PDA

View Full Version : Hey Froggy... An idea/question for ya...



Scarab Jet
07-24-2006, 11:48 AM
Any chance that you might be offering a smaller version of the Revolution any time soon? Something in the 20-21 foot range with a single jet but the same awesome configuration as the Revolution...
As far as I know, Ultra is the only mfgr that offers a deck boat with a jet in that range (the 21 Shadow Deck) and it would be nice to have an alternative; besides the fact of a much better interior layout (which yours has a definite advantage on)...
With the trend toward downsizing nowadays, I think it would be a great product line to offer as an option to the already fantastic Revolution...
I am of the belief that there will be lots of folks waiting in line for something smaller and less expensive [given the current/near future trend]...
Mike...

Tom Brown
07-24-2006, 11:51 AM
... and when you're done that, how about a 10 foot outboard powered revolution? :cool:

Freak
07-24-2006, 11:51 AM
I don't think his boat is too big. I think fuel efficient outboards would be the ticket. I realize you loose some benfits from the current config but I think fuel efficiency will be a greater selling point now. My how things are changing.

Tom Brown
07-24-2006, 11:57 AM
I'd be curious to hear what the fuel economy of a revolution is, in current form.
The thing about making a light, efficient boat is that it will inherently have better fuel economy than a heavier, less optimized boat. He could probably do better with outboards but that would crap on the whole nature of the deck boat. Personally, I think the Trident design and implementation has nuclear levels of optimization and it would be a crime to start changing a bunch of stuff to follow a fad when the current package is tight as hell.
I'm ready to buy a position for a 10'er, though. :D

HCS
07-24-2006, 12:01 PM
I wouldn't put clamp ons on that boat. That would ruin the idea of deck boat.
A small version you could run the ski course in might be nice. :rolleyes: :D

Freak
07-24-2006, 12:20 PM
I'd be curious to hear what the fuel economy of a revolution is, in current form.
The thing about making a light, efficient boat is that it will inherently have better fuel economy than a heavier, less optimized boat. He could probably do better with outboards but that would crap on the whole nature of the deck boat. Personally, I think the Trident design and implementation has nuclear levels of optimization and it would be a crime to start changing a bunch of stuff to follow a fad when the current package is tight as hell.
I'm ready to buy a position for a 10'er, though. :D
Me no understand....
Fad? Explain please???
Crap the whole nature of a deck boat? Explain please?

Froggystyle
07-24-2006, 12:30 PM
In the teams, one of the surest ways to ensure you never saw "real world" action was to chase a war. Changing teams to follow a conflict, changing rates to allow you to better suit yourself for a deploying role etc... Inevitably, for every time you change to SEAL Team One to go to war in East Timor, a Gulf War crops up and Team Three is out the door... It just works out like that...
I am feeling the same way about the boat business right now. We built the Revolution the way we did for a variety of reasons. We needed it large enough to warrant a higher pricetag. I knew we were going to have an expensive build on our hands, so the increased length would help pay for that. Frankly, if I built the Revolution as a 24' boat it would be the same price.
So, where does the Revolution stop when we reduce in size? I would still have infusion, which is expensive and probably as difficult to infuse and spendy as the 27' version.. (All of the energy goes into the stern and bow... everything else is along for the ride). Fiberglass is a commodity material, so there are minimal gains to be had from a pure reduction in hull construction material.
We would essentially remove the rear seating area in favor of a shorter length, but that would only get me four feet or so. It would stay 8.5" wide for utilities sake, so I think it would end up kind of squatty looking.
I have thought about it a lot. My conclusion is the following... 27' is the perfect length for a deck boat. The dual drive jet is the perfect drive, and our motor, while overkill, is the best way to make a lot of torque and horsepower on a reasonable budget. I could take away 300 horsepower and barely lose any cost. (I can also gain 500 and not incur any additional cost).
So, a non-turbocharged, fuel injected dual jet drive revolution around 23' would end up being about $105K all done up Trident style... Any takers?
BTW... we are about to put the Revolution on sale for a much lower than retail price now that we have moved the first two. If you are even slightly interested, you will want to make sure you are registered on our website for the updates as that is how we are releasing the information about the offering.
I love 21' boats. I just don't think I can build them profitably in the manner I would want to.

HCS
07-24-2006, 12:36 PM
So I take it the Arneson drive will not be an option?

Froggystyle
07-24-2006, 12:42 PM
Me no understand....
Fad? Explain please???
Crap the whole nature of a deck boat? Explain please?
What Tom means by fad is the short term market shift due to fuel prices. People are asking about economy that have never concerned themselves with it before. I could chase that trend, or "fad" and cash in, but not deliver the best boat for the genre...
The nature of a deck boat changed once we hit the market. We showed a capability of tucking the entire engine and drive package away and opening up the entire stern of the boat. The removal of the props allows much easier access from the back and is a ton safer. I don't think he meant in particular that it craps on the nature of a normal deckboat, but it certainly would not be considered the drive option of choice considering the utility you would forego for the outboard option.
Our dual jets are far more economical than a prop in cruise, but they absolutely are brutal to your Chevron card at full throttle. We are working hard at increasing the cruise speed from a previous 45 to 70 in the Revolution and make gains on top speed at the same time. When all is said and done, I feel we will be more efficient than a comparable stern drive, and with a greatly improved performance envelope as well.
Time will tell. I don't see the Revolution getting smaller, but I do see the need for a smaller deck. I see it as another ground up development though, and I don't see starting it anytime soon.
I have a couple ideas on my plate though. One is a hard-deck version of the Revolution for increased offshore capability and the ability to overnight on board. Huge salon, usefull sized bunk and easy access to the under-bow area would be mandatory and expected. The second is a kick-ass military/LE variant for search and rescue, littoral attack and riverine gunship support.
Lots of obstacles to overcome first though. Not the least of which is who wants boat #4? :D

Froggystyle
07-24-2006, 12:44 PM
So I take it the Arneson drive will not be an option?
Not true. With the enclosed drive housing and large swimstep we have, we are strongly considering a duo-prop counter rotating surface drive currently. It would be concealed completely and offer us a truly blistering top speed with our current weight and power. Holeshot would suffer to a degree, but the sheer lack of draft on the boat means that the drive would begin to surface at about 10mph, which means greatly increased performance over a standard layup boat with the same drive.
Nothing is off the plate. We consider anything.

Tom Brown
07-24-2006, 12:45 PM
Fad? Explain please???
You know that naru jacket you like to wear sometimes...

Infomaniac
07-24-2006, 12:48 PM
Is Pulse Drive still around? I was always impressed with that one.

Froggystyle
07-24-2006, 12:56 PM
Is Pulse Drive still around? I was always impressed with that one.
It is around but a band-aid. You still need the jet drive housing, and it just swings around off the back of it. That puts the output about 8" above the keel line and neccessitates a long shaft and lots of angle.
The one we are looking at pierces the transom at about 4" up and drops over it's length. Essentially, the center of the hub splits the waterline at speed. Tough to use with a heavy boat, but the top of the prop would be out of the water at rest damn near, and we would be able to surface it almost immediately.

HCS
07-24-2006, 01:00 PM
Not true. With the enclosed drive housing and large swimstep we have, we are strongly considering a duo-prop counter rotating surface drive currently. It would be concealed completely and offer us a truly blistering top speed with our current weight and power. Holeshot would suffer to a degree, but the sheer lack of draft on the boat means that the drive would begin to surface at about 10mph, which means greatly increased performance over a standard layup boat with the same drive.
Nothing is off the plate. We consider anything.
Hmmm...I'll keep that in mind when I work up my order. Sounds like turning radius would suffer.

Froggystyle
07-24-2006, 01:22 PM
Hmmm...I'll keep that in mind when I work up my order. Sounds like turning radius would suffer.
Could be. We need to try one and see. You would think that our turning radius would suck but it is actually amazing. With the boat drafting so little, it is easy to skid around in the water.

DCBDaytona
07-24-2006, 01:30 PM
Not knocking Trident at all, just curious...Has one Revolution been sold to the public yet? All I've seen is Wes' personal boat.

Froggystyle
07-24-2006, 02:00 PM
Not knocking Trident at all, just curious...Has one Revolution been sold to the public yet? All I've seen is Wes' personal boat.
Two have. We are about to build #4 and #5 as well.
Look for #2 to hit Havasu where it will call home the first week of August. The second will probably have similar stomping grounds, but not based strictly there. It will deliver towards the end of August we are hoping...

Scarab Jet
07-24-2006, 02:29 PM
I love 21' boats. I just don't think I can build them profitably in the manner I would want to.
That's what I was afraid you were gonna say... I am not really as concerned about the fuel economy as the following:
1) smaller boat = ease of launch
2) smaller boat = ease of towing
3) I don't need to have 20 people on the boat at one time, as long as I can have 8 to 10 in it comfortably, it will meet my need
4) I like a deck because it will give me [and my passengers] much better ride than a V-hull and since I strictly boat on the River, I'll have the ability to have a shallower draft with a deck than a comprable V [that would offer me the same comfort and space]
5) Personally, one of the things that I love about your boat is the fact that it uses jetdrives [real jets that is, not Sea-doo or Yamaha variants]... I've been around boats long enough to realize that boatin' on the river [although not impossible with prop] is much easier with jets
I can list more reasons why I would love to have Revolution in a 21 footer, but I totally understand why you wouldn't be interested in building one [per your well articulated explanation]...
Oh, well... maybe one of these days somebody will do one... Again, I think that it would be a dynamite combo (jet driven with the utility of a deck).
Thanx again for your reponse...
Mike...

hottrodder
07-24-2006, 02:41 PM
I don't mean to hijack a thought provoking thread but thought readers should know there's a 22' deckboat out there now with a jet option. It's style is very polarizing but here it is.
http://www.placecraftboats.com/images/stepcatpage.jpg

Mandelon
07-24-2006, 02:53 PM
The Placecraft 21 has been around for a long time. Longer than any other that I can remember. I think they may have been relative pioneers for the 21 jet deck boat. I think they missed the boat (LOL) by not going bigger, sooner.
The Ultra 21 deck is a heck of a nice ride too, but they sure are spendy..... :cool:

LOWRIVER2
07-24-2006, 03:15 PM
Ultra's hull was around as Tom Papp's before the Placecraft. The Place family owned one of these and made the Placecraft as an improvement in their opinion. Placecraft just sold that mold to another company and makes a 23 now with a molded swimstep as well as the newer larger models.

GunninGopher
07-24-2006, 04:38 PM
Anyone ever heard of Silhouette?
They were building a ±21' deck jet here in El Cajon in the way early 90's. I think I heard back then that it was a dog without a lot of power and a bit of a wet ride. It looks like the Tom Papp one to me, but I don't remember some of the specifics.

Boatlesss
07-27-2006, 07:19 PM
Who makes a counter rotating surface drive?

Riverkid
07-27-2006, 07:33 PM
Arneson does. :)
These are on my buddy Tim's 63' Baia...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2880Baia_Azzura_63_009_Large_.jpg

Tom Brown
07-27-2006, 08:20 PM
Tim should fit that Baja out with a pair of 250XS outboards and save on fuel. :cool:

Riverkid
07-27-2006, 08:25 PM
It's a 63' Baia Azzura with twin 1300 MTU diesels. A 60mph 48K# boat. I think it runs great, as is... :)
www.baiayachts.net
Nice yachts. The OB's might get it out of the harbor, though... And the 8 foot swimstep covering the Arnesons will be a prob, too.

Tom Brown
07-27-2006, 08:31 PM
He should cut the swim step off. Outboards are all about light weight performance. :cool:

Riverkid
07-27-2006, 08:32 PM
I'll speak with him directly about that tomorrow...

Tom Brown
07-27-2006, 08:33 PM
Don't be afraid to really sell it. :cool:
:D :D :D

Riverkid
07-27-2006, 08:35 PM
But then what the hell do we do with these???
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2880Baia_Azzura_63_030_Large_.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2880IMG_0468_Large_.JPG

Boatlesss
07-27-2006, 09:58 PM
Now that's a boat.

HCS
07-27-2006, 10:12 PM
He should cut the swim step off. Outboards are all about light weight performance. :cool:
Look. It's not a James Bond ramp jumper.
What do you want? A deck boat that sounds like a blender? NOT!
Come'on Brown.....It's not a wave jumper!
You Clampers never give up.