SE Class

[gnRacer98]

So what is happening with this new class?
Parker is only 6 weeks away and the first race of the new season, is this class ready to run?

[WannabeRacing]

No, the class is not ready to run. The APBA is going over the re-re-revised engine specs. It seems that the $4000 engines are looking to be more money each time they ask for engine revisions. There are boats ready to run, but what the engine specs will be are the question here. According to the powers that be, we should see final engine specs hit the floor by the end of October. Until then, there are just small block boats, and nostalgia boats with re-re-revised engines sitting between the stringers for right now. Until the APBA says O.K. From that point, a few little changes, and SE letters will find their way to the sides of these pigs.
There is a good chance that the 07' season will be run as an exibition class. In my opinion, it is just a little too late to have it for a real deal. But we shall see.
I am the stupid one here. I have my boat upside down, waiting for the final rules approval to determine where I will put the strut. I wanted to be running at Firebird, but no chance now. Can't put the strut in until I get the word from APBA on the engine specs. They could be 460 horse small blocks, or 760 horsepower. Can't place the strut until I know.
I am losing patience

[lilrick]

what is the class John? SE?

[rossdbos]

Gentlemen:
With the success of the Nostalgia classes (Flat and Endurance) and virtually no room left in the schedule (at least at SCSC/RPM events) due to the over 90 boats /race we are achieving, where in our region of APBA is this class going to be run? I told Jeff Wooton that while I like the idea of bringing back the SE class, SCSC/RPM races are already full to capacity. I am already looking into possbily running two separate weekends of racing - one for the "Professional" classes (ie: SS, PS, K, GNRA, Crackers,WFLS) and one for the "Novice/Amatuer" classes- Nostalgia Flat, Endurance, Stock Outboard, Etc. If this happens then the SE class would fit in just fine but don't count on it for 07, until that time, there isn't enough time in the day to run all those classes. Don't anyone take it the wrong way, but do we really need more classes?
I am also just wondering how to fit everything in?
Suggestions?
Ross Wallach, SCSC/RPM RACING ENT.

[superdave013]

Ross, I'd thing that's a no brainer. Dump those speed limit classes for a real race class. Not knocking the Nostalgia guys at all.

[WannabeRacing]

You have a great point.
What was initially designed to do is work in place of what the nostalgia class is doing. Giving a spot for those that want to race, but don't want to spend SuperStock money to do it. Slow enough that APBA does not want capsules, get the old boats running again, get the old drivers running again, and in a class that was slow enough to be safe, but close enough to be fun and be a crowd pleaser. Great place for a new driver/ team to start. A class that the spectators could relate to, and understand, rather than have a five minute explanation before every heat about speed limits, and how this class is totally different, and how it works. But whatever works for them. . .
The original rules were a bit restrictive, but would have made for a really cool place for any old engine builder to run with the crowd, and any old boat to be fairly competitive. No room for expensive machining, super trick parts, and big rpms. If they allow the rules like they may, where big dollar parts, big dollar builders and tons of rpms are king, then there is no reason to have this class. None. It will be dead before it hits the water.
I guess we just wait to see. My #2 hull is still upside down waiting for an announcement, and the #1 is sitting in the garage, bare, waiting as well.

[rossdbos]

The beauty of the Nostalgia deal is that ANYONE can bring what they got, blown, unblown, injected, BB, small block, etc. and slap a GPS on it and try their hand at racing. They already own the boat, so with almost no additional money involved they can "test" the waters. It is also the reason why the flat classes are growing and the GN's have 2- 3 new driver's next year. Guys that were conteplating racing got to see if they 1.) had what it takes 2.) didn't kill themselves financially.
Now, take a restrictive class, spec, even limited $/motor class and I guarrantee that it alienates more than half the perspective people interested in seeing if they want to "try" to race. Why spend the money for a spec class and purpose built boat if you don't know if you really want to race?
Some people like the 80 mph as a comfort zone to "test the waters" and then after a few races decide that 80 mph is too restictive and then commit to either PS, SS, GN, etc. Others that race it still enjoy the 80 mph and will continue to do so. So in essance we have a "beginner" class that A.) isn't restrictive -financially or otherwise and B.) is used as a "spring board" to faster "Restricted" classes.
Again, It's not that I don't like the idea of SE but find me more hours in the day to run all those classes? Also, how many SE boats are committed thus far in "theory" if this became a real class? This also helps in making decisions.
Thanks,
Ross Wallach, RPM RACING ENT.

[WannabeRacing]

I only know of 14 boats for sure when the SE becomes a real deal. 9 that are riding the fence, and about a dozen lookie-looos. A bit light, true.
Don't know how many may come out when they see the class. Or how many retired SS boats may find a small block.
But you are right. When you need a few extra heats to get your k boat, or your pro stock boat figured out, they can run in the nostalgia where they could not in the SE. I am sure very few SE runners would mind a slightly illegal boat, but no blown alcohol big chiefs.

[rossdbos]

So, if I am to understand you, 14 boats "for sure" and 9 more that are on the fence? Are these 14 boats nationwide, or in the Western U.S., etc.? How many realistically would show up at say Bakersfield or Parker event? I am trying to gauge and weigh some things.
The Nostalgia thing works regardless of opinion, needless to say that those who seem to oppose it or don't like it don't race anything anyway so what is the difference? Also, I am inclined not to mess with success. If and when there aren't enough boats to support the Nostalgia Flat's and Endurance classes (ala the Nostalgia Jet class) I will then entertain a viable SE class.
One last note, if SS is too expensive and I know that for "new" racers it is, why not Pro Stock? Is it motor cost or speed? How fast do you think a SE will average- 80, 85, ...90? I can tell you one thing the average lap speeds and straightaway speeds that the current SS, PS and K aren't as fast as one is led to believe!
Thanks,
Ross Wallach, RPM RACING ENT.

[WannabeRacing]

Those numbers are nation wide. Many are in the west. Either far northwest or far southwest.
You cannot try to make everyone happy. Ya just have to make a decision and run with it. Trying to make everyone happy is how to make no one happy. If you choose that SE is a no go. Then so be it. And don't put much weight to somone who is not a racer of that class, or a sponsor. You do what is good for you.
Why not PS? Because of speed and safety. I have the parts right now to run pro stock for the rest of my life and not run out. Too many dead friends. Too many friends with serious lifelong injuries. We have had SE boats run this year. One was a 71 year old guy. His boat runs 80 wide open. He would not be coming back if it was not for competition at safe speeds, and safe costs. Five of the SE boats for next year are retired APBA racers. A boat that would hit 88-92 on a kilo run (Our best estimation off of a perfect boat with the first engine rules) is fairly safe in a short course. At least I think that is fairly safe.
Hey, if it works out for the SE, then great. If not, I have a small block, carbon fiber Biesemeyer ski boat.

[rossdbos]

It's not what's good for me, it's what's good for the sport and also, what it realistic and safe. Also, it is a question of time, putting too many classes at an event and if something happens like weather or incidents and you can't finish the schedule tends to drive new and existing racers away. I'll be the first to admit that more than once I have been very lucky to get everything in with both weather and incidents.
So I take it you have been racing it up in Washington? You mention the 71 year old that goes 80 mph WOT, I don't tend to see much difference between that and our Nostalgia 80 mph class other than the fact if you break the 80 mph you are penalized. Call it bracket racing or don't call it racing, it doesn't much matter as it is bringing new racing blood into the sport and getting boats on the water. This is much better than the way it was a few years ago when your only choice if you were brand new and wanted to race was SS, PS, Crackerbox, K or GN. There was no "beginner" class to learn how to race, read the water, drive in "traffic" etc. and then take it to the next level.
Again, I am not against SE, more along the lines of asking "why" when the Nostalgia classes are creating competition, brining boats to race and also creating new SS, PS, GN racers.
We'll see what Robin and the IRC decide to do with the SE class and then if it becomes a class and there is enough participants, who knows it may make it on to the schedule. I will continue to have an open mind on the subject.
Now it's time to pack and get out of town for the BWRC '300' Enduro!
Thanks,
Ross Wallach, SCSC/RPM RACING ENT.

[ss396]

basic what is the SE class as far as the rules go. will it include both small block and big block engines and about what speeds. thanks for the info

[Moneypitt]

basic what is the SE class as far as the rules go. will it include both small block and big block engines and about what speeds. thanks for the info
Last I heard it was SBC only. There are several choices (3) for cyl heads, cam shafts, intakes, carbs, etc. But if it isn't on the list you can't run it, period...MP

[Life's Rough]

Ross, I'd thing that's a no brainer. Dump those speed limit classes for a real race class. Not knocking the Nostalgia guys at all.
He was just getting a feel for Nasalgia Flat at Bako.

[VDRIVERACING]

I have been racing Nostalgia Endurance for just over a year and it is a great "run what ya brung class." I have run along boats that had no chance of winning, but they didn't seem to care and had a good time. On the other hand, a "claimer"-type SBC would make a fun and affordable class. SBC's are sooo much cheaper to build for that level of performance. Providing "grass-roots" opportunities has proven effective at attracting participants.
I suggest we have both. The SE could be a intermediate step up from Nostalgia and far less investment than the "pro" classes. So how could they be squeezed in?
Here's a thought: run fewer, but longer heats. We use up a lot of time getting in and out of the water, parade laps, etc. Why not more time racing while we're already out there? Seems like it would be more efficient with more race laps per minute of the day.

[Moneypitt]

[
Here's a thought: run fewer, but longer heats. We use up a lot of time getting in and out of the water, parade laps, etc. Why not more time racing while we're already out there? Seems like it would be more efficient with more race laps per minute of the day.[/QUOTE]
Here is another thought about time, from the other side of the ramp. It doesn't take any time at all to "get the boats wet" for a heat, yet we are always waiting, either on the ramp, or in the water. At times it seems like the "officals" have never been on this side of the ramp. Do they know how the drivers feel, all suited up, helmets on, just sitting, usually in the hot sun? The PA systems are useless with boats on the water, and about 1/2 the time we don't hear the call to the ramp, just see some others headed there and follow. I know the PWC class adds to the overall picture, but 20/30 laps? is a bit much if time is short. Telling a class to "get um' wet" with 2 or 3 laps to go in the heat that is running is just plain dumb and adds so much to the ramp gridlock. You can't launch a class until the previous class clears the ramp. This problem is worse at some venues, and not so bad at others, but IMO, the announcer should be in a position to SEE the ramp(s) and call the starts accordingly, only when all the boats are ready. Maybe give a SCSC radio to at least one person in each class so the tower could be informed when the class is ready, and/or if there is a ramp jamb preventing a boat or 2 from launching. This would aid in the parade laps, and make for more even starts. Which is another subject. The drivers are instructed to mark up on the OUTSIDE boat. Why is the green flag dropped with the inside 3 or 4 boats lengths ahead??? (If the "pole" boat can't mark up correctly, put them outside after ONE failed attempt like the dirt track officials do it.)
Back to subject at hand. Ross, there is plenty of time to run two 4 lap heats in SE class, we just need to manage the available time a little better, work with the racers and crews to streamline the ramp jambs, give the crews better notice of when they really need to be ready, minumize the time the drivers sit in the water waitng, and NEVER EVER take a "break" after telling a class to get them wet............Rant over, Ray

[fc-pilot]

I don't know much, but the little I do know I will share. I know there was talk of a "claim" deal when it was first brought up and APBA said NO WAY! The original idea of the class was to be a low dollar class (within reason being that they still have to be safe), but each time we hear back from APBA it looks like "if" it happens it will be more and more expensive. Unfortunately they can't please everyone.
Ross, you brought up some great points from a race directors view. Thanks for the input. No matter what happens with the class, I guess we will have to live with it.
Paul

[CircleJerk]

Ross, I'd thing that's a no brainer. Dump those speed limit classes for a real race class. Not knocking the Nostalgia guys at all.
Not knocking superdave at all!!!!!! But:
I guess in his moment of temporary dave insanity, 'super' just doesn't adequately describe his level of intelligence on the subject. It's OK, though, anyone can flub up.....Just think, "If I only had a brain"! Nostalgia would have never been! Now get lost Tin man before the Lions have their way with you!

[CircleJerk]

Well dang, you all baited me well so here's my 2 cents:
Most of all SE boats I know of have run in Nostalgia or simply been in shows back East. Now as far as Wannabe waiting for class rules is too bad and may have some justification (strut placement) but I dont know. Too bad you didnt buy a Jones cause that wouldnt matter at all.....and you would be racing today just like my wife did. We installed a drag race 355 and guessed on the location right where the SK motor went and its not perfect but it runs 66mph average and 85mph top which is competitive in our Ski class and easy enough for a Girl to drive! Kipster says we could move SBC back a hair for some more speed, but that boat is plenty hard to beat NOW!
I personally think, you could have been racing Nostalgia for some time now and had a head start on everyone! Cant do both race vehicles so I understand. But, that's your decision. As far as the need for SE, I think not! They should run NE now! Is it a cool class and will it bring a few more boats to the ramp? For sure! But, after watching what cubic inch limits did up here to our Outlaws, sorry, it's a waste and a bad move!
No one, and I mean NO ONE will change their family pleasure v-drives to fit in a specific engine class where there is no guarantee of success or boat count! These ARE the folks running NE! The majority are: Baby Boomers with flats!
It's depressing to hear APBA is deciding the future of this new class while many out there have bought boats and are ready but beached. Actually, it pisses me off! Werent they the ones who killed the original class in the first place? I can only guess.
Nostalgia is here right now, why not support it and Ross, he is so right ON! It's an entry level class, (very important) so what if there is a speed limit, some of us NEED that! Ever see an old boat delaminate itself on the chute or in the turn? I have, more than once! Some of you have also! Furthermore, I have witnessed first hand over 35 new boat owner-drivers try their hand at circle racing and every one of them concur: Circle Racing IS the Most Fun you can have with Clothes ON! Some of them are new SS and PS drivers just like Ross stated!
Your unlovable jErKinHein

[CircleJerk]

[
Here's a thought: run fewer, but longer heats. We use up a lot of time getting in and out of the water, parade laps, etc. Why not more time racing while we're already out there? Seems like it would be more efficient with more race laps per minute of the day.
Here is another thought about time, from the other side of the ramp. It doesn't take any time at all to "get the boats wet" for a heat, yet we are always waiting, either on the ramp, or in the water. At times it seems like the "officals" have never been on this side of the ramp. Do they know how the drivers feel, all suited up, helmets on, just sitting, usually in the hot sun? The PA systems are useless with boats on the water, and about 1/2 the time we don't hear the call to the ramp, just see some others headed there and follow. I know the PWC class adds to the overall picture, but 20/30 laps? is a bit much if time is short. Telling a class to "get um' wet" with 2 or 3 laps to go in the heat that is running is just plain dumb and adds so much to the ramp gridlock. You can't launch a class until the previous class clears the ramp. This problem is worse at some venues, and not so bad at others, but IMO, the announcer should be in a position to SEE the ramp(s) and call the starts accordingly, only when all the boats are ready. Maybe give a SCSC radio to at least one person in each class so the tower could be informed when the class is ready, and/or if there is a ramp jamb preventing a boat or 2 from launching. This would aid in the parade laps, and make for more even starts. Which is another subject. The drivers are instructed to mark up on the OUTSIDE boat. Why is the green flag dropped with the inside 3 or 4 boats lengths ahead??? (If the "pole" boat can't mark up correctly, put them outside after ONE failed attempt like the dirt track officials do it.)
Back to subject at hand. Ross, there is plenty of time to run two 4 lap heats in SE class, we just need to manage the available time a little better, work with the racers and crews to streamline the ramp jambs, give the crews better notice of when they really need to be ready, minumize the time the drivers sit in the water waitng, and NEVER EVER take a "break" after telling a class to get them wet............Rant over, Ray[/QUOTE]
Some good points here, but Ray: Have you ever been on the other side? We NEVER load up the 'Just raced' bunch BEFORE the next heat is wet, pointed out, and ready to fire. Get the empty trailers out of the way unless someone is sinking, then they get priority. Of course, it depends on the site. Our three classes with at least 5 in each, takes 20 minutes. We are given 45!

[WannabeRacing]

The basic rules were 350 chevy, .060 over. any cast iron factory head 180cc or less. A few aftermarket approved 180cc cast iron heads. (All 23 degree stuff, as cast.) 10:1 max, on pump gas. With maximum spring pressure on the seat. Max and min deck heights. Also dabbled in minimum weights for certain parts. That is the base of the rules.
Sorry Jerk. Had I known that the Jones hulls were the only way to go with circle boats, I would have tried to find those molds. I guess I really screwed up that one. Some mistakes will haunt us for life.
And I agree. If nostalgia keeps up and shows up at all these events, there may not be a 'need' for SE. But SE started it's comeback almost two years ago when NE was not racing at many of these events. It was an up north thing primarily. But we can't go back now.
If they approve it, great. If not- that is fine too. But I would rather them say no for the whole class than let 20-35K engines allowed. That would do no good at all.

[Moneypitt]

[Quote]
[Here's a thought: run fewer, but longer heats. We use up a lot of time getting in and out of the water, parade laps, etc. Why not more time racing while we're already out there? Seems like it would be more efficient with more race laps per minute of the day. ]
Just to clairify, I did not post this, I only quoted it, and I do not agree with it. All of the classes competing for APBA points must run approved APBA type races. Additional laps are not approved. There are several ways to streamline the racing schedule, but this idea isn't one of them.............Ray

[stickmann]

Had I known that the Jones hulls were the only way to go with circle boats, I would have tried to find those molds. I guess I really screwed up that one. Some mistakes will haunt us for life.
What happened in your hunt?

[MWJSOne]

I have a 1977 Rayson craft set up for a Ford FE engine velvet drive calsalle V drive and a ton of FE 390 and 360 parts stringer braces road runner trailer
3 grand I have other projects and no time.

[Bad Asset Racing]

Hey Guys
What would be a good hull to race in the nastalgic class. What are some of the rules for putting one of them togeather?
Thanks Troy

[Moneypitt]

Hey Guys
What would be a good hull to race in the nastalgic class. What are some of the rules for putting one of them togeather?
Thanks Troy
Anything you want. So Cal style has an 80 MPH limit, so stay under 80.9 and run what ya brung. There are so many different boats out in this class it would be hard to say which one works best. Remember, there is Nostalia FLAT, and Nostaliga endurance, (v bottom/jet or???) So pick your style and join the fun. Now the Pacific Northwestern guys don't have a speed limit, but they run a short course which also holds the speeds down.......Circlejerk can relate alot more about that type Nosty racing........MP

[CircleJerk]

Yes, that's true but our entries are going away faster than molars from Montanans. Or was that Montanan Ladies?
Yes, Ray is right, we shorten the course and put the hammer down, down, etc. Someone needs to inform me if a shaft release is required for NE. I might have to stick the Algon in. Check out all the reasons......
Algon Advertisement:
Drag Race Proven, NEW (1969) Boat Propeller Shaft Release.
the Ultimate in Safety for the Drag Circle Racer or Family Ski Boat. (that about covers us all )
1. Automatic Positive Action Propeller Shaft Release
2.Puts Boat Into a smooth glide on fast deceleration.
3. Longer Gear Box and Engine Life.
4.Less or No strain on any part of boat when decelerating.
5. Prevents Propeller Torquing of Boat On Fast Deceleration.
6.Will Not Bury bow into Water on Deceleration. ( I hate when that happens)
7. Prevents boat from violently twisting and/or flipping from propelleer torque if the engine should lock up. (Opps)
8.No special Tools required to install.
9.Replaces sleeve coupler on propeller shaft.
10. BIA Insurance Co. offers reduced insurance rates with this safety device.
11.Guaranteed a Precision Quality Piece of Equipment.
Well that says it all, insurance? Now the good stuff:
#501 Family Ski use 1"shaft 3 1/8 O.D. 5 3/8 Length Price 195.00
#802 Family Ski and 1"shaft 3 1/8O.D. 6" length $220.00
Competition Gas
#1102 Blown Gas or 1 & 1 1/8 shaft 3 7/8 O.D 5 15/16 length $260.00
Jr. Fueler
#1503 Blown Fuel 1 & 1 1/8shaft 3 7/8 O.D. 6 1/2 length $295.00
#1803 SUPER Blown 1 & 1 1/8shaft 4 1/8 O.D.6 1/2 length $340.00
Now you can go see which one your boat has! Made at 540 erlandson street, Richmond, Calif

[VDRIVERACING]

Hey Guys
What would be a good hull to race in the nastalgic class. What are some of the rules for putting one of them togeather?
Thanks Troy
If you want to go with a flat, the field is open, although the Rayson 20' flat has the most allowable taper and still be a flat which performs better in rough water(rough water flat back half, and the front half of the hull is the same as a GN hull--Rudy only made about 18 of these, but they are still around).
The Rayson GN v-hulls seem to be the most competitive in the Endurance class, probably because they are about 800 lbs lighter than the cruiser, can handle rough water, and accelerate quite well. I am running a Rayson 21' cruiser and can hang with the GN hulls, but it's probably because I have quite a bit more HP than most of them(which is the great equalizer in Nostalgia, no engine rules). However, a reliable tunnel rammed 468 GN hull could be a very competitive boat, with the option of running some GN heats once the driving skill has been achieved. I made the mistake of building a stroker motor thinking I would never step up to GN. OOPS--engine i$ back out of the boat being made GN legal..
If you're starting out, my 2 cents is build a hull/engine combo that is legal to run in as many classes as possible..., that being a carbureted flat. Probably could find one at an affordable price too.

[gnRacer98]

I was just curious if this class was moving forward, as usual it appears to unfortunately be mired in opinions.
Bright side is we now know everything Ross is doing wrong... :D :D :D
On a serious note, anyone that walks thru the pits or attends a meeting has got to notice the overwelming amount of "Grey Hair". It appears to be the fastest growing category of the sport. If we are truely concerned about the future we need to attract a younger crowd. For 2 decades the import engine has been the rage among the young generation, yet we continue to ingore it? Not saying they will replace the K Boats (maybe not even a V-Drive), but we need to get serious about an entry level class for the younger generations. Judging from the opinions shared here it needs to NOT be based on artificial limitations such as speed limits, reduced courses or HP limits.
Any other ideas?

[Moneypitt]

I was just curious if this class was moving forward, as usual it appears to unfortunately be mired in opinions.
Bright side is we now know everything Ross is doing wrong... :D :D :D
Any other ideas?
Please understand that none of my comments/opinions were critical of Ross personally. The "big picture" of promoting these races is a task few of us have the time or knowledge to pull off. All I said was things could be condensed a little to fit in another,(SE) class. Rest assured, if Ross ever wants my help he'll ask me :) :) :argue: :argue: As far a a younger crowd, I agree. The future of this sport is in the younger generation. Jeff Conant has worked hard to enable the very young to get involved in the small knelldown hydros. As far as the 4Njunk engines, there is alot to be said about the possibilites there. Maybe a direct drive type, like the crackers, with 4 port injection, on funny gas......Or stockers on juice. Just change the chip and you have a race engine. :cry: :cry: It would seem the 4N manufacturers are more likely to get involved these days than the "American big 3".......MP

[gnRacer98]

MP,
Nobody is critisizing anyone, Ross and the SCSC Officials do a great job, but everyone hits a bump now and again and everyone benefits from feedback. I agree with your comments regarding the "hurry-up and wait" routine. With the number of capsule boats growing it will become more than a nusaince to leave drivers waiting in the water, it's a safety issue to a driver strapped to his boat.
As far as the foreign stuff, no need to re-invent the wheel, bring back the hydro's. The 1L's already utilize PWC motors, and I think there's a well known ex-K boat driver around here that got his start in 1L.