View Full Version : How Does It Work??????????????
junkyardhunter
08-26-2006, 08:52 PM
how does a shoe work.I know it forces water into the pump & helps lift the hull.But how does it lift the hull and how does shoe depth change things.One more question (flat,taper,back-cut) shoes what are the pros & cons of each
502 JET
08-27-2006, 02:51 PM
I dont know.But.........
I did a search for shoe (http://www.***boat.net/forums/search.php?searchid=1168632&pp=25&page=1) and there is a lot of good info in the archives.Take a look through the old posts and you will find some answers.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 05:43 PM
I also looked in the archives lots of good info.But nobody will give you a clear answer.(all I see is alot of post saying I shimmed mine down .125 and boy she is really fast now) BUT WHY & HOW DOES IT WORK.
67weimann
08-27-2006, 05:54 PM
it all depends on what "your" hull wants. Every hull acts differently. The shoe set-up depends on what speeds you're running, your hull, how much power your mill is making, etc.
In other words, it affects the "bite" the intake will take out of the water. If you have the power and are running good numbers, you can take a big bite but if you aren't running good numbers it will slow your boat down.
What's your hull and mill? What numbers you running?
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 06:24 PM
Its a 19' hawaiian bbc spinning an aggressor b cut @ 5500 gps @ 74mph
El Prosecutor
08-27-2006, 06:48 PM
Its a 19' hawaiian bbc spinning an aggressor b cut @ 5500 gps @ 74mph
Dang! I didn't know Hawaiians could go that fast - that is encouraging, there is hope yet!
Oh yeah I forgot. Not only do I have a 19' Hawaiian, I've got an Olds...
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 07:16 PM
how fast are you with your olds.
El Prosecutor
08-27-2006, 07:24 PM
how fast are you with your olds.
Under 60 :cool:
67weimann
08-27-2006, 08:06 PM
What pump?
Do you have the stock rock grate or have you upgraded to a loader or anything?
I believe you have to modify the intake to accept a shoe and ride plate, but once you do that, you can play with the setup. Don't quote me on that cuz I ain't sure about the whole thing either.
The post earlier about the "bite" is good, basically the depth of the shoe relates to the pressure in the suction piece, more shoe, more pressure.There is alot more to it than just depth of shoe, you can start playing with openings later on down the road.Its cool when you have a data logger and make some of these changes to see what does what. I was surprised to see how much water I can pick up or block out by changing the opening rather than raising or dropping the biting edge.
The type of shoe you use affects how the boat rides, BC lifts the ass end, taper helps carry the nose.I personaly like the back cut shoes for most boats, it seems alot of jet gurus favor the taper shoes.
Chris.
I believe you have to modify the intake to accept a shoe and ride plate, but once you do that, you can play with the setup. Don't quote me on that cuz I ain't sure about the whole thing either.
that is correct, the intake must be removed from the hull to machine it for a shoe and rideplate, its a big job but its a must if you want to set up your boat.
chris.
W.O.T
08-27-2006, 08:23 PM
that is correct, the intake must be removed from the hull to machine it for a shoe and rideplate, its a big job but its a must if you want to set up your boat.
chris.
hey cs19 would a loader scoop be a good choice if you wanted an improvement and didnt want to much hassle?
http://www.berkeleyjet.com/products/loaders.htm
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 08:25 PM
so does moving the biting edge change hull lift or does it only affect suction pressure.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 08:29 PM
What pump?
Do you have the stock rock grate or have you upgraded to a loader or anything?
I believe you have to modify the intake to accept a shoe and ride plate, but once you do that, you can play with the setup. Don't quote me on that cuz I ain't sure about the whole thing either.
yes I am running some type of loader(not sure what kind),shoe(taper),rideplate.my set up is wayout of wack.
I tryed playing with the shoe & rideplate this weekend.
MikeF
08-27-2006, 08:30 PM
hey cs19 would a loader scoop be a good choice if you wanted an improvement and didnt want to much hassle?
http://www.berkeleyjet.com/products/loaders.htm
Whatever you do, Stay away from this one>>>>>>http://www.berkeleyjet.com/images/620_I-53.JPG
There is more perfomance gain in detailing the impeller and tightening up the clearances in your pump.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 08:32 PM
whats wrong with it.and no I an not running that one.
MikeF
08-27-2006, 08:37 PM
whats wrong with it.and no I an not running that one.
It is a loader....cause someone sells it as a loader. That does not make it a good one.
Lookie here (http://home.pacbell.net/jmcclure/Loaders.html) to see the real thing. :)
And here (http://home.pacbell.net/jmcclure/ShoePlate.html) for the shoe stuff. :cool:
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 08:51 PM
so what is a good starting point for a 500 hp heavy lake boat
Mike D.
08-27-2006, 08:52 PM
The post earlier about the "bite" is good, basically the depth of the shoe relates to the pressure in the suction piece, more shoe, more pressure.There is alot more to it than just depth of shoe, you can start playing with openings later on down the road.Its cool when you have a data logger and make some of these changes to see what does what. I was surprised to see how much water I can pick up or block out by changing the opening rather than raising or dropping the biting edge.
The type of shoe you use affects how the boat rides, BC lifts the ass end, taper helps carry the nose.I personaly like the back cut shoes for most boats, it seems alot of jet gurus favor the taper shoes.
Chris.
by changing depth & openineg up my shoe gave me 10 mph, 19 ft gullwing, we didn`t have a data logger did old school went until it was to much. we plew the tail talk about a wild ride. the more horse power i give the boat the more water it wants. Next boat i`ll have to try the data acquasition systems has got to be quicker to dial in a boat that way.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 08:58 PM
by changing depth & openineg up my shoe gave me 10 mph, 19 ft gullwing, we didn`t have a data logger did old school went until it was to much. we plew the tail talk about a wild ride. the more horse power i give the boat the more water it wants. Next boat i`ll have to try the data acquasition systems has got to be quicker to dial in a boat that way.
so what was the final depth.how much power and what kinda speeds
MikeF
08-27-2006, 08:59 PM
Its a 19' hawaiian bbc spinning an aggressor b cut @ 5500 gps @ 74mph
The pump is where you want to start. Rpm too high and speed too low. A loader ain't gonna make it any faster. :rollside:
W.O.T
08-27-2006, 09:07 PM
thanks mike d. 10mph sounds pretty sweet. i have an 18ft challenger 468 600hp. my berk pump has a an ab impellor. the impellor and bowl were both blueprinted. i have a diverter but no droop. i still have the stock intake how much do you think a shoe or loader grate would benefit my setup? any suggestions would be great.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 09:17 PM
The pump is where you want to start. Rpm too high and speed too low. A loader ain't gonna make it any faster. :rollside:
what do you mean.the pump is fresh new impeller HTP wear ring. do you think a droop would help.
hey cs19 would a loader scoop be a good choice if you wanted an improvement and didnt want to much hassle?
http://www.berkeleyjet.com/products/loaders.htm
I would definatly look into some sort of loader grate, your probably not getting the water the impeller needs so yes it should help.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 09:21 PM
what do you mean.the pump is fresh new impeller HTP wear ring. do you think a droop would help.
I know my hull is no speed demon but I want to get the most out of it.
Mike D.
08-27-2006, 09:22 PM
so what was the final depth.how much power and what kinda speeds
remember every hull is different a few of my buddies have the same boat and they are running good with a standard set up from mpd, this is were i started too my opening was 14 in from front of loader grate to furthest point on shoe. Shoe was about 3/16 to 1/4 above keel. It is now 14 3/8 & 1/8 above keel. speeds are a 100 plus, hp 1000 plus. mpd are the guys to talk to they have experience with all different types of jets and set ups. i bet they would get you close right off the trailer, then fine tune like i did.
so does moving the biting edge change hull lift or does it only affect suction pressure.
Good question. When it comes to backcut stuff I personally think you will see more lift from a shoe with more close off, how much? I dont know. The area of backcut is greater with a closed off shoe and should provide more lift.
Ive ran some small openings with flat shoes and didnt think it was having much affect on the attitude of the boat but the small opening did reduce inlet pressure which was what I was trying to do at the time.The ass did ride wet and the nose was up a bit compared to the BC stuff but thats probably a normal scenario?
I havent dabbled with tapered stuff enough to comment.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 09:46 PM
Good question. When it comes to backcut stuff I personally think you will see more lift from a shoe with more close off, how much? I dont know. The area of backcut is greater with a closed off shoe and should provide more lift.
Ive ran some small openings with flat shoes and didnt think it was having much affect on the attitude of the boat but the small opening did reduce inlet pressure which was what I was trying to do at the time.The ass did ride wet and the nose was up a bit compared to the BC stuff but thats probably a normal scenario?
I havent dabbled with tapered stuff enough to comment.
how much suction pressure am I looking for (70-80 mph range)
by changing depth & openineg up my shoe gave me 10 mph, 19 ft gullwing, we didn`t have a data logger did old school went until it was to much. we plew the tail talk about a wild ride. the more horse power i give the boat the more water it wants. Next boat i`ll have to try the data acquasition systems has got to be quicker to dial in a boat that way.
Thats awesome Mike, glad to hear its coming around.. Its so rewarding to find some mph in a set up, especially 10mph..
how much suction pressure am I looking for (70-80 mph range)
Im more into the 100-120 mph stuff so its hard for me to say,Ive never seen data from a boat at those speeds..Im guessing 25-35 lbs. is ballpark, if you can get more it probably wont hurt, its best to make small changes and see whats happening by GPS or something.
Ive ran as much as 80 lbs. in my boat for comparison.
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 09:56 PM
Thanks for all the info. it looks like I need to do some more test & tune
djdtpr
08-27-2006, 10:08 PM
How does a positraction rear end work in a chrystler?It just does!!!!!!
I couldnt pass it up i saw this thread and right away thought of Joe Dirt. :rollside:
junkyardhunter
08-27-2006, 10:12 PM
How does a positraction rear end work in a chrystler?It just does!!!!!!
I couldnt pass it up i saw this thread and right away thought of Joe Dirt. :rollside:
is that you dirt
SmokinLowriderSS
08-28-2006, 03:08 AM
Whatever you do, Stay away from this one>>>>>>http://www.berkeleyjet.com/images/620_I-53.JPG
There is more perfomance gain in detailing the impeller and tightening up the clearances in your pump.
HEY!! I have one of those! It's hanging on the wall of the garage. It was the best idea arround .... back in the '70's. :p
Modern loaders are much better, I understand the "modded rock-grates" really don't do very much.
painterdan32
08-28-2006, 04:09 AM
I've been working through this myself. Talking with PM's and looking at old threads. I noticed a kit from ARS Marine which says you dont have to machine the intake. Has a couple of compliments on it also.
Shoe and Ride Plate Kits
Now you can ADD a High performance Shoe and ride Plate Kit to your Stock Berkeley Intake without the hassles of removing and machining it. Will only fit Berkeley intake #s 2155 usually located under the bellhousing or under the oil pan on the pump intake. Test's have shown that boats with ARS shoe and ride plate kits have gained anywhere from 2-10 MPH on boats that run at least 63 MPH and are light enough to Benefit from the added stern lift. We have designed many kits that are available contact us with your specific application.
#GM 154000 $175.00
Finished machined with stainless hardware & Epoxy $260.00
Does anyone else know about this/ used this/ got the instructions for it/?
Seems a lot cheaper and easier than the one from CP Performance. I'm wondering also; Do I need to remove my large rudder for one of these setups? I really don't think I want that in a channel around here... do I?
MikeF
08-28-2006, 05:13 AM
I know my hull is no speed demon but I want to get the most out of it.
Here's the thing. How much money are you willing part with to make the most out of it? :skull:
MikeF
08-28-2006, 05:15 AM
PD32, Roostwear may have put that one on (but I'm not sure it is the same one). You'd be able to find it w/ a search.
IMPATIENT 1
08-28-2006, 06:36 AM
PD32, Roostwear may have put that one on (but I'm not sure it is the same one). You'd be able to find it w/ a search.
roost did a nice install thread on his 12je pump shoe/ride plate kit.he was runnin a hi-tech shoe and ride plate kit, i'm runnin one too and they work awesome!! it sped me up and holds my nose down on hard launches, rides better afterward too.i run 2 1/2 degrees angle on the rideplate on my sj v-hull, this is where mine ran fastest without gettin too loose at wot.
painterdan32
08-29-2006, 03:16 AM
PD32, Roostwear may have put that one on (but I'm not sure it is the same one). You'd be able to find it w/ a search.
Read that one already. Re read it this morning. Thanks. I dont want to mess with someone elses thread, But all this searching on a dialup computer sucks. Any one have one on a JC pump? I'm just trying to control porpise and stil run a small tail. Diverter down slows me down.
IMPATIENT 1
08-29-2006, 07:31 AM
Read that one already. Re read it this morning. Thanks. I dont want to mess with someone elses thread, But all this searching on a dialup computer sucks. Any one have one on a JC pump? I'm just trying to control porpise and stil run a small tail. Diverter down slows me down.
http://hi-techperformance.com/images/C_G_Shoe_Kit_293.jpg
here's a hi-tech bolt on kit that'll halp ya alot!
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