Good better best?

[Chipster27]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
Hallett
Essex
Ultra
Lavey Craft
Cobra
Commander
Shockwave
Cheeta
DCB
Howard
HTM
Eliminator
Sorry, should have included the type of boat. I'm looking at an open bow 21-25 foot vee bottom. Budget is in the $65k-$80k range
I realize that everyone's boat is right for them, and what defines best for someone might not be good for someone else. Strictly on build quality and customer service, not loudest/fastest/most colorful.
Thanks!

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

This should get good. :rollside:
First off, everyone is going to want to know what your budget is.

[ChumpChange]

Build Quality and Customer Service are two different things. Make sure you let us know what you're ranking them in when you rank them. This should make two different lists as the best build doesn't necessarily have the best service.
I agree. This will get interesting.

[ChumpChange]

I heard that a company named Outerlimits builds a pretty decent boat. :)

[atomickitn]

what about dana boats ! :rollside:

[DILLIGAF]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
Hallett
Essex
Ultra
Lavey Craft
Cobra
Commander
Shockwave
Cheeta
DCB
Howard
HTM
Eliminator
I realize that everyone's boat is right for them, and what defines best for someone might not be good for someone else. Strictly on build quality and customer service, not loudest/fastest/most colorful.
Thanks!
Top/down
Howard
Hallett/DCB/Eliminator/Lavey Craft
Shockwave/Ultra
Dana/Cobra
Essex/Commander/HTM
Cheeta
Just my opinion and it doesn't mean any more than anybody else's......

[Chipster27]

Build Quality and Customer Service are two different things. Make sure you let us know what you're ranking them in when you rank them. This should make two different lists as the best build doesn't necessarily have the best service.
I agree. This will get interesting.
Interesting is true and I hate to do it, but I don't know enough about what to look for. I post on several other forums and this question always leads to a heated debate. Build quality is probably the most important. I'd rather have a well built boat than a poorly constructed one that truely test the customer service aspect of the relationship!
Thanks

[Powerquestboy]

Obviously this is a tough question because there are so many variables. For instance if your talking about Eliminator cats I think they rank very high but I dont care for there v-bottoms. Hallett is an amazing boat thats very well built, but I think they are way behind on their styling etc. I would put these boats in 3 different categories, and they are not neccessarily ranked within that category. Its just that Essex for instance has no business having there name put anywhere near DCB. These are only based on quality, rigging etc. because I have not owned all of these brands and dont know jack about their respective customer service deparments.
Here is how they rank in my opinion......
Best:
Hallett
DCB
Howard
Lavey
Eliminator
Ultra
Cobra
Shockwave
Essex
Commander
Cheetah
HTM

[NautiTwins]

I have a Nautique
But if I were to go custom again .
Here is my line up
Schiada
Howard
Wicked I for the lower river

[That Guy]

I would also take a look at Advantage...especially in that size range.... :)

[Havasu_Dreamin]

In my opinion based on build quality only and in alphabetical order within each respective level:
Top:
DCB
Hallett
Howard
Laveycraft
Schiada - quite possibly in it's own league though.
Next level
Advantage
Cobra
Dana
Eliminator
Essex
Shockwave
Ultra
Next level
HTM
Next level
Cheetah
Commander
Again, just my opinion.

[DCBDaytona]

Best:
DCB
LaveyCraft
Eliminator
Better:
Essex
Hallet
Howard
Good:
Ultra
HTM
Cheetah
Shockwave
Commander
Cobra

[havaduner]

I think you need to start by narrowing your search field a bit. There is a huge difference between a 21- 25 ft. open bow.
Start by decideing what you will use the boat for.
What are you thinking you want for performance (top speed, rough water handling)
How many people on the boat.
Etc...
Then, look at the manufacturers, see who has a boat that fits your parameters, those that dont, are then out of the mix. Then go to the manufactures see what you like and dont about the boat, (and the people that build and sell them)
Asking everyones opinions here to rate them for you will give you 100's of different answers....

[mondorally]

I think you need to start by narrowing your search field a bit. There is a huge difference between a 21- 25 ft. open bow.
Start by decideing what you will use the boat for.
What are you thinking you want for performance (top speed, rough water handling)
How many people on the boat.
Etc...
Then, look at the manufacturers, see who has a boat that fits your parameters, those that dont, are then out of the mix. Then go to the manufactures see what you like and dont about the boat, (and the people that build and sell them)
Asking everyones opinions here to rate them for you will give you 100's of different answers....
Logical
Grow a nutsack and decide for yourself.
Practical

[1stepcloser]

Eliminator is the best.

[Chipster27]

Grow a nutsack and decide for yourself.
Trust me, I'll decide for myself. I don't buy stuff to impress other people, I buy the stuff I want, and that most people wish they had/could afford. I don't think I asked "what should I buy" I simply asked everyone to rate them on their opinion of my criteria.
The one trend I'm seeing is DCB, Howard, Hallett and Lavey Craft alway seem to be at the to of everyone's list. That tells me that those 3-4 are probably worth looking at.
The boat I was considering is actually mid pack, and now knowing that it was a mid pack boat I realize that I need to expand my search. It's the only one I've really looked at and I don't feel like driving all over So Cal looking at every boat mfgr only to find out their boat is no better than a Bayliner.

[NautiTwins]

I'd say hands down for a 21 Stern drive, would be a Schiada 21 RC or Tunnel, Then a Hallett Vector and then a Howard.
If your talking about a V-drive 21, there is not much out there to compare to a Schiada V-drive !! Simply the absolute best !!!
I'd still own a 24 Schiada long before most any other 24's, with a stern drive system or v-drive, oh I forgot, you couldn't even get a 21 0r 24 w/o an engine for less than 80k.................to start.
But good luck, you will need it here with this thread, be sure you find out how they "layup" the hull, kinda important, also look into the quality of the material used for the interior.
DOnt send a guy to that shop. You will ruin it for him when he sees the rigging! LMAO. Seriously though the Schiada 21 RC is hands down the nicest boat out there.

[revndave]

Schiada Boats in its own league.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I don't feel like driving all over So Cal looking at every boat mfgr only to find out their boat is no better than a Bayliner.
It really can be an eye opening, as well as educational, experience.
Since this type of question alwasy seems to come up every so often I wrote down some things I would consider in purchasing a new boat. This is by no means an exhaustive list of things to think of but hopefully it is a good start.
1. Where do you plan to do most of your boating?
Topock up to Needles and Laughlin? May want to consider a jet boat due to the river being shallower North of Needles unless you know the river like the back of your hand. Topock down to Havasu springs? Can pretty much run anything there. The Parker strip? Again you need to the river well to avoid some of the shallow spots. Big River down to Blythe? Almost exclusively jets.
2. What do you plan to do when boating?
You going to want to water-ski? tube? wakeboard? Find a cove and just chill out?
3. How many peeps will you have with you usually?
If you're only going to take 4-5 peeps total, a closed bow may work, more than that on a regular basis you'll probably want an open bow.
4. What are you looking for in terms of quality? Do you care that everything is thru-bloted? Do you care if the hull has some type of coring to it? Do you want a kickass stereo system?
You can ask all of the questions you want and there are plenty of us on here that will answer them.
The thing to remember is that there a plenty of people on here that think their boat is the absolute best boat money can buy, that's called cheerleading, especially when they are way off base. There are reasons that two similarly sized and equipped boats may be as much as $15k apart in price, and it aint all profit. You get what you pay for. The boat industry is like any other industry, there is a definite tier as to who is at the top and who is at the bottom. Not everyone will agree on who is where either. Pick out which boats you like, based on the lines, and the functionality of it's amenities, how it's built , or because YOU think they have great graphics. Bottom line, get the boat that will work best for YOU.
Go to each and every builder you are interested in and take a tour of the factory. If they won't show you how they make the boat, leave. See how the boats are actually built. How do they lay the glass up? Do they use multiple layers of the same type of glass, such as only random directional glass, or do they use multiple layers of different types of glass, bi-directional, tri-directional, quadaxial? Is all of the hardware thru-bloted or do they just screw it into the fiberglass? Does the boat have full-length stringers or not? Are the screws on the underside of the ski locker capped off so you don't scrape your hand or your skis or wakeboard?
Ultimately, you're the one that will have to make the payments and be happy with your boat so you need to get the boat that fits your needs the best.

[Chipster27]

:D I was just funnin. I personally would never pose a question like that on here.
No worries! Like I said I post on several other forums and when a noob posts something like this it ends up turning in to chaos. Until I learn more about what to look for I have to turn to the advise and experience from you guys!
I have even gone so far as to not say what mfgr I'm looking at for fear of hearing they're the best/worst. Just looking to learn from everyone else!
I try to educate myself from the mags, but they typically favor whom ever is paying the big $$ in advertising.
Thanks all!

[SoCalOffshore]

Someone needs to give me a ride in a 24 Schiada. I really like them, but have never ridden in one. I will exchange for a ride in my 32 Schiada. :)

[mickeyfinn]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
Hallett
Essex
Ultra
Lavey Craft
Cobra
Commander
Shockwave
Cheeta
DCB
Howard
HTM
Eliminator
Sorry, should have included the type of boat. I'm looking at an open bow 21-25 foot vee bottom. Budget is in the $65k-$80k range
I realize that everyone's boat is right for them, and what defines best for someone might not be good for someone else. Strictly on build quality and customer service, not loudest/fastest/most colorful.
Thanks!
One thing I think you will get a majority opinion on is that you have a pretty top shelf list of boats. In my opinion if you take the cheetah and cobra off of the list and select from there you will get a great boat. Service may be questionable from some or any depending on what day it is. All of my opinions on the best boats comes from what I have read owners say about them here.I have not owned any of them.The cheetah and cobra I have owned and consider them to be custom wannabe's,cookie cutter style. They make a descent boat, just not in the same catagory with the rest. Take the rest of the list, answerthe questions someone else posted and go shopping. Whichever one you end up with will be a greatboat.
Just my .02

[HavasuHome]

If you are looking at a good open bow boat we have a 29 foot ESSEX in excellent condition for sale. And the price is in your price range. You can either contact myself or Havasu_Dreamin here on the boards.

[Chipster27]

It really can be an eye opening, as well as educational, experience.
4. What are you looking for in terms of quality? Do you care that everything is thru-bloted? Do you care if the hull has some type of coring to it? Do you want a kickass stereo system?
You can ask all of the questions you want and there are plenty of us on here that will answer them.
There are reasons that two similarly sized and equipped boats may be as much as $15k apart in price, and it aint all profit. You get what you pay for. . Bottom line, get the boat that will work best for YOU.
Go to each and every builder you are interested in and take a tour of the factory. If they won't show you how they make the boat, leave. See how the boats are actually built. How do they lay the glass up? Do they use multiple layers of the same type of glass, such as only random directional glass, or do they use multiple layers of different types of glass, bi-directional, tri-directional, quadaxial? Is all of the hardware thru-bloted or do they just screw it into the fiberglass? Does the boat have full-length stringers or not? Are the screws on the underside of the ski locker capped off so you don't scrape your hand or your skis or wakeboard?
Thanks Scott.
Use will primarily be Topock to Havasu Springs, Mead, Mojave. For the shallow stuff I have my SeaDoos.
Number of people is tough, It's just my wife and I, but I love to entertain so I could see 6-8-10 people on board, but don't want a deck boat.
Here's my basis for quality; I don't cut corners. I drive highline cars and know why an M3 costs more than a Mistubishi Evo VIII. Sure the Evo might be a hair faster, but spend any time in either one and you will see why one costs more than the other. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with an Evo, great car and one I'd consider if I didn't have the money to spend on a BMW.
I hate doing things twice, I'd rather spend the money once and not have to look back.
Thanks again everyone!

[mickeyfinn]

Throttle is going to kick your ass. So you would leave commander and pull cobra? I know, you owned a cobra. Commanders can be good - when the chopper gun is working properly.
Didn't take long to find someone who disagrees........I traded the cobra for the cheetah. Actually liked the Cheetah better, but that was me.

[Dave C]

with that attitude, my advice is to go straight to kool aide (DCB).... they will embrace you with open arms, you will feel right at home, and you won't have to do it twice... ;) ;)
J/K BTW.
Here's my basis for quality; I don't cut corners. I drive highline cars and know why an M3 costs more than a Mistubishi Evo VIII. Sure the Evo might be a hair faster, but spend any time in either one and you will see why one costs more than the other. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with an Evo, great car and one I'd consider if I didn't have the money to spend on a BMW.
!

[HYPNAUTIC]

Hey Chipster,
You may also want to look at Domn8ter boats. They make a real nice 23 o/b. As for the list, wellll, it should be obvious that they lay up and riggin on a DCB, Eliminator is far better than say a Cheetah. That being said, buy the best boat with the most bang for your buck.
I own the 24' Cheetah, gets me movin up to 70mph, big stereo (aftermarket), holds my family of 5 + friends. I have had minor problems with interior screws and the back seat hinge all of which were takin care of with out any questions. Oh, I forgot to mention I spent less than $50K for my boat :)

[Mandelon]

So quit dicking around and go buy a 25 Bullet from Howard or a 24 Nuera from Laveycraft. :crossx: :p

[Keith E. Sayre]

Huffpower and Havasu Dreamin--both gave real solid advice as did several
others here. Chipster--you're a smart guy it sounds like by reading your posts. Everyone obviously loves their own boat and will brag on it. That's
half the fun of owning it but read between the lines as they say and try to
answer Havasu Dreamins questions based on YOUR needs.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats

[Chipster27]

with that attitude, my advice is to go straight to kool aide (DCB).... they will embrace you with open arms, you will feel right at home, and you won't have to do it twice... ;) ;)
J/K BTW.
I'd love a DCB, and if a boat were my only toy I'd probably get one. I just need to make sure there is still some money left at the end of the week and not some week left at the end of the money!
Thanks again to everyone. I hope I didn't come across as a snob, but I do understand why some products and services cost more/less than others. I'm just trying to turn to this community to understand why it happens in the boating world, and you all seem like a great source to go to!

[ChumpChange]

Three steps to buying a boat:
Sell all your other toys(maybe your house too).......buy an Outerlimits.......take me for a ride. :D

[HM]

Didn't take long to find someone who disagrees........I traded the cobra for the cheetah. Actually liked the Cheetah better, but that was me.
I am not disagreeing, just having fun. Commander seems to have the most bad threads, but it was typically around how they did business. People I talk to in the industry says it was not uncommon for commanders to be light on glass and excessive use of a chopper gun.
If I were looking for a boat like him, with the budget, I would look at Ultra, Advantage, Dana, and Nordic. Actually, I would just look at Ultra and Nordic. But don't listen to me, I have never owned a boat that was made after 1974. :D

[Jbb]

I like Eliminator...

[Devil's Advocate]

I heard that a company named Outerlimits builds a pretty decent boat. :)
:) :rollside:

[Nord]

Eliminator is a great boat! Not just because I own one, but they really are probably in the top 5 boats as far as strong boats go.........
But their customer service is touchy durring certain times of the year.......
Though I must say, check out Shiada.........ride in one, don't just sit in one- that goes for all the boats you mentioned.
Good luck
~NORD~

[mike37]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
Hallett
Essex
Ultra
Lavey Craft
Cobra
Commander
Shockwave
Cheeta
DCB
Howard
HTM
Eliminator
Sorry, should have included the type of boat. I'm looking at an open bow 21-25 foot vee bottom. Budget is in the $65k-$80k range
I realize that everyone's boat is right for them, and what defines best for someone might not be good for someone else. Strictly on build quality and customer service, not loudest/fastest/most colorful.
Thanks!
you can scratch HTM off the list I dont thing they have a V in full production yet and none that small I think they will have a 27' and a 30' V soon

[jojoshow]

Find your size boat that you think you need. Keep in mind uses lake, river, and so on. How many people on avg. in boat. If your going to be in havasu I wounldn't go any smaller that 24ft. You have plenty of $$ for want you want to get.Good luck.

[TCN]

25' Howard Bullet.

[mike37]

25' Howard Bullet.
that would be my choce to
have only herd good and no bad on that boat
would love to ride in one

[TCN]

that would be my choce to
have only herd good and no bad on that boat
would love to ride in one
They are a beautiful boat and I heard of a few that are for sale right now because the deck boat has become very popular.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Thanks Scott.
No problem. Just trying to help out. It can be a somewhat overwhelming task, figuring out which boat to buy, so many variables and so many good builders out there. I'm always up for talking boats, as is pretty much everyone here, so ask away as while there may not be a right answer we all might help you get to the answer you need to make your decision. When you do decide, let us all know the specifics as watching a boat being built to your specifications is like commissiong a work of art, at least to me it is. Good luck.

[blackcloud75]

Someone needs to give me a ride in a 24 Schiada. I really like them, but have never ridden in one. I will exchange for a ride in my 32 Schiada. :)
You around this weekend............??????????????????
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1453111111.jpg

[Family4Day]

We are on our second Laveycraft and one of the number one reasons we bought was the customer service. When we first started the "hunt" for buying a new boat, we visited quite a few places. Laveycraft was one of the few that called us by name when we returned and that little attention to detail impressed us and has continued on. PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I know there are many manufacturers out there with that great customer service as well! Just the same, Laveycraft listened to our questions(and we had many!) and made every attempt for us to view, sit in, climb in and drive the model we wanted that was as close to what we wanted as possible. I wish I would have known about these forums before we bought, because we would have posted the same question you asked. Everyone has an opinion and all are valued for the information they provide. But narrow your search and there are many people on this forum that could probably let you hitch a ride in the model you are looking at, or as close as possible. After you decide on the manufacturer and model, get a list of needed options and the wish list items.
Then you think you're done, colors and graphics are not any easier! Good luck with your search.
Todd

[blackcloud75]

Huffpower and Havasu Dreamin--both gave real solid advice as did several
others here. Chipster--you're a smart guy it sounds like by reading your posts. Everyone obviously loves their own boat and will brag on it. That's
half the fun of owning it but read between the lines as they say and try to
answer Havasu Dreamins questions based on YOUR needs.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats
The "Grasshopper" Has spoken.....
Don't settle for anything less, Chipster.......
positive and negatives about every manufacturer...even mine(more positives than negatives)

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Then you think you're done, colors and graphics are not any easier!
Rare Koncepts (http://www.rarekoncepts.com)

[AirtimeLavey]

So quit dicking around and go buy a 25 Bullet from Howard or a 24 Nuera from Laveycraft. :crossx: :p
This man knows what he's talkin about... :cool: :rollside:
We are on our second Laveycraft and one of the number one reasons we bought was the customer service. When we first started the "hunt" for buying a new boat, we visited quite a few places. Laveycraft was one of the few that called us by name when we returned and that little attention to detail impressed us and has continued on. PLEASE DO NOT GET ME WRONG, I know there are many manufacturers out there with that great customer service as well! Just the same, Laveycraft listened to our questions(and we had many!) and made every attempt for us to view, sit in, climb in and drive the model we wanted that was as close to what we wanted as possible. I wish I would have known about these forums before we bought, because we would have posted the same question you asked. Everyone has an opinion and all are valued for the information they provide. But narrow your search and there are many people on this forum that could probably let you hitch a ride in the model you are looking at, or as close as possible. After you decide on the manufacturer and model, get a list of needed options and the wish list items.
Then you think you're done, colors and graphics are not any easier! Good luck with your search.
Good post. Great boat! :cool: :D

[moneypit]

I didnt read the entire thread but did anyone mention Nordic? :D

[SLOWMAN]

This man knows what he's talkin about... :cool: :rollside:
Good post. Great boat! :cool: :D
I too own a Lavey, 26 Nu Era.. Jeff and Chris (owners of Lavey) are probably the two most honest guys I know. There shop is wide open for you to tour at anytime they do not hide anything. Not to say others do hide things, it's just that when you go to Lavey's shop in Corona they do not make you feel like you are bothering them. Even if Chris is buried inside a boat he will always make the time to talk to you. If I were to buy another boat it would definitely be another Lavey. Go see Jeff and Chris you'll be impressed by boat build quality and customer service.

[bignet]

In my opinion based on build quality only and in alphabetical order within each respective level:
Top:
DCB
Hallett
Howard
Laveycraft
Schiada - quite possibly in it's own league though.
Next level
Advantage
Cobra
Dana
Eliminator
Essex
Shockwave
Ultra
Next level
HTM
Next level
Cheetah
Commander
Again, just my opinion.
Where would you put Carrera? Just wondering... :idea:
bignet

[Charley]

Based on the list provided, this is my humble offering based on quality, service, innovation, dedication to improvement
DCB
Lavey Craft
Howard
Eliminator
Hallett
Cobra
Ultra
Shockwave
Essex
HTM
Cheeta
Commander

[Havasu1986]

Based on the list provided, this is my humble offering based on quality, service, innovation, dedication to improvement
Lavey Craft
Howard
Eliminator
Hallett
Cobra
Ultra
Shockwave
Essex
HTM
Cheeta
Commander
How many of these boats have you owned to objective?

[Throttle]

I am gonna speak before I even read this thread, first I have to say its just not fair to rank them in any kind of order... you gotta think about what floats your boat best (meet your needs). :rollside:

[bordsmnj]

Based on the list provided, this is my humble offering based on quality, service, innovation, dedication to improvement
DCB
Lavey Craft
Howard
Eliminator
Hallett
Cobra
Ultra
Shockwave
Essex
HTM
Cheeta
Commander
i agree with this list except that dana should be in there somewhere just for their build quality alone. right in the middle.

[Throttle]

Throttle is going to kick your ass. So you would leave commander and pull cobra? I know, you owned a cobra. Commanders can be good - when the chopper gun is working properly.
r u ready for my reply...

[YeLLowBoaT]

I hear that you can buy any DCB when its 2 months old for 75% of what it costs new.... you just have to like orange. :rollside:

[Throttle]

One thing I think you will get a majority opinion on is that you have a pretty top shelf list of boats. In my opinion if you take the cheetah and cobra off of the list and select from there you will get a great boat. Service may be questionable from some or any depending on what day it is. All of my opinions on the best boats comes from what I have read owners say about them here.I have not owned any of them.The cheetah and cobra I have owned and consider them to be custom wannabe's,cookie cutter style. They make a descent boat, just not in the same catagory with the rest. Take the rest of the list, answerthe questions someone else posted and go shopping. Whichever one you end up with will be a greatboat.
Just my .02
your .02, here is mine...
I would strongly dissagree with your ideas of "wannabe cookie cutter style". dont watse too much time searching for the answer to this one... How many Powerboat awards are given to "cookie cutter" builders?

[blackcloud75]

I am gonna speak before I even read this thread, first I have to say its just not fair to rank them in any kind of order... you gotta think about what floats your boat best (meet your needs). :rollside:
Another "Grasshopper" has spoken......
who cares what name is on the side....

[blackcloud75]

Here is an example of some rigging to look for............ :rollside:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1453Copy_of_Picture_210.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1453Copy_of_Picture_226.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1453Picture_212.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1453Picture_227.jpg

[No Name]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
!
I would buy what boat you think is best for you not what everyone on ***boat thinks is best for you. Most people on here will tell you that the brand they own is the one to buy. Buy what is best for you and your needs because in the end you are the one that has to live with it. Don’t buy a boat to be popular, buy a boat to have fun.

[blackcloud75]

I would buy what boat you think is best for you not what everyone on ***boat thinks is best for you. Most people on here will tell you that the brand they own is the one to buy. Buy what is best for you and your needs because in the end you are the one that has to live with it. Don’t buy a boat to be popular, buy a boat to have fun.
Damn......another "Grasshopper"
Lots of wisdom........

[No Name]

Damn......another "Grasshopper"
Lots of wisdom........
You like that? I got that from a fortune cookie. :)
WTF is a "Grasshopper" ? :D

[blackcloud75]

You like that? I got that from a fortune cookie. :)
WTF is a "Grasshopper" ? :D
Any offers on the boat???

[No Name]

Any offers on the boat???
Are you kidding? Kachina isn’t even on the list. :)
I have it listed on offshore only also, lots of e-mails and a couple of low ball offers but no serious buyers.

[Hardly Satisfied]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
Hallett
Essex
Ultra
Lavey Craft
Cobra
Commander
Shockwave
Cheeta
DCB
Howard
HTM
Eliminator
Sorry, should have included the type of boat. I'm looking at an open bow 21-25 foot vee bottom. Budget is in the $65k-$80k range
I realize that everyone's boat is right for them, and what defines best for someone might not be good for someone else. Strictly on build quality and customer service, not loudest/fastest/most colorful.
Thanks!
What about Bayliners, they should rank up there somewhere

[King Karma]

I would buy what boat you think is best for you not what everyone on ***boat thinks is best for you. Most people on here will tell you that the brand they own is the one to buy. Buy what is best for you and your needs because in the end you are the one that has to live with it. Don’t buy a boat to be popular, buy a boat to have fun. I am supprised that Jordy hasent gotten wind of this thread ye. He usually pollutes the water whenever he sees a chance. :rollside: :confused:

[Throttle]

I am supprised that Jordy hasent gotten wind of this thread ye. He usually pollutes the water whenever he sees a chance. :rollside: :confused:
but everybody pees in da lake...

[King Karma]

but everybody pees in da lake...LMAO :) :D :D :D

[superduty]

I would buy what boat you think is best for you not what everyone on ***boat thinks is best for you. Most people on here will tell you that the brand they own is the one to buy. Buy what is best for you and your needs because in the end you are the one that has to live with it. Don’t buy a boat to be popular, buy a boat to have fun.
To stay in tune with the above comment, I'm on my second Lavey and couldn't be happier with the feeling they give me of being part of the family. Their true love for the quality of their product and customer service goes beyond most. As for the rest of the boats on the list, I think they all have advantages for one thing or another and I love seeing them all when I'm out on the water. :rolleyes:

[King Karma]

To stay in tune with the above comment, I'm on my second Lavey and couldn't be happier with the feeling they give me of being part of the family. Their true love for the quality of their product and customer service goes beyond most. As for the rest of the boats on the list, I think they all have advantages for one thing or another and I love seeing them all when I'm out on the water. :rolleyes: Good call, The best thing to do ( if possible) is visit the manufacturers and see what they have to offer you. Some builders pride themselves on things that dont matter to certain customers. Why spend money on useless options that the builder thinks you need.. Find what works best for your personal needs.. Are you trying to make the builder happy, or you and your family?

[rodnjen]

You have listed some great builders, some better than others, but you already knew that. Styling is a huge factor, interior seating, feel behind the helm, storage, etc. On the performance front, efficiency between 3000 and 4000 rpms, time to plane, ease and height of the swim step. No matter what, if you have a family you boat will be a utility vehicle. Make sure that it is well-built, funcional and meets the needs of your entire family. You have lots of choices in that price range, enjoy.

[acatitude]

Based on the list provided, this is my humble offering based on quality, service, innovation, dedication to improvement
DCB
Lavey Craft
Howard
Eliminator
Hallett
Cobra
Ultra
Shockwave
Essex
HTM
Cheeta
Commander
gee what a surprise.......... do you like orange?????

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Where would you put Carrera? Just wondering... :idea:
bignet
I was only addressing the builders listed in the question that was asked.

[HOOTER SLED-]

what about dana boats ! :rollside:
That's what I was gonna say. Dana 23'. Buy it NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rollside: :rollside:

[Charley]

How many of these boats have you owned to objective?
I'm not sure that too many people on these boards have owned most of thier list either...not really sure why I'm getting called out yourself and others but I'll answer. I have always owned cats .... Starting with a Crusader Picklefork back in around 1984 I built the boat from a bare hull and trailer I bought for $1000 and spent the better part of a year putting it together... I suppose we could discount others opinions for never having built a boat from scratch but I wouldn't ever think that way....just trying to make a point
since 1984
20.5' Crusader picklefork
21' Eliminator daytona
22' Eliminator Daytona
26' DCB Mach 26
29' DCB Mach 26
32' DCB MAch 32
I hear that you can buy any DCB when its 2 months old for 75% of what it costs new.... you just have to like orange. :rollside:
Cute.....Out of the 4 posts and comments just since last night on my choices your's is at least having some fun :D
gee what a surprise.......... do you like orange?????
WOW!!! WTF man?? ya I do actually, I think it's beautiful on the water.... I really like Orange...That's why I worked countless hours on my design, looking through magazines, and online. That's why I hired edukator ( a commander owner) to get me started and re tweaked it in photoshop till I was happy... btw I ran it bye a crapload of friends too one had a spectre another an eliminator and even another had a DCB... I like people because of who they are not the type of boat they own!
I have noticed alotta Crap on here lately, starting to actually feel the "hatred" kilr was talking about, it used to be poking fun but it's apparently beyon that now.... dunno what I have personally done to you but If you think all my $hit talking to Rocky, 3DO, Bling or any others is real it isn't... I'm just a smartass and those are my friends, all of which I like..... as far as wearing my DCB flag goes... yeah I sure do, for all the right reasons too... the boats are absolutely bitchen, they ride nice, expertly rigged, great styling (IMHO) and the customer service I have recieved from DCB has been above and beyond pretty much all I have seen or heard of in the boating industry....Yeah I wear my DCB flag high, Yeah it's on the top of the list of manufacturers asked about within this thread.... so here is a question for you blowncarerra
why the hard on? :rolleyes:

[Jordy]

That's why I hired edukator ( a commander owner)
Good call. Orange, blue, and green are the specialty colors of Commander, or so I hear. :D :D :D

[Charley]

Good call. Orange, blue, and green are the specialty colors of Commander, or so I hear. :D :D :D
I'm having a moment hear smartass.... put on yer serious hat!

[Dave C]

I take back everything bad I ever said about you because of this.... well most of it at least.... you're alright in my book.. even if you like the color orange! ;)
21' Eliminator daytona

[No Name]

WOW!!! WTF man?? ya I do actually, I think it's beautiful on the water.... I really like Orange...That's why I worked countless hours on my design, looking through magazines, and online. That's why I hired edukator ( a commander owner) to get me started and re tweaked it in photoshop till I was happy... btw I ran it bye a crapload of friends too one had a spectre another an eliminator and even another had a DCB... I like people because of who they are not the type of boat they own!
I have noticed alotta Crap on here lately, starting to actually feel the "hatred" kilr was talking about, it used to be poking fun but it's apparently beyon that now.... dunno what I have personally done to you but If you think all my $hit talking to Rocky, 3DO, Bling or any others is real it isn't... I'm just a smartass and those are my friends, all of which I like..... as far as wearing my DCB flag goes... yeah I sure do, for all the right reasons too... the boats are absolutely bitchen, they ride nice, expertly rigged, great styling (IMHO) and the customer service I have recieved from DCB has been above and beyond pretty much all I have seen or heard of in the boating industry....Yeah I wear my DCB flag high, Yeah it's on the top of the list of manufacturers asked about within this thread.... so here is a question for you blowncarerra
why the hard on? :rolleyes:
Wow! Looks like someone struck a nerve. :cry: :)

[atomickitn]

Trust me, I'll decide for myself. I don't buy stuff to impress other people, I buy the stuff I want, and that most people wish they had/could afford. I don't think I asked "what should I buy" I simply asked everyone to rate them on their opinion of my criteria.
The one trend I'm seeing is DCB, Howard, Hallett and Lavey Craft alway seem to be at the to of everyone's list. That tells me that those 3-4 are probably worth looking at.
The boat I was considering is actually mid pack, and now knowing that it was a mid pack boat I realize that I need to expand my search. It's the only one I've really looked at and I don't feel like driving all over So Cal looking at every boat mfg only to find out their boat is no better than a Bayliner.
as a builder of dana boats ...i tell all my potential customers to shop around , soo they can see and hear from everybody, first hand...it seems to me that people base their decisions on what others like or would like to own, from what another person has said to another.....go shopping and look at all and ask as many questions as you can think of and also look at customer service and what you are going to get for the money that you spend .....is this boat worth the extra few grand ..just because of their name? when you can get the very same thing from another builder for less with the same quality?....think about it its not like a car or truck test drive everything you can ..... and base your decision on that as well.....also look at how you and your family is treated in the showroom.......after all, what is a boat made of ..wood ,glass,gell,resin......we all get our motors from the same place ,there is only a hand full of billet manufactures that we all use in the ind...soo why does on cost more than another by as much as 10/15k..?happy hunting. :cool:

[Dave C]

no kidding... I love that AN fitting look ... I wish more boats riggers did this. Even the so called top-shelf builders only do this sparingly or not at all.
I am "marinizing" my next motor with AN's so the rigger will be forced to finish off the motor in this manner.
I figure they don't use AN's to save $$$$.. Its surprising that some overpriced boats come with cheap arse fittings. It makes me LMAO....
Here is an example of some rigging to look for............ :rollside:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1453Picture_227.jpg

[Charley]

Wow! Looks like someone struck a nerve. :cry: :)
I just find it odd or maybe even sad that someone takes anyones list offered as a constructive and hopefully knowledgeable opinion and they reply with
gee what a surprise.......... do you like orange?????

[atomickitn]

no kidding... I love that AN fitting look ... I wish more boats riggers did this. Even the so called top-shelf builders only do this sparingly or not at all.
I am "marinizing" my next motor with AN's so the rigger will be forced to finish off the motor in this manner.
I figure they don't use AN's to save $$$$.. Its surprising that some overpriced boats come with cheap arse fittings. It makes me LMAO....
that is not a standard rigging...it is all extra...and a lot of $$$$ to do this kind of rigging but money talks and several of the buildes can if not all of the builders can do this type of rigging it is just a huge extra that most dont care to spend the $$$ on..

[acatitude]

I just find it odd or maybe even sad that someone takes anyones list offered as a constructive and hopefully knowledgeable opinion and they reply with
Gee Charley, I watch you rag on everyone about there boats and why dcb is godlike, then I throw a little barb at you all in fun and you piss your pants....... chill out little guy......... its ***boat forum, remember..... I think your boats bad ass... I wish I could have one( probably wouldnt chose orange tho,lol, like every other dcb, but)........ another j/k Charley dont throw up all over yourself bud) :rolleyes:
and I'm not in to that broke back boating stuff. so leave my hard on outa this senior :p

[rivercrazy]

Based on the list provided (in order)
Howard
Lavey Craft
Eliminator
Hallet
DCB
Shockwave
Cobra
Essex
Ultra
Cheeta
HTM
Commander
Of the above for a 25 V-bottom, take a hard look at the Shockwave Tremor. Very well balanced boat between ride quality, acceleration, top speed, roominess, etc. And they build one of the better quality boats available with solid rigging, stout layup, great gelcoats, etc. They also perform just about all the build in-house from layup, rigging, interiors, etc. Their customer service is awesome.

[MayDaze]

Based on the list provided (in order)
Howard
Lavey Craft
Eliminator
Hallet
DCB
Shockwave
Cobra
Essex
Ultra
Cheeta
HTM
Commander
Of the above for a 25 V-bottom, take a hard look at the Shockwave Tremor. Very well balanced boat between ride quality, acceleration, top speed, roominess, etc. And they build one of the better quality boats available with solid rigging, stout layup, great gelcoats, etc. They also perform just about all the build in-house from layup, rigging, interiors, etc. Their customer service is awesome.
I agree very happy with ours....

[jbtrailerjim]

I hate to throw this one out, but if you could segment builders in to catagories of good better and best for quality of build and customer service where would you rank some of the known brands.
Some of the builders I'm looking at are:
Hallett
Essex
Ultra
Lavey Craft
Cobra
Commander
Shockwave
Cheeta
DCB
Howard
HTM
Eliminator
Sorry, should have included the type of boat. I'm looking at an open bow 21-25 foot vee bottom. Budget is in the $65k-$80k range
I realize that everyone's boat is right for them, and what defines best for someone might not be good for someone else. Strictly on build quality and customer service, not loudest/fastest/most colorful.
Thanks!
I'm not gonna waste my time with ranking the boats you listed. They all build good boats.
First off.. you can take DCB off your list if that is the size and price range you are looking at. There smallest "V" is a 28 Extreme. You probably couldn't get one built for $80k even if it was only powered by a 350 Mag with no options. :rolleyes:
HTM does not make a V bottom. So you might not want to waste your time with them.
If that was my price range I had to work with, I'd look no farther than a Howard or a Hallett. The other boats you listed are no where even close to being as nice of a boat (IMO) as a Hallett or Howard.
I'm a big cheer leader for Ultra but I'm not too proud admit that those two boats are a nicer boat than a Ultra or any of the other boats you listed. I love my Ultra. When I bought it, it fit my price range, size I was looking for and I feel it is a great boat for the money. I've been very pleased with the customer service and the build process was a very happy experience. I've had no problems with it.
My previous boat was an Essex and I had a 8 great seasons with it. It was a well built trouble free boat.
Good luck with your search.

[King Karma]

Good call. Orange, blue, and green are the specialty colors of Commander, or so I hear. :D :D :D Hey Jordy...you forgot your favorite color....WHITE... :cool: :) :)

[Family4Day]

I hope that it was not taken that Laveycraft or nothing was my opinion. I can only speak about them because of my 2 boats with them. Everyone will tell you that their manufacturer is best. And to be honest, they are the best in their own eyes or we would all never go giving them a huge chunk of money for something we thought was second best. Whatever choice you make for yourself and family is what you think is best. Like I had posted earlier, try and narrow your search to a model & size and there will be people on these forums that will have very close to what you are looking for and can give you some straight info. Lake use, ocean use, open, closed bow, cuddy - find what you think your family will enjoy for your time together! In the end, it comes down to people enjoying a lifestyle that allows us to be outside in the water and sunshine sharing a beer with new friends. And if you do chose Laveycraft, they do not all come with flames! I was just hoping it would make us look faster. Besides, my 6 year old thinks we are the fastest because of the flames! Sorry for the Hallmark Card type post!
Todd
You can share beer with all your new friends that have posted on here for you! :)

[Charley]

Gee Charley, I watch you rag on everyone about there boats and why dcb is godlike
I'd like you to show me where I Sincerely "Rag" on anyones boat except for the complete exercise in sarcasm I have with a few personal friends like 3do, Rocky or HH ..... It's all a joke.... as far as DCB being Godlike?? uh no way... I've argued that for a Cat and in lake Havasu type boating it has to be considered one of the top choices...as a whole package it holds it's own against just about all it's competition...
then I throw a little barb at you all in fun and you piss your pants.......
#1 I aint pissing my pants ....Ususally people throw a smiley in there to show they mean it as a barb... dont back track on yer shit now, it wasnt a barb it was just you takin a shot... Plus, i dont even know U...... taking a punch at me or my character wont go with out a reply...whatever man, I'll live, I'm just aint gonna take it layin down.
chill out little guy......... its ***boat forum, remember..... I think your boats bad ass... I wish I could have one( probably wouldnt chose orange tho,lol, like every other dcb, but)........ another j/k Charley dont throw up all over yourself bud) :rolleyes:
and I'm not in to that broke back boating stuff. so leave my hard on outa this senior :p
yeah... another cute jab at least you threw a smiley in at the end.... have fun being you :rolleyes:
PS Howard made my top 3, you own a nice boat too

[little rowe boat]

If it's quality and performance you are looking for, then these 4 are the only ones to look at.
Schiada, Hallett, Howard and DCB.

[Jordy]

I'm having a moment hear smartass.... put on yer serious hat!
I looked but can't seem to find my serious hat. Think I must have loaned it out and didn't get it back. Oh well, guess I'll just keep going down this path. :D :D :D

[acatitude]

:) :) :) :) :) :)
well kids I hope we are all happy now........
sorry didn't realize you were laying down, thought you were standing up :cool:
I think you can find anger management classes in da yellow pages........ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
yea howard aint a bad boat :boxed:

[THOR]

If it's quality and performance you are looking for, then these 4 are the only ones to look at.
Schiada, Hallett, Howard and DCB.
In order, bitchin, old school, over priced, bitchin

[little rowe boat]

In order, bitchin, old school, over priced, bitchin
I don't know about in order, but definately over priced.

[Froggystyle]

no kidding... I love that AN fitting look ... I wish more boats riggers did this. Even the so called top-shelf builders only do this sparingly or not at all...
that is not a standard rigging...it is all extra...and a lot of $$$$ to do this kind of rigging but money talks and several of the buildes can if not all of the builders can do this type of rigging it is just a huge extra that most dont care to spend the $$$ on..
Ours is. ;)
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/1024-2/Engine+1.jpg
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/952-2/Drives.jpg

[Charley]

I think you can find anger management classes in da yellow pages........ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
yea howard aint a bad boat :boxed:
LMAO... I'm not Angry, I'm intense

[acatitude]

[QUOTE=Charley;
I have noticed alotta Crap on here lately, starting to actually feel the "hatred" kilr was talking about, it used to be poking fun but it's apparently beyon that now.... [/QUOTE]
Charley 1st Im glad your not angry.. :) but if your feelin hatred from these boards then maybe a SMALL complex of sorts is settin in.....Don't take to much here personal little buddy...... Its all in fun............................
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...... well except the orange shiat :D :D :D :boxed:
and be careful how you say "pokin fun"" sometimes thats love charley,, not hate

[blackcloud75]

Ours is. ;)
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/1024-2/Engine+1.jpg
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/952-2/Drives.jpg
Wes nice set-up!!!!!!I want to check that thing out in person....
Cory

[Trailer Park Casanova]

How :confused: come Nordic is never mentioned in these kinda threads???

[HM]

How :confused: come Nordic is never mentioned in these kinda threads???
Um....you didn't read my post. I listed Ultra, Advantage, someone else, and Nordic...and then said I would focus on Ultra and Nordic.
But, the thread was pretty good at not veering off from the list Chip originally gave for evaluation - which I am quite impressed.
And there was no need to talk about graphics with pirates, trolls, and skulls - which is always a plus. :D

[HM]

LMAO... I'm not Angry, I'm intense
I resemble that remark. :D

[Goodtime$]

Buy it nice, or buy it twice. Buy the boat you really want. You will be stoked.

[framer1]

[QUOTE=blowncarrera][QUOTE=Charley;
but if your feelin hatred from these boards then maybe a SMALL complex of sorts is settin in.....Don't take to much here personal little buddy......
I'm a little confused.... What does Charles height have to do with him thinking DCB is the best west coast boat. If you disagree with him just put it on a boat to boat argument and if you make a good case you might even convert him :rollside: Besides they are the best boat on the west coast , orange or not :cool:

[Dave C]

Good stuff Wes.
no shiat .. AN's should be standard.
I've bought them. Many of them. It doesn't cost that much for AN's. PERSPECTIVE, consider the overall cost of the boat. The total cost of the AN's is a small in PERSPECTIVE.
We put AN's on our old crusty arse jet boats, for f*cks sake and those boats weren't worth shiat. These new boats cost 15-20 times more than what those old jet boats cost.
AN's should be standard but they aren't... cheap asses. :mad:
Ours is. ;)
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/1024-2/Engine+1.jpg
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/952-2/Drives.jpg

[acatitude]

[QUOTE=blowncarrera][QUOTE=Charley;
but if your feelin hatred from these boards then maybe a SMALL complex of sorts is settin in.....Don't take to much here personal little buddy......
I'm a little confused.... What does Charles height have to do with him thinking DCB is the best west coast boat. If you disagree with him just put it on a boat to boat argument and if you make a good case you might even convert him :rollside: Besides they are the best boat on the west coast , orange or not :cool:
I just meant he had a small complex, nothing to do with height.. the dcb boys dish out a lot and take a lot in return. he just went off and I am not a hater.... just ribbin him about every dcb lately being orange.... I have no idea how tall charley is...... I have nothing against dcb at all, very nice boat. a little pricy for what you get if you ask me, but I'm not here to debate that. I guess my howard brand new, would probably be in the same ballpark.. I'm just havin fun with him and I hope he gets that now.... if im hatin on someone I kinda make it known, and I think he knows now I wasnt.
No harm no foul in my court :220v:
and in reality the original post was 21-25 ft 65-80k. actually if thats his arena for a boat id look at a used schiada or hallet 1st .. and the thread took off from there

[mbrown2]

Nice setup Wes....that's a nice standard setup.

[blackcloud75]

Nice setup Wes....that's a nice standard setup.
Mikey,
You need that set-up on a 21 including the dual pumps :rollside:

[Chipster27]

Buy it nice, or buy it twice. Buy the boat you really want. You will be stoked.
True dat! That's what I'm trying to do. One lesson I learned from my Dad was spend the money on the good stuff and you'll never have to do it again. "A bad craftsman always blames his tools" I like to buy the best tools I can afford so I can only blame myself!
How come Nordic is never mentioned in these kinda threads???
I didn't mention Nordic only because I forgot about them, that's why I opened this up to you guys, to help me uncover all the mfgrs worth looking in to.
On a side note, I'm sorry to have started a thread that has lead to complete chaos and "name calling" I was afraid it would go that way, and it did, but thanks to those that stayed on topic. Anyone who spends the kind of money you guys have spent on boats has a lot of pride in their decision to choose what ever they chose, and you did it for you. Some guys are Ford guys, some Chevy, some Dodge, they are all good truck for what each person bought them for. A Ferrari is a sweet car, but it's not going to pull a boat to the lake/river. The right tool for the right job. God I sound like my Dad.
Thanks again all. FYI, I went to Lavey Craft today and it was the first factory I've seen. Looks like a good product and reasonably priced considering another mfgr I looked at. When I mentioned the price difference he said the other guys play the "start high, work the price down" game. I love a good negociation, but come on, if your that much higher I'm not even going to play the game.
By the way, those AN fittings and lines look awesome! Ironic comment about putting them on jet boats years ago that cost 10-15 times less than today's boats!

[Devil's Advocate]

New name for this thread, "My boat's better than yours is..na,na,na,na,na,na" :D

[mbrown2]

Mikey,
You need that set-up on a 21 including the dual pumps :rollside:
Everything except that last part sounds pretty cool.:)

[BadKachina]

If you want to do it one time go buy a Cigarette, Outerlimits, Nortech, MTI, Skater or Fountain(yes, some Fountains are in this league). Most of us buy off your list in the hopes that some day we will be able to swing one of those.
In your price range, but not in your size range is a customer of mine that is selling an '02 29 Powerquest. The rigging is some of the best I've ever seen, all the screws are indexed on the entire boat(rub rail, cleats, hardware, etc.), tons of cushon clamps, everything that could be through bolted, is through bolted, just clean as clean can get. I don't know how they ride or how fast they are but I've been through that boat and there are no shortcuts anywhere. He wants about 70k or so for it, he recently lost an injector, and burnt a piston up. Instead of repairing it he ordered a brand new motor from Merc to replace it. I don't mean a short block or long block, I mean a complete drop in, accessories and all(hook up the harness, fuel line, cables and fire it up). In the mean time he put new injectors on the other motor just to be safe. That's the kind of condition this boat is in. Just my .02 cents, but if I was looking I would at least check this boat out.

[Havasu1986]

[QUOTE=Charley]I'm not sure that too many people on these boards have owned most of thier list either...not really sure why I'm getting called out yourself and others but I'll answer.
Sorry Charley, I had more more beers then golf holes yesterday when I typed in my response to your post. Now that I have read what I wrote, I regret the cheap shot. DCB rocks, even though I would have to sell my house in Havi to buy one.

[No Name]

[QUOTE=Charley]I'm not sure that too many people on these boards have owned most of thier list either...not really sure why I'm getting called out yourself and others but I'll answer.
Sorry Charley, I had more more beers then golf holes yesterday when I typed in my response to your post. Now that I have read what I wrote, I regret the cheap shot. DCB rocks, even though I would have to sell my house in Havi to buy one.
I liked your drunk post better. :D :D

[AirtimeLavey]

New name for this thread, "My boat's better than yours is..na,na,na,na,na,na" :D
LMAO...That's not just this thread. You ought just copy that post, cause you'll find a place for it at least once a day. I drive a Lavey, so maybe I'll just use it myself... :D :p