Our New Cheyenne Pgj

[sdba069]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312Pete10001.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312Pete60001.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312Pete60008.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/2312Pete60009.jpg

[sdba069]

Actually, we've had the hull about 6 months. We've done everything in-house except the machine work on the engine. Had to damn near threaten Hans Feustal Racing Engines with a law suit to get the motor pieces back. I put the keel on it, built the engine, built the carbs, plus rigged the boat to this point. We are running a gearbox from Owens, plus a popoff and a ratchet. Been waiting about a month for a new pan from Stef's, got it in this afternoon and it wasn't finished. They didn't drill the right pan rail or install access plugs for the inside pan bolts. SOSDD. Same old Shi$, different day. When I get time I'll add some pictures from the keel mods and intake set. The engine is a 500 CI DRCE II. I also did all the pump work in-house including machine work for Jetaway, popoff, race reverse gate, nozzle mods, and preloader. Double bolted everything on the pump. We'll be running a MSD crank trigger setup with a Digital 7 box, programmable launch controller, and Edelbrock QwikData data acquisition system. Thanks to Steve Brule and Tom Papp for helping me get a lot of the parts rounded up. Thanks to Irvan Capps for building us a clean light boat. I still don't know if that's the right way to spell his name, but he'll know who I'm talking about.

[Bense468]

Looks stout....what heads are those?

[FuelInMyVeins82]

Motor looks stout. Are you planning on running NJBA, IHBA or what?

[Cheyenne372]

Hey 2-R's:
Better take the Owens out if you want to run SDBA.....they aren't allowed per Page 21 of the 2006 NDBA Rulebook!
That was also confirmed by Mr. Juan Blanco at Fort Worth.

[MikeF]

Looks pretty powerful to me! :cool:
Nice work. :)

[IMPATIENT 1]

AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME!! i love cheyenne's! that thing is gonna haul ass! fill us in on the numbers when you get it wet.

[olbiezer]

gary ,,,is there a name for that one peace removeable drive shaft? my daytona has the same thing and not being around drag boats much i had never seeen one like it before......

[bp]

Hey 2-R's:
Better take the Owens out if you want to run SDBA.....they aren't allowed per Page 21 of the 2006 NDBA Rulebook!
That was also confirmed by Mr. Juan Blanco at Fort Worth.
why not?

[Cs19]

Thanks for the update SDBA.
Are you going to take it for a spin on the dyno?
Everything looks great! Its hard to tell how far the engine is ahead of the transom,if you dont mind saying, how many inches? Im gonna guess 35.
If anyone is interested there is a guy selling that same gearbox here on the boards for a good price.
Chris.

[sdba069]

Hey 1R.......... The last year I was on the board, we changed that rule for PGJ. The gearbox is not allowed in PLJ but is in PGJ. I haven't looked in the rule book, but that change should have taken place about 3 years ago. Those heads are GM Olds DRCE II's. Hey Ron...... we just call it a solid driveline or Lenco shaft.

[sdba069]

Hey Chris............. I don't want to say exactly about where the motor is sitting but I will tell you that the driver is fairly heavy and the motor is sitting a little further back than usual. The motor was dynoed before I freshened it and made impressive power. Being able to take advantage of that power in a jet at the RPM it liked could prove interesting, though. When changing cams and cam timing to make peak power in the 8500 RPM range we found that lots of times a cam that makes peak power at a higher RPM will make more power at 8500 on it's way to a higher peak hp/rpm than a cam that peaks at 8500. I guess we'll find out one of these days. I do know this, we should have started on this boat a year ago, we might have gotten to race it this year. Digressing a little, as far as where it will run, as far as I'm concerned, it will never see anything but SDBA water.

[pce680]

Hey 2-R's:
Better take the Owens out if you want to run SDBA.....they aren't allowed per Page 21 of the 2006 NDBA Rulebook!
That was also confirmed by Mr. Juan Blanco at Fort Worth.
"Head Over Heels" set the SDBA PGJ record running the Owens gear box a couple of years ago.
Maybe somebody should update the SDBA Rulebook.

[Cheyenne372]

"Head Over Heels" set the SDBA PGJ record running the Owens gear box a couple of years ago.
Maybe somebody should update the SDBA Rulebook.
Ron:
The SDBA, or NDBA Rule Book, as it is called, IS UPDATED.....and you'd know that if you would come race, you'd have a current one!
Head Over Heels were allowed to have that record although at the time they legged the old record, they weren't full paid members....and then when they legged it they went back and paid the difference and were allowed to set the record.....something that is specifically prohibited in the rulebook...( I wish they had an icon that showed a character sweeping stuff under a rug...that would be appropriate for this discussion!)
But I digress....
As to the transmission rule, John White was asked by me, point blank, in Fort Worth about that rule and I was told that it was in the rule book in 2005, but at the NDBA meeting, it was brought up for discussion. Since none of those that lobbied for the addition of transmissions have supported any races in the last two years, it was decided that the rule would revert back to the way it was....and that is that they are not allowed in PGJ or PLJ.
I'm just telling you what the Pres. told me and what my rulebook says.

[poncho-pwr]

Nice looking boat. I have never seen a transmission of any kind on a jet boat but it certainly makes since on something like a pro-gas/pro-stock motor where you gotta make the BIG power wayyyy upstairs. Does anyone have any estimated numbers on how much horsepower the Owens unit absorbs? In other words, how much power do you have to make in the upper rpms to overcome what the tranny absorbs? What do Progas jet boats run as far as E.T. and MPH ?

[Liberator TJ1984]

Garry, she is looking good !!!
You guy's got ALL the Good Toys..... :cool:
What's up with Dallas's boat ??? I see the engines out again ?

[UBFJ #454]

Garry -
Very professional build/rigging ... my Compliments.
A question though ... Just Curious, Nothing More .....
I'm assuming your using the Owens for rpm reduction between the motor and the pump, Correct?
If so, I'm curious as to why .......
Why not build the motor so that the Tq/Hp Spectra/Output is optimal in the 5,300 to 7,500 rpm band and eliminate the need for Gear Reduction and its inherent additional weight, wear on parts (higher motor rpm, etc.) and, hassle?
No Critizism, just a question as I'm not sure I'm not missing something as to how your setting this thing up.
Jak

[h2oboy]

Nice ride Gary!!!
Looks like a boat I have been around a lot...... Best of luck... Can not wait to see it run...

[Gearhead]

Garry -
Very professional build/rigging ... my Compliments.
A question though ... Just Curious, Nothing More .....
I'm assuming your using the Owens for rpm reduction between the motor and the pump, Correct?
If so, I'm curious as to why .......
Why not build the motor so that the Tq/Hp Spectra/Output is optimal in the 5,300 to 7,500 rpm band and eliminate the need for Gear Reduction and its inherent additional weight, wear on parts (higher motor rpm, etc.) and, hassle?
No Critizism, just a question.
Jak
Jak,
The theory behind this unit is using the power curve and technology available in modern day Pro Stock type engines. When torque is maintained at a higher RPM, a higher HP is derived. Then there is the gear multiplication theory that multiplies the torque such as a transmission in a lower gear range. The modern day Pro Stock engines have power curves up to 10,500 RPM with lots of power in the 9,000 range. These applications generally use a fairly large impellar to keep the pump in an efficient RPM range... around 7000 RPM, but then spin the engine up into the engine power efficiency range. The big impellar also gives a big bite on the starting line.
As was mentioned earlier in this thread, Paul Prange and Marilyn Brule's Head Over Heals boat has run very fast and quick with this type setup using Reher-Morrison Pro Stock power.
At least at one point in time when I was asked to come to tune the engine of an SDBA Pro Gas boat a year or so back, I'm fairly certain every Pro-Gas jet in the field was using a gear reduction unit of one brand or another.

[bp]

Digressing a little, as far as where it will run, as far as I'm concerned, it will never see anything but SDBA water.
that's too bad.
jak, when we set all the records with risky business 7 seasons ago, we ran the same reduction gear. the bottom line is that no one has built a 500" engine that can make 1250+hp around 7k. just taking prostock components, and trying to make hp at that rpm doesn't work.. well, it'll run, but it won't make record setting power at that rpm by a long shot, even without the reduction gear. that particular gear -probably- costs about 50-75 hp from the research we did at the time, but with the right gearing, the engine is operating at it's peak hp and the pump at optimum efficiency.
as a side note, the biz engine was just under 500", verified at least 7 times over 2 years as keith kept resetting records, at least twice that i remember pulling a head sunday night because the p&g wouldn't come out right. hoh chased those records for a long time, and equaled one et record, but not our best et record and never the speed record. it would be nice to see somebody go after it again.
i still don't understand why a rule would exist preventing a pro gas jet from running a reduction gear. i remember a friend of 680 that ran a casale mounted to the front of the pump, which seemed a little iffy to me safety wise, but it worked. but an owens mounted to the engine is no different than the engine, safety wise.

[pce680]

"Head over Heals" run 7.80s at Phoenix,that would equate to be 7.50's at
Bakersfield on NJBA lights,well under the NJBA Record.It is the quickest
Pro Gas Jet and it doesn"t have to run nose up wanting to blow over at any
time.
Garry Gary....Mike Ledford also ran a gear box last year.He has a Owens and
also a Casale.

[bp]

"Head over Heals" run 7.80s at Phoenix,that would equate to be 7.50's at
Bakersfield on NJBA lights,well under the NJBA Record.It is the quickest
Pro Gas Jet and it doesn"t have to run nose up wanting to blow over at any
time.
Garry Gary....Mike Ledford also ran a gear box last year.He has a Owens and
also a Casale.
i've seen hoh run 7.8+ at phoenix. i'm not debating whether or not it's quicker (should be, with a brand new RM with 4 more years of development than the schmidt had), but it still hasn't reset THE record, and it's not close with speed. your "equate to bakersfield" is speculation. the record at ming is .71, which it ran all weekend the last weekend kz ran it, in '01. your other comment sounds a lot like the pot calling the kettle black.

[steelcomp]

It is the quickest
Pro Gas Jet and it doesn"t have to run nose up wanting to blow over at any
time.
That sounded like a really cheap shot.
Jak...I'll reiterate what has been said about the gear reduction.The power gained by being able to run those PS type motors in their RPM range well overcomes the HP loss and weight of the gearbox.
I'm curious as to the type of reduction, as I've never seen one up close. Is it a planetary system? How is it lubed?
Is the Casale unit you guys mention a Z drive?

[pce680]

i've seen hoh run 7.8+ at phoenix. i'm not debating whether or not it's quicker (should be, with a brand new RM with 4 more years of development than the schmidt had), but it still hasn't reset THE record, and it's not close with speed. your "equate to bakersfield" is speculation. the record at ming is .71, which it ran all weekend the last weekend kz ran it, in '01. your other comment sounds a lot like the pot calling the kettle black.
I think the Schmidt motor makes alot more power. 1250HP +
I would love to see Head Over Heals run at Bakersfield.Its on the average of
.30 quicker and 2000 to 3000 ft better on the corrected altitude.
And as far as running the nose high ,I worry about that also,doing the hardware myself without any help from the so called Jet Boat guru's,but like I said HOH run flat,safe and quick.

[pce680]

It is the quickest
Pro Gas Jet and it doesn"t have to run nose up wanting to blow over at any
time.
That sounded like a really cheap shot.
Jak...I'll reiterate what has been said about the gear reduction.The power gained by being able to run those PS type motors in their RPM range well overcomes the HP loss and weight of the gearbox.
I'm curious as to the type of reduction, as I've never seen one up close. Is it a planetary system? How is it lubed?
Is the Casale unit you guys mention a Z drive?
Not a cheap shot,my boat runs nose high sometimes too.
The Owens has planetary gears and the Casale has 4 gears on 2 shafts
like a H drive,but Andy called it a J drive.

[UBFJ #454]

The only NHRA ProStock Motor Steve Schmidt makes is a MOPAR 'Hemi' and he makes no 500 ci Chevy Motors other than upon Special Request. The smallest BBC he makes is a 523 ci. motor rated @ 875 Hp & 688 ft.lbs. Tq.
Here's the Link to Reher-Morrison's site so you'all can compare.
[URL=]http://www.rehermorrison.com/ (]http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/engines.html[/URL)

[poncho-pwr]

Steve Scmidt builds lots of 500c.i. pro stock motors my friend.

[UBFJ #454]

And just where in my post did I say he didn't???

[poncho-pwr]

I meant he builds 500" Chevys too, not just mopars. I wasn't trying to start shit, just stating the facts.

[Cs19]

The engine is a 500 CI DRCE II.
Isnt DRCE II current pro stock stuff? I think WJ is developing the 3 stuff while most of the guys are running the 2 still, that should be some serious power if thats the case. :jawdrop:

[UBFJ #454]

Chris, Re DRCE 2's, 3's, & 4's in NHRA ProStock.
http://www.dragracingonline.com/technical/viii_8-drce-1.html

[sdba069]

I'll try to get some of the questions answered tomorrow, but for now, just got in from the SDBA Bryan, TX race. 102 boats. One of the guys who races out of our shop, Kevin Crane, won high points in this, his rookie season, in one of my old TX-19's. David Straube got runner up high points in SE, and my main boat, Steve Douglas's Miss Calculation Placecraft BAJ also got runner up high points in PCE after missing the first Waco race while waiting on the motor parts to get back from Feustal. We won 3 of the 5 races we ran, along with setting the SDBA ET and MPH records for BAJ. What no one else in the class knew was that we have been on 7 cylinders since the OKC race. I mean 0 compression and 100% leak. It ran 7.99 @128 today on 7. Just so no one gets the wrong idea, we ran 7.70's while in the 8 second class last year with much less motor. Index racing will cause you to do strange things. I will have it at full speed for the Smoking in the Cove race coming up in a few weeks.
Gearbox thing........ I wasn't aware of the NDBA ruling, but that makes absolutely no sense. I feel confident that I can get the situation squared away with the SDBA board this winter. Ledford is supposed to have the Casale in one boat and the Owens in the other and as you have seen, I have the Owens in our Cheyenne. I'm reasonably sure i have a copy of the minutes from the board meeting in 2002 where I made the motion to legalize the gearbox in PGJ and it was seconded and passed. I don't think that Ledford has run a geabox in SDBA, at least in the last few years. The best I can remember is that Robbie Barrett and Brule are the only two that have run a gearbox in SDBA in years. I remember several years ago, a few of the Pro Jet guys tried the Casale with no luck. What I was told was that it took too much HP to roll it over.
For the record........ This new Cheyenne is owned and will, most likely, be driven by Peter Gehan. He bought it from me earlier this year. And after not being in a boat for 4 years, I'm tossing around the idea of putting together another PLJ for myself for next year. Still a long way from written in stone, but a plan is being considered.

[sdba069]

This DRCE II was a Schmidt motor. I can't tell you how many Schmidt Pontiacs, DRCE's, and symetrical port Chevy's we've worked on. He may not do them anymore, I have no idea, but he has done lots.

[Gearhead]

Garry, one minor correction to your post... Ledford Jr. was running the Casale box in SDBA PGJ at the same time Barrett was running the Owens box. Jeremy Dickerson was also running an Owens unit.

[pce680]

Garry...Mike Ledford told me 3 years ago that the SDBA made the gear box legal in Pro Gas Jet.Thats why he bought two of them from Tommy Papp,a Casale and a Owens.As I remember the SDBA outlawed the gear box because Big John,the Dugans,and a few more PGJ racers wanted it outlawed back in 1998.At marble Falls that year,8 PGJ,s from the SDBA ran there separate class,instead of PCE. Charlie F gave them there own class because of the gear box rule and they did not want to run PCE.My boat and Steve Burle "Head over Heals" ran PCE with gear boxes.It was my understanding that the gear box would not be allowed as long as they were still running SDBA.Once they all quit running,the SDBA let the gear box back in.
What do you think about allowing the gear box in PLJ ? Also allowing belt drives,Tit valves and bowtie blocks.Some of thiose rules are over 20 years old and Pro Limited Jet as well as PLH and PLF are all part of PCE now. Ron

[sdba069]

Hey Ron.... As I mentioned before, we legalized the gearbox in PGJ in 2002 and I left the board of directors shortly thereafter and was not aware of a NDBA ruling stating otherwise. I have a call in to John White right now to get this straightened out. I'm 100% for the gearbox in PGJ and 100% against the gearbox in PLJ. I feel like if it bothers someone to spend $3000/$3500 on a PGJ boat, thet probably need to be bracket racing anyway. Then again, in PLJ, Pro Limited Jet, it's an entry level pro class and I think that,as such, efforts should be made with rules to keep costs to as minimum as possible, that's where the "Limited" comes into play.
I wasn't aware that little Mike ran that gearbox. If he did, I never saw any numbers out of that boat indicating that it had a gearbox. Keep in mind, also, the only Pro Gas Jet to run SDBA this year was Big John's KustomKraft at Bryan this weekend. John doesn't run a gearbox. He ran a blistering 9.17. That boat hadn't been run in about 4 or 5 years and has run some low 8.30's if memory serves me. I did the pump in that boat. I remember the 98 MF well. That was the year I went on the board of directors. It was also the year that we outlawed the gearbox in PGJ and PLJ. The reason that it was outlawed was that every PGJ owner in SDBA was either neutral or against it so we voted not to allow it. Even then, I was for the box, as at that time I had helped Steve Brule out with an impeller or two for the gearbox combination and knew it to be the next big performance gain for PGJ.
I believe that the first Pro Limited rules were done in 1992.

[bruleracer]

In the 98 marble fall race, I ran in the PGJ class, with a gear box. The race
as I recall was "co-santioned" with IHBA being the primary, and since I wasn't an IHBA member was denied the record by both ass. after running six passes in a row under the record.
Steve

[poncho-pwr]

What are the records for PGJ ??

[sdba069]

Hey Steve......... What do you think about the white boat ??????

[jweeks123]

.... the only Pro Gas Jet to run SDBA this year was Big John's KustomKraft at Bryan this weekend.... He ran a blistering 9.17.... I did the pump in that boat.
:idea: hmmm...

[bruleracer]

hey Gary, how about some more pics, or is it me thats just getting the first 4.
steve

[Gearhead]

I have a verification and question. In 2004 when the PGJ record was set at an SDBA race.... by mid season all the PGJ boats in the field were running gear drives. This includes Ledford, Dickerson, Barrett and Marilynn Brule's boat.
I understand the 2006 rulebook states no gearbox in PGJ. I believe the 2006 rulebook allows the gearbox to be legal in Pro Comp Jet. Is this correct?
I do have a question that may need to be addressed in the associations on indexes. I believe the indexes in PCE were derived from records. If so, then the PGJ record was set from runs using a gearbox, but now gearboxes are not legal. Should there be some correction for this?
Just trying to clarify PGJ and apples and apples.

[sdba069]

I stand corrected on missing Jeremy, but hell, you never knew what he would show up with. He was at Bryan this weekend undecided whether to run Comp Jet or UBGJ. Don't remember what he ended up with, I think UBGJ, but he lost against Uncle Skunk first round. There is no such thing as Pro Comp Jet, that I'm aware of. True about the record and the index for PGJ but as mentioned earlier, I have a call in to el presidente to hopefully get some clarification and see about getting the gearbox issue resolved..
About me building John's pump, that's when ran 8.30's no tranny. His boat will run just need to get the bugs worked out.
Hey Steve.......... That's all the pics I've posted. I'll send you the "TOP SECRET" bottom photos by email. We sure don't want anyone to see those.

[Gearhead]

sdba069 earlier stated "When I get time I'll add some pictures from the keel mods and intake set."
Garry.... now you are teasing us saying you won't post your "Top Secret" photos of the keel and intake...
My statement on Pro Comp Jet must have been reffering to UBGJ. I know the Dickerson's are running one boat with and one without gearbox. Thanks for the clarification

[poncho-pwr]

Are the PGJ records "Top Secret" like the rest of the PGJ stuff??????

[bp]

Are the PGJ records "Top Secret" like the rest of the PGJ stuff??????
From the August '06 issue of DBR, pro gas jet records are:
IHBA Division I: 133.34 mph, keith zellmer "risky business", firebird 11/00
7.81, keith zellmer "risky business, chowchilla 6/00
IHBA Division II: 133.34 mph, keith zellmer "risky business", firebird 11/00
7.81, ray florez/marilyn brule, "head over heels" marble falls 8/02
IHBA Division III: 130.02, ray florez/mb, "head over heels" firebird 11/02
7.813 ray florez/mb, "head over heels", firebird 11/02
SDBA: 127.279, reed sanders, "high-n-dry", (no date/location)
7.914 ray florez/mb, "head over heels", (no date/location)
no records are secret if you subscribe to "dragboat review". to subscribe, go to www.dragboatreview.com, call (918)689-7220, or email bstokes@dragboatreview.com.
there is no "pro" comp jet, but there is comp jet. the only difference between comp jet and pro gas is 30ci. progas is 500, comp is 470. the comp jet divison I, II, and III speed records are held by boat 680 (ronpitts, rich durnil jr driving) "sunday showdown", division I et record held by rich durnil Sr, "propduster", and division II and III et by phil roeschen "quick trick". speed 131.34, et (roeschen) 8.245. there does not appear to be any established sdba comp jet record. jeremy dickerson has all the pro limited jet records in div I, II, and sdba.

[sdba069]

It's not really that the keel is top secret, I just want to make sure it works before I go spouting off too much. I used to run a Cheyenne with more power than this (blown) but a different keel and it worked pretty well, just tried something a little different from what I normally do on this one. When I get a chance I'll put up a couple of pics.

[Greaser]

Cant wait to see it in action Garry!!! It looks great.
BTW, it was good visiting with you this weekend. Thanks for giving me and my buddies a course in Blower motors 101. LOL

[jweeks123]

there is no "pro" comp jet, but there is comp jet. the only difference between comp jet and pro gas is 30ci. progas is 500, comp is 470.
what's the deal with that? why have two identical classses with only 30in difference? what's the logic behind this?
jw

[Cheyenne372]

"...I do have a question that may need to be addressed in the associations on indexes. I believe the indexes in PCE were derived from records. If so, then the PGJ record was set from runs using a gearbox, but now gearboxes are not legal. Should there be some correction for this?...."
There is no way that the indexes will be corrected to allow for the difference in having a gearbox and not having a gearbox!
It would have to do with a consistency issue.
IF they do allow a change in the index because of equipment issues, then Doug Verstuft should have to return the $30,000 bounty that he collected in OKC for setting the TFH record! He set the record with a dual prop TFH over a record that was set with a single prop boat.
Don't you think that the performance enhancing argument is just as strong in that case?

[Gearhead]

1R,
I don't quite follow the reasoning on part of your reply. I feel fairly certain the index change issue on the PGJ won't be revisited and so your statement there is probably true. It opens a can of worms at the least. But, when indexes are set, but the rules changed a different direction, you would think there would be index considerations. When we have experienced rule changes in the NHRA Stock, Super Stock and Comp Eliminator classes, index changes are considered and when warranted are changed to equalize the competition between the various classes.
Now, I don't really see the relation and/or correlation of rules, payouts and bounties of PCE and PGJ with Top Fuel Hydro. All these records were set within the guideles of the class and there were no changes in the rules that may limit the performance at the time.
As you say it is all a consistency issue and I know the associations have there hands full trying to keep competition even and not favoring any singles persons new trick. And yes it is all deals with performance enhancing equipment, etc.
When a performance enthusiast puts together a new ride he or she has to decide what their desire may be and performance expectations along with cost,competition, etc. I kind of joke that the final result is set by the persons ability to control their testosterone level. Mine requires a certain power level even on the lake boat.
I was throwing bait trying to open a dialogue and you did good! Thanks for your post.
Gearhead

[pce680]

Don't worry about the gear box.I think the SDBA will allow it.All the PGJ racers that were opposed to it are not racing anymore.Most PGJ,s and Comp Jets,s have gear boxes and ain't taking them out.This issue will get resolved like 2R's says. Ron

[Pops@Aggressor]

Gary, Nice.
What is the motor curve going to look like, % Under, and Impeller cut.

[bp]

what's the deal with that? why have two identical classses with only 30in difference? what's the logic behind this?
jw
both have been around for a very long time. logic is, they are two different classes, and 30ci makes a big difference. look at the record difference between comp and pro gas in hydro, flat, and jet. .4 to .5 is a lot, when you're getting into those areas.
also, no one has really "pushed the envelope" in pursuing these records for quite awhile now. there are some that can run close, and maybe get a few hundredths under the number on occassion, but there are no greg anderson's or warren johnson's really gettin' after it in pro gas or comp with unlimited sponsorship bux. plus, if you're interested in winning in pce, you're not necessarily interested in setting a new record with every pass :cool: .

[Gearhead]

BP,
I don't recall for certain what all the classes were on the West coast back in the early 80's, but in the SDBA the normally aspirated classes were as I recall River Racer, Comp Jet and Unblown Gas Jet. These were something like 460 cid (fairly stock style engine), 470" and 565" limits. So, at that time there was a pretty good spread in the cubic inch levels. I'm thinking it was 1987 or 1988 that Pro Gas 500" came about and it replaced the 565" Unblown Gas classes. The Benson boys were running some killer times in their Hot Blooded Unblown Gas Hydro on the West coast at the time.
The change was made to Pro Gas to align with other boat associations as well as making a class where the technology was taking place, ie NHRA Pro Stock.
I imagine 1R will remember all that too as he and his dad were involved heavy in the SDBA races in Waco back then. I put my "old boat motors", a 505" & a 557" in dragsters at the time and we bounty hunted a few track records prior to building the Comp Eliminator car.
Fun times all along the way!!!
Gearhead.

[sdpm]

Everybody has to remember that back then the IHBA and SDBA 7.70 rule was not in place. Today if you want to run under that you must have a capsule. Try adding a 250lb capsule to the nose of your boat and go out and run those same numbers! Not only is it a weight factor but also a $$$ factor. They are not cheap. Times have changed!!

[77charger]

both have been around for a very long time. logic is, they are two different classes, and 30ci makes a big difference. look at the record difference between comp and pro gas in hydro, flat, and jet. .4 to .5 is a lot, when you're getting into those areas.
also, no one has really "pushed the envelope" in pursuing these records for quite awhile now. there are some that can run close, and maybe get a few hundredths under the number on occassion, but there are no greg anderson's or warren johnson's really gettin' after it in pro gas or comp with unlimited sponsorship bux. plus, if you're interested in winning in pce, you're not necessarily interested in setting a new record with every pass :cool: .Bob you are right in the et difference there but i think in the right combo it can be cut a lil closer to within 3 tenths.as for pushing for records i am one who trying to.already took the sdba comp flat record before end of year i want the ihba one too and i know we have what it takes to beat it.For pce it comes down to using brains and not running to fast on a perfect day or a fast track cause it can be a long hot summer when you cant run that number again .Now that the end of season is coming down to 2 more races and i aint in points contention i aint got nothin to lose now.new motor should make some more power and i am getting comfy drivin the boat now

[shaun]

Sweet boat!!
Hey whats with the huge ass dish in the first pic, you searching/Listening for aliens! :rollside:

[Brazos River Rat]

Garry:
The boat is coming along great. Very nice ride. Look like you been busy , since I was there last .

[bp]

BP,
I don't recall for certain what all the classes were on the West coast back in the early 80's, but in the SDBA the normally aspirated classes were as I recall River Racer, Comp Jet and Unblown Gas Jet. These were something like 460 cid (fairly stock style engine), 470" and 565" limits. So, at that time there was a pretty good spread in the cubic inch levels. I'm thinking it was 1987 or 1988 that Pro Gas 500" came about and it replaced the 565" Unblown Gas classes. The Benson boys were running some killer times in their Hot Blooded Unblown Gas Hydro on the West coast at the time.
The change was made to Pro Gas to align with other boat associations as well as making a class where the technology was taking place, ie NHRA Pro Stock.
I imagine 1R will remember all that too as he and his dad were involved heavy in the SDBA races in Waco back then. I put my "old boat motors", a 505" & a 557" in dragsters at the time and we bounty hunted a few track records prior to building the Comp Eliminator car.
Fun times all along the way!!!
Gearhead.
gearhead, the ubgj class is still alive and kickin' in bakersfield. a few years back, they upped the ci limit to 632, but no one's really running one of those. mostly, it's a class for n2 users, and jerry hicks.
robert, i appreciate what you're trying to do. but an unlimited funded comp flat would be in the 7.50s now. the pgf record in ihba is in the 7.50s, from way back when tony could run withouit a capsule, but i was at ming the weekend flat nasty ran in the high 6's, and tony wasn't that far behind. in fact, i have a timeslip from qualifying when he was in the other lane and ran a 7.0. if a gasser can run 6's, an all out "state of the art" comp isn't going to be a full second behind. but keep after it and good luck with it...

[77charger]

gearhead, the ubgj class is still alive and kickin' in bakersfield. a few years back, they upped the ci limit to 632, but no one's really running one of those. mostly, it's a class for n2 users, and jerry hicks.
robert, i appreciate what you're trying to do. but an unlimited funded comp flat would be in the 7.50s now. the pgf record in ihba is in the 7.50s, from way back when tony could run withouit a capsule, but i was at ming the weekend flat nasty ran in the high 6's, and tony wasn't that far behind. in fact, i have a timeslip from qualifying when he was in the other lane and ran a 7.0. if a gasser can run 6's, an all out "state of the art" comp isn't going to be a full second behind. but keep after it and good luck with it...
I was there that day and it was damn near perfect conditions.My boat has gone 7.96 at 136 and at 124 backing off early i know it is very capable of going quicker than a 7.70.I am still new at this boat so the more i drive it the better it will go.But from my experience the clocks at bako always seem to be faster than everywhere else.We might try to make bako in oct but when i see boats that run at bako try it at chowchilla,red bluff, or anywhere else they seem to be off nearly 2 tenths with you being an exception but then again you know your boat and tuning very good .BTW you makin sd?

[pce680]

Gearhead
The class that Hicks runs is Unblown FUEL Jet.A 632 CI limit was added by the NJBA a few years ago,before then there was no CI limit. Nitrious or Nitro is allowed and required if the motor is under 515 CI.
The IHBA runs UNblown Gas Jet With a 565 Ci limit,same as it was before it was dropped in favor of Pro Gas Jet in 1987.UBGJ was reinstated 3 years ago.
The Unblown Fuel Jets run with BAJ in the IHBA or did until Dan Kirkman reset the index at 7.03.
Robert
You are correct.Bakersfield is .2 to.4 quicker than any other course.The last IHBA race at Bakersfield my boat ran .3 slower on the average on IHBA lights.Back to reality.
Nobody is going to build a 7.50 Comp Flat motor with the 7.70 rule.And if you install a capsule,you are back to over 8.0.Your boat has a 7.70 in it for SD.Watch out for that Blue/White Comp Jet. Ron

[bp]

Gearhead
The class that Hicks runs is Unblown FUEL Jet.A 632 CI limit was added by the NJBA a few years ago,before then there was no CI limit. Nitrious or Nitro is allowed and required if the motor is under 515 CI..
ubfj is what i meant to say. the other thing you might have mentioned is that at njba, if you're over 515, you must run ubfj whether you run fuel, n2 or not.
The IHBA runs UNblown Gas Jet With a 565 Ci limit,same as it was before it was dropped in favor of Pro Gas Jet in 1987.UBGJ was reinstated 3 years ago.
The Unblown Fuel Jets run with BAJ in the IHBA or did until Dan Kirkman reset the index at 7.03.
ubgj has a 565 maximum limit in ihba, as does ubfj. ubfj has the same ci limitation as baj. has anyone other than hoh run that ubgj class since it was reinstated? sure was a lot of noice to get it back in, then nobody runs it...
Robert
You are correct.Bakersfield is .2 to.4 quicker than any other course.The last IHBA race at Bakersfield my boat ran .3 slower on the average on IHBA lights.Back to reality.
i completely disagree with that statement. i run the same setup at ming as i do at red bluff, chowchilla, and san diego, only adjusting for air. i always run wot on saturday, and i haven't had any trouble finding 0's at the other tracks, running exactly the same setup as i do at ming. if you want to say a .2 quicker than firebird in late april, or marble falls, i agree with that, but there's no way it's .2 to .4 quicker than red bluff, chow, or sd.
at the last ihba race at ming, which was in 2001 with the track backwards, we ran within a few hundredths of what we did at red bluff, or ming on njba lights, with the setup we had in risky business at the time. and if i recall correctly, you were having a few issues at the time.
Nobody is going to build a 7.50 Comp Flat motor with the 7.70 rule.And if you install a capsule,you are back to over 8.0.Your boat has a 7.70 in it for SD.Watch out for that Blue/White Comp Jet. Ron
i would never say never, but i would say highly unlikely. but in the hypothetical sense, i wasn't only talking about motors.

[Moose]

Gearhead
The class that Hicks runs is Unblown FUEL Jet.A 632 CI limit was added by the NJBA a few years ago,before then there was no CI limit.
For unblown fuel jet, NJBA.
If running gas only the minimum ci. is 516. Maximum is 670 ci.
just thought I would straighten that out :rollside:

[77charger]

bob i know of at least 3 boats that ran 2-3 tenths slower at red bluff from ming all flats.Even our 006 boat went quicker at ming as well as mph.I do know the rope to beam at ming is longer than ihba courses(i leave on a 6 vs leaving on a 7 coming on at ming) that can make for a quicker et.I would really like to run a comp flat that usually runs at ming guess i have to wait til oct. :)
If the comps that run at ming raced ihba they would easily have the 7.91 et record.

[bp]

bob i know of at least 3 boats that ran 2-3 tenths slower at red bluff from ming all flats.Even our 006 boat went quicker at ming as well as mph.I do know the rope to beam at ming is longer than ihba courses(i leave on a 6 vs leaving on a 7 coming on at ming) that can make for a quicker et.I would really like to run a comp flat that usually runs at ming guess i have to wait til oct. :)
If the comps that run at ming raced ihba they would easily have the 7.91 et record.
robert, i think it has more to do with the distance from the water to the beam. my boat tends to be pretty flat to the water when it crosses the beam, both on ihba and njba setups. chowchilla cause a problem for me, with the water coming up on sunday, just like it did to rick, as his hydro is also flat when it crosses the beam. all day saturday, the beam was a good 2' above the water, then sunday the water slowly came up all day. with the water that low, i go under the beam. last september at ming, the water was way low, the beam too high on saturday. height of that start beam can make a big difference, the distance from rope to beam doesn't seem to matter nearly as much.
i've run red bluff for 4 years, right after a ming race, and each year i run the same setup from the ming race. the worst i've qualified up there is #2. weren't any differences for mark either. just a guess, but it probably makes more of a difference for boats that fly the nose really high off the rope. for me, there's no difference, as most of the time, the beams are right at the same height off the water, njba or ihba.

[Clockstart]

Nobody is going to build a 7.50 Comp Flat motor with the 7.70 rule.Better check with Mike Jewel. His CF has run several 7.5's at Bako.

[pce680]

Better check with Mike Jewel. His CF has run several 7.5's at Bako.
NJBA does not have a 7.70 rule.I was refering to running 7.50 at a IHBA race.

[pce680]

[QUOTE=bp]
at the last ihba race at ming, which was in 2001 with the track backwards, we ran within a few hundredths of what we did at red bluff, or ming on njba lights, with the setup we had in risky business at the time. and if i recall correctly, you were having a few issues at the time.
As I remember,Zellmer had the wrong impellor in the boat or took the gear box out.He was runing 8.50's all weekend.Burrows went to the finals that race with a 8.40 in the final.My boat, Who Cares,and Prop Dusteralso lost about .3 with the same air.My boat went from a 8.02 at NJBA to a 8.32,8.34 and a 8.39.

[bp]

[QUOTE=bp]
at the last ihba race at ming, which was in 2001 with the track backwards, we ran within a few hundredths of what we did at red bluff, or ming on njba lights, with the setup we had in risky business at the time. and if i recall correctly, you were having a few issues at the time.
As I remember,Zellmer had the wrong impellor in the boat or took the gear box out.He was runing 8.50's all weekend.Burrows went to the finals that race with a 8.40 in the final.My boat, Who Cares,and Prop Dusteralso lost about .3 with the same air.My boat went from a 8.02 at NJBA to a 8.32,8.34 and a 8.39.
actually, at the opener we had a bad miss in the engine, then bent an intake valve. the flat nasty guys had a spare valve that keith borrowed, so we worked 'til 3am changing it, but still had the miss the next day. at ming, the miss was still there, ripped out the dedenbear that was in the boat, and the miss went away.
we had always been getting lots of "input" from outsiders that the gear sucked too much hp. so, once we got rid of the miss, we installed a C and removed the gear. boat ran 8.48, looking like a tank in the process. rather than keep messing around like we had for 1 1/2 races, i pulled the C and reinstalled the A and the box so we could: 1) run something that would work, and 2) get back in the game. next pass was back in the .80s where it belonged. i think we qualified #2, but all my old info is over in havasu so i can't verify at the moment. but what i won't forget is that after all that work, the boat ran a nice low .80 in the first round against frank and the pass looked a lot better with the engine further forward. unfortunately, kz redlit in the first round even though we had .6 to play with, index wise.
i do remember burrows running that race, but not what he did. but, also from what i remember, they weren't that far off what they usually ran back then. rich was always kind of like a yoyo, (6change?). i remember there was a period when you were having some cavitation/pump issues, thought that was around that same time.
the next red bluff race, we left things pretty much the same and ran within a few hundredths, but had popoff issues on saturday. dan had some spare parts, so we got it fixed. et was very close to what we had run at ming.

[bp]

Better check with Mike Jewel. His CF has run several 7.5's at Bako.
that's a quick boat...