BBC Oiling ?

[1stepcloser]

I have a concern about my motor.
Recently I did a mild make over on motor, it started out as a 95 454 "magnum".
I replaced the cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers with crane equipment.
The stock mercruiser oil filter adapter was replaced with a Rex billet adapter and all stainless lines, the stock oil cooler was replaced with a larger unit.
The distributor was replaced also.
The bottom end was left stock.
The heads, intake and carb were also replaced, but I dont think thats relative to this problem.
Heres the problem.
Prior to the change, the engine would produce approx. 30-35 PSI oil pressure at idle, and approx. 55-60 PSI above idle. Seems normal.
After the parts change, I ran a pre-oiler and the pressure was at 60 PSI. (the drill ran approx. 1100 RPM.) but I noticed that there was very little oil coming out of the pushrods, and after about 5 minutes, there was still no oil to the front few rockers.
I installed the motor and ran it up to break in the cam, all went well, motor runs good, but has 60 PSI oil pressure all the time.
I removed the valve covers to recheck lifter preload, and noticed very little oil was in the head. Concerned, I again ran the pre-oiler, and, again it produced 60 PSI but with very little volume to the top end, and it seems to take forever to get there.
I replaced the gauge and the sender, no change.
The pressure is being read from the point at the rear of the block to the left of the distrbutor.
I installed a mechanical test gauge, and it read 57 psi with the pre-oiler running about 1100 RPM.
I wil note that after the pre-oiler is run, it is absolutely covered in oil.
It seems as though there is a restriction preventing oil through to the lifter bores.
I remember back on early 396 blocks, when replacing the cam, it had to have a oiling groove either the rear cam bearing or the journal of the cam.
I checked tho original cam, it does not have a groove, nor did the Crane unit I replaced it with.
This is my first experience with the Mark 5 block, and as I understand it, it does not require any special mods when replacing cams.
Any ideas?? :confused:
P.S. I noticed that this block is reffered to as a "priority main" oiling system. I cannot find any oiling diagram explaining this.
Help.

[Infomaniac]

Maybe your preoiler does not seal off well enough to let oil by.
The lifters may not have enough clearance
Restricters are installed?

[1stepcloser]

Infomaniac:
Maybe your preoiler does not seal off well enough to let oil by.Seal off where? If you're reffering to the galley transfer area, I considered that, and as a matter of precaution, used the mercruiser distributor with the cam gear removed as a preoiler, and had no better luck.
The lifters may not have enough clearanceClearance where?
Restricters are installed? No, there are no restrictors installed.
[ February 03, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: 1stepcloser ]

[Blown 472]

One of my friends had the same problem, never did figure it out, he sold the parts as is.

[Infomaniac]

If the lifters are too tight in the bores, they will not let oil past to the next lifter.
Take the lifters out, run the prelube tool and look at the oil going into the rear lifter bore. Put them in one by one starting at the back. You can see if oil is getting past each one.
[ February 03, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[Blown 472]

Infomaniac:
If the lifters are too tight in the bores, they will not let oil past to the next lifter.
Take the lifters out, run the prelube tool and look at the oil going into the rear lifter bore. Put them in one by one starting at the back. You can see if oil is getting past each one. Dont the lifters have some what of a groove around them to let oil past?

[Infomaniac]

Some do and some don't.

[Blown 472]

The chevy has a passage at the back of the block to get oil from one side of the lifter galley to to the other around the dist, right???

[1stepcloser]

They're Crane's "Anti pump-up" pieces. I compared them to the originals, they looked identical.

[Blown 472]

Did you pull any galley plugs and look from on end of the block to the other with the lifters out??, maybe there is massive leak prior to getting to the end were the oil is not?? maybe the lifter prior to them are too loose and bypassing the oil back to the pan??

[LeE ss13]

1stepcloser:
They're Crane's "Anti pump-up" pieces. I compared them to the originals, they looked identical. Compare the location and the width of the narrow area around the middle of the lifter. Hi-perf lifters like Comp. have that area higher and narrower. This limits the oil going to the next lifter when the lobe pushes it up past the oil hole. A stock lifter has a wider narrow area that is always exposed to the oil hole and flows more oil down the galley. When I get home I will take a picture of both and post. I suppose this works well to limit the oil going to the top end .. but it plays heck on breaking in a new camshaft with high lift and stout valve springs.

[1stepcloser]

Blown 472:
The chevy has a passage at the back of the block to get oil from one side of the lifter galley to to the other around the dist, right??? Yes, I believe it does.

[1stepcloser]

Blown 472:
Did you pull any galley plugs and look from on end of the block to the other with the lifters out??, maybe there is massive leak prior to getting to the end were the oil is not?? maybe the lifter prior to them are too loose and bypassing the oil back to the pan?? No, I did not remove any galley plugs, just replaced the cam and lifters.

[1stepcloser]

LeE ss13:
Compare the location and the width of the narrow area around the middle of the lifter. Hi-perf lifters like Comp. have that area higher and narrower. This limits the oil going to the next lifter when the lobe pushes it up past the oil hole. A stock lifter has a wider narrow area that is always exposed to the oil hole and flows more oil down the galley. When I get home I will take a picture of both and post. I suppose this works well to limit the oil going to the top end .. but it plays heck on breaking in a new camshaft with high lift and stout valve springs. I really cant remember, to be honest. I would appreciate the photos if you can, though.

[Unchained]

I had the same problem years ago in a 427 BBC. The solid lifters that I got were supposed restrict top end oil. The hole that feeds the lifter and the pushrod was located about 3/16" down from the reduced diameter area of the lifter and in the finished OD area as opposed to the more common lifter oil hole that is located right IN the reduced diameter area. They not only restricted the top end oil, they eliminated it. I had to pull all the lifters and stone a flat spot from the reduced dia. area to the oil hole. That fixed it. I hope this makes sense. I'm pulling this from memory from 1975.
Pull a lifter and see where the oil hole is.

[wsm9808]

Is the lifter oil groove in the same location as stock? I have run into lifters with the oil groove too low(or a smaller base circle cam). A low groove will let the oil groove dip below the lifter bore when on the base circle of the cam and bleed off oil pressure before it gets to the rockers.
also, are the holes in the new push rods the same as the old ones. A much smaller hole will restict oil to the rockers.
[ February 03, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: wsm9808 ]

[21rayson]

one thing you have remember to do when you use a preoiler is that you have to turn the engine over. and run the drill so the lifters can run up and down in the oil gallery so they can pick up oil in the grooves of the lifter. here's another way to really tell just run the motor with a set of cut out valve covers its messy but atleast you will know. just a thought.

[LeE ss13]

Turning the engine over doesn't help much with these lifters. There is always one lifter up that is blocking off the flow. And quess what ??? The lifter on the left is a new Crane lifter. I took them out when I was trying to preoil my engine. That's when I looked closely for the reason it didn't oil the top end so well. Look at how high and small the narrow area is. This was on a .700" lift cam. I went out and bought some stock ones and they are still in today. (7 years later)
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Gearhead_Garage/Motors_and_Drives/Lifters1.JPG

[21rayson]

LeE ss13:
Turning the engine over doesn't help much with these lifters. There is always one lifter up that is blocking off the flow. And quess what ??? The lifter on the left is a new Crane lifter. I took them out when I was trying to preoil my engine. That's when I looked closely for the reason it didn't oil the top end so well. Look at how high and small the narrow area is. This was on a .700" lift cam. I went out and bought some stock ones and they are still in today. (7 years later)
http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Avatars/Gearhead_Garage/Motors_and_Drives/Lifters1.JPG look at the area of the wear marks on the lifter what does that have to do with the amount of oil that goes to the cam lobes.your are right about the amount of oil that goes to the top end of the engine. thats what you dont want so you dont suck the bottom dry of oil in the same respect as oil restrictors on a race motor with a roller cam.

[LeE ss13]

21rayson
what does that have to do with the amount of oil that goes to the cam lobes.The oil that lubricates the lobes, is generally the oil that leaks around the lifter. With the stock lifters there is always oil supplied to all the lifters all the time. With the Crane lifters, as soon as a lifter down stream goes up .300", it shuts the oil off to all the other lifters up stream because narrow area on the lifter rises above the 1/4" oil galley that runs from the back of the engine to the front through all the lifter bores. Granted, when the engine is running, I will assume oil makes its way to the front lifters, but I ran the preoiler for 1 hour and rotated the engine many times and it did not oil the front lifters enough to make me comfortable about breaking in a new camshaft. It is my opinion these lifters were designed to greatly reduce oil flow to the top end, cam lobes included, thereby increasing oil pressure. Anyway, I have a brand new set of these for sale cheap!

[flat broke]

Nowhere near the current opinion, but did you check the Rex oil filter/cooler adapter you bought? If it is the type that replaces the GM filter adapter with the 2 bolts, you may well have omited your oil filter pressure bypass (not a bad thing).
Since I'm guessing that you take your oil pressure reading right above the filter pad, when the oil was cold before some of the pressure would be relieved via the bypass and you would see a lower PSI on the gauge. Perhaps before the changes your top end was stingy on oil as well and you never noticed it. Now that you made a change, and you see the elevated PSI at startup, that caught your attention and now you've noticed an oiling condition that may have been with the engine all along.
I'm assuming your running a hydraulic lifter setup, in which case, you'd know pretty quick if you weren't getting oil to the front lifters, as they would never pump up and create quite a bit of noise in the valvetrain. If you've started the motor, and this hasn't happened, I'd go with the recommendation above to run a set of cutout valvecovers to observe the oiling while the engine is running. While you're at it, call Rex and ask them about the filter adapter and whether or not it has a bypass in it. If the filter pad no longer has a bypass, it would be a good idea to run a higher quality filter like a Baldwin. Not only are these filters stronger and have a higher burst rating, they also have a bypass built into the filter that will allow oil to pass should the filter become clogged.
Good luck,
Chris

[1stepcloser]

LeE ss13,
Thats the same lifter I put in! Although I no longer have the stock lifter to compare it to, I do remember looking at both of them and although they looked similar, I seem to recall that there was a reduced area in the oil groove. At the time I thought it was to increase the lifter body strength. :rolleyes:
Your description is exactly my problem. No matter how long I ran the pre-oiler, it was not allowing oil to the upstream lifters.
I am gonna go home tonight and pull the intake, and closely inspect them.
I have no fears about running a "stock" lifter as the cam lift is only .570. and the spring pressure is a very mild 276 lbs. open.
Thanks for the photo, it really sheds light on my condition, after seeing it, it maks complete sense as to why the thing did what it did.
Any thoughts on where I might find a "stock" type lifter?
Thanks again, and I'll let you know what happens as soon as I find out.

[1stepcloser]

flat broke:
Nowhere near the current opinion, but did you check the Rex oil filter/cooler adapter you bought? If it is the type that replaces the GM filter adapter with the 2 bolts, you may well have omited your oil filter pressure bypass (not a bad thing).
If the filter pad no longer has a bypass, it would be a good idea to run a higher quality filter like a Baldwin. Not only are these filters stronger and have a higher burst rating, they also have a bypass built into the filter that will allow oil to pass should the filter become clogged.
Good luck,
Chris Thanks for the input Chris, That was one of the first things that crossed my mind, as I know the Rex piece does not have a bypass.
However, prior to the change, the top end was very well lubricated, as evidenced by the amount of oil left behind when a cover was pulled, as well as the fact that I use a cast aluminum cover with a fill hole located directly above a rocker, and previous to the change, it would make a mess if the cap was removed while the engine was running!
I do run Fram HP series oil filters and I change oil way too frequently for the filter to become clogged. (if it did it would be too late anyway)
It's not a condition of not getting oil to the lifters, its just that there is nowhere near enough for my liking.
Thanks again for the input, I appreciate the help.

[Blown 472]

Would there be any disadvantage to running a new stock lifter on a new cam?
I had nothing but trouble when I ran comp cams lifters, tried them all, the anti pump up and the ultra wazo hydraulic lifters and the snap ring came out of one, when to a flat tappet solid.

[Hal]

Post your question at this site. They have some real savvy engine guys. I think you'll get a lot better info on your oil problem. Also when you go here put oil pressure in the search and see what comes up. If you own a chevy its got everything you want. web page (http://chevytalk.org)
This one is in the forums under performace topics where you will want to post your question and do a search on oil pressure.
http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB64
[ February 04, 2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Hal ]

[wideopen545]

try another filter i used the same hp filter and had all kinds of trouble high pressure at idle so on changed to a hasting hp filter pressure is ok
just a thought