers in all three engines, and since the Chevy was assembled first, the plan was still fine then. Once the Mopar and the Ford had determined their camshaft needs were far beyond the range of off-the-shelf hydraulic rollers currently available for their respective engines, we conceded and gave them solids. However, the specifications on all the cams were similar.
To try and level the playing field a little, the Chevy was given an electric water pump for its pulls while the Mopar and Ford were forced to turn their pumps with belt-driven pulleys, which we knew would cost some power.
THE MOPAR 440
Dick Landy showed up with plenty on his mind. His brother and business partner Mike Landy had been hurt in a non-racing-related accident a few days earlier, and Dick needed to get to the hospital to see him. His condition had improved since the accident, but things were still pretty serious. We shared his concern and hoped to have some good news for Dick to bring Mike.
The 440 fired easily and idled wonderfully at 850 rpm. It had the most civilized idle of all three engines, and we were about floored when the 440s first pull delivered 653 horses before any tuning. We asked Dick if he'd tuned the engine on his own in-house dyno, and he said he hadn't, due to a computer glitch and the issues with his brother. After adding a bit of timing and leaning out the jets a bit, the Mopar came to life on the top end. The final tally was the death knell for the competition, as the underrated 440 screamed up to 6,800 rpm after delivering 684 hp! The Mopar won on all counts, maintaining 582 lb-ft of torque at 5,500-5,800 rpm. We've never seen a naturally-aspirated 92-octane 440 ever make power like this before, and we were duly impressed.
"These things run pretty good. We know the heads can breathe up there. They're not as good as the B1s, but they can run well. Our valvetrain isn't nice and easy to change ratios on like the other guys, but it is really stable since it's a shaft setup. We can't go much past 1.6:1 without it costing a lot. Where are the other guys? 1.7:1, 1.8:1? We're at 1.6:1, and that's it. So, we're happy it did well. I'd have liked one of those electric water pumps too. We've done back-to-back tests, and that's worth at least 20 horses on a 440."
Even after winning our Shootout, Dick was still looking for more horsepower. If there's any question why he's become a legend in the racing business, here's a bit more proof. We didn't need any more evidence, but we heartily congratulate Dick and all the crew at DLI for their victory, and we send our best wishes to Mike Landy for a speedy recovery!
THE PLAYING FIELD
How level did we make it? We did the best we could. By working at Westech, we took great strides toward equality before ever firing the first engine. The SuperFlow engine dyno at Westech has gained a reputation for being stingy. It's been accused of reading low, but its calibration is checked on a regular basis and we know the powers-that-be at SuperFlow keep a close eye on it. Our experience has shown that it is always in a perfect state of calibration and its numbers can be relied on. The technicians at Westech understand the importance of accurate testing, and they also know how horsepower claims can sometimes be inflated. For this reason, they've nicknamed their dyno "The Polygraph Room," since it's proven to be quite the lie detector.
As you've already read, the Chevy has an electric water pump to offset the gains the Ford and Mopar had by getting solid roller cams. We also were forced to work with correction factors in determining final horsepower numbers, as the humidity and air temperature were both high on the day of the Shootout. The dyno was recalibrated prior to each engine's run, as opposed to just doing it once in the morning or running on previously determined values. All three engines also breathed through Hooker Super Competition headers and Flowmaster mufflers. By keeping exhaust products consistent and from the same manufacturers, we hoped to further even things out. All three engines also used the exact same Demon 850 carburetor (we transferred it from engine-to-engine) and burned gasoline from the same tank of Union 76 Premium. The same MSD ignition box was hooked up to all three ignition systems.
Could we have made it any fairer? Certainly, if the Chevy had a solid roller and a belt-driven water pump, we could say yes, but considering the task we had, we feel we did all we could to provide an absolutely even contest. Our sincerest thanks go out to all those who made this contest possible, including all at Summit Racing (especially Joel Fishel and Carl Prets), GM Performance Parts (especially Gary Penn), and to Dick and Mike Landy, Paul Pfaff and Gordon Jennings, and Mark Sanchez. A special thanks goes out to John Baechtel and his great crew at Westech. We promise the harassing phone calls will stop now.
ANALYSIS
So, what else did we find out about our combatants? We encouraged all of our engine builders to take advantage of their experience as much as possible. According to the builders, the Ford 460 had about 9.5:1 compression, the Chevy 454 had about 9.8:1, and the Mopar 440 had over 10:1. The expertise of our builders and the amount of attention they paid to the piston tops and combustion chambers accounts for the ability of these engines to run on 92-octane with higher compression. Surely, the aluminum heads contributed to the antidetonation characteristics, but none of our engines ever showed any signs of being close. We never had to back timing off to avoid knock.
The contest was developed to showcase the positive points of each engine design when compared to rival designs of similar displacement. If it's possible to tweak Indy cylinder heads to run over 10:1 compression ratio on 92-octane, you need to know this. Certainly, Dick Landy worked hard to get the power curve up higher on the rpm scale by effectively matching components to run up high, but the added compression fueled the fire. The port sizing and high-angle, single-plane intake were all designed with high-rpm in mind, so it came as no surprise the Mopar wanted to sing higher than 6,500 rpm, where the Chevy's hydraulic roller nosed over and beyond the optimal flow point of the Ford design.
We hope you've enjoyed seeing these three excellent street engines come together, and we're very pleased with the final results. We were hoping for power numbers in the 600-horse range, and we ended up with much more than that. The readers who win these engines will be more than impressed, and we hope we've been able to provide valuable tips on each of the big three's big-blocks. Again, we'd like to thank Summit Racing for their support, and we encourage readers to use all of the services offered by Summit. They want you to be happy with your purchases, and if you give them the opportunity to help you fine-tune your design, they will.

[Promodbike]

557 cu. inch out of stock block Ford. How many inches out of a BOWTIE?

[Sleek-Jet]

557 cu. inch out of stock block Ford. How many inches out of a BOWTIE?
That's so the blue-oval crowd can make up the power difference... :D :D :idea:

[DEL51]

557 cu. inch out of stock block Ford. How many inches out of a BOWTIE?
572

[SmokinLowriderSS]

572
Yep, 572CID, 650 or 720 HP. :)
How much $$$$ ya got to spend? :cry: :cry:

[LakesOnly]

That's 557 cubic inches from a dime-a-dozen passenger car block. Most any block, and not a special, less common 427 tall deck truck block or variation thereof. Further, there is no clearancing required to fit the rotating assembly into the crankcase.
And 557 cubes assumes using a readily available shelf kit; fact is that I'm currently assembling parts to manage 584 cubes from a stock block. Further yet, 604 cubes have been stuffed into them.
In regards to that shootout posted above, let me just say that I was disappointed in the Ford entry's build from the get-go. For example:
1) Most Ford enthusasts know that the edelBROCK heads are the lowest on the food chain of aluminum heads for the BBF and that the SCJ's (originally considered for the build) could have delivered more HP.
2) The ported flow numbers quoted by the entrant are way less than stellar among the capabilities of the better available heads. Frankly, iron D0VEs can flow those numbers once ported, and even better numbers if the person executing the port job knows these heads.
3) The HP numbers generated by the Ford entry can be had with the passenger car iron heads.
LO

[LakesOnly]

It was a 540 with 300 rods offset ground crank with a 850 setting on top of it. I think it was in hot boat. I think it dynoed @ 725+ on pump gas.
This is an old article and goes back to long before the current plethora of aftermarket parts were available for the 460. Lot's has changed since it was originally written, but if you want to see that way it used to be done, click HERE. (http://www.geocities.com/styleline58/540ford.html)
LO

[058]

Us Ford guys getting defensive??? Gimme a break....you Bow-Tie guys all froth and foam at the mouth and hyperventilate every time some Ford guy comes along and makes some Ford vs Chevy statement. How dare we desecrate in words or deeds the almighty CHEVY!! That PHR shootout was lame as the Ford guy seemed a bit lost as he is a small block guy and limited experence with the 460. The Edelbrock heads are a passenger replacement and not representitive of a decent Ford head. The Blackman[?] article is rather dated but then again so is the HRM article [April 1995-pg 60] I am referring to. The HRM 3 way build was simple: 520" maximum, 1-4bbl carb, had to run on pump gas and had to be built with readily available parts. Dyno tests were done running Unocal 92 oct. pum gas. Ford produced 813 HP @ 6800 RPMs and 682 ft/lbs torque @ 4900 RPMs. The heads used on the Ford were the 1st gen. FMS aluminum CJ heads and are now and have been for years considered obsolete. For the actual dyno comparason I'll need to find the issue of HRM that has the breakdown of the 3 engines that followed the build articles. Sorry Chevy guys...read it and weep. :cry: Chevy is no longer KING and a Ford brought it to its knees.

[GofastRacer]

This is an old article and goes back to long before the current plethora of aftermarket parts were available for the 460. Lot's has changed since it was originally written, but if you want to see that way it used to be done, click HERE. (http://www.geocities.com/styleline58/540ford.html)
LO
And they are still around!... :cool:
Fonse! (http://www.fonseperformance.com/)

[dmontzsta]

If its the article I am thinking of, the above statement rings true. I think the Ford guy outspent the Chevy guy, and of course the Mopar was the most expensive.
To quote my friend,
"Why is it Chevy guys just drive their boats, Olds guys just drive their boats, Mopar guys just drive their boats (well, most of the time and get a lot of attention if its a hemi), but Ford guys can't shut up about how much better Fords are than the others."
Note that he is knocking Ford guys, like they are trying to prove something :crossx: :D :wink:
WHAT? OMG that is so far from the truth, IMO. EVERYWHERE I go it is always a chevy guy that makes the stupid comment "If you had chevy" or "Nice, but its not a chevy". ALWAYS!
:rolleyes: :rollside:

[QuickJet]

Let's talk reality here. With little exception, Chevy powered boats clean house on the Ford powered boats. I'm not talking mega inch/ mega power boats, but rather your average weekend jetboat. Most mellow Chevy boats run 75-80 while the Fords run 60-65. Look through the boat trader or even in the spam section and you'll notice that not only are the Ford boats slower, their resale value pales in comparison to the Chevy boats. I know that there are a few fast Fords on the water, but for the most part, Cheverolet is dominating the lakes and rivers.
As far as big inch/ big dollar engines go, pick whatever make you want. All can be made fast if your just writting a check to your engine builder.

[jmherbert]

WHAT? OMG that is so far from the truth, IMO. EVERYWHERE I go it is always a chevy guy that makes the stupid comment "If you had chevy" or "Nice, but its not a chevy". ALWAYS!
:rolleyes: :rollside:
Look at this thread, the Ford guys are the ones making nearly all the posts. It only reinforces his and my thoughts. I am a Chevy guy, its what I and most everyone else out there is used to, but I am also smart enough to realize that the power level of either of the motors is a factor of their size and how/what they are built up as. With the right parts, similar inch motors are going to make similar power, no matter what the original brand is. They both are pushrod, 2 valve engines.
I betcha the main reason most of the high power motors are due to the fact there is simply a wider selection of parts available to the chevys; ie economies of scale . More Chevys were built, and face it, GM has had more performance enhancements available to the public. Look at crate motors available. Some of the better ones come from GM itself.

[dmontzsta]

Let's talk reality here. With little exception, Chevy powered boats clean house on the Ford powered boats. I'm not talking mega inch/ mega power boats, but rather your average weekend jetboat. Most mellow Chevy boats run 75-80 while the Fords run 60-65. Look through the boat trader or even in the spam section and you'll notice that not only are the Ford boats slower, their resale value pales in comparison to the Chevy boats. I know that there are a few fast Fords on the water, but for the most part, Cheverolet is dominating the lakes and rivers.
As far as big inch/ big dollar engines go, pick whatever make you want. All can be made fast if your just writting a check to your engine builder.
I wont even comment on this, cause I like you. :)
What you said can basically be used another way to. It is like saying "jet boats dominate V-Drives, cause there is more of them". It all boils down to HP, there are more chevys, which means there are more people bolting in easy HP.

[GofastRacer]

This is too funny, same old war going on for decades!.. LMAO!... :D

[fc-pilot]

This is too funny, same old war going on for decades!.. LMAO!... :D
The great thing is that this war makes the manufacturers work harder, and makes the aftermarket put out more parts to keep the war going. Either way, we all win.
Paul

[spectras only]

572
Del 51 , you can't call the 572 a stock block ! Like you can't call the 514 SVO a stock block either. Costwise the 514 SVO is cheaper than the 572 for equal HP [ 620 that is] .
I'm not a devoted Ford guy only ;)
Have this baby in this boat >
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/craig's%20interior%201
This LS-6 cost us about the same to rebuild as a 460 Ford .
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/LS-6%201

[LakesOnly]

Del 51 , you can't call the 572 a stock block ! Like you can't call the 514 SVO a stock block either. Costwise the 514 SVO is cheaper than the 572 for equal HP [ 620HP, that is].Actually, the Ford Racing 514 crate motor indeed uses a dime-a-dozen stock block that is no different than a block that was factory installed into, say, a 1979 F250 pickup, for example.
LO

[QuickJet]

"jet boats dominate V-Drives.
Believe me..........no one says that. :D :D

[INDY 1]

That is what i was looking for.

[jkh04200]

One time at BAND CAMP I wanted someone to stick something besides a flute up my p@#$y. But all they wanted to do was talk about ford vs. chevy :rollside:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

All any engine build and dyno run comparison really does anyhow is to compare a particular set of build-ups. I suppose the only REAL way to "settle" this would be to have engines built from each maker out of every posssible combination of factory and aftermarket parts. Then, the top dog really IS the top dog. Nobody claims "this part wasn't used, that wasn't used, that wasn't fair, etc". Of course, that would be about 15,000 Chevy engines, 12,000 Ford engines, and what, about 100 Mopars? 150 if if ya include 426 hemis with the 440 Wedges :D :D
Since that'll never happen, let the war continue! :argue:

[058]

I'm sure we can all find a dyno test that'll favor your engine of choice. Since that is all we have at this point thats all we have to go on. Enginemasters might be a close comparison but keep in mind all these engines were built for that specific purpose and little else. All these engines ran on the ragged edge of detonation and were set up for dyno use only. So do we compare based on Enginemasters, PHR, HRM or BMFD? Who knows. This pissing contest will go on until the end of time. Personally I'd like to see a 3 way build using iron passenger car heads, 1 x 4 BBL, .030" max. overbore for cleanup only, stock stroke and a flat tappet cam, all run on pump gas out of the same drum. Use a Enginemasters format from 3000 rpm to 6500 or 7000 rpm. HP and torque both count equally for scoring. By using iron pass. heads and a basiclly a stock short block that would be the best represenative of a true Chevy, Ford and Mopar.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I agree 058. Stock blocks and heads, allow ported heads, flat tappet only cams (custom grinds I think allowed tho, if the engine needs more than the style allows, tough. If there is just nothing more available off the shelf but can be custom ground, no penalty), head porting permitted but no aftermarket heads. I would personally limit to factory rods (find and use the best ones). If there is a weakness there, that's a problem the motor lives (or dies) with. Use all the aftermarket super-bolts you want to hold it all together with.

[dmontzsta]

Now that we have settled on specs, who wants to pay for it all? :D
I say use a stock crank too, but allow stroking. That way we can see which manufacturer is the strongest, we all know which crank will not snap. :D

[QuickJet]

To keep it all real, build whatever engine you want and limit each motor not to cubes but to allowable dollars. Give each guy 5 grand to spend on whatever. Then run each motor in 1 boat changing only mounts and headers. See who runs the number in a real world situation and not in some dyno room. Run it in a jet or a V-Drive.

[LakesOnly]

Well, 058, looks like this idea has finally come to its time. :idea:
Introducing the birth of the:
HB FORUM MASTERS ENGINE CONTEST
Rather than everyone start kicking around random ideas at this point on this thread, I'll put together some rules over this weekend that will more or less parallel this year's Engine Master's contest, except that the rules here will be slightly lower level, "stock block in modified form" guidelines.
Early next week, I'll start a new thread here in the Gearheads Section and lay out some "baseline" guidelines and rules. I will also offer up some optional guidelines that we can all discuss together here on the Forum and then decide which may (or may not) serve as a substitute for the equivalent "baseline" rule (such as stock rods vs. any steel rod, or .030" overbore max vs. 468 cubes max, etc.)
There is no use randomly spittin' out ideas here. The new thread starts next week.
:) Let the games begin! :)
LO

[058]

To keep it all real, build whatever engine you want and limit each motor not to cubes but to allowable dollars. Give each guy 5 grand to spend on whatever. Then run each motor in 1 boat changing only mounts and headers. See who runs the number in a real world situation and not in some dyno room. Run it in a jet or a V-Drive.So whats that prove? Whats wrong with dyno numbers? $5K is doable but there has to be some parity...same displacement, pump gas, 1 x 4bbl...how simple can it be? If you want do do unlimited displacement it ahellofalot easier to do a Ford than a Chevy. No aftermarket blocks, no tall decks, just factory passenger car parts, etc...be careful what you wish for as you are just making it easier for the Ford. :crossx:

[QuickJet]

So whats that prove? Whats wrong with dyno numbers? $5K is doable but there has to be some parity...same displacement, pump gas, 1 x 4bbl...how simple can it be? If you want do do unlimited displacement it ahellofalot easier to do a Ford than a Chevy. No aftermarket blocks, no tall decks, just factory passenger car parts, etc...be careful what you wish for as you are just making it easier for the Ford. :crossx:
If for 5 grand you can make a Ford out power Chevy and Mopar, then the Ford would win as more bang for the buck. To get real results I would put no limitations on anything. If for 5 grand you can buy an aftermarket block and still afford all the accessories to go with it (carbs t-ram headers cam etc) then so be it. I personally don't think any of the big 3 can beat a Chevy for 5 grand.
How much is left in the till after you stroke a Ford to 557 Cubes. Will you still be able to afford the heads required to fead the big inch beast or are you left with piece of shit fatory Dove heads.
The only limitation would be the money because let's face it, in the real world, that's what limits us all.

[YeLLowBoaT]

How much is left in the till after you stroke a Ford to 557 Cubes.
Thats only about 2k for everything inculding the flex plate and damper. With name brand stuff.( all new)
It really does not cost any more for a ford roating asym then it does a chevy.
The only real diff between ford and chevy when it comes to stroker kits is, the ford can go bigger. Other then that they are basicly the same.

[waterloged]

Chevy's are like belly buttons everyone has one!

[QuickJet]

Chevy's are like belly buttons everyone has one!
Yup, and like a belly button you look real weird if you don't have one.
Hey, if you can build a big inch Ford from scratch and fire it up for 5 grand, way to go. However if it costs 2 grand for rotating assembly, I don't think the thing is going to fire up on another 3 grand. Does the 2 grand include the block work?
Real world is starting from nothing but a stock dirty engine from either an LTD (Ford) a Suburban (Chevrolet) or a Polaris wagon (mopar). these are just examples. Now you have 5 grand to get it in your boat and fired up.
Taking everything into account....who would win?
I'm a Chevy guy.............show me some combos and convert me. :D

[058]

The only limitation would be the money because let's face it, in the real world, that's what limits us all.Speak for yourself.

[RiverRacer]

I'm sure we can all find a dyno test that'll favor your engine of choice. Since that is all we have at this point thats all we have to go on. Enginemasters might be a close comparison but keep in mind all these engines were built for that specific purpose and little else. All these engines ran on the ragged edge of detonation and were set up for dyno use only. So do we compare based on Enginemasters, PHR, HRM or BMFD? Who knows. This pissing contest will go on until the end of time. Personally I'd like to see a 3 way build using iron passenger car heads, 1 x 4 BBL, .030" max. overbore for cleanup only, stock stroke and a flat tappet cam, all run on pump gas out of the same drum. Use a Enginemasters format from 3000 rpm to 6500 or 7000 rpm. HP and torque both count equally for scoring. By using iron pass. heads and a basiclly a stock short block that would be the best represenative of a true Chevy, Ford and Mopar.
This has been done in NHRA Stock Eliminator for decades. Unfortunately, Chevy, Mopar and the rest are way off the pace. The FORD 427 MR SINGLE 4V Engine dominates--- and has for a LONG time. It has the field covered by 2-3 tenths. When you're running 9.90 at 130 mph in stock trim, THAT is a lot of power. The engines(Ford, Chevy, Mopar, Olds, Buick, AMC etc) are torn down to ensure they are legal, STOCK(built according to factory specs) engines. This is a no brainer, with the Ford's making 50-70 more hp in stock trim. OH YES, for you guys that want to stand up and cheer for the SS/A and SS/AA LS Chevies and Hemi's, the Ford's can't compete. YOU SEE, THEY HAVE TOO MUCH HORSEPOWER FOR THE TOP CLASSES. IT WOULDN'T BE FAIR ACCORDING, TO NHRA. RR

[YeLLowBoaT]

Yup, and like a belly button you look real weird if you don't have one.
Hey, if you can build a big inch Ford from scratch and fire it up for 5 grand, way to go. However if it costs 2 grand for rotating assembly, I don't think the thing is going to fire up on another 3 grand. Does the 2 grand include the block work?
Real world is starting from nothing but a stock dirty engine from either an LTD (Ford) a Suburban (Chevrolet) or a Polaris wagon (mopar). these are just examples. Now you have 5 grand to get it in your boat and fired up.
Taking everything into account....who would win?
I'm a Chevy guy.............show me some combos and convert me. :D
2k is for a big stroker package.( 557 ci in this case) Which is basicly the same price for a big stroker package for a chevy.
No it does not inculde the maching, BUT on a ford all you need to do is bore it out, blanace and then asymble. You don't need any major block work. Where as a chevy would have to machine the block to get even close to that number.( assuming is a OEM block)

[QuickJet]

Speak for yourself.
So if money isn't the reason why you don't have the fastest boat in the world, then what is.

[QuickJet]

2k is for a big stroker package.( 557 ci in this case) Which is basicly the same price for a big stroker package for a chevy.
No it does not inculde the maching, BUT on a ford all you need to do is bore it out, blanace and then asymble. You don't need any major block work. Where as a chevy would have to machine the block to get even close to that number.( assuming is a OEM block)
I understand that you can cube a Ford, however feeding your new found cubes can lead to much bigger dollars. I think that is the reason why there are so many 460 powered boats rather than 557's. Not trying to bag on the Fords just trying to see exactly how cost effective one would be over the Chevrolet. Chevy for years has been known as best bang for the buck, just wondering if things are changing a little.

[dmontzsta]

Did you call DOVE heads shitty? lol.

[dmontzsta]

So if money isn't the reason why you don't have the fastest boat in the world, then what is.
Have you seen this dudes garage? he has like 20 classic cars and 4 flatbottoms! One with a wicked twin turbo 466. :D You can only handle so much, next is a capsule boat and pro level.

[QuickJet]

Have you seen this dudes garage? he has like 20 classic cars and 4 flatbottoms! One with a wicked twin turbo 466. :D You can only handle so much, next is a capsule boat and pro level.
Damn........ :cool:

[dmontzsta]

Damn........ :cool:
werd.
:p

[jmherbert]

Before I start, like I have said before, I am a Chevy guy, because it is what I know, and in the end, they are all pushrod, 2 valve engines.
If Fords are so superior, why is it that NEARLY ALL extreme HP motors built off Chevy platforms???? I am not just talking boats, I am talking race cars, sprint cars, etc. that run off gasoline. I am not limited to "stock" blocks, or any other mumbo jumbo. Ford guys, believe it or not, most of the commercial chevy big blocks were tall decks. The mighty(?) 366 was a 3 ring pistoned big block tall deck.
There is nothing magic about either ford, chevy, or mopar. It is all about cubic inches and how they are fed, cammed, and exhausted. Nothing more, nothing less.
This is not rocket science folks.

[058]

If Fords are so superior, why is it that NEARLY ALL extreme HP motors built off Chevy platforms???? I am not just talking boats, I am talking race cars, sprint cars, etc. that run off gasoline. I am not limited to "stock" blocks, or any other mumbo jumbo.
This is not rocket science folks.For the answer to that you would have to go back to the early 50s when Chevy was being left behind the other "Low cost 3" with their Stovebolt 6 engine. Z.A. Duntov sent a memo to the head of Chevrolet indicating a need to get involved in and try to take away the "youth market" from Ford. So an aggressive performance and parts program was started to offer all the support, parts, and information to ANYONE who ran a Chevy. In their shortsightedness Ford let its stronghold in the Hot Rod world slip away. Ford's additude was "we sell cars, not parts" add that to the AMA GM enginerred ban on racing [1957] because Ford was kicking their ass all over the NASCAR and USAC tracks in 56 and 57. Although this has never been proven there is some pretty compelling evidence and rumors that Ford designed and built the first small block Chevy [265"] and sold the design to GM as they [GM] needed a lightweight passenger car engine and had none. Ford designed and built two engines, one for the US market and the other for the world market...but thats for another thread... :rollside: TA TA for now ladies...its off to the lake.

[steelcomp]

If Fords are so superior, why is it that NEARLY ALL extreme HP motors built off Chevy platforms???? I am not just talking boats, I am talking race cars, sprint cars, etc. that run off gasoline. I am not limited to "stock" blocks, or any other mumbo jumbo.That's a very narrow, LIMITED perspective, and couldn't be further from the truth.
Ever heard of a Cosworth? Probably one of the most successful and dominant race motors ever built, besides the Offy.
There's a big racing world out there that Ford's involved in on a level way above GM.

[steelcomp]

Have you ever read the book "Wheels for the World" by Douglas Brinkley??

[jmherbert]

Although this has never been proven there is some pretty compelling evidence and rumors that Ford designed and built the first small block Chevy [265"] and sold the design to GM as they [GM] needed a lightweight passenger car engine and had none. Ford designed and built two engines, one for the US market and the other for the world market...but thats for another thread... :rollside: TA TA for now ladies...its off to the lake.
I've heard that too, an old Ford mechanic I know said in a nutshell Ford designed the engine to a point, and decided they did not want it, and sold it to GM.
The rest of your post is IMO why GM motors are more prevailent in the performance world, plus remember back in the 60's and 70's they had something like 75% of the market share.

[058]

Have you ever read the book "Wheels for the World" by Douglas Brinkley??No, I've never heard of it. Is it still in print? Sounds like a book on Henry Ford, Correct?

[058]

I've heard that too, an old Ford mechanic I know said in a nutshell Ford designed the engine to a point, and decided they did not want it, and sold it to GM.
The rest of your post is IMO why GM motors are more prevailent in the performance world, plus remember back in the 60's and 70's they had something like 75% of the market share. IMO Ford screwed the pooch by letting that market get away from them. They had some of the best racing hardware in the industry at that time, unfortunatly it was only available to a select few people and the general buying public be damned. But thats not enough reason for me to switch.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

im a chevy man to the core.....but when your gonna go toe to toe with 058 you better have your ducks in a row.....this guy has some info... :)

[steelcomp]

No, I've never heard of it. Is it still in print? Sounds like a book on Henry Ford, Correct?Yes, it's about Henry Ford, His Company, ans a Century of Progress. Over 800 pps...hardback. I'm still reading it...mostly in awe.

[058]

im a chevy man to the core.....but when your gonna go toe to toe with 058 you better have your ducks in a row.....this guy has some info... :)I gotta have my ducks in order just to stay up with you guys.... :D :D :D

[058]

Yes, it's about Henry Ford, His Company, ans a Century of Progress. Over 800 pps...hardback. I'm still reading it...mostly in awe.
Steel, 800 pps...Wow, now thats some heavy reading. Henry Ford was an interesting man and many books have been written about him. Too bad his company has strayed far from his business philosophy. Thanks I'll check it out.

[Promodbike]

My Grandfather has a model T that runs 65mph. Thats FAST.

[INDY 1]

Did not mean to start this much crap, but it is fun to read. Motor is in and will be firing it up this weekend.

[058]

I've heard that too, an old Ford mechanic I know said in a nutshell Ford designed the engine to a point, and decided they did not want it, and sold it to GM.
.For anyone interested about Ford/Chevy V8. There was an article in a newspaper of an interview with an old guy who was a tool & die maker for Ford in the late 40s-early 50s. He was one of the guys who made the tooling for 2 V8 engines Ford was considering for production. According to this old gentleman one was an engine designed for the world market and was to serve both as a passenger car and light truck engine. The other was a lightweight V8 designed for the US market and for passenger car use only. When the decision was made by Ford to use the "world" engine for its use in cars and trucks the other lightweight engine was sold to GM for use in Chevys as the old Stovebolt 6 was outdated and Chevy was losing sales to both Ford and other GM lines.
Back then GM usually did not allow parts to cross car lines. In other words GM ran each division independently and did not allow Pontiac engines to be used in Chevys or Buick engines in Oldsmobiles. Since Ford was going to shelve this new lightweight engine GM made a deal to buy the tooling and existing parts from Ford. Hence the lack of part or casting numbers on the early Chevy 265 blocks, heads etc. The new V8 had no provision for an integral oil filter so a bypass remote filter was used strikingly similar to the Ford Flathead. Ford was developing their "Thinwall" casting procedure which showed in the castings of this new V8, a procedure that was being developed by Ford since 1951. This procedure consisted of more precise core boxes, better casting sand and a closer tolerance to maintain a more uniform wall thickness of the part being cast. So some of these casting procedures showed up in a GM product that has never been seen before in a GM product. The early 50s was one of the most stagnant periods in GM's history as they were more concerned with styling and "planned obsolence" This was the influnence of Harley Earl, Head of GM styling. Not much effort was put into engineering of engines, transmissions and chassis and their refinement. Now this was a time when the "Big Three" swapped parts from one to another if one co. came up short on some component. For example: Lincoln used GM Hydra-Matic transmissions in 52 thru 54 or 55 until Ford could develop a trans of their own. This practice carried over into the 60s and early 70s. B-O-P used a Ford 3 speed manual trans as GM had no syncro low gear trans for their intermediate size cars. Ford used a Rochester Quadrajet carb on their 429CJs because they needed a spreadbore carb and Motorcraft was still a couple of years away from manufacturing their own. I digress, there are several other small design clues in the 265 Chevy that could possibly link it to Ford. Things like timing cover design, intake manifolds that also serves as a valley cover. distributors remotely similar to the late flathead, fuel pump and its pushrod activation. There is alot more to this story and even a side story of Ford building a DOHC V8 for use at Indy in the mid-50s. Supposely to be run in the 56 or 57 Indy 500. I don't know how much of this is true or if this is based on half truths and rumors but I do know that Z.A. Duntov had alot to do with the Ford Flathead before he went to work for GM so that may account for the similaritys and his foot in the door of Ford. It wouldn't surprise me if he himself engineered the deal for GM.

[058]

Did not mean to start this much crap, but it is fun to read. Motor is in and will be firing it up this weekend.Start crap...hell I had fun... :rollside: Anything to stir up the Chevy guys :D :D :D Good luck with your build, if there is anything I can help with just shout.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Start crap...hell I had fun... :rollside: Anything to stir up the FORD guys :D :D :D Good luck with your build, if there is anything I can help with just shout.
:D :D

[INDY 1]

Smokin those those chevs

[wsuwrhr]

The final tally was the death knell for the competition, as the underrated 440 screamed up to 6,800 rpm after delivering 684 hp!
The Mopar won on all counts, maintaining 582 lb-ft of torque at 5,500-5,800 rpm.
We've never seen a naturally-aspirated 92-octane 440 ever make power like this before, and we were duly impressed.
Chew on your steak, I hope you like it rare, or well done in this case.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Before I start, like I have said before, I am a Chevy guy, because it is what I know, and in the end, they are all pushrod, 2 valve engines.
There is nothing magic about either ford, chevy, or mopar. It is all about cubic inches and how they are fed, cammed, and exhausted. Nothing more, nothing less.
This is not rocket science folks.
This is the best part, and so very true.
Every one of the big three has it's advantages and has it's own set of problems.
Brian

[dmontzsta]

This is the best part, and so very true.
Every one of the big three has it's advantages and has it's own set of problems.
Brian
100% TRUTH! I was just telling this to Dan (repo man) as he was Ford bashing me in my office.
:)

[wsuwrhr]

Three+ pages, and you Ford and Chevrolet guys are STILL arguing amongst yourselves.
So sad to see you all bickering like children over who is the FIRST LOSER.
You all got your collective asses handed to you by a -14/-20 cubic inch Dodge.
Face it, you are all losers.
I've been trying to tell you guys this for YEARS.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Dick Landy is the man.
Brian

[jmherbert]

This is the best part, and so very true.
Every one of the big three has it's advantages and has it's own set of problems.
Brian
Another thing, most of us don't have much if any factory parts in our motors. The only GM part in mine is the actual block.
I find that somewhat ironic

[058]

The final tally was the death knell for the competition, as the underrated 440 screamed up to 6,800 rpm after delivering 684 hp!
The Mopar won on all counts, maintaining 582 lb-ft of torque at 5,500-5,800 rpm.
We've never seen a naturally-aspirated 92-octane 440 ever make power like this before, and we were duly impressed.
Chew on your steak, I hope you like it rare, or well done in this case.
BrianMeat and potatoes??....more like Kibbles n' Bits....so It made 684 HP and 582 lb/tq....BFD! In my book that comes up alot short of the Ford at 813 HP @ 6800 rpm and 682 ft/lbs @ 4900 rpms. If you've never seen a Mopar make that then I'd guess you would be impressed. :D :D

[waterloged]

Three+ pages, and you Ford and Chevrolet guys are STILL arguing amongst yourselves.
So sad to see you all bickering like children over who is the FIRST LOSER.
You all got your collective asses handed to you by a -14/-20 cubic inch Dodge.
Face it, you are all losers.
I've been trying to tell you guys this for YEARS.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Brian
So Why is mopar so great? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

The final tally was the death knell for the competition, as the underrated 440 screamed up to 6,800 rpm after delivering 684 hp!
The Mopar won on all counts, maintaining 582 lb-ft of torque at 5,500-5,800 rpm.
We've never seen a naturally-aspirated 92-octane 440 ever make power like this before, and we were duly impressed.
Chew on your steak, I hope you like it rare, or well done in this case.
Brian
Welcome to the fray. :p I was wondering where you were to defend the mopar side. :cool:
Now I can get back to my popcorn. :D
Honestly, I was surprised there by the 440 too, and duly impressed :cool: .

[steelcomp]

So Why is mopar so great? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:They're not. They've managed to stay on the fringe of being a performnce player, but that's it.

[INDY 1]

Why did omc put a cobra jet intake on 460 stock heads? For torque.

[058]

Why did omc put a cobra jet intake on 460 stock heads? For torque.For a little more HP. Even with the port mis-match it was good for about 15 HP over the stock iron 4bbl manifold.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

i do believe......058 loves this thread!!

[INDY 1]

When I build a bigger plant should I get rid of that intake or use it?

[058]

i do believe......058 loves this thread!!
Ya think? :D :D :D Its been fun but maybe time to put it to rest. :sleeping:

[058]

When I build a bigger plant should I get rid of that intake or use it?
Need to know what type of boat, how big an engine, how its built, what you want out of it....etc. Too many unknowns to say.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

Ya think? :D :D :D Its been fun but maybe time to put it to rest. :sleeping:
aslong as it gets 4 pages like the msd mount!!!!!!!!!!!!! :p

[dmontzsta]

I heard the Ford side is ready for the face off, what about the chevy and mopar side? who is going to step it up!? :)

[Brian]

blah blah blah blah blah Ford blah blah blah blah blah Chevy blah blah blah blah blah Mopar blah blah blah blah blah...
Spend money. Go fast. There, it's simple isn't it!
:D
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that a decent F1 motor makes over 300 hp/liter on gas naturally aspirated... Of course 19000 rpm doesn't hurt! :2purples:

[wsuwrhr]

Meat and potatoes??....more like Kibbles n' Bits....so It made 684 HP and 582 lb/tq....BFD! In my book that comes up alot short of the Ford at 813 HP @ 6800 rpm and 682 ft/lbs @ 4900 rpms. If you've never seen a Mopar make that then I'd guess you would be impressed. :D :D
0 Fifty Eight....
I see 618HP, I don't know where you are getting your 813HP figure from.
You don't have dyslexia do you?
Carry on bickering with the other first losers.
:220v: :220v: :220v:
Mopar rules
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

blah blah blah blah blah Ford blah blah blah blah blah Chevy blah blah blah blah blah Mopar blah blah blah blah blah...
Spend money. Go fast. There, it's simple isn't it!
:D
My point exactly
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

I heard the Ford side is ready for the face off, what about the chevy and mopar side? who is going to step it up!? :)
I would join, but my alloy Mope is 4.5 x 4.3.
No stock stroke or bore for the Hondo Sprint.
My jet 440 made about 500HP with 9:1 compression. Hyd cam, Sb Products bowl ported factory iron heads, stock bore/stroke.
Won't set the world on fire, but it runs good for what it is.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

You first losers aren't going to take it laying down are you?
Brian

[LakesOnly]

You first losers aren't going to take it laying down are you?
BrianThe BS talking has subsided by most for the time being, Brian, and the competition rules have been started but are still being written. (Trying to cover all bases before posting them.) It's tailored off Engine Masters rules but more restrictive, if you will. Don't worry, you're invited. :D
Please stand by,
LO

[spectras only]

Anybody remembers this shoot out between John Colletti and Jon Moss ?
http://www.gregbloor.com/Duke_Out.html

[wsuwrhr]

The BS talking has subsided by most for the time being, Brian, and the competition rules have been started but are still being written. (Trying to cover all bases before posting them.) It's tailored off Engine Masters rules but more restrictive, if you will. Don't worry, you're invited. :D
Please stand by,
LO
I was, and always am, just messing around on the big three deal, they all make power, and they all have their problems.
Unfortunately, I am not in the business to recoup resources from building a specific test mule. However, if the rules accomodate my iron 440 I am currently freshening up for my jetboat, I would be up to making small changes and most certainly would bring it on down to Westech.
My input on the test....
.030 max overbore, stock stroke for engine configuration, ie, no goofy strokes.
Other than the pistons, no alloy long block components. Iron block and heads ONLY. Anything goes on work done to the factory head castings. Steel rods, factory or aftermarket, no aluminum rods whatsoever.
Stock firing order for factory engine configuration.
No 180 degree headers allowed.
Stainless or steel valves only, no titanium valves.
I think there should be a set limit on compression, and limit the fuel, everyone uses the same gas, from the same can, the day of the test. No alcohol, nitro, nitrous, additives or oxys. Motor to motor.
Single, dual or multi-carburated, naturally aspirated only. No EFI, or mechanical injection of any kind. No blowers, turbos, or any other associated power adders allowed.
No exotic, unobtainium parts, no belt drives, no 8 coil setups, no roller cams, no vacuum pumps.
If you can meet at least these rules, the engine I currently have ready can be configured.
Further,
Any entry makes a gentlemen's agreement, if they are requested to do so by another entry, they are willing to tear the motor down to the shortblock, on the spot. Allowing anyone with an entry to verify bore and stroke. Oil pan comes off to verify internal components, no exceptions.
Shoot me a call anytime if you want to chat,
Brian
909-883-3739
909-238-3134