Why don't boat builders... [Archive]

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Scarab Jet

09-20-2006, 10:39 AM

make [or take] a 20-footer boat like this and make a nice jet out of them? Think about it... It is roomy, practical and compared to what they charge nowadays for a cookie cutter jetboats, inexpensive (you can get this boat with a 150 horse 4-stroke outboard for around 30K BRAND NEW)... It is completely wood free (by the way)...
Just picture it... with a gas pedal, a set-back pump and either a 496 or the 6 liter fuel injected motor... what a great boat for the river or lake...
It sure would make a nice jet with the transom the way it is... a mold like this (sort of a gullwing) should still give an awesome ride with the tail up... For us guys with families, would be the best of both worlds, don't u guys agree?
Sure wish I was in the boat business... I'd do it myself and know that could sell a bunch of them...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/276Nauticstar5-med.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/276Nauticstar1-med.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/276Nauticstar3-med.jpg

Jordan_23_85205

09-20-2006, 10:42 AM

Try http://www.tridentboats.com/

Taylorman

09-20-2006, 10:48 AM

Try http://www.tridentboats.com/
He said $30 grand.

Taylorman

09-20-2006, 10:49 AM

I wonder if Ultra is gonna make their 21 deck in the Lightning boats line? That could be a reasonably priced 21 deck.

Scarab Jet

09-20-2006, 10:57 AM

Try http://www.tridentboats.com/
No, no, no my friend... that is exactly my point...
Trident Revolution:
- Too big for those of us that don't need 20 people on the boat at the same time
- Not exactly affordable (100K plus) for most of us
- Too big to store and tow (for some of us)
This mold:
- Affodable (if it is 30K with a 150 horse 4-stroke yamaha outboard), it can easily be at the same price or less with a chevy/dominator jet setup
- Just the right size to fit in the garage
- Can be put on a sigle axle trailer
Don't get me wrong... Wes has done an outstanding job on the Revolution... It is just not exactly affordable for those of us that want a practical family jet deck boat in a 20-foot configuration...
I.e., If a Kia will do and that's all I can afford to get me from point A to point B, why pay three times as much and buy a Beemer... I know, I know... the image thing... But for us family guys, we tend to care more for practicality and affordability than image...
Just my .02...

Rexone

09-20-2006, 11:36 AM

Jordan_23_85205

09-20-2006, 11:44 AM

He said $30 grand.
Didn't see that part :rolleyes:

Dan Lorenze

09-20-2006, 12:04 PM

I think Yamaha and Seadoo do a pretty good job of making practical and roomy jet boats. It might be a tough market to compete in. But I do see what you're saying...

Jbb

09-20-2006, 12:08 PM

The simple truth is imo that most CA builders don't want to make small boats because they make a lot more money on larger boats per dollar invested to build. Plus that's where the demand and sales numbers are now (since this trend was started about 15 years ago).
If the..... dare I say......real estate down turn....er....adjustment ...actually continues :p ......and all the leveraged ballers bail out of the bigger stuff.....I wonder if the boat builders will re think they're position?

Froggystyle

09-20-2006, 02:39 PM

If the..... dare I say......real estate down turn....er....adjustment ...actually continues :p ......and all the leveraged ballers bail out of the bigger stuff.....I wonder if the boat builders will re think they're position?
I'm already re-thinking mine...

flat broke

09-20-2006, 02:53 PM

Scarab,
You make some valid points, and Rex's explanation of why things are the way they are, is on the money. One thing you need to realize... the upgrade (and yes it would be an upgrade) from an OB to a big block and a jet is going to cost more than you realize. a 150hp OB is definitely cheaper than a big block and a jet, and that is to say nothing of the difference in cost to rig one over the other.
Outside of that, just sit back, wait another year, and you'll be able to swoop in on some stuff larger than you thought you could afford as folks start to fire sale the toys that are sitting on the equity line secured by the house. Actually if your stuff is sitting on an equity line and you can wait a little while your rate will more than likely come down in the begining of 07'. But that's a whole different conversation.
Chris

Marty Gras

09-20-2006, 05:25 PM

I feel it's not just the size question, but the quality of materials and putting your "Brand Name" on a product. Can we all agree that the power plant and drive systems have equal value/ cost, in big and smaller boats? This being a fact that builders must deal with while trying to stay in business (pay the bills). I feel that the yellow boat pictured is very nice for it's "price/ target" market, but 5, 8, 10 years down the road, will it's "quality/ value" be intact? (most of you will still have payments!) Will that boat hold any value? Will it hold together? First I will point out the seats, frames, foam, vinyl, stiching, design, and QUALITY OF FINISHED PRODUCT. I don't think Ultra Boats would ever consider using thiner or cheaper materials when doing interriors on their boats. This fact alone will make the Ultra Boat $1500 to $2000 more costly! (cost not retail) Then go into the costs of hand lay up and thru bolt rigging. Next we go to performance. Would any custom west coast builder use 115HP or 150HP (any motor) on a boat designed to carry 6 to 8 adults? I think not! We have all seen 3.0L motors in production "ski boats" at the boat shows, how many "customs" had them? It takes a measurable amount of power to move "any" boat with or without passengers in it. I feel price is the only reason some builders offer UNDERPOWERED boats. Now I ask, how can you compare these boat brands? I could go on and on, but I won't. Also, please don't ever compare "two stroke toys" to "actual powerboats"! I have built a number of "custom ordered boats" over the decades and I too would like to offer a "reasonably priced, QUALITY family boat", but it's a tuff place to do business. So if you can get a production boat builder to "crank out" some "reasonably priced", V8 jet drives for you, purchase one. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, so GOOD LUCK!

quiet riot

09-21-2006, 03:21 AM

Scarab,
the upgrade (and yes it would be an upgrade) from an OB to a big block and a jet is going to cost more than you realize. a 150hp OB is definitely cheaper than a big block and a jet, and that is to say nothing of the difference in cost to rig one over the other.
Chris
You might want to take a look at the price of a 4stroke 150. They run $16k plus. A decent stock factory warantied motor/pump combo can definately be had for less than that. Not saying that re-rigging of the hull for the pump wouldn't add some price but if they made a few, the comparable price motor/pump to outboard wouldn't stack up.
jd

flat broke

09-21-2006, 08:13 AM

You might want to take a look at the price of a 4stroke 150. They run $16k plus. A decent stock factory warantied motor/pump combo can definately be had for less than that. Not saying that re-rigging of the hull for the pump wouldn't add some price but if they made a few, the comparable price motor/pump to outboard wouldn't stack up.
jd
I think we may be talking about two different tiers of pricing. 16k sounds a lot like retail for that setup to me. Mfgs pricing is substantially different than what you see if you are looking at MSRP. As for the mfg cost on a 496, a jet with an intake setup for a shoe and rideplate, diverter; you'll be over 16k. Sure, you can go buy a GM zz502, slap some marinizing hardware on it, and probably be out the door retail for around 8-8500, but when a manufacturer does that, they assume a degree of liability, if for no other reason than engine related issues down the road. If they buy a Mercruiser/MarinePower/PCM setup already marinized, and just bolt it in, they alieviate themselves of much of that risk, though at a higher price for the motor.
Another issue, maybe John or Froggy could confirm or deny is that the corporate liability insurance premium is most likely tied to the HP and footage of the craft produced. I'm sure underwriters would see 115 or 150hp in a 21' boat as a much lower liability than 385 or 425 in the same craft. All of that factors in to the overall cost of building boats.
Marty Gras really summed it up the the reason you can't have Ultra quality at the pricepoint associated with the boat posted by Scarab Jet the best. My intention was to illustrate that in terms of total cost to the MFG, the jet setup is more expensive than a 115hp outboard.
Chris

BADAXE

09-21-2006, 09:59 AM

With gas prices the way they are there is not many people looking for V8 jet boats. I bet that outboard get triple the fuel mileage as a V8 jet.

moneysucker

09-21-2006, 10:17 AM

I don't see anything wrong with $5-6 a gal at 1 MPG. I just go as far as 15 gal will take me. then add another 5 on the way back from the sand bar to get in the lagoon. If you are conscerned about gas prices you can't afford a boat or to to it to the lake for that matter. The main point here should be that most jet boat guys are super cheap. How many are on the boards looking for some not so rusty headers or a used diverter. It is amazing anyone stays in business selling new parts. Everyone is buying used boats, used parts etc. I finally realized it would have been cheaper in the long run to have bought an Ultra rather than spend all the money I have on my boat.
Cy

quiet riot

09-22-2006, 01:42 AM

Many places such as KEM (http://www.kemequipment.com/superchargedvortec6000.html) have packages (jet/engine complete) that are less in both retail form and mfg pricing when compared to outboards. They are fully warranteed and many boats in our neck of the woods use these setups. There is a lot more out there than mercruiser and berkely. MFG's don't get all that great of deals from outboard companies, most around here are the dealers that rig the outboards unless you order the standard package with base outboard.
This is just my experience from working at a marine dealer that sold new setups and repowered many boats with merc/honda/berk etc.
jd
I think we may be talking about two different tiers of pricing. 16k sounds a lot like retail for that setup to me. Mfgs pricing is substantially different than what you see if you are looking at MSRP. As for the mfg cost on a 496, a jet with an intake setup for a shoe and rideplate, diverter; you'll be over 16k. Sure, you can go buy a GM zz502, slap some marinizing hardware on it, and probably be out the door retail for around 8-8500, but when a manufacturer does that, they assume a degree of liability, if for no other reason than engine related issues down the road. If they buy a Mercruiser/MarinePower/PCM setup already marinized, and just bolt it in, they alieviate themselves of much of that risk, though at a higher price for the motor.
Another issue, maybe John or Froggy could confirm or deny is that the corporate liability insurance premium is most likely tied to the HP and footage of the craft produced. I'm sure underwriters would see 115 or 150hp in a 21' boat as a much lower liability than 385 or 425 in the same craft. All of that factors in to the overall cost of building boats.
Marty Gras really summed it up the the reason you can't have Ultra quality at the pricepoint associated with the boat posted by Scarab Jet the best. My intention was to illustrate that in terms of total cost to the MFG, the jet setup is more expensive than a 115hp outboard.
Chris

flat broke

09-22-2006, 06:52 AM

So can you post a price on a Kodiak 420 horse 8.1? I couldn't find one on their site. If you're talking about the 6 cylinder motors with sportjets and the like, yeah, they can be had cheap, but you're going to need two of them to make the boat in question perform to any degree.
If you've got an inexpensive solution for rigging in a new mixed flow pump and engine package in the 380-450hp range post up some $$ and PNs. I'm sure a couple of the guys doing repower projects around here might find that information helpful.
Chris

Marty Gras

09-24-2006, 10:30 PM

My statement about, " ..powerplant/ drive systems .. have equal cost/ value in big and small boats", means the same sized motor costs the same for an 18' boat as it does for a 36' boat. How does that boat run with a 150 4 stroke on it? The one in the photo shows a 115HP! Can we compare a 150 O/B with a 350 Chevy and a mixed flow jet? Will they each both run about 50MPH with just the driver on board? How much labor is needed to rig the O/B, how much more for the jet? The O/B needs, 4 holes to mount, one hole for cables, hoses and wiring. One time the transom center is measured and that's it. The jet needs (depending on brand) intake hole measured, cut and holes drilled. Transom plate/s measured, cut, and holes drilled. What about sealing it all up? Time = money$$$. It's way cheaper to mount an O/B vs a jet and it's only got four holes to seal up. The top of the line Verado 275 can be purchased for $25K, (retail) with the steering and the DTS controls, I feel a $16K 150 (even Verado) is too high. I'm thinking an EFI 350, mixed flow (alum. imp) with power nozzle, should cost around $9500/ $10K. The next problem is that the hull will need some strong stringers, can't just "throw it in there". Then the deck mold will need to be retooled, and you will lose some cockpit space, because the motor goes inside the boat. Now, how many of these jets will our dealers ACTUALLY SELL? Can't you be happy with an openbow jet boat from a name you can trust? PS, a 20' boat with a 150 O/B or a 350 jet, should have tandem axles, not single. You were talking "safe family boat, at reasonable cost", not "the cheaper the better", RIGHT?

sanger rat

09-24-2006, 11:12 PM