Run it or Rebuild it? Need everyones opinion.

[Infomaniac]

Before looking at the pics. I have run it for about 2 seasons. First season with watered down oil. Fixed the block pressure the second year. Never any metal in the filter. Ran wide open several passes each week during the season. Compression is good. Minor pitting in the cyls from alcohol. Has only been out 1 time last year since valve job and new springs and roller lifters.
Turned it over and took a random sample of the #1 main bearing and #4 rod bearing. just looked at the ones easy to get to. I expected to see bad bearings because of the water.
Bearings are good. Strange shadows in the pics. Sludge in the bottom of the pan from water - alcohol and whatever else.
**************************************************
Clean the pan and put it back in?
Keep looking until I find an reason to tear it down?
Rebuild it anyway? Rebuild will be 5k with new crank - rods - pistons - and shaft rockers.
What Would You Do?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/211Main_Bearing.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/211Rod_Bearing.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/211Sludge.jpg
[ May 21, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[Infomaniac]

Kind of looks like a spider huh? Pay no attention to the silicone job. One of those in the boat behind the motor plate barely reach deals.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/504/211Spider.jpg

[Kindsvater Flat]

By the looks of the bearings. I would clean the pan and run it. Although with the money made on that whipple motor you built its totally up to you. :D

[Snowboat]

I had water problems for the past two years in my blown Biesemeyer. This year, due to a couple of changes, I expect those problems to go away. I have added a bypass valve to the engine and intercooler and installed both a Tee valve and a shut off to the Tee valve. Fiat sold me a tall deck block and gave me some good advice about engine building. I have followed them to a T and will fire it up the day after tomorrow. It was much simpler slamming a stocker together. Too much knowledge has made the pitfalls deeper. Regarding the water------I had water in the engine, to some degree for two years and the bearings were perfect. The engine ran 6500 to 7200 regularly, for medium length runs, 9200 max. This is my personal belief about water and condensation in the oil. Water is bad, glycol is way worse, watery oil lubricates better than glycol in a severe duty engine. Diesel engines that run 24/7 will not tolerate more than 100 ppm for a month without showing pitting in the bearings, and starting a rapid road to failure. This translates to an average of 6,500 to 7,000 hours of running per month. Most v drives or jets do not see that type of usage. If I was not upgrading my engine, I would have left it alone.

[Eric455]

i would pack it up and ship it over to my place as a gift. and i'll let you know how she runs.
i will e-mail you my adress. hey info tell ya what i'll even pay for shipping.
thanx
eric
P.S. if you have any questions please call (818) 402-3004

[058]

Info, you didn't say what the cylinders leaked at but if the leakdown is within your specs. then why don't you just freshen up the long block and run it this year?

[GofastRacer]

Hey Info, check your PM's... :D

[wsuwrhr]

Put some bearings in it, and run it. Just keep an idea on the oil pressure.
Brian

[Infomaniac]

Yes there is hidden meaning to everything.
:D :D
I am in sort of denial posting this. I was expecting to see bad bearings - buy a callies crank - oliver rods 11:1 pistons and a T&D shaft rocker system to upgrade everything. Also add several hundred HP.
Since everything seems to be OK , I guess I was looking for a reason to go ahead and go for it.
Thanks GoFastRacer.

[GofastRacer]

You are quite welcome!.. :cool: :D

[Badboat1]

Info,Damn you told me it was wore out,looks like it is ready to run.Put the pan back on and sit down and shut up and fly.I did get the Scat Crank deal done today.So if you need anything or anybody else Email me for prices.
BB1

[superdave013]

Every time I have that gut feeling and tore it down I was glad I did. I found a crack in a piston right by the wrist pin once. You might as well take it the rest of the way down. If all still looks good the just put it back together.

[Big Proppa]

Well damn INFO since you put it that way - I think the oil looked a little oily and she looked kinda silly upside down - SHIT I guess she needs a rebuild - just think how good she'll look upside down with all those new parts inside. :D :D
rebuild it bro - make it how you want it or your just going to think about it all season.
good luck and don't forget the camera on dyno day

[Infomaniac]

Thanks Guys - I did expect it to look bad. My real concern is the GM crank and Eagle Rods. Just one of those things in the back of your mind.

[GofastRacer]

You did not mention "GM crank and Eagle rods"!.. eek!

[Fiat48]

I have to assume the black sludge is from starting it with gas as I have never seen black sludge in an alcohol motor. Everybody's different but here's what I would do. I'd look at all the main bearings as #1 doesn't tell all. If the main caps are still locating tight and the main bearings look pretty good, I'd put a new set of main bearings in it, reseal the head gaskets/studs as that's probably where the water is coming from. I would also leak it cylinder to cylinder with the valves closed and at BTDC to be sure of no cylinder pin holing and assure the head gaskets are not leaking cylinder to cylinder. Not all Gm blocks or cranks are created equally and you just may have a crank that doesn't flex as badly as others or you are not as hard on your stuff as I am. I got 250 runs out of a GM crank once. 20 runs out of the next one. I'd run as is and put those nice new parts you were thinking about buying in a Merlin or Dart Block.
Ps: I built a 509 Blown Alcohol with Lunati Pro Mod steel rods and a Lunati crank. 25 runs so far and no problems with the steel rods. If we get away with this, goodbye to all aluminum rods. Motor runs 7.70's at 155 in a hydro. Turns 8,000 rpm. Hasn't been taken apart yet and inspected.
[ May 22, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Fiat48 ]

[Schiada76]

Let me borrow it for the summer, I'll break it for sure and you won't have any choice but to rebuild it.

[gnarley]

I'd leak it down with rockers off at BDC & see what those numbers say. Then depending on that I'd still do a tear down & inspect. If the leak was good I'd leave the rings, if the clearence was great & bearing great I'd leave the bearings, if they show a little wear, change em. It's also a good time to check the cam, valves & springs. How long those springs been on? I'd also look closely at the valve faces, seats & keepers for wear while I had the heads off. Have those springs lost any pressure since being installed?

[Thunderbutt]

gnarley:
I'd leak it down with rockers off at BDC & see what those numbers say. Then depending on that I'd still do a tear down & inspect. If the leak was good I'd leave the rings, if the clearence was great & bearing great I'd leave the bearings, if they show a little wear, change em. It's also a good time to check the cam, valves & springs. How long those springs been on? I'd also look closely at the valve faces, seats & keepers for wear while I had the heads off. Have those springs lost any pressure since being installed? gnarley, Did you used to go to Berryessa and stay at Berryessa Marina in C- camp.

[Thunderbutt]

Info, I didn't mean to over ride your post. I would put in new bearings, flush all of the oil passages and pump, find the water leak. check the rings. What the hell! REBUILD. If it blows it will cost more then 5M.

[Infomaniac]

Water leak is fixed (relief valve) Springs are new. Only 1 weekend old. Backed off all winter.
If I take it any farther apart it is not going back the same.
The delema is run it as is or spend 5k.

[GofastRacer]

Infomaniac:
The delema is run it as is or spend 5k. Are you a gambler!??.. wink

[Fiat48]

GofastRacer:
Infomaniac:
The delema is run it as is or spend 5k. Are you a gambler!??.. wink If you are then send me the $5k. I'll go to the Casino of your choice and we will put it on the crap table and let it ride 3 times. Problem solved! eek!

[Infomaniac]

A Gambler? I have been playing this hand successfully for 2 years now. Knowing full well the entire time I was pushing my luck.
Does a true gambler quit when he is ahead? Or play until broke?
I am not normally a gambler. Only when I have to make due the best of what I have or can afford at the time.
Still have mixed feelings. Was not happy the boat will not be ready for about another month. But was kind of excited it can be running again in a few days.

[Bense468]

Put new bearings in it. Clean the thing up, Seal it up real good, Tune it up and run it. Thats what I would do if you think things are pretty good. Rebuild it next winter.

[GofastRacer]

What the heck, I may as well put my .02 worth in!. If I was to take the chance (especially with a blown motor), the first thing I would do is check the crank for straightness, it should read the same as it was when first installed, I've seen GM cranks tweek a little and the bearings still looked good!, if it ain't the same, it becomes a swap meet item!. As far as the rods goes, I'd check them for stretch, if none have changed, then I would treat them to a new set of ARP's best rod bolts!. Of course, that's after everything has been magged. Then clean it up blah blah blah and all that shit and run it. Maybe it'll last another two years??...Not saying what to do, just my .02 for whatever it's worth!!... :rolleyes:

[Infomaniac]

There you go GFR.
I have made my decision. I looked at every bearing and the oil pump. Bearings are good and I am going to shim the oil pump relief valve just for the hell of it.
I am going to build the engine that I want. It will take a month or so before I can sell a few things to fund it. I will run this one as is until then. And sell it at that point. It will still be in one piece.
Kind of a compromise I guess. wink It does have L-19 bolts in the rods.
A double standard of sorts. Gamble when it is my stuff. Demand the best stuff when it is a customer.
The new stuff will not be a gamble though. :D My objective with this post was to get some discussion going. Maybe I knew what I was going to do before starting the thread? Maybe all the input led the decision?
[ May 23, 2003, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[Fiat48]

I do the same double standard. I may run an old tall deck with swap meet parts. But if I build for someone, I make them buy the best or want nothing to do with it. I've been questioned why I do that many times and the answer still is "I can't afford the good stuff. I know what I can get away with." But I sure like those Merlins and Dart blocks, Lunati cranks, etc.

[HighRoller]

I don't care about any of this other crap you guys are talkin about.I want to know INFO,which brand of bitchin header plugs are those?PENN or WILSON?And what happens when you fire that thing up with em still in?? eek!

[Thunderbutt]

HighRoller:
I don't care about any of this other crap you guys are talkin about.I want to know INFO,which brand of bitchin header plugs are those?PENN or WILSON?And what happens when you fire that thing up with em still in?? eek! In the old days, befor flappers we used to put nerrf balls in the exhaust that were below water line to keep the water out. They were tied togather and hooked to the ski tow, when you started the motor they would blow out and hang onto the ski tow.

[GofastRacer]

Thunderbutt:
HighRoller:
I don't care about any of this other crap you guys are talkin about.I want to know INFO,which brand of bitchin header plugs are those?PENN or WILSON?And what happens when you fire that thing up with em still in?? eek! In the old days, befor flappers we used to put nerrf balls in the exhaust that were below water line to keep the water out. They were tied togather and hooked to the ski tow, when you started the motor they would blow out and hang onto the ski tow. That's too funny!... :D :D

[Infomaniac]

Do not know which brand. The wife bought them. Funny you mention that. My son put one in too far to get out easily last week. Not a problem.
Just cranking it over with the starter will shoot one out quite a ways.
Turning it over with a ratchet wall shoot them out also.
Too funny. When it is time to install them after an evening at the lake. He asks me if it is ok to put them in. I tell him if he can touch the pipe and not leave skin, they have cooled off enough.
[ June 15, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Infomaniac ]

[GofastRacer]

Infomaniac:
Too funny. When it is time to install them after an evening at the lake. He asks me if it is ok to put them in. I tell him if he can touch the pipe and not leave skin, they have cooled off enough. :cool: :D :D :D