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boxscore
08-04-2006, 01:24 PM
Anyone know the story on "Aquapex" piping for new construction vs. standard copper piping? It's supposed to be tons cheaper but will the stuff last til I die? Mandelon? Anyone?

Tom Brown
08-04-2006, 01:52 PM
PEX is about the same price as copper, maybe a little bit more expensive. The savings are in the install. It's way easier to install. You just thread it to where you want like electric wire and it assembles with swage clamps and collets with no soldering. There's no need for elbows.
As for longevity, the inside surface is designed to be resistant to mineral build up so if you're water supply has much mineral content, it will have less plaque build up over time. Around here, that's a big deal. After 30 years, the open passage in our pipes typically are the size of a cigarette and the pressure gets pretty bad.

MAINEVENT
08-04-2006, 01:54 PM
PEX is about the same price as copper, maybe a little bit more expensive. The savings are in the install. It's way easier to install. You just thread it to where you want like electric wire and it assembles with swage clamps and collets with no soldering. There's no need for elbows.
As for longevity, the inside surface is designed to be resistant to mineral build up so if you're water supply has much mineral content, it will have less plaque build up over time. Around here, that's a big deal. After 30 years, the open passage in our pipes typically are the size of a cigarette and the pressure gets pretty bad.
That a misconception the pressure will never change whether you have a 2" or a 1/4" line the only difference is volume... and IMO you cannot go wrong with good ole copper...
Carry on..... :idea:

Tom Brown
08-04-2006, 01:57 PM
That a misconception the pressure will never change whether you have a 2" or a 1/4" line the only difference is volume... and IMO you cannot go wrong with good ole copper
Not a misconception at all. When there's not enough volume, the pressure drops. What you say would only be true in a static environment. When the water is flowing it is a different story.
There's nothing like a nice refreshing dribble shower on a hot day.
Have you ever worked with PEX? Everybody seems to resist it until they've used it... and then they like it. That seems to be how it goes.

Huntingtonbeach
08-04-2006, 02:09 PM
PEX is awesome for installing just be sure and check with your local building inspector and make sure they allow it.

boxscore
08-04-2006, 02:16 PM
Do they run it overhead after framing? If so, it seems like your cold water might not be very cold...downright hot in the summer months.

boxscore
08-04-2006, 02:18 PM
PEX is about the same price as copper, maybe a little bit more expensive. The savings are in the install. It's way easier to install. .
Wow... I was quoted 40K for PEX and 60K for copper. That means it costs THAT much more for installation? Or am I getting reamed on the copper price?

XTRM22
08-04-2006, 02:26 PM
I am a child of the copper industry, having grown up in a copper mine town, but pex is a great product. I've installed or supervised installation of it in a couple hundred houses over the last 7 years and am a believer. It is usually ran overhead although can be run (continuous w/o joints) under slab. The savings is on the labor side, as it is much faster to run pex then copper. In areas where the water has a high alkalai content I've seen houses where the copper supply piping was eaten up from the inside out. The comment about running it overhead creating a lot of temperature transfer, ie heat in the summer cold in the winter is true of all over head supply plumbing and is solved equally with insulation whether you're using pex or copper. I always had my crews running supply over head, but beneath the level of attic insulation.
Chuck

caroftheweek
08-04-2006, 02:28 PM
Do they run it overhead after framing? If so, it seems like your cold water might not be very cold...downright hot in the summer months.
we have copper run throught he attic and it takes forever to get COLD water out of the faucet in the summer time. kinda sucks. i bet it would be better if we had PEX.
there was a rumor going around that rats could chew through it over time in the attic. it is just plastic, although it is pretty thick.

caroftheweek
08-04-2006, 02:30 PM
I am a child of the copper industry, having grown up in a copper mine town, but pex is a great product. I've installed or supervised installation of it in a couple hundred houses over the last 7 years and am a believer. It is usually ran overhead although can be run (continuous w/o joints) under slab. The savings is on the labor side, as it is much faster to run pex then copper. In areas where the water has a high alkalai content I've seen houses where the copper supply piping was eaten up from the inside out. The comment about running it overhead creating a lot of temperature transfer, ie heat in the summer cold in the winter is true of all over head supply plumbing and is solved equally with insulation whether you're using pex or copper. I always had my crews running supply over head, but beneath the level of attic insulation.
Chuck
you did not grow up in Globe did you?

YeLLowBoaT
08-04-2006, 02:30 PM
Wow... I was quoted 40K for PEX and 60K for copper. That means it costs THAT much more for installation? Or am I getting reamed on the copper price?
Pex is cheaper for both labor and material, vs copper. copper pipe prices have gone up alot in the last year...

Tom Brown
08-04-2006, 02:31 PM
there was a rumor going around that rats could chew through it over time in the attic. it is just plastic, although it is pretty thick.
I'll bet they could.
It's made with a plastic core, covered by a layer of aluminum, covered by another layer of plastic.
Sometimes it is called PEX-Al-PEX.
I'll still bet they could chew through it, though.

YeLLowBoaT
08-04-2006, 02:33 PM
I also have to ask....
How big of a house are you building??? qoutes in the 40k range... thats alot of pipe...

phebus
08-04-2006, 02:50 PM
We have it in our house. From an end user's point of view, we will have to see how it stands up to the test of time, but the cost savings up front sure is nice.
The water doesn't care if it's flowing through copper or plastic :D

blown65
08-04-2006, 02:55 PM
LOL, Id like to see the guy that takes a shower with a 1/4 inch line feeding it. I bet the water pressure sucks pretty bad.
Copper has gone up a ton, wire, pipe etc etc. Pex is now pretty compareable in price compared to copper now, which wasnt the case about a year ago. Like someone else said, pex installs much quicker. Our business has been using it for apx 6-8 yrs with no issues.

phebus
08-04-2006, 02:57 PM
Flow would decrease with smaller diameter, but the pressure should be fine.

blown65
08-04-2006, 03:10 PM
put a pressure gauge in the line just before it exits and tell me that it still has the same pressure. Dont work that way.
Its called friction loss. Take a garden hose, have a guage at the beginning and end, run the hose wide open. The pressure will not be the same at the valve as it is at the end of a 100' hose. Same volume at either end.

buzzaro
08-04-2006, 03:10 PM
we have copper run throught he attic and it takes forever to get COLD water out of the faucet in the summer time. kinda sucks. i bet it would be better if we had PEX.
there was a rumor going around that rats could chew through it over time in the attic. it is just plastic, although it is pretty thick.
Nope, in the winter youve got to turn your water heater WAY up with it run through the attic to get a hot shower. Cold is the same way, youve got to wait for cold water in the summer like you normally wait for hot....ever waited for the shower to cool off? :220v:

buzzaro
08-04-2006, 03:12 PM
LOL, Id like to see the guy that takes a shower with a 1/4 inch line feeding it. I bet the water pressure sucks pretty bad.
Copper has gone up a ton, wire, pipe etc etc. Pex is now pretty compareable in price compared to copper now, which wasnt the case about a year ago. Like someone else said, pex installs much quicker. Our business has been using it for apx 6-8 yrs with no issues.
The retards that installed the pex in our house put F***ing 1/2" to the shower and I can tell you it SUCKS :mad: :skull: , dont even want to think about 1/4"

blown65
08-04-2006, 03:14 PM
Nope, in the winter youve got to turn your water heater WAY up with it run through the attic to get a hot shower. Cold is the same way, youve got to wait for cold water in the summer like you normally wait for hot....ever waited for the shower to cool off? :220v:
Hot water circulator pump would greatly help with that. Grundfos makes kits that you can retrofit in.

YeLLowBoaT
08-04-2006, 03:14 PM
The retards that installed the pex in our house put F***ing 1/2" to the shower and I can tell you it SUCKS :mad: :skull: , dont even want to think about 1/4"
I bet I can guess the builder... :crossx: If you live in a newer home in roseville and thats your only plumbing issue... your lucky.

mickeyfinn
08-04-2006, 03:15 PM
Pressure drop or flow drop, under static conditions a 1/4" pipe gives the same pressure as a 10" pipe. What everyone is talking about is line pressure at a flowrate. Scaling of pipes causes huge headlosses which reducesvolume causingpressure drops when flowing.

Sportin' Wood
08-04-2006, 03:53 PM
Not a misconception at all. When there's not enough volume, the pressure drops. What you say would only be true in a static environment. When the water is flowing it is a different story.
There's nothing like a nice refreshing dribble shower on a hot day.
Have you ever worked with PEX? Everybody seems to resist it until they've used it... and then they like it. That seems to be how it goes.
Sizing a water system properly has everything to do with the perception of pressure. You are correct Mr. Brown.
Nearly 20 years in the industry, ASPE certified Plumbing engineer, and a production home plumbing contractor for the last 8 years I firmly believe PEX piping is superior to copper in every way.
Yes there are reports of rats chewing through Wirsbo brand pex piping but I have never seen any cases nor have I read any documents.
Yes the water will be hotter from the cold side on hot days, but this also happens with overhead copper.
Copper piping has reported health risk that are coming to surface as arguments for the approval of PEX are being made.
Water test show that homes piped with copper have high levels of copper in the water in cases where water conditions are not optimum.
My own opinions:
PEX is legal in 49 states but not Ca. The union has a strong voice in the democratic controled state and this has nothing to do with water and everything to do with Money.
Installers of PEX have to be certified to instal a crimp ring but No plumber needs to be certified to install copper. A process that requires chemicals, and skill to properly join.
PEX piping is legal in select Ca. cities but will become legal around the end of this year state wide at which point the Pipe trades council will file an injunction, delaying the state wide approval untill Jan 08.
I am not a fan of Wirsbo brand,I would stay away from the that. The method used to join the pipe sucks IMHO.
Vangaurd brand has the highest testing standards for Chlorine which is what can affect the longivity of the pipe. The pipe is not impervious to chemicals or UV. Piping must not come into contact with Termite type chemical sprays. The piping can only be in direct sunlight for approx 30 day.
We no longer will install copper in a home. I turn down lots of work due to the liability of Copper pipe. I believe so strongly in PEX piping it is all we install at this time.
If warm/hot water on your cold side is an issue insulate all the lines in the attic with pipe insulation. We do this in our Palm Springs and Indio jobs and have had no complaints this far.
Good luck, Repipe I assume, Must be in the Highland area somewhere, lots of water problems out there.

Sportin' Wood
08-04-2006, 04:02 PM
The retards that installed the pex in our house put F***ing 1/2" to the shower and I can tell you it SUCKS :mad: :skull: , dont even want to think about 1/4"
Is your house Vangaurd manabloc system? 1/2" is the normal size water line required for a copper installation. at 2.0 fixture units. The low flow shower head mandated by the Gov't is likely whats limiting your pressure. Try removing the flow restrictor. If it's manibloc only a 3/8 line is required because friction loss is greatly reduced in that piping system, and each line is a home run. I don't agree with the 3/8 so we run 1/2 on manablock.
Edit:
Check the pressure at the regulator near the water service. This can also be adjusted. You should have a reading around 50-60 psi.15psi is the UPC min.

buzzaro
08-04-2006, 05:41 PM
I bet I can guess the builder... :crossx: If you live in a newer home in roseville and thats your only plumbing issue... your lucky.
Got a little bit of hammer too but I dont think its gonna break anything before i move :cool: Just curious, what builder would you guess? :wink:

buzzaro
08-04-2006, 05:46 PM
Is your house Vangaurd manabloc system? 1/2" is the normal size water line required for a copper installation. at 2.0 fixture units. The low flow shower head mandated by the Gov't is likely whats limiting your pressure. Try removing the flow restrictor. If it's manibloc only a 3/8 line is required because friction loss is greatly reduced in that piping system, and each line is a home run. I don't agree with the 3/8 so we run 1/2 on manablock.
Edit:
Check the pressure at the regulator near the water service. This can also be adjusted. You should have a reading around 50-60 psi.15psi is the UPC min.
It is the manabloc and yeah youre right, they used the 3/8" for everything (I screwed up in my post :220v: ), including the shower. The 3/8" is fine on faucets but no good for the shower. Also I looked into this because of how bad the shower was and the pressure is closer to 70.

boxscore
08-04-2006, 05:47 PM
I also have to ask....
How big of a house are you building??? qoutes in the 40k range... thats alot of pipe...
4000'........ But that includes everything, fixtures, etc.

Mandelon
08-04-2006, 07:12 PM
I've worked on about a jillion remodels in the past 20 years. Pex and other poly piping was only used on a few thousand homes during a period in the late 70's- early 80's around here and I know they had issues. We have repiped a few of them. The joints seemed to be what failed more than the pipe itself. I just don't know how long plastic can last. Copper should last over a hundred years. Cast iron drain pipe had a life span of about 50 years. ABS should last longer, if kept out of UV rays.
I've seen copper fail too, sometimes due to a nail in the pipe from an overzealous drywaller, sometimes due to corrosion or poor workmanship at the joints. A lot of guys leave an abundunce of flux on their joints and that really advances the corrosion factor.
There's quite a few lawsuits about the poly piping, but if they are still selling it, they must have worked the issues out.
If its been legal in the rest of the country, it must be OK now.

89checkmate
08-04-2006, 08:28 PM
Hot water circulator pump would greatly help with that. Grundfos makes kits that you can retrofit in.
here is a great website about that issue: www.waitnot.com :cool:

blown65
08-04-2006, 09:55 PM
here is a great website about that issue: www.waitnot.com :cool:
Ya, we are a dealer for Grundfos, we really dont do much circ pumps and what not. Mostly 1/2hp-100hp irrigation pumps and domestic well pumps. Those are a little small to us. :)

Sportin' Wood
08-07-2006, 05:29 AM
I've worked on about a jillion remodels in the past 20 years. Pex and other poly piping was only used on a few thousand homes during a period in the late 70's- early 80's around here and I know they had issues. We have repiped a few of them. The joints seemed to be what failed more than the pipe itself. I just don't know how long plastic can last. Copper should last over a hundred years. Cast iron drain pipe had a life span of about 50 years. ABS should last longer, if kept out of UV rays.
I've seen copper fail too, sometimes due to a nail in the pipe from an overzealous drywaller, sometimes due to corrosion or poor workmanship at the joints. A lot of guys leave an abundunce of flux on their joints and that really advances the corrosion factor.
There's quite a few lawsuits about the poly piping, but if they are still selling it, they must have worked the issues out.
If its been legal in the rest of the country, it must be OK now.
Mandy, That piping is not PEX, it's Poly butaline (SP) Much different piping. If memory serves me it used an alum. ring.Yep it was crap. Chlorine tore the hell out off it. Tap water is not what it used to be. I was drinking the stuff untill I started seeing the test results that are being taken across the state to obtain approval of PEX. I have been told water districts are only required to meet health standards The corosive properties are not there concern. I wonder what will happen when the greatest source will be infected with that Chromium crap thats up near Topoc?

XTRM22
08-07-2006, 06:26 AM
you did not grow up in Globe did you?
Nope, Globe was a huge city compared to where I grew up, Bagdad Az.
oving here to Havasu full time was like coming home, this is my part of Az.
Chuck