safety topic!!!

[ColeTR2]

When I'm going to test on the river I just wear my lifeline and helmet. Not anymore! I'm putting it all on ballistic shorts to Helmet restraints I don't care if I look like a dork.

[Sangster]

The chance that you will have something happen at the river/lake far exceeds the chances at the drags... Not to mention that there are Resuce & EMT's at the drags...Wear your gear ALWAYS...That's why you bought it?

[GofastRacer]

Ditto!...

[rrrr]

Saturday morning at Plowman's a guy in a BAJ was making some passes with his gear on......took it off (along with the lanyard), made another pass, and got tossed. Someone swam out and grabbed the boat as it circled by....he was OK.
Be safe..

[wsuwrhr]

When or if I ever get enough money to finish my flat, I planned on doing the same.
I don't think I will wear anything special if I have passengers or just out putting around.
When I am planning on matting it, or if I am going out to wring it's neck I will definitely be suited up.
Shorts, lifeline, helmet.
Brian

[Schiada76]

At what MPH should you be wearing a helmet and shorts?

[Rexone]

At what MPH should you be wearing a helmet and shorts?
Try impacting your head on the deck of the boat sometime at 30 mph or so. You're gonna have more than a headache. Not being a smartass. If you're driving any boat on the edge of it's range you're at risk. Most head injuries occur from the head impacting some part of the boat if the boat crashes or even throws you out of the seat in an unanticipated manuver (like spinning a jet boat). I've seen people killed at relatively low boat speed in less than spectacular crashes.
Also, hit your head knocking you out, thrown in the water with no life jacket isn't a real good survival rate scenario either. Knocked out people tend to sink.
I don't think there is a MPH mark you can name as being not at risk. Depends on the boat and how you operate it.

[wsuwrhr]

I have used this arguement in the past to people when they bitched about wearing a motorcycle helmet.
At one time or another, everyone has hit their head on an open cabinet or closet door as they are walking through the house.
Smarts doesn't it? How fast are we walking, 1-2 miles an hour?
Brian
Try impacting your head on the deck of the boat sometime at 30 mph or so. You're gonna have more than a headache. Not being a smartass. If you're driving any boat on the edge of it's range you're at risk. Most head injuries occur from the head impacting some part of the boat if the boat crashes or even throws you out of the seat in an unanticipated manuver (like spinning a jet boat). I've seen people killed at relatively low boat speed in less than spectacular crashes.
Also, hit your head knocking you out, thrown in the water with no life jacket isn't a real good survival rate scenario either. Knocked out people tend to sink.
I don't think there is a MPH mark you can name as being not at risk. Depends on the boat and how you operate it.

[wsuwrhr]

RR2 had a get-out, "The Starfish".
Looked to an enexperienced v-driver(me) to be a relatively low-speed incident, maybe a bad chine catch? Either way, it got ugly in a hurry.
After that I promised Christie I wouldn't be driving the Hondo hard without wearing safety gear.
Brian
When I'm going to test on the river I just wear my lifeline and helmet. Not anymore! I'm putting it all on ballistic shorts to Helmet restraints I don't care if I look like a dork.

[Fiat48]

Well I just hate wearing all that shit..to tell you the truth. But my wife makes me do it. Yeah..I know better.
And on the motorcycle helmet deal.....I just hate more regulations and being told what I MUST do. I dont argue the safety factor.

[Schiada76]

Try impacting your head on the deck of the boat sometime at 30 mph or so. You're gonna have more than a headache. Not being a smartass. If you're driving any boat on the edge of it's range you're at risk. Most head injuries occur from the head impacting some part of the boat if the boat crashes or even throws you out of the seat in an unanticipated manuver (like spinning a jet boat). I've seen people killed at relatively low boat speed in less than spectacular crashes.
Also, hit your head knocking you out, thrown in the water with no life jacket isn't a real good survival rate scenario either. Knocked out people tend to sink.
I don't think there is a MPH mark you can name as being not at risk. Depends on the boat and how you operate it.
How about a bench mark?
Say, blown 19' Schiada semi-v?
Do you wear ballistic shorts and a helmet everytime you get in your boat? :idea:
Or when you're going to be making passes only?
Vest always of course, I've been wearing a ski vest if I'm just puttin around, Lifeline for passes.

[Rexone]

How about a bench mark?
Say, blown 19' Schiada semi-v?
Do you wear ballistic shorts and a helmet everytime you get in your boat? :idea:
Or when you're going to be making passes only?
Vest always of course, I've been wearing a ski vest if I'm just puttin around, Lifeline for passes.
Personally I'd suit up anytime I planned of running it hard with the Lifeline and Helmet. I see guys running hard quite often with lifeline but no helmet (I used to do this too b4 I knew better). I guess it's just too restrictive for most especially at the river/lake. Hopefully if they crash they'll be lucky and not hit the ol noggin on the way out. I got very used to wearing the equip in ski racing so it's not any big deal now and feels normal.
I dont have the shorts but also have never been drag racing at high speed. I probably should consider them as well even in the 100 mph range.

[DRAGBOAT FAN]

Check out this website for all your safety gear/product needs...www.lifelinejackets.com/. BE SAFER BY GEARING UP FOR EVERY PASS/OUTING!

[MandDPerformance]

I know Dad and I have been wearing Lifeline and Helmet every time we ran the boat since we started going fast. And for that I am greatful. I couldn't imagine my Dad right now without it. Pretty sure he would be dead. The helmet saved him from brain damage and the Lifeline kept him face up in the water when he was lying there unconcious for a time. I'm a huge fan of the Lifeline Jacket which keeps you floating face up. :) :)

[dmontzsta]

Lets talk about chute jackets. I know it was mentioned in the other thread that you land on your feet with a chute?

[LakesOnly]

I hate rules and regulations but am a firm believer in safety. Example: I always wear my motorcycle helmet when I ride...pretty much always have...but I despise that fact that it is a law in CA and other states. Can't even drive down the street at 20mph and listen to the bike's mechanicals w/o my head gear on.
As far as boating: I got tossed clear of the boat for the first time last year. Going about 50 MPH in the delta (always hated that place) and passed an oncoming cabin cruiser throwing a mean wake. Hopped the wake and then leaned back onto the throttle hard...only to have a hidden roller pop up and toss me out pronto. No other boats involved etc, and I had my life jacket on thank god because the boat landed ON ME and held me down as it cruised along before coming to rest (upright and still running). I had 7 screws and a bracket placed over/into my collar bone. (I am pleased to say that my very next time driving a boat was at the track going faster than I ever had before.)
I have always worn at least a vest but considering that the racing circuit is much more of a controlled enviornment (albeit higher speeds, yes) it only makes sense to don some safety gear if you intend to go "balls out" on your own somewhere on the public waterways. At least it does to me...I want to be able to be doing this for a long, long time. :D
LO

[gn7]

our rule is if you are playing, jacket and helmet always, no self control and somebody is bound the challenge you and few can say no. If we are testing there is aways a chase boat. Its a pain but it is the best plan.

[Mr. V-Driver]

Boy, what a Great Topic!!! Glad someone thought of it!!!

[vee-driven]

I flipped and totaled my kurtis t deck runner bottom at parker in front of echo lodge in may 2001 at close to 100mph i had nothing on but my shorts, i was knocked out and had been under water for over 5 minutes before being pulled out. Now evertime i go out and screw around i wear at least a life jacket with a kill switch. My new rayson craft 21 only does around 100mph so i am not really worried about the other stuff. Oh yeah and i dont fockoff with others in the boat, made that mistake once.

[Jetboatguru]

The whole Chute issue is one that has different angles for V drives vs Jets. The jet guys don't like to wear them because of how they are normally pitched out of a boat. Maybe some of the jet guys will chime in but somehow the chute will pull them back closer to the boat instead of away from it. The flatty and hydro drivers prefer the chute jackets because they will pull you away from the boat and slow you down before impact IF IT FUNCTIONS CORRECTLY. There are no guarantees but it is designed to give you your best odds. Ballistic shorts a MUST! Talk to Tom Bogdanich about not wearing ballistic shorts and crashing. They guarantee you to go home with an asshole after a crash.

[Jordy]

They guarantee you to go home with an asshole after a crash.
Wouldn't that depend on who you were riding with??? :D :D :D

[Jetboatguru]

Mitch we sure are glad you came in and pointed us in the right direction! The number of lives you may have saved is countless. Thank you !!

[Jetboatguru]

Wouldn't that depend on who you were riding with??? :D :D :D
You are correct Jordy. They are a great idea if you are around Rankin as well. Even he would have a hard time (dare I say it?) penetrating the ballistic shorts.

[Sangerboy]

You are correct Jordy. They are a great idea if you are around Rankin as well. Even he would have a hard time (dare I say it?) penetrating the ballistic shorts.
At times, for those who have never worn them, I will describe the placement of the padding and refer to them as ball- istic shorts.

[wsuwrhr]

At times, for those who have never worn them, I will describe the placement of the padding and refer to them as ball- istic shorts.
Great, I'll keep that in mind.
I guess it beats a colostomy bag.
Brian

[77charger]

When I'm going to test on the river I just wear my lifeline and helmet. Not anymore! I'm putting it all on ballistic shorts to Helmet restraints I don't care if I look like a dork.
I have been doing that all along with the flatbottoms i drive!another thing i have seen around the races lately is some drivers wearing baseball catcher style knee shin guards.I guess first things legs can hit are the decks and steering wheels.Another good idea..
Like guru mentioned if the chute does work it will save you from boat.In 03 we ran another boat with mine sean giroux was doin the drivin and it crashed between 1/8th and finsih line after seeing video there is no doubt in my mind it the chute did its job without it he would have been where the boat landed.I saw it from shore and all i saw was the yellow chute driver sliding feet first and coming to stop before boat landing.I am a firm believer in a chute many skip out on the price for it but is your life worth it??
As for the ballistic shorts when talking to bill at lifeline he said the injuries suffered from the sudden enema can take months to heal not weeks.

[flatrookie]

hey guys very new to all of this very little seat time. I am very interested in this thread and all the info can you guys get me some links to find gear please ? how does the chut actually work ? do you make your own ignition kill or does some company allready make something treick like that ? and how much for $ a lifeline w/chute and neck roll ? o yeah and the $ of shorts ?

[77charger]

Lifeline is the main choice for safety gear.A chute jacket will be at minimum 750(at least of 2 years ago) i believe shorts are arouind 160 bucks?.If you are seriously interested in buying gear from them i have a 25percent off voucher that you can have i have no need for it it expires 12-31-06

[VDRIVERACING]

Contact Lifeline for the jacket, shorts, helmet restraints, neck roll. I highly reccomend you order your jacket with thigh wraps rather than the crotch straps. Chute jacket is more expensive, heavier duty, but if you're dragging 120 Mph, it's advisable. You can get the Mercury kill switch setup from Rex Marine(rexmar.com). A lot of good helmets out there... DO NOT SCRIMP ON THE BRAIN BUCKET!!! Personally, I like the Shoei helmets. They are very comfortable, Snell approved, wide eye ports on the full face models.
Most of these items last a long time, and have proven over and over to save lives. Your most important high performance investment!

[flatrookie]

Lifeline is the main choice for safety gear.A chute jacket will be at minimum 750(at least of 2 years ago) i believe shorts are arouind 160 bucks?.If you are seriously interested in buying gear from them i have a 25percent off voucher that you can have i have no need for it it expires 12-31-06
once again thnx for all of the great info. I will have to pass on the voucher thank you though I have spent all the extra $ I can on the boat for right now x-mas will be here before I know thanx for all links

[502 JET]

Here are links to racing life jacket manufacturers.
Lifeline (http://www.lifelinejackets.com/catalog.html)
Diest Safety Equiptment (http://www.deist.com/Catalog.asp?category=410112050421459)
Security Race Products (http://www.securityrace.com/lifejackets.html)
Has anyone had a problem when not racing with the Marine Police because of their racing life jacket not being USCG approved?

[GofastRacer]

Has anyone had a problem when not racing with the Marine Police because of their racing life jacket not being USCG approved?
I was stopped twice on the strip and was commended for wearing my Lifeline, but it was recommended that I keep one of those worthless CG aproved jackets in the boat, this way if you get stopped by an a$$hole you won't get a ticket!..

[river redy]

I was stopped twice on the strip and was commended for wearing my Lifeline, but it was recommended that I keep one of those worthless CG aproved jackets in the boat, this way if you get stopped by an a$$hole you won't get a ticket!..
Do you have to carry the square pad floating device to?

[GofastRacer]

Do you have to carry the square pad floating device to?
Technically yes, it's a boat and you're on public waters and required to have all equipment!.

[Rexone]

You have to carry all the required stuff in addn to lifeline which isn't USCG approved. I normally throw a ski vest in the boat which is approved along with the cushion, etc.

[wsuwrhr]

Rexie,
I just wanted to mention that I am proud of you. I have always been.
OK?
Your friend,
Brian
You have to carry all the required stuff in addn to lifeline
which isn't USCG approved. I normally throw a ski vest in the boat which is approved along with the cushion, etc.

[rrrr]

Contact Lifeline for the jacket, shorts, helmet restraints, neck roll. I highly reccomend you order your jacket with thigh wraps rather than the crotch straps. Chute jacket is more expensive, heavier duty, but if you're dragging 120 Mph, it's advisable. You can get the Mercury kill switch setup from Rex Marine(rexmar.com). A lot of good helmets out there... DO NOT SCRIMP ON THE BRAIN BUCKET!!! Personally, I like the Shoei helmets. They are very comfortable, Snell approved, wide eye ports on the full face models.
Most of these items last a long time, and have proven over and over to save lives. Your most important high performance investment!
I think all of us should be aware of what helmet is the "right" one. A motorcycle helmet is not a racing helmet.
Snell Memorial Foundation Ratings establish standards for different types of helmets. If you race, get a helmet that is Snell SA2005 rated.
A few of the important characteristics of an SA helmet vs. a motorcycle helmet:
Large object impact resistance. The SA helmet must pass tests that prove its ability to withstand impacts from objects while minimizing gforce transfer to the head and providing object penetration resistance.
Flame resistance. Yeah, I know. You're in water. But nylon liners in motorcycle helmets melt in fire. You're already ugly enough.
Face shield. An SA helmet shield has been tested to withstand impact penetration and is fire resistant. It also has a positive closure catch to prevent it from opening in a crash.
Removeability. The SA helmet is designed so it can be easily removed from an injured driver without causing further injury. Mmmm, yeah, that's important.
Take the time to read up on this stuff. A good helmet will save your life. A couple of months ago Champ Car driver Cristiano DaMatta hit a deer at Road America while going 165 MPH. Cris was in a coma for weeks, but now is making phenomenal progress from the serious brain injury he received. Without the best helmet standards protecting him, he would be dead.
Snell SA2005 Standards (http://www.smf.org/standards/2005/sak2005/sa_k2005_final.html)

[wsuwrhr]

Good post,
having had to explain this to people in the past, it is nice that you posted
with the factual information.
All helmets are not created equal.
Brian
I think all of us should be aware of what helmet is the "right" one. A motorcycle helmet is not a racing helmet.
Snell Memorial Foundation Ratings establish standards for different types of helmets. If you race, get a helmet that is Snell SA2005 rated.
A few of the important characteristics of an SA helmet vs. a motorcycle helmet:
Large object impact resistance. The SA helmet must pass tests that prove its ability to withstand impacts from objects while minimizing gforce transfer to the head and providing object penetration resistance.
Flame resistance. Yeah, I know. You're in water. But nylon liners in motorcycle helmets melt in fire. You're already ugly enough.
Face shield. An SA helmet shield has been tested to withstand impact penetration and is fire resistant. It also has a positive closure catch to prevent it from opening in a crash.
Removeability. The SA helmet is designed so it can be easily removed from an injured driver without causing further injury. Mmmm, yeah, that's important.
Take the time to read up on this stuff. A good helmet will save your life. A couple of months ago Champ Car driver Cristiano DaMatta hit a deer at Road America while going 165 MPH. Cris was in a coma for weeks, but now is making phenomenal progress from the serious brain injury he received. Without the best helmet standards protecting him, he would be dead.
Snell SA2005 Standards (http://www.smf.org/standards/2005/sak2005/sa_k2005_final.html)

[flatrookie]

Here are links to racing life jacket manufacturers.
Lifeline (http://www.lifelinejackets.com/catalog.html)
Diest Safety Equiptment (http://www.deist.com/Catalog.asp?category=410112050421459)
Security Race Products (http://www.securityrace.com/lifejackets.html)
Has anyone had a problem when not racing with the Marine Police because of their racing life jacket not being USCG approved?
hey thank you for the links I checked them out what is the big difference between deist and lifeline ballistic shorts the diest are about 65$ and lifeline are 160$ ?

[Jetboatguru]

hey thank you for the links I checked them out what is the big difference between deist and lifeline ballistic shorts the diest are about 65$ and lifeline are 160$ ?
Flatrookie,
you should refer to the post above about the different quality of helmets and use that in you decision when buying ballistic shorts. :wink:

[ColeTR2]

http://www.lifelinejackets.com/llj_catalog_23.jpg
Head and neck support:
Allows ample rotation for unrestricted side and rear vision. No special special helmet or jacket model required-will adapt to existing helmets with only minor modifications.??
http://www.lifelinejackets.com/llj_catalog_12.jpg
SAFETY PANTS:
Guards against potential injuries caused by extreme water pressure and velocity. Made of 1000 Denier Cordura Nylon exterior and multiple layers of ballistic nylon interior.

[502 JET]

I copied this info on the shorts from the Diest website:
Anytime you are traveling at high speeds on water there is the potential danger of experiencing injuries caused by extreme water pressure and velocity. Protecting delicate areas of your body is something no one should overlook. Deist Safety has dedicated a lifetime to motor sports personal protection. When it comes to protection you cannot do better than Deist!
1000 Denier Nylon Cordura Exterior
Elastic Side Panel for added comfort
Same Ballistic Nylon interior as our Blower Restraints and Transmission Blankets
Designed to be worn over the top of a Driving Suit
If the material can protect you from the shrapnel of a trans explosion I would trust it to protect my A$$.

[SERIOUS ISSUES]

I have been wet 2 times. The first was without safety gear and on my way out I was wondering if I or my passenger would live or not. That is a shitty feeling to go though. After that I decided not to take people on high speed passes and to never drive a boat that fast without safety gear.
The second time I got wet, all I thought about was, this is going to hurt and how much is it going to cost. I had no question about being alive.
Trust the experience on these threads. The ones that have made that mistake (no gear) and are still here are the exception not the rule. I am thankful my wife and myself are still here today.

[BIGCHRIS]

. The first was without safety gear and on my way out I was wondering if I or my passenger would live or not. That is a shitty feeling to go though. After that I decided not to take people on high speed passes and to never drive a boat that fast without safety gear.
The ones that have made that mistake (no gear) and are still here are the exception not the rule. I am thankful my wife and myself are still here today.[/QUOTE]
you said a mouthful there,i felt the same way after my accident

[jimsplace]

I was told by lifeline several years ago that jackets that are approved by the racing organizations are acceptable as coast guard approved(even though it does not say it). I do have a question though. Does anyone have opinions about whether to hook up a chute jacket on the river or lake. (not at a racing event with safety crews)? I know the chute won't work that way, but it also won't get tangled in the boat. Opinions and first hand experience welcome.

[Jetboatguru]

. The first was without safety gear and on my way out I was wondering if I or my passenger would live or not. That is a shitty feeling to go though. After that I decided not to take people on high speed passes and to never drive a boat that fast without safety gear.
The ones that have made that mistake (no gear) and are still here are the exception not the rule. I am thankful my wife and myself are still here today.
you said a mouthful there,i felt the same way after my accident
Big Chris in da hizzouse!!
Give me call tomorrow Chris!
707 330-7374

[Dave Sammons]

I will be the first to admit that over the 30 plus years of driving these things, I've made a few high speed river/play passes without the "full gear" on, always had a lifevest though. I will say that as the years have passed a helmet and LifeLine jacket have always been on, when doing any "big speed, run it out the back door" stuff.
I am a lifelong LifeLine fan. I think Bill has always tried to stay on the cutting edge of marine safety and I believe that he and his company have prevented more deaths and major injuries to boat racers than any of us probably want to admit to. Sure you can buy jackets, shorts and restraint systems for less money, Hey that's your call, for me...I'll stay with the time proven industry leader.
One of the things not touched on here about the Chute Jacket is one of it's main jobs, and that is to try and put the driver, in an accident, in the water feet first.
In 1976, I believe a LifeLine Chute Jacket kept my Dad from becoming another statistic. What follows is a sequence of shots of him destoying the UnBlown Fuel Flatbottom, "Benhad" at the Nationals that year. http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/151743Sunday_April_10_2005_12_.jpg
If you look at Pictures 7 and 8, it looks as if he's on his way out free and clear, but here's what the sequence doesn't show...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1517185-BenHad-2of3.jpg http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1517186-BenHad-3of3.jpg
In what really is pictures 8 and 9, he has turned back around in the first shot, on his way to going in backwards, but, as the chute deploys...he gets spun around for a feet first landing(How he had the wherewithall to go into a tuck position, who knows!). He walked away from this thing with a few bruises and sore muscles.
My feeling is, if you're running anywhere close to triple digits...Buy a ChuteJacket, wear a closed face helmet with a restraint system and pull on those Balllistic Shorts!
I know we have an unwritten policy around here about showing crash shots, but I hope you all will take these in the vein in which they were meant. I certainly don't mean to "glamorize" boat crashes in any way. Just trying to further this important discussion.
Dave

[77charger]

I know we have an unwritten policy around here about showing crash shots, but I hope you all will take these in the vein in which they were meant. I certainly don't mean to "glamorize" boat crashes in any way. Just trying to further this important discussion.
Dave
Showing them in this topic is fine IMO I see them as a learning experience i think people can learn from seeing them as in what happens during a sequence.

[flatrookie]

all of you guys are great in your replies and info for all of the tech and just experience through the years that you put on here I have a ? on what triggers the chute to deploy ? and when buying a helmet it should have attachments for harness straps ?

[ColeTR2]

My wake up call was at Needles three years ago when that white Mako hit that roller and came apart right in front of me. I had just got done making passes with no life jacket or helmet. I know dumb, but at the time only a few guys where wearing there lifeline jackets. Ever sense then my jacket and helmet go on! I have not seen anyone running helmet straps on the river? I have to wonder if Nicks injuries could of been prevented by having on helmet straps? Maybe he did? I know safety is always first with Nick and Tony. I'm not being judgmental just trying to learn and make us all safer. All my safety gear is going on before I run period.....

[SERIOUS ISSUES]

The chute has a lanyard that attaches to the boat just like the kill switch. When ejected the chute deploys.
When you buy the neck harnes it comes w/ the pieces to screw into your helmet.

[77charger]

all of you guys are great in your replies and info for all of the tech and just experience through the years that you put on here I have a ? on what triggers the chute to deploy ? and when buying a helmet it should have attachments for harness straps ?
on the top backside of the jacket there is a chute pouch it has a cord that when pulled releases the chute.The other end of that cord is attached to a strong place usually a eye hook on the motor or a solid mount.In the event of a crash and you are tossed from the boat the cord is stuck to the mounting place and when you exit the force pulls the pin on the chute pouch deploying the chute.

[ss396]

i have been involved in outboard hydro racing since the late 60's up and thru the mid 90's as a driver. i also was a lic. river guide in idaho. my dad has kept track of all the lake and river drownings here in the northwest. all of the drowning without exception were because they were not wearing a good pfd. i have taken people out in my sanger v-drive and when i handed one to the person they said do i have to wear it and i said if you get in the jacket will be on or you do not go. i have seen so many FOOLS out there in boats with out any type of pfd on and when an accident happens there is not time to grab any kind of device to float them. after reading the post here i am going to buy me a good cut suit and have my race jacket recirtified. it is security race product. i have used the items for years and trust them. they are based here in the northwest and i feel that they are on the cutting edge as far as water safety. also this winter i am going to invest in cut suit. the old one i had i sold cause it was to small. i know most of us like to open up and make a flyin pass but how many of us think this will not happen to us. and with the age of our flat bottoms both v-drive and jets gettin and the horse power we are getting out of them. is all the more reason to take that little extra $$$$$$$ to save on an even bigger hospital bill or have friends and family putting you 6ft under. we do not need that kind of wake up call. when we go out on the water lets all take that extra second to put on the proper safety equipment on. the advice given here is something that has been because learned thru the school of hard knocks. i do not want to be stat DO YOU?????? i will continue to use safe practices and will learn from others and make adjustments to be even safer.

[flatrookie]

cool thanx guys for all of the replies and tech info :rollside:

[Cheyenne372]

One thing to consider in regards to the helmet restraints is that not all restraints are made for 'Marine" or "Drag Boat Racing" use.
For example, you can buy a "Helmet Restraint" in the Summit catalog for $13 and it connects to the side of your helmet with a "d-ring" and it has a loop that you slip your arm through. That is made for dirt track drivers to help hold their head while making left turns.
I would suggest that you look at the Lifeline website and get the correct restraint for the helmet that you have.
An open-face helmet would have three connecting points on the helmet with 5 straps on the restraint.
A full-face helmet has 4 connecting points with 6 straps on the restraint.
As for the speed that it should be recommended that you have to wear them, that's an easy one! It was recommended by the Class Reps of the SDBA at a meeting last weekend that EVERY VEHICLE in competition, whose driver is not in a safety capsule be required to wear them for 2007! That means from PWC up to 8-second boats.

[MandDPerformance]

What's up with HANS devices? Do we wear them? Can you still wear neck restraints? Might be another device for us all to consider.

[Jetboatguru]

Tony,
the Hans device is designed for use on a body that is strapped in such as Nascar or a capsule boat or Dragster, Funny Car etc. How is Pops doing today?

[Firecracker]

I know I am not a boat driver, but I am a ski racer, and I am thankful everytime I go out that I do wear my head restraints, arm restraints, and neck roll.
I have crashed a couple times where I would've been pretty damn soar if I didn't have that stuff on. Our helmets are a little bit smaller than the ones you guys wear while driving, but they still catch water. I have had pretty soar armpits after a crash from the head restraints pulling on me, but I would rather have soar armpits than risking my helmet coming off, or damaging my neck or spine for that matter becuase the helmet was trying to come off from the force.
I think it is great that this topic was brought up. But I do have to say that the head restraints (depending on what kind you get) can limit your range of motion and vision.
I hope alot of people can learn from this topic, and the wealth of knowledge that has been shared here. Maybe it will change some people's perspective on wearing safety gear while just "screwing around".

[Jetboatguru]

I know I am not a boat driver, but I am a ski racer, and I am thankful everytime I go out that I do wear my head restraints, arm restraints, and neck roll.
I have crashed a couple times where I would've been pretty damn soar if I didn't have that stuff on. Our helmets are a little bit smaller than the ones you guys wear while driving, but they still catch water. I have had pretty soar armpits after a crash from the head restraints pulling on me, but I would rather have soar armpits than risking my helmet coming off, or damaging my neck or spine for that matter becuase the helmet was trying to come off from the force.
I think it is great that this topic was brought up. But I do have to say that the head restraints (depending on what kind you get) can limit your range of motion and vision.
I hope alot of people can learn from this topic, and the wealth of knowledge that has been shared here. Maybe it will change some people's perspective on wearing safety gear while just "screwing around".
LOL ................ sore arm pits. I used to get those from doing too many "arm farts" in grade school......... and high school..................... and college...... Man, I can't believe I still do them.

[Sangster]

Also, remember that while wearing a helmet (with or without a harness) at the lake/river is Great for personal safety... You must exercise extra caution as your usually not the only other boat out on the water... There's a Huge blind spot to the right & left of you, making it nearly impossible to see boats coming up from behind...Jest my 2 cents.......

[Firecracker]

LOL ................ sore arm pits. I used to get those from doing too many "arm farts" in grade school......... and high school..................... and college...... Man, I can't believe I still do them.
LOL, I actually think I just heard you do one! :messedup: You "boys" never really do grow up... :rolleyes:

[DRAGBOAT FAN]

Just an opinion...In an open face helmet application it is also very important to remember that you loose the front harness restraint point and safety feature that you get with the closed face restraint system, so to add the proper safety adjustment to the open face helmet restraint system you need to incorporate a neck collar to give you the limited head back and/or the whiplash effect support safety that comes standard with the front restraint that is included with a closed face helmet.

[ColeTR2]

I have been useing a open face helmet, The thought of being in the water with a enclosure around my head just gives me the creeps. I heard that someone at Ming hit a duck taking off with their head while making a pass. That story and the extra strap is making think twice about a full face helmet.

[77charger]

Speaking of helmets i dont get the open face dea(Only thing i can think is that it offers bettter periphial vis)l.I prefer the full face IMO it offers more protection (In my case i also wear contacts so it provides beetr wind blockage too)
But i aint the person to tell you what to wear that is the drivers choice

[Bobbo541]

leave it to Tony to bring up arm farts in a safety topic :) :)

[REAL HP]

Great topic guys. It seems very drag racer oriented, so here is more food for thought. I have driven numerous runnerbottoms over the years, yes saftey equipment is #1. I wouldnt even think of running one out the back door without a chute jacket and helmet on, that should be STANDARD in these things. How bout trying to focus on why we have crashed them.. and how driving styles can prevent this. How many crashes were due to the use of the lock-out pedal. When that nose keeps lifting it happens FAST. It would be nice to hear why many of us have crashed, and put some att. to fixing a lot of flatbottom driving mistakes that have cost us huge. I think it would help some of the newer drivers out there trying to get a grasp on driving a flat using their head. Shit, you have a guy like Tony Scarlata in here posting away, hands down prob. the best flat driver ever. Maybe he can help share some more. Thanks Rick

[EXTREMEBOATS]

:cry: I been holding back on this topic for some time. The 31st of this month marks my tree year aniversary of not being a "DORK". It was a perfect morning here in Florida and I had the need for speed. I picked up a hydro I built a few years ealier and took it to the river we play on. I keep my 26' SeaRay Sundancer at a local marina, so we towed the hydro there just befor day light. I launched it and drove it around to the entrance of my SeaRay. And at 5am on a Suday morning found out that the local cops were hanging out there. Well, after a bunch of "sweat talk" they let me go. I tied it up next to the big boat until they left. Befor daybreak I left my slip with it in tow. About a hour later I droped anchor and as the sun broke the horizon I fired the hydro up. It was the local drag strip that many times befor "WE" and others had used for tuning and thrills. No jacket, or lanyard I was off on a 110 mph pass.... Little did I know a Manatee was crossing my path. Unaware of what was under me, I went for the N2o for a bit more thrill. About a 1000' into my run the boat turned left. Like you picked up the ass and amied me toward a 12' channel marker.
I turned to the right and braced for impact. When I surfaced the boat was behind me about 150' but right side up. My left arm was snaped above my rist, left ankle was broken and two inches of my heal had been peeled off. I still see the pole tearing into the left sponson as I left the boat. Some how I made it back to the boat and to my surprise drove it back to my SeaRay. After tying it off I relized how messed up I was. My "CONFIDENCE" in my history had caught up with me. Six months later the boat was fixed and I thought I was healed. WRONG... I deal with my "CONFIDENCE" every day. Use your gift...
Safety equipment has a place in our need for speed.
Mike

[Dave Sammons]

Speaking of helmets i dont get the open face dea(Only thing i can think is that it offers bettter periphial vis)l.I prefer the full face IMO it offers more protection (In my case i also wear contacts so it provides beetr wind blockage too)
But i aint the person to tell you what to wear that is the drivers choice
I agree, it is the "driver's" choice. But, in 1984, at least here in SOCAL, the APBA mandated a full face helmet for our events. Seems like that restriction has been lifted, as I see people now wearing open faces. I made the switch then, and except for a rare occasion, have never gone back. The main knock against a full face has always been:
Weight
Extra chance of "bucketing"
No access to the mouth for water ingestion issues
Risk of injury to the neck, back, etc.. when removing the helmet in an emergency situation
Some loss of side vision
I believe with the restraint systems now required, the weight, bucketing and even the vision issue have been negated versus the open face. I'll take the chance on the other 2 deals if I can protect even my "ugly" mug from smacking my boat, another boat, a timing light(it's happened!), or even the water at high speed. Plus, I believe that being in the closed environment helps remove the sensation of speed(wind, noise and water) which aids in concentration, decisionmaking and, at the end of the day, SAFTEY!. For me, especially Drag Racing, where split second consistency is the key, when that visor comes down, it's me, the boat and the lights. And when circle racing all of that gets magnified over 5 miles! If you've never had a couple face fulls of saltwater in the course of a heat...trust me...the concentration does get broken.
Just my opinion... :cool: :cool:

[Jetboatguru]

I agree, it is the "driver's" choice. But, in 1984, at least here in SOCAL, the APBA mandated a full face helmet for our events. Seems like that restriction has been lifted, as I see people now wearing open faces. I made the switch then, and except for a rare occasion, have never gone back. The main knock against a full face has always been:
Weight
Extra chance of "bucketing"
No access to the mouth for water ingestion issues
Risk of injury to the neck, back, etc.. when removing the helmet in an emergency situation
Some loss of side vision
I believe with the restraint systems now required, the weight, bucketing and even the vision issue have been negated versus the open face. I'll take the chance on the other 2 deals if I can protect even my "ugly" mug from smacking my boat, another boat, a timing light(it's happened!), or even the water at high speed. Plus, I believe that being in the closed environment helps remove the sensation of speed(wind, noise and water) which aids in concentration, decisionmaking and, at the end of the day, SAFTEY!. For me, especially Drag Racing, where split second consistency is the key, when that visor comes down, it's me, the boat and the lights. And when circle racing all of that gets magnified over 5 miles! If you've never had a couple face fulls of saltwater in the course of a heat...trust me...the concentration does get broken.
Just my opinion... :cool: :cool:
Dave you bring up a lot of great points about the two styles of helmets. Up until about 3 years ago I was in total favor of the open face helmet and for all the reasons that you mentioned. In 1998 I saw Jim Bandelin crash a Pro Gas Flat in Bakersfield. When they got him to the shore they went to take his helmet off of him. He was conscious and alert. The paramedics struggled like hell to get his helmet off but couldn't. Even when they went to cut it off he had the strap so tight that they couldn't even slide the scissors under the strap to cut it. Now, if he would have been unconscious and drowned this would have been a huge problem especially if he had a neck or spine injury. From that point I was against full face helmets. After a few years I started wearing a full face and getting used to it and last year while driving a Super Stock testing, I crashed and the boat slammed down on me and the wheel hit my helmet right where my face is. Had I been wearing the open face helmet I probably would have broken my jaw.
I crashed a total of 3 times that year and each time i was glad to be wearing a full face helmet. It is a little daunting when you are floating trying to gain your senses after you crash because the helmet makes it difficult to grab fresh air. I think the open helmet is more of a risk for bucketing water because of the opening in front. Crashing is something that nobody likes to think about but it is very real and the odds are greater in racing since we are pushing the envelope on each pass and each heat in the circles.
Real HP brings up a very important question of why we crash. It is no secret that a flatbottom crash is caused by driver error 99% of the time unless it is a part failure. In my opinion one of the major causes is the "I'm trailing badly so I need to free it up and catch up" scenario. I have been a victim to this more than once and I swear everytime that if it happens again, I won't fall into it. If you are in a drag race and you can see the other guy ahead of you, you are so far behind that it won't make a difference what you do. So the best thiong to do is just try run a clean pass and let the chips fall where they may. If you get antsy and try to hang her up there and pull some miracle out of your ass you may get in a bad position. Maybe the reason the guy is so far out on you is he red lit! Now you are chasing somebody down that is already beaten and you crash trying to catch them. If at all po$$ible invest in a set of radios so your crew chief can let you know that the race is over. The Faulkerson brothers at NJBA use radios and they are pretty good with them.
Another reason I see people crash in dragboats is the way they set the boats. Most if not all of the drivers bring the boats out fairly tight and they roll them over and set them in. Then they let the nose come up while the boat is under its heaviest accleration. To me this is unsafe and backwards.(Just my opinion) but if the boat is accelerating hard it wants to go over backwards and by allowing the nose to come up while this happening, you are compounding an already unsafe situation. Also, when you stick a boat in hard hte water is grabbing the bottom and it is difficult to gradually free up a stuck boat. It will want to spring on you all of sudden and this happens in a hurry. I can't say that my style is the right style but I feel it is the safest for me. I try to set the boat with the bow up and bring it down as it is accelerating so it is force on force. I try not to let the boat glue in and spring up on me. There are only a few guys I have seen that do this the same way and if you watch them they make it look so easy and safe. Jeff Martin, Brian Pinckney and Ryan Heiser are the best guys to watch and learn from because of how they bring the boat out. In the circle races, guys like Ty Newton, Dave Bryant and Jeff Brochheuser are best of the best and I know they are always willing to help out and answer questions especially when it involves safety.

[VDRIVERACING]

I think all of us should be aware of what helmet is the "right" one. A motorcycle helmet is not a racing helmet.
Snell Memorial Foundation Ratings establish standards for different types of helmets. If you race, get a helmet that is Snell SA2005 rated.
A few of the important characteristics of an SA helmet vs. a motorcycle helmet:
Large object impact resistance. The SA helmet must pass tests that prove its ability to withstand impacts from objects while minimizing gforce transfer to the head and providing object penetration resistance.
Flame resistance. Yeah, I know. You're in water. But nylon liners in motorcycle helmets melt in fire. You're already ugly enough.
Face shield. An SA helmet shield has been tested to withstand impact penetration and is fire resistant. It also has a positive closure catch to prevent it from opening in a crash.
Removeability. The SA helmet is designed so it can be easily removed from an injured driver without causing further injury. Mmmm, yeah, that's important.
Take the time to read up on this stuff. A good helmet will save your life. A couple of months ago Champ Car driver Cristiano DaMatta hit a deer at Road America while going 165 MPH. Cris was in a coma for weeks, but now is making phenomenal progress from the serious brain injury he received. Without the best helmet standards protecting him, he would be dead.
Snell SA2005 Standards (http://www.smf.org/standards/2005/sak2005/sa_k2005_final.html)
Some very good info here! One should note that a SA is not a open cockpit boat helmet either, rather for automotive and kart racing. Unlike SA models, M2005 helmets ARE reccomended by Snell for open cockpit boats. Impact specs are identical for SA and M, the key difference being range of vision, and flame retardence for automotive uses. The flame specs take into account the closed environment of a car. Furthermore, SA flame specs are not required for Karts, because of the open cockpit (kinda reminds one of a boat).
With the engagement of helmet restrainst and neck role, it's difficult to see to the side, so as it is. Having a narrow eyeport (typical SA) works fine for autos and capsule boats, is a safety handicap for open cockpit circle racers.
Bottom line, ask a lot of questions, and perhaps more importantly, the right questions. For example, the right gear for a capsule drag boat, may not be the best choice for an open circle boat, or unicyle for that matter. Oh, and be carefule of guys like me who have too much time on their hands to offer opinions....

[77charger]

Real HP brings up a very important question of why we crash. It is no secret that a flatbottom crash is caused by driver error 99% of the time unless it is a part failure. In my opinion one of the major causes is the "I'm trailing badly so I need to free it up and catch up" scenario. I have been a victim to this more than once and I swear everytime that if it happens again, I won't fall into it. If you are in a drag race and you can see the other guy ahead of you, you are so far behind that it won't make a difference what you do. So the best thiong to do is just try run a clean pass and let the chips fall where they may. If you get antsy and try to hang her up there and pull some miracle out of your ass you may get in a bad position. Maybe the reason the guy is so far out on you is he red lit! Now you are chasing somebody down that is already beaten and you crash trying to catch them. If at all po$$ible invest in a set of radios so your crew chief can let you know that the race is over. The Faulkerson brothers at NJBA use radios and they are pretty good with them.
Another reason I see people crash in dragboats is the way they set the boats. Most if not all of the drivers bring the boats out fairly tight and they roll them over and set them in. Then they let the nose come up while the boat is under its heaviest accleration. To me this is unsafe and backwards.(Just my opinion) but if the boat is accelerating hard it wants to go over backwards and by allowing the nose to come up while this happening, you are compounding an already unsafe situation. Also, when you stick a boat in hard hte water is grabbing the bottom and it is difficult to gradually free up a stuck boat. It will want to spring on you all of sudden and this happens in a hurry. I can't say that my style is the right style but I feel it is the safest for me. I try to set the boat with the bow up and bring it down as it is accelerating so it is force on force. I try not to let the boat glue in and spring up on me. There are only a few guys I have seen that do this the same way and if you watch them they make it look so easy and safe. Jeff Martin, Brian Pinckney and Ryan Heiser are the best guys to watch and learn from because of how they bring the boat out. In the circle races, guys like Ty Newton, Dave Bryant and Jeff Brochheuser are best of the best and I know they are always willing to help out and answer questions especially when it involves safety.
Tony i can agree on ths side by side thingy it almost got me at red bluff.after that it is run my own race and concentrate straight ahead dont worry about the guy next to you (I do like the tape the visor idea but i havent done it yet)
By watching the guy next to you you are thinking how can i pull and freeing the boat is the way to catch up but you aint watching the bow or ahead of you before you know it it feels tooooo liiiggghhhhttt.
Yup you guys make the launch look so smooth some of the best leaves i have seen are by you someday i hope i can do the same but for now its pedal to the wood.
The way i leave you are right the boat can come up very fast i now have a feel for it and i know i cant come off the down too fast or it will bite me but there is a point where i know i have past go and can free up at that moment.
I also appreciate yor help and evaluations after a run with my boat i have learned alot and it does help to have the best people out there Without honest comments you cant advance to the next level you guys are straight foward.You definitely do find time to help out when it comes to safety and show some concern if it is needed.
Thanks once again

[DUCKY]

Also, remember that while wearing a helmet (with or without a harness) at the lake/river is Great for personal safety... You must exercise extra caution as your usually not the only other boat out on the water... There's a Huge blind spot to the right & left of you, making it nearly impossible to see boats coming up from behind...Jest my 2 cents.......
Wearing a helmet in a boat without the proper helmet restraint is a good way to end up dead or really badly messed up. What do you think that helmet and chin strap are going to do you your head and neck when the helmet becomes a bucket. I have always worn my jacket if I was going to go fast, but I won't even look at the helmet unless I have my restraint. Most people don't understand the difference between the restraints used in auto racing and boat racing. In auto racing, the devices (like the HANS, etc...) are meant to prevent a hyperextension or hyperflexion of the neck, caused by a sudden stop, and amplified by the weight of the helmet on your head. A boat racing restraint is meant to physically keep your head attached to your neck when the helmet fills up with water and trys to rip it off....

[Dave Sammons]

Real HP brings up a very important question of why we crash. It is no secret that a flatbottom crash is caused by driver error 99% of the time unless it is a part failure. In my opinion one of the major causes is the "I'm trailing badly so I need to free it up and catch up" scenario. I have been a victim to this more than once and I swear everytime that if it happens again, I won't fall into it. If you are in a drag race and you can see the other guy ahead of you, you are so far behind that it won't make a difference what you do. So the best thiong to do is just try run a clean pass and let the chips fall where they may. If you get antsy and try to hang her up there and pull some miracle out of your ass you may get in a bad position. Maybe the reason the guy is so far out on you is he red lit! Now you are chasing somebody down that is already beaten and you crash trying to catch them. If at all po$$ible invest in a set of radios so your crew chief can let you know that the race is over. The Faulkerson brothers at NJBA use radios and they are pretty good with them.
Another reason I see people crash in dragboats is the way they set the boats. Most if not all of the drivers bring the boats out fairly tight and they roll them over and set them in. Then they let the nose come up while the boat is under its heaviest accleration. To me this is unsafe and backwards.(Just my opinion) but if the boat is accelerating hard it wants to go over backwards and by allowing the nose to come up while this happening, you are compounding an already unsafe situation. Also, when you stick a boat in hard hte water is grabbing the bottom and it is difficult to gradually free up a stuck boat. It will want to spring on you all of sudden and this happens in a hurry. I can't say that my style is the right style but I feel it is the safest for me. I try to set the boat with the bow up and bring it down as it is accelerating so it is force on force. I try not to let the boat glue in and spring up on me. There are only a few guys I have seen that do this the same way and if you watch them they make it look so easy and safe. Jeff Martin, Brian Pinckney and Ryan Heiser are the best guys to watch and learn from because of how they bring the boat out. In the circle races, guys like Ty Newton, Dave Bryant and Jeff Brochheuser are best of the best and I know they are always willing to help out and answer questions especially when it involves safety.
I agree 100% with your 99%(Does that make sense :confused: ), especially in terms of runnerbottom/dragboat crashes.
To your second point first. I have watched you make MANY passes down the liquid quarter mile, both from the beach and the hold rope(Can't remember us EVER pairing off...Although Martin was 0 for 5 against me, over the years, in the 8.00 class :DBut, BOY, did that 470 run! ) and everytime you left, I'd marvel at your ability to launch the boat off the line and catch it the way you do. There is NO DOUBT that is absolutely, when done right, the quickest way to launch a boat from these "new fangled" countdown clock starts. Especially in the PRO classes, where every overall hundreth counts! But you gotta figure most of the guys on this forum are either running at a lake/river for fun and not setting the boat from a dead stop or they may attend a couple of sanctioned events per year...maybe. That not sayin', from what I have seen at the races, more than a few of the fellas could use a little talkin' to, about leave the starting line safely. With that being said, no matter if your leaving from a dead stop or up on top of the water under power,(like we used to do in the "olden" days) the style I use, like my heros growing up, Dice, Jones, and Bush still works pretty well. It goes like this.... (Remember, just as with Tony's way it takes alot of practice to pull this off right)Give the boat as much downpedal as it takes from keeping the boat to launch the nose not much past the level at which it will ride when set, BEFORE the hit of the throttle. At the hit of the throttle, let the nose get to that point. Now start letting out the downpedal SLOWLY and SMOOTHLY as the boat accelerates and the horsepower drives the nose over. (Now remember "slowly" is a bit of a misnomer, in a 10.00 boat, this whole action, from hit of the throttle to set, will probably be less than a second and a half) If the boat is set up properly, she'll just rock back and be gone. To Tony's point, the mistake is made when you "SNAP" the pedal back early, because the boat gets way upset, heads for the sky and you have to settle it back down and it just gets ugly from there. You will "burn" the prop a little harder this way, but, you will never "overpack" the boat down course, which can lead to other issues and since most of you guys will be running in the bracket classes you will become VERY consistant on the lights and be able to tune your setup to your number. A 10.01 and a .111 light will win you alot of rounds in that bracket. ANY way you choose to set and drive a boat takes practice and concentration!
Now back to the first point...MAN! We've all been there trying to play the catch up game. And to Tony's point, when somebodys got a boat length on us at half track, we all start playing "up pedal catchup". I believe most all accidents from half track on, are a direct result of the up pedal. Partly due to scenario stated above and mostly due to the drivers inabilty to react to the rising set of the boat because his foot is on the up pedal. Sometimes the time it takes to react back to the downpedal, whether the foot is on the up to pick up ET or it's there because the up pedal is being used as a "stop" to keep the plates from sucking down...it's sometimes TOO LATE, and that's if your foot doesn't get caught in between them. Here's my opinion, and you can label me, the most UNMACHO guy here on the boards, but... CONSISTENCY WINS RACES. Take the up pedals out, put a down pedal in that actually fits the width of a shoe, increase spring pressure and tune your boat to run the number, if you're at a sanctioned race. If you're on the lake or especially a river, with all that unsettled water, leave your foot resting on the down! Until the day Associations ban up pedals due to accidents and rising insurance rates, if you absolutely have to have an up pedal in your boat, so your "buddies" don't label you a wussy, do like I did in my 8.00 Canyon, roll the up pedal back even with the down and use it as a stop. With the pedals like this you can easily pivot your foot from one pedal to the other in a relativley quick manner and you can tell your pals you were on the "up" the whole pass!
I think this thread is really great to discuss all this, and I hope there is much more dialog on this important topic.

[river redy]

This is a great topic especially for me who owns a runner bottom and not to much seat time since i have been restoring the whole thing so i know whats in it.Im all about safety since my wife shits herself when i drive it, also took out my up pedal but I CANT WAIT TO SEE A COUPLE OF YOU GUYS MAYBE TO TAKE MY BOAT OUT AND HELP MESET IT UP CORRECT SO I DONT INJURE MYSELF!!!! the most important thing i want to do is make sure it sets safely and know how to set it, with all the talent on these boards this should be easy right TONY hopefully it will be out of prime by Irvine, alls I want is to be safe and have a good time and to come home in one piece me and my boat, does anybody have any comment on the characteristics of a 1992 kurtis runner bottom 17'10" be nice thanks

[Jetboatguru]

This is a great topic especially for me who owns a runner bottom and not to much seat time since i have been restoring the whole thing so i know whats in it.Im all about safety since my wife shits herself when i drive it, also took out my up pedal but I CANT WAIT TO SEE A COUPLE OF YOU GUYS MAYBE TO TAKE MY BOAT OUT AND HELP MESET IT UP CORRECT SO I DONT INJURE MYSELF!!!! the most important thing i want to do is make sure it sets safely and know how to set it, with all the talent on these boards this should be easy right TONY hopefully it will be out of prime by Irvine, alls I want is to be safe and have a good time and to come home in one piece me and my boat, does anybody have any comment on the characteristics of a 1992 kurtis runner bottom 17'10" be nice thanks
There will be plenty of us to help you set that Kurtis up. I have driven one light weight Kurtis that ran in the 8.50 range and it rode like any other good runnerbottom. There is a lot to think about, prop, prop location, plate settings, gears, horsepower and of course the driver. Like Dave said, taking out the up pedal is a great thing to do. I havent had an up pdeal in a dragboat ever! Spring pressure should be enough to hold the plates from sucking down. I set the plates to where I can't get all the way off the down. This way I am driving it the whole way down the track. Not something I would suggest to a new driver but maybe later in the game. Seat time is crucial. Make pass after pass after pass and learn the characteristics of your boat and different water. One other huge point to make is your steering. make sure your steering is tight tight! I mean so it cant turn if you take your hands off the wheel at 30 mph. Loose steering will make a boat very ill handling. Gotta go watch UFC.

[Monkey Bung]

Dave you bring up a lot of great points about the two styles of helmets. Up until about 3 years ago I was in total favor of the open face helmet and for all the reasons that you mentioned. In 1998 I saw Jim Bandelin crash a Pro Gas Flat in Bakersfield. When they got him to the shore they went to take his helmet off of him. He was conscious and alert. The paramedics struggled like hell to get his helmet off but couldn't. Even when they went to cut it off he had the strap so tight that they couldn't even slide the scissors under the strap to cut it. Now, if he would have been unconscious and drowned this would have been a huge problem especially if he had a neck or spine injury. From that point I was against full face helmets. After a few years I started wearing a full face and getting used to it and last year while driving a Super Stock testing, I crashed and the boat slammed down on me and the wheel hit my helmet right where my face is. Had I been wearing the open face helmet I probably would have broken my jaw.
I crashed a total of 3 times that year and each time i was glad to be wearing a full face helmet. It is a little daunting when you are floating trying to gain your senses after you crash because the helmet makes it difficult to grab fresh air. I think the open helmet is more of a risk for bucketing water because of the opening in front. Crashing is something that nobody likes to think about but it is very real and the odds are greater in racing since we are pushing the envelope on each pass and each heat in the circles.
Real HP brings up a very important question of why we crash. It is no secret that a flatbottom crash is caused by driver error 99% of the time unless it is a part failure. In my opinion one of the major causes is the "I'm trailing badly so I need to free it up and catch up" scenario. I have been a victim to this more than once and I swear everytime that if it happens again, I won't fall into it. If you are in a drag race and you can see the other guy ahead of you, you are so far behind that it won't make a difference what you do. So the best thiong to do is just try run a clean pass and let the chips fall where they may. If you get antsy and try to hang her up there and pull some miracle out of your ass you may get in a bad position. Maybe the reason the guy is so far out on you is he red lit! Now you are chasing somebody down that is already beaten and you crash trying to catch them. If at all po$$ible invest in a set of radios so your crew chief can let you know that the race is over. The Faulkerson brothers at NJBA use radios and they are pretty good with them.
Another reason I see people crash in dragboats is the way they set the boats. Most if not all of the drivers bring the boats out fairly tight and they roll them over and set them in. Then they let the nose come up while the boat is under its heaviest accleration. To me this is unsafe and backwards.(Just my opinion) but if the boat is accelerating hard it wants to go over backwards and by allowing the nose to come up while this happening, you are compounding an already unsafe situation. Also, when you stick a boat in hard hte water is grabbing the bottom and it is difficult to gradually free up a stuck boat. It will want to spring on you all of sudden and this happens in a hurry. I can't say that my style is the right style but I feel it is the safest for me. I try to set the boat with the bow up and bring it down as it is accelerating so it is force on force. I try not to let the boat glue in and spring up on me. There are only a few guys I have seen that do this the same way and if you watch them they make it look so easy and safe. Jeff Martin, Brian Pinckney and Ryan Heiser are the best guys to watch and learn from because of how they bring the boat out. In the circle races, guys like Ty Newton, Dave Bryant and Jeff Brochheuser are best of the best and I know they are always willing to help out and answer questions especially when it involves safety.
Tony,
You make a great point here. Last race at Bakersfeild Shelfo brought up a good point about open face helmets that I never considered. Jimmy was wearing his full face and told Shelfo next round he was going to wear his open face due to vision and not being so claustrofobic. Joe told us that he saw two times where a guys with open face helmets came out of the boat and smacked there faces on the deck!!! I guess and toatly F@%CKED themselfs up!! One more thing to consider.
Mark

[Dave Sammons]

Following up on the ill handling boat issue...Besides what I call "rudder flutter" due to loose cables, as Tony described...Make sure you check, everytime you go out, the arm on your transom bar that hooks to the rod that runs to your pedals. You would not BELIEVE how many top notch teams from around the country, in both circles and drags, have chased a boat that suddenly does not handle and changed any number things and overlooked this critical part. When you figure that you're bending all that aluminum, in most cases, with an arm that pivots off a 3/16 woodruff key about 3/4' long, plus the clamping power of a single 5/16 bolt. Guess what?...It will loosen up or roll the key over and you are going to lose both travel and static postion in your plates, in other words, at speed, the plates are going to be moving at will and your ride will not be consistant. If I drive somebodys boat this, steering and the throttle assy are the first things I check. A quick fix is to step up to a 1/4 key and keyway and if you are racing or run hard quite often, get rid of the stainless bolt and put a fine thread grade 8 bolt through the arm. If you want the BEST fix...Bergeron is now making a split collar style arm that has superior clamping capabilities versus the single bolt style.
Since I mentioned steering and throttle assemblies above, thought maybe I could go into that as well.(heck, the Charger game doesn't start for 45minutes! :D ) I always figured the 2 things I couldn't control at speed are steering and a stuck throttle.
Couple thoughts on steering...You would be amazed at some of the things I've seen when pulling boats apart for restoration or updates. I would assume most people would have the sense to keep the wheel tight to the shaft. As far as the steering shaft, I prefer to have a rollpin go all the way through the gear and the shaft, tighten the set scews just for extra clamping. Make sure there is a saftey collar(or 2) that prevents the shaft from pulling out. I usually put one behind the bearing and one behind the dash. Cables...along with keeping them tight, if you are running an inside stringer system and are running a turnbuckle...check the end that hooks to the chain. I've replaced a number of them that due to corrosion verses the steel chain that the rod end has become oblong and dangerously thin. Check the masterlink in the chain as well for corrosion...either one of those goes and you are off for a wild ride. When the turnbuckle is in place...use doubled up saftey wire to thread continuously through the cables, through the center hole on the turnbuckle and back to the second or third link of the chain. Could be just enough from sending you on that wild ride! On the cable clamps...check to make sure the nut side of the clamp is on the outside. You don't want them hitting each other on boats with the smallet steering gear. On boats with outside stringer steering...check regularly all the bolts that hold the pulleys and don't forget to check the locknut on the tensioning bolt, if that backs off...OH BOY! Back at the rudder...If there's room I always use 2 STEEL split collars. One above the bearing and if room below the quadrant, if not above the quadrant. Not a big fan of the aluminium collars. I know they're heavier and you can't anodize them, so, chrome'um, hey for that little bit of extra weight...your call!(I won't run aluminum split collars on the propshaft either, but that's just me) :D On the rudder itself, have it checked regularly for cracks. I prefer to use a quadrant that not only utilizes a key, but, is clearanced for the clamp bolt as well. Don't worry about a stainless bolt here either...Use a fine thread grade 8. Like I said I'm a bit paranoid when it comes to steering!!
On the throttle assembly...Hard to believe that throttle stops aren't on every boat that spends a fair amount of time at WOT! Think about slammin your foot down and pressing about as hard as you can, on that tiny cable and hardware in both the footpedal and carb/injector linkage, to either help hold yourself in or trying to drive around a guy. Lots of serious injuries and worse have happed because of stuck throttles! So build yourself a throttle stop on the back of your pedal. A simple one consists usually of a piece of angle bolted to the backside of the pedal mount and some sort of bolt to hit the pedal when you mash on it. Cut it to look nice and polish it and the bolt and it won't look too bad. Back at the motor...always ziptie the cable mount in the closed position(most associations mandate this) and check your linkage geometery once and a while, as well as all the nuts and bolts that hold it together. I had a guy helping set the butterflies on a birdcatcher once and, (my bad, I didn't check it) he forgot to tighten the locknut on one of the thumbscrews that adjust them, and guess what happened when I got out of the throttle at 130mph...the screw vibrated down during the run and held the throttle open aways, after kicking the heel of the pedal, I ripped at the kill switch with the end of Lake ming coming at me and JUST made the turn! So stay on top of this stuff and I can gaurantee you may save yourself some problems at some point!
GO CHARGERS!!!!! I have a hunch it's going to be a LOOONG day for the Niners! :crossx: :crossx:

[Monkey Bung]

And my Raiders.

[wsuwrhr]

Mr Sammons,
Right click, print.
From a Non-driving-yet V-driver I appreciate your tips and I assure you they will be put to good use.
thanks,
Brian
So stay on top of this stuff and I can gaurantee you may save yourself some problems at some point!

[river redy]

To Dave and Tony thank you for the info, this is things that are not in magazines, but from people that have been there and done we apreciate these tips

[WILDERTHANU]

[QUOTE=Dave Sammons]Give the boat as much downpedal as it takes from keeping the boat to launch the nose not much past the level at which it will ride when set, BEFORE the hit of the throttle. At the hit of the throttle, let the nose get to that point. Now start letting out the downpedal SLOWLY and SMOOTHLY as the boat accelerates and the horsepower drives the nose over. (Now remember "slowly" is a bit of a misnomer, in a 10.00 boat, this whole action, from hit of the throttle to set, will probably be less than a second and a half) If the boat is set up properly, she'll just rock back and be gone. To Tony's point, the mistake is made when you "SNAP" the pedal back early, because the boat gets way upset, heads for the sky and you have to settle it back down and it just gets ugly from there. You will "burn" the prop a little harder this way, but, you will never "overpack" the boat down course, which can lead to other issues and since most of you guys will be running in the bracket classes you will become VERY consistant on the lights and be able to tune your setup to your number. A 10.01 and a .111 light will win you alot of rounds in that bracket. ANY way you choose to set and drive a boat takes practice and concentration!
QUOTE]
I'll be honest I lauch my boat this way.. and to me bringing it out tight has always seemed the safe way.. but my boat still takes a nasty if not two huge hops before it will lay over?? It feels way sketchy to me.. I know I'm doing something wrong. Puss factor maybe.

[Fiat48]

If there was not some finese to it then everyone could simply read the instructions and set a flat like Tony does. The art is reading the boat...many times by your ass more than your eyes. Its a matter of timing the pedal with the movement of the boat.
No..I cant set a boat like Tony. I usually get a hop...sometimes two. But it sure is good to see those sharing their art of driving and what works for them.

[Dave Sammons]

I'll be honest I lauch my boat this way.. and to me bringing it out tight has always seemed the safe way.. but my boat still takes a nasty if not two huge hops before it will lay over?? It feels way sketchy to me.. I know I'm doing something wrong. Puss factor maybe.
PUSS FACTOR!! I think not...I not trying to come off like the "all-knowing rigger/driver of all things with a v-drive" on this thread, because there are certainly folks around here that have been doing it as long and in alot of respects better than I have, but I have always had a keen interest in making boats run/ride/work better and enjoy the heck out of seeing guys make clean safe passes, so if I'm coming off as a knowitalla-hole here let me know!!!
Here are my thoughts on your post/issue.
I'll asume a few things...It's a runnerbottom, it runs near or over 100, and you are pleased with the attitude once the boat takes a set and you have significant seat time in it.
Mechanically here's what I would check...Check to see how much the travel is at the back of the plate when you depress the pedal to it's furthest position. It's quite possible that you may have less than an inch of total travel. If this is the case...it is not enough to launch the boat from a dead idle. Try a couple things to improve the travel and shoot for somewhere near 1 3/4's inch of travel. First try and roll the pedal as far back to you as you feel comfortable with the bend in your left leg. You will need to shorten the intermediate rod between the overide handle and the pedal assy. It's probably a turnbuckle or possibly a piece of 1/2 stainless with 2 rod ends. If that doesn't get you there, leave the overide handle in the full forward position, release the rod end from the transom bar arm and try to extend the cav rod out of each rodend, front and back, leaving a safe amount of threads in each of the rod ends. The goal is to position the eyebolts as close to 1o'clock as possible. This angle is considered the most efficient angle for the eyebolts to maximize travel. You will have to reset your plates after this and hopefully you will have enough threads in the turnbuckles to accomplish this safely. If your eyebolt angle is already correct, longer eyebolts may be in order. Again, if you buy new eyebolts(2'' would be ideal), check to see if your turnbuckles will fit with the new lengths. Also alot of boats have the seats mounted right on the stringers. Try putting a pair of 4x4s under your seat and see how much better the angle is when you push on the downpedal. Take a look at the last picture posted of Sunny Jones in "MY Boat" on the liquid quartermile thread. He is probably near a foot off the stringer! This is the ULTIMATE angle for travel and quickness on the downpedal. Most river boats are not going to raise a seat that high, but, try and come in somewhere in between! And if NONE of that gets you there, there's a good chance your transom bar arm may be too long from the center of the transom bar to the center of the rod end. Most are around 5 1/2", get one around 4 1/2", remember, it's all about geometery!
It's quite possble that all you have to do is leave your foot in the down a little longer and let the horsepower roll the nose over and come off the down as smoooth as you can. Remember..."The Down Pedal is your Friend!" :D :D

[river redy]

Mike Collins is putting my boat back together at Prime I hope he reads this, some good info here!!!!!!!!

[WILDERTHANU]

PUSS FACTOR!! I think not...I not trying to come off like the "all-knowing rigger/driver of all things with a v-drive" on this thread, because there are certainly folks around here that have been doing it as long and in alot of respects better than I have, but I have always had a keen interest in making boats run/ride/work better and enjoy the heck out of seeing guys make clean safe passes, so if I'm coming off as a knowitalla-hole here let me know!!!
Here are my thoughts on your post/issue.
I'll asume a few things...It's a runnerbottom, it runs near or over 100, and you are pleased with the attitude once the boat takes a set and you have significant seat time in it.
Mechanically here's what I would check...Check to see how much the travel is at the back of the plate when you depress the pedal to it's furthest position. It's quite possible that you may have less than an inch of total travel. If this is the case...it is not enough to launch the boat from a dead idle. Try a couple things to improve the travel and shoot for somewhere near 1 3/4's inch of travel. First try and roll the pedal as far back to you as you feel comfortable with the bend in your left leg. You will need to shorten the intermediate rod between the overide handle and the pedal assy. It's probably a turnbuckle or possibly a piece of 1/2 stainless with 2 rod ends. If that doesn't get you there, leave the overide handle in the full forward position, release the rod end from the transom bar arm and try to extend the cav rod out of each rodend, front and back, leaving a safe amount of threads in each of the rod ends. The goal is to position the eyebolts as close to 1o'clock as possible. This angle is considered the most efficient angle for the eyebolts to maximize travel. You will have to reset your plates after this and hopefully you will have enough threads in the turnbuckles to accomplish this safely. If your eyebolt angle is already correct, longer eyebolts may be in order. Again, if you buy new eyebolts(2'' would be ideal), check to see if your turnbuckles will fit with the new lengths. Also alot of boats have the seats mounted right on the stringers. Try putting a pair of 4x4s under your seat and see how much better the angle is when you push on the downpedal. Take a look at the last picture posted of Sunny Jones in "MY Boat" on the liquid quartermile thread. He is probably near a foot off the stringer! This is the ULTIMATE angle for travel and quickness on the downpedal. Most river boats are not going to raise a seat that high, but, try and come in somewhere in between! And if NONE of that gets you there, there's a good chance your transom bar arm may be too long from the center of the transom bar to the center of the rod end. Most are around 5 1/2", get one around 4 1/2", remember, it's all about geometery!
It's quite possble that all you have to do is leave your foot in the down a little longer and let the horsepower roll the nose over and come off the down as smoooth as you can. Remember..."The Down Pedal is your Friend!" :D :D
Dave u spend the time to share some great info, thank you!! I "THINK" we've narrowed the problem down to not burning the prop hard enough out of the hole. It's pretty much MY driver inexperience, and no established method of setting it consistently. We'll be testing it in a couple weeks again.. so we'll see.

[Jetboatguru]

Bung, the helmet thing is a no brainer. The full face is the way to go in my opinion. But lots of people would create opposing arguments. Shelfo is smart MFer and knows his business.
The info that Sammons has posted in here is priceless and we are fortunate to have somebody with his vast knowledge passing it on to all of us. The little things he mentions such as roll pins in the steering and rolled keys are things that can get somebody hurt or even killed. My hats off to you Dave. We all have the macho thing going on and the "I know what I am doing" thing, but I have learned a ton from this thread.

[Fired Up]

Good "seat of the boat" experience and knowledge on this thread from all contributing. I have a few questions about taking out the "up" pedal on a two pedal assembly. Not having dismantled one, will this not affect the remaining pedal or are they independent of one another? Second, spring tension. Is this an exact science? Can I buy springs of the same type from my local hardware store that sells what look to be the same? Are there specific spring ratings for the necessary pedal resistance? Mine have been in the boat since I had it and I know the guy who owned it before didn't do much if any maintenance so I'd say they are good 8-10 years old. They are under constant tension even as we speak sitting in the boat. Valve springs get weak with time, wouldn't these? Replacement would be easy since I need to disassemble my pedal assembly anyways to replace a leaking seal at the transom. I know response to this may not be till next week while everyone is headed to the races today in Bakersfield.

[ColeTR2]

I try to set the boat with the bow up and bring it down as it is accelerating so it is force on force. I try not to let the boat glue in and spring up on me.
Tony, Standard runner bottom say 700hp how much down when you start / floor it? Typically in the first few tens of a seconds do you add more down peddle or dose it very?

[Fiat48]

Remove the pedal assembly from the boat. Allen screws hold the two halves together. I think if I remember right you have to take the gear off the pedal (woodruff key) and then you can remove the up pedal. Plug the holes or make a small shaft to go in the place of the up pedal.
You will see what you have to do when you get in there.
Car hood springs (old cars) work if you want stronger springs and cannot find what you need. Strongest spring setup that you can push and control if you are racing. To keep that plate from sucking down.
Also I think there is an air setup. Tony would know about that deal.

[77charger]

On my flat the up pedal has been cut off

[Fired Up]

I've heard about the pneumatic plate set-up at the races. Haven't seen it though. From the drivers I've spoken to the "feel" of the plate would be different taking away the "feel" of the boat. Didn't seem appealing, although it may be easier to push down.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

:p :220v:

[Cole Man II]

A wide down peddle with the up peddle cut off. As Fiat48 said you must leave the shaft in place for the lock out to work. The larger down was rec. by Tony.
Good luck.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1564down_peddle.JPG

[gnRacer98]

A wide down peddle with the up peddle cut off. As Fiat48 said you must leave the shaft in place for the lock out to work. The larger down was rec. by Tony.
Good luck.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1564down_peddle.JPG
A pic with the cover plate removed might be helpful.
How does the lockout work?

[Cole Man II]

Two gears and a lock out lever attached to the lock out handle. It will be clear when you take the cover off. Just cut the up peddle off, put the gear back on the shaft and and put it back in the case. If you don't care about the lock out just take the up peddle and gear out and save. The very day Tony rec. this I cut the top of my foot when it got caught between the two peddles. Now I have just one peddle, and I always wear shoes.
If the down peddle moves at all under your foot when you are on the gas you need a stronger spring on your up stop.
Good thread, lets keep this going.
Thanks for the driving tips.
Cole Man.

[Dave Sammons]

Here's a couple shots of the d/p's I build...There's NO way your foot will slip of this!
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1517bd6.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1517bd8.jpg
Over the years I have removed the up pedal from alot of units. Just take your time pulling it apart, and remember where all the parts go(They're pretty simple), before you do though, scribe where the shaft comes flush with the case. After you get it apart, simply chopsaw the shaft right there, detail the end and put it back together with the short piece you have left after the cut...unit is sealed and good to go!

[River Rat 005]

Back to the helmets. I've always used a full face one. I got wet once and it only took a few seconds for it to drain. As for the open face, I saw an 8 second boat crash that the driver was wearing one with the restraints. The water still pulled the helmet off and it was still attached to him as he tumbled across the water.

[ss396]

in my 30 plus years of racin outboard hydros i have used both open face and full face. i have been out of my hydros at 70 plus with both kind of helmets. the open face you have to wear a set of goggles they fog up get wet and do not like to stay in place when wet also you do not have good vision out to the sides. with the full face style i felt alot more comfortable. i used a helmet collar and when i went out of the boat i did not have any problem with the bucket effect. the helmet drained out fast. thanks to this sight i am going to add helmet straps to mine. great food for thought here to save your a$$$$$$$$.

[Dave Sammons]

the open face you have to wear a set of goggles they fog up get wet and do not like to stay in place when wet also you do not have good vision out to the sides. with the full face style i felt alot more comfortable. i used a helmet collar and when i went out of the boat i did not have any problem with the bucket effect. the helmet drained out fast. thanks to this sight i am going to add helmet straps to mine. great food for thought here to save your a$$$$$$$$.
Couldn't agree with you more on the fullface vs openface deal. Couple tricks I use on the faceshield...If the helmet does not have an anti-fog visor, I install an insert from a company called FogCity, available at most motorcycle shops, that attaches to the inside of the visor. It really works great to eliminate fogging. I also use a liquid wax on the outside of the visor to bead the water away when circle racing. :idea: :idea: :D As soon as you get up to speed...the water's gone! I'd like to hear what some of the other guys have figured out.

[vdrivedenis]

Great discussions and insites. Last instance I had while doing testing was a 105 MPH right chime (on GPS). Fortunately, I had on full gear, including helmet restraints and safety collar. When I got home, I told my wife, "never again will I bitch about the collar and helmet restraints". I have two discs out of my neck, and the hit was hard enough that I feel I would have damaged my neck severly. As it was, my neck hurt for two weeks, along with my shoulders from a death grip on the steering wheel. I also instituted a new personal rule several years ago after racing a hydro at one of our V-Drive Meets at Lake San Antonio in fairly rough water: If the other driver is not jacketed up, there will be no race on my part. The boy in the hydro was jacketed, but his father wasn't. I talked to him on the way in about wearing a jacket, and he stated that being pitched out would probably kill him anyway, so why bother. His wife was on the shore and overheard me tell him that the least he could do for his family was make sure that the body was recovered quickly and that we did not have to drag the Lake for him-his wife agreed. When I was a child, a family across the street from my fathers cabin at Lake Elsinore lost the father and four brothers in one night on the lake. I can remember dad helping drag for bodies every day for over a week. I'm running on top of 140 MPH and at 61 probably wouldn't survive a crash, but at least my wife wouldn't have to wait and suffer more.
Please encourage your fellow boaters to at leat vest up. :)
Denis