timing chain and cam thrust bearing... [Archive]

shaun

09-13-2006, 12:54 AM

Tonight i was mocking up some things to check tolerances and i ran into a few issues. First thing I'm not sure about is the timing chain set. It's the Rollmaster , same one steelcomp used in his build. I installed the gear on the crank, installed the cam and then bolted the top gear on. all looked ok to the eye but when spinning the motor i noticed the cam pull out alittle bit, a closer look looks like the crank gear sits out alittle bit further from the top gear, putting a straight edge across the 2 gears shows the problem if i force the cam in. If i let the cam pull out and put a straight edge on it they line up. I took a feeler gauge and it looks like the cam is sliding out .024 or so to align. Is this a problem? How should i correct it?
Another problem i have is that with the cam thrust bearing installed when i try to install my timing cover the bearing hits the cover, in fact i need probably 1/4 to 1/2" more clearance, I'm not sure if i installed this thrust bearing right (looks like it) but I'm assuming i need a different timing cover?
Thrust bearing installed, i think that's right, my book doesn't talk about a roller setup.
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12279-1/DSCF4542.JPG
Here's a pic showing the cap between the block and bearing on the cam gear. I managed to get a .024 feeler gauge in the gap.
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12282-1/DSCF4543.JPG
Here's a picture of the inside of my timing cover.
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12285-1/DSCF4544.JPG
Picture of the front of the cover
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12288-1/DSCF4546.JPG
Another question out of the blue, does it matter which bearing goes in the cap or rod with clevite rod bearings? both bearings look the same and i couldn't find anything that said if it mattered.

GofastRacer

09-13-2006, 04:33 AM

cruser

09-13-2006, 07:09 AM

If the cam gear is on backwards, why is the timing index showing?

GofastRacer

09-13-2006, 07:40 AM

It just looks like it's on backwards because of that raised portion but it's not!..

bigblockbill

09-13-2006, 08:46 AM

Another question out of the blue, does it matter which bearing goes in the cap or rod with clevite rod bearings? both bearings look the same and i couldn't find anything that said if it mattered.
If your using the standard series bearings it does not matter and is not marked either way. If your using the "R" series bearings it does matter and is marked.
As far as your timing situation if that is a roller set up with the torringington bearing behind the gear you should have approx .010 play once the timing cover is installed. You have to dent the cover in or out to achieve this. Everyone I have ever done worked out pretty close where it just took a little denting... not 1/2 or 1/4 inch. (If your not running a roller everything might be fine... just take the trust bushing out and your good to go, just make sure the crank sproket is all the way on.)

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 09:00 AM

shaun

09-13-2006, 12:28 PM

Looks like cam gear is on backwards, but I guess not there's no index for the cam, does the cam fit in the index of the gear???.. BTW, is the crank gear all the way on????.
Rod and cap bearings are the same, just make sure the tangs are in the slots in both!..
I dont think it's on backwards, this gear has a bearing behind it that i assume was to push up against the block and keep it from grinding away.

shaun

09-13-2006, 12:35 PM

He isn't going to be able to dent that aluminum cover.
Shaun, what you need to do is to find the short thrust bumper. The Manley 42113 is for small blocks, but has .690" overall length, and if I am not wrong, is the one you need with that particular aluminum timing cover.
I agree that you need to make sure the crank gear is fully seated against the crank.
You also probably want to get a cam lock plate, if you don't have one already, to lock the camshaft bolts so they can't back out. Cheap insurance, maybe $3-$4
I agree with you, i wont be able to dent it, even if i could why would i want to, a polished or chromed cover with a dent well definitly be visable!
This cover does have some extra material inside where the thrust bearing would press up against the timing cover, i could probably get a shorter bearing and shave the inside of the cover alittle bit if needed. There's probably 1/16th to 1/8" or so thats sticking out.
The crank gear as far as i can tell is on all the way, it was butted up against the crank when i put it on, i wont doubt that it could go on alittle bit more if i give it some good wraps with a hammer but i highly doubt it's going to move .024 if at all. One thing i'm thinking about now that i didnt think about then was crank end play, installing the crank gear with a peice of wood and a hammer probably pushed the crank all the way back, so then i may actually only have a .018 space if the crank if pushed forward.
So how am i suppose to correct this?

shaun

09-13-2006, 01:26 PM

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 01:39 PM

another quick q, the thrust bearing moved in and out of the hole it rests in, is it suppose to do that? Also i saw on summits site that they sell oversized head bolts for use with these, is that something i need?
Shaun,, get the other thrust setup I mentioned. I have used that same timing cover before. You may need to dust the nub in the cover, but you will need to mock it up first and check the cam thrust. You can either do that off the rear cam surface if you haven't put the rear cam plug in, and you can access that area with the block on the stand, or you can position your magnetic base so you can set the indicator against one of the cam lobes. You should be looking for .010" endplay with the cover and gasket. Put several bolts in for the test, no gasket sealer yet.
Also, get the cam lock plate instead of wide headed bolts. Once everthing is checked, degreed, tightened, etc, you fold up the ears of the plate against the bolts so the cam bolts have no way to loosen up. Its a cheap part, but I know you want one as careful as you have been with your engine. All of the cam makers sell them,, grab one when you get the shorter cam thrust setup.
I use a piece of pipe to install crank gears,, so it transmits the feel real well when I tap the gear on. You can definately tell when the gear bottoms out. I didn't see a photo of the gear, but I assume the timing mark is out, and the chamfer is facing the crank?

shaun

09-13-2006, 02:27 PM

Thanks, i'll order a shorter one, wish i could just get these things local but i doubt anybody carys them, sick of waiting 2 days every time i need somthing :) I actually do already have a cam bolt lock plate but the hole in the center of it looks like it gives enough room to slide the bearing in and out of it... i'll check in alittle bit to make sure.
I used wood for the hard wraps against the gear but rex's impeller nut socket works great too :)
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12297-1/DSCF4535.JPG

MikeF

09-13-2006, 03:11 PM

When you install the timing cover, there should be a small clearance between the small thrust bearing and the cover. It is not meant to be pressing the timing gear into the torrington bearing/block. It is just to help keep the cam from moving forward. :rollside:

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 03:42 PM

If you were closer I would let you use one of mine and replace it, but you can get one sent to you just as quickly. The propeller socket should be fine, and you should be able to feel when it gets real "solid".
The next step would be pull the crank gear and have a look at it, it would be much better if the two sprockets line up correctly. You can still degree the cam without having the thrust bumper.

shaun

09-13-2006, 03:50 PM

I just took a few measurements, with the timing cover installed and cam pressed all the way in i have a 6/32" (0.1875") gap before the cover will seal, thats not including the gasket. I also took a measurement of the thrust bearing and that cam out to 0.943. The outside peice of the bearing looks real easy to remove and i could grind to fit but thats probably not worth it to save 10 bucks.
I'm still a bit concerned with the cap behind the gear mounted to the cam because this is also going to affect my thrust bearing clearance. Really the gap behind it isnt all that much but it does affect the alignment of the gears and if they are not aligned wouldnt this contribute to extra wear on the chain and early failure?
obnoxious001: Found 2 sizes at summitracing.com 0.680 in. and 0.640 in, they didnt have any 0.690. Does it matter if i get one for a small block? are they the same?

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 04:14 PM

If you have access to a lathe,, you could take off .250 and be in the game. If you pull that tiny snap ring out, you have to be extremely careful, they bend easily. We used to keep new spare snap rings around since we almost always took them apart to turn in the lathe. You could try the .680 log. The Manley part number I listed above is for a .690 long. It's pretty difficult to measure while it is too long? .187 seems wrong?
They make several different size thrust bumpers now for some of the different combinations and timing covers. Even with the .690", sometimes some work is required to make it all fit and end up with the .010" endplay.
Were you not saying the CRANK gear was .024 further out than the CAM gear? Does that cam gear have a one piece thrust bearing set behind it,, or 3 piece (two washers and one Torrington bearing)? If it is the 3 piece,, a washer can drop and make the cam gear .030" too far forward? Check everything again, there is an answer in there somewhere, and feel free to IM me.

tbanzer

09-13-2006, 05:39 PM

I had the same problem on a BBC. Useing A straight edge the crank gear was out about .050". I tried several timing sets and they were the same. I Took some .050 sheet metal and made a shim for between the cam gear and the block, been running for several years now.

shaun

09-13-2006, 06:51 PM

wsuwrhr

09-13-2006, 07:24 PM

You could also take the thrust to a machine shop and have it faced down to the right size.
Looks like you have 5/8 or more material to take off if you needed to.
Brian

GofastRacer

09-13-2006, 07:28 PM

Well that's what I get for being busy, I miss out on this stuff, LOL.. Unless I missed it, did you check the crank gear to see if it was installed with the chamfer towards the crank, putting it on the wrong way will not allow it to go all the way on???..

steelcomp

09-13-2006, 07:36 PM

OK Shaun, here's the deal.
Call me. :rolleyes:

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 08:00 PM

.187 was the amount of space between the block and the timing cover (measured with a ruler all 4 corners to make sure i was square and got 6/32" on them all). If the number i took is correct then to get the right thrust bearing it would need one that was .7455 ( .943 - .1875 - .010 ). closest i see on summits site is .0795.
I'm going to pull it apart tonight and get some more pics and measurements.
tbanzer: Yes, that's actually what i was thinking i might have to do but wasn't sure what to use.
obnoxious001: if your online i'll IM you later with the results... You and I are the only ones up that late, lol
I seriously doubt you will be doing any shimming. You are too good at following directions and figuring out the correct way to get your engine together. I am still going to be the .690" or .680" one will be correct with that particular timing cover.

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 08:01 PM

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 08:22 PM

.187 was the amount of space between the block and the timing cover (measured with a ruler all 4 corners to make sure i was square and got 6/32" on them all). If the number i took is correct then to get the right thrust bearing it would need one that was .7455 ( .943 - .1875 - .010 ). closest i see on summits site is .0795.
If you take another .030" out for the gasket, and another .024" out for the extra distance the thing is sitting off the block, you get .6915,, or something like that. Did you get a good look at that crank gear yet? Maybe a piece of metal from the woodruff key got shaved off and behind the gear. Pull it off if you have not done so yet,, I bet your .024" is behind the crank gear?
For measuring purposes, you can remove the snap ring and measure just the center of the thrust assembly, it is probably just shorter than .690, and maybe you can stick some clay on the front of it or something once your timing set is lined up correctly?

bordsmnj

09-13-2006, 08:30 PM

pardon me for sking a really stupid question but is that a gen 6 block?

GofastRacer

09-13-2006, 08:34 PM

I asked him that in #10.
Yeah I saw that but I didn't see a reply???..

steelcomp

09-13-2006, 09:10 PM

obnoxious001

09-13-2006, 09:21 PM

My guess is that either the cam gear or the crank gear (or both) are machined wrong. That dosen't look anything like the Rollmaster I got for my engine. Even then, I had similar alignment issues. The thrust bearing problem dosen't matter untill he solves the alignment problem.
It looks to me like one of the Australian made sets, but we haven't seen any photos of the crank gear yet. I used quite a few of them, alignment was always fine, but timing was off considerably on some, like they marked or machined the crank gear backwards!
I agree with you about the thrust bearing not meaning anything until it is properly aligned,, think I indicated that to him. He hasn't been in direct contact with me today, don't know if he has a puller to get that crank gear off, but I suspect the answers will be forthcoming.

shaun

09-14-2006, 12:21 AM

I talked with steelcomp a bit i decided to put my old gear back on and see if it changed anything, i also have a comp set that i bought but replaced because it didnt have a thrust bearing. I put my original gear on and for some reason the chain wouldnt go on properly, i think the teeth are bent. I pulled out the comp cams one and installed just the crank gear and starting checking things and this is where i noticed somthing weird. If i have the engine set so that the crank is above the cam, the cam does not want to come out as easy, in fact a few times it stayed in and a few times is drifted out but never to .024. I dont really get this, i though it was maybe because the engine stand was leaning from the weight but i proped it up and same thing. Anyway i installed the full kit from comp cams next and it pulled out alittle bit the same, i then reinstalled the "rollmaster" kit and it had the same issue. Another thing i noticed was that the rollmaster crank gear takes alot more force to get it on. My old gear and the new comp cams gear went on fairly easy, still had to beat it but not as hard. Right now i'm not sure what to think, i'm going to call competition in the morning and find out if i really have a rollmaster or if this is some knock off because steelcomp is right, it looks nothing like his (ok maybe they changed things) and it doesnt have rollmaster stamped anywhere on it (like his does) also i guess the chain is a roll on where as rollmasters come with a diffrent one.
Here's a pic of the comp alignment, hard to see by eye. These one also pulled out alittle bit but it seamed like much less, i didnt take a measurment just trying to stick the feeler guage (.024) into it and it woudlnt go.
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12303-1/DSCF4552.JPG
Another pic of the comp cams one.
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12306-1/DSCF4553.JPG
Here's a picture of the rollmaster, if i square up the crank and crank gear like i did in this pic you can see the gap on the cam gear.
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12315-1/DSCF4556.JPG
Here's the back of the rollmaster crank gear
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12300-2/DSCF4551.JPG
And a picture of the full set
http://reitanfamily.com/gallery/d/12318-1/DSCF4533.JPG

GofastRacer

09-14-2006, 04:33 AM

And I thought that shit was supposed to be top of the line!. :2purples: Wish I could see this deal in person, there has to be a simple solution to this!.. :confused:

steelcomp

09-14-2006, 06:23 AM

And I thought that shit was supposed to be top of the line!. :2purples: Wish I could see this deal in person, there has to be a simple solution to this!.. :confused:I don't think it's a true Rollmaster. Comp Products is selling it as a "billet timing set", with the same P/N as what they used to sell as the Rollmaster, but it's not packaged like the Rollmaster which I purchased was, and isn't stamped with their name. Comp Products buys a lot of bulk stuff and does their own packaging...some brand name stuff, some that may be knock-offs or discontinued/blem/second items. My Rollmaster came in the manufacturer's clear plastic packaging with color labels, logos, etc., not some generic white cardboard box. It was stamped "Rollmaster" on the package, from Australia. Of course, there was this...it was described on the package as having the high dollar "Iwis" chain, but the chain in the set was actually a Rolon. Comp Products had no explaination. :idea:

cfm

09-14-2006, 07:24 AM

http://www.romac.com.au/pdf/2005%20C&B%20Product%20List.pdf
http://www.romac.com.au/pdf/USA%20Distributors.pdf
Steelcomp - strange on your timing chain. They list the Rolon as being on there economy set and the Iwis on the 'red label' premium set.
Did you both get from same place ? Have either of you contacted Romac to see if on there end or what the truth should be ?

Sleek-Jet

09-14-2006, 07:46 AM

My only experience with Rollmasters is when I was building my FE in the star crossed Campbell... The crank gear fit very tight, almost like it had to be pressed on. It did not just fall on and off like the Comp set that was originaly on the motor. Once I got the gear completely seated (it needed some persuasion), everything lined up nice and tight.
I also had the Rollmaster in the clear plastic packaging, but with the Rolon chain, not the Iwis.

shaun

09-14-2006, 12:55 PM

Scott (steelcomp) nice catch on the set, your right, i called competition products today and they dont sell the rollmaster anymore, they replaced it with this no name billet deal. I'm sending them this thing back and i ordered a real rollmaster set with the iwis chain from Engine Rebuilders Warehouse. Thanks for talking the time to talk with me on the phone!
I had a hell of a time finding anybody online that sold these, so if anybody else is looking for them here's there website.
Engine Rebuilders Warehouse -> http://fastengineparts.com/sub_categories.php?mid=3&id=185

Fiat48

09-14-2006, 01:31 PM

A heads up on the Rollmaster Iwis chain deal.
2 years ago I built a N/A 541 roller cam deal using the Billet setup and Iwis chain. I worked on that boat last week replacing an "SFI approved" balancer that was coming apart. I noticed a lot of slack in the chain while replacing this balancer. I showed the guy and we will change to a gear drive this winter.
So those thinking the IWIS chain setup doesn't stretch....there ya go.
Shaun this does not mean to panic on the set you just ordered. Your valvetrain loads are a Hell of a lot lighter than was this application.

bigblockbill

09-14-2006, 02:32 PM

A heads up on the Rollmaster Iwis chain deal.
2 years ago I built a N/A 541 roller cam deal using the Billet setup and Iwis chain. I worked on that boat last week replacing an "SFI approved" balancer that was coming apart. I noticed a lot of slack in the chain while replacing this balancer. I showed the guy and we will change to a gear drive this winter.
So those thinking the IWIS chain setup doesn't stretch....there ya go.
.
Not to change the subject and hijack this tread but Fiat you complain about a little chain stretch after a few years... I would be afraid of the cam breaking on me with the gear drive setup within the first year. What about going with a belt drive instead?

Fiat48

09-14-2006, 02:57 PM

How bout I have run gear drives 25 years and never entered that situation of breaking a camshaft.
I was expecting the IWIS deal to be as good as the old Reynolds Cloyes setups were. Before their quality went away. Those ran for years and the chains never stretched. Even with high rpm and high spring seat pressures.
I was just reporting my findings for others to know.

shaun

09-14-2006, 05:04 PM

Fiat, Thanks for the heads up.
Now i just hope that everything lines up with this set :)

GofastRacer

09-14-2006, 07:33 PM

I don't think it's a true Rollmaster. Comp Products is selling it as a "billet timing set", with the same P/N as what they used to sell as the Rollmaster, but it's not packaged like the Rollmaster which I purchased was, and isn't stamped with their name. Comp Products buys a lot of bulk stuff and does their own packaging...some brand name stuff, some that may be knock-offs or discontinued/blem/second items. My Rollmaster came in the manufacturer's clear plastic packaging with color labels, logos, etc., not some generic white cardboard box. It was stamped "Rollmaster" on the package, from Australia. Of course, there was this...it was described on the package as having the high dollar "Iwis" chain, but the chain in the set was actually a Rolon. Comp Products had no explaination. :idea:
Ahh yes the "white cardboard box", can I relate to that shit!.. :mad:

GofastRacer

09-14-2006, 07:45 PM

I would be afraid of the cam breaking on me with the gear drive setup within the first year.
Why on earth would a cam break with a gear drive???. :confused:

GofastRacer

09-14-2006, 07:49 PM

A heads up on the Rollmaster Iwis chain deal.
2 years ago I built a N/A 541 roller cam deal using the Billet setup and Iwis chain. I worked on that boat last week replacing an "SFI approved" balancer that was coming apart. I noticed a lot of slack in the chain while replacing this balancer. I showed the guy and we will change to a gear drive this winter.
So those thinking the IWIS chain setup doesn't stretch....there ya go.
Ya know, I don't think there is a chain(of any kind) in this world that won't stretch, some are just better than others!... Oh well I'm off to the river for a week, yeahhh!.. :cool: :D

steelcomp

09-14-2006, 08:41 PM

Shaun, glad that went in the direction we were heading, and didn't turn into a dead end.
Glad I could help. Hope it solves the problem...should be interesting.
I've heard about the Iwis chain being the hot ticket, but I've also asked around about the Rolon chain, and haven't heard anyone say anything bad about it. Cam profiles can be as hard on chains as spring pressure and rpm. I think some of the hardest cams on chains are some of Comp's bigger rollers. You can cut about .015 out of the lash on some of those cams and they actually become useful.

396_WAYS_TO_SPIT

09-15-2006, 07:04 AM

man this is a great thread. You really are bringing out some knowledge in some of these old school guys;)

shaun

09-15-2006, 11:38 AM

396, If it wasnt for these guys i would be a mess! haha

shaun

09-23-2006, 02:07 PM

ok, got the actuall rollmaster timing set now, installed and still got some issues. First thing i noticed was that i could see a gap between the crank and gear, gave it a few more hard wraps with the hammer and wood and i could still see it. I could stick about a .004 feeler guage in the slit for about 3/4 the way around, i didnt have a feeler guage smaller so i couldnt see what it was the rest of the way. I did pull the gear and see if anything was behind it, nothing..
I also put a straight edge accross the 2 gears and took a feeler guage to it, looks like the cam gear is sitting about .010 too deep compared to the location the crank gear is currently sitting at. If for whatever reason i can get that .004 out of the crank gear then i'm still looking at .006" that the gears dont line up.
Not sure what i should do now?

deltaAce

09-24-2006, 11:17 AM

Look down the lifter bore holes to see that the cam lobes are centered to the lifter bore, then check your crank-cam gear alignment.

shaun

10-05-2006, 10:35 PM

Just a FYI in case anybody else seams to have this problem....
I pulled the crank gear off, took a fine file, and ran it around the crank edge that the gear buts up against a few times with minimal pressure... I also took a couple passes at the edges of the gear that but up against the crank.. reinstalled the gear and everything now lines up.. Guess there was a burr or somthing hanging it up, i checked for this but couldnt feel anything with my nail.. oh well. at least it's resolved.
Thanks for all your help.