Impeller A or AA??? or ?????

[blown_superjet]

Hey guy's I have a 1979 Sanger SuperJet with a blown 461 BBC Pushing around 900hp. I have alot of cavitation out of the hole. I have heard about a pre-impeller but don't know much about them??? I Pump is a Berkeley jg with a bronse A impeller. The Jet takes about 15-20 seconds to "prime" is the best word I can use to discribe it before the boat will start moving when I first set it in the water. After the inital "prime" it move right away after it been sitting (in the water). Anyone know what the deal is???? It did not do this prior to the "rebuid". The pump was rebuilt about two years ago by J and A marine in Sac. I really love this boat and have lots of time and of course $$$$$$...... money in it it run ninty three on GPS BUT..... I want to go faster da....... So what can I do????

[67weimann]

Does it only do this upon initial launch? If so, it sounds like air is trapped in the pump and once you get that air out it is okay. There is a primer deal that lets the air out of the bowl when you first launch. I believe you just have to drill and tap your bowl to install one and if your problem is only on initial launch. This should remedy it. I can't remember who makes them but I'm sure someone will chim in.

[b's sanger]

Keep the bucket open when you launch. It helps a bit.

[W.O.T]

Keep the bucket open when you launch. It helps a bit.
that would be my first word of advice. my boat will do the same thing with the bucket closed at launch.

[RICHARD TILL]

i think you answered your own question when you said it did`nt do it before rebuild. sound like the clearences were`nt set right. about the inducer or preloader, my partner and myself put one in our dragboat and could`nt tell any difference in the holeshot and it cost us 3 mph topend. it will come out sometime this winter. maybe we can find another sucker like we were.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Do you run a droop? If so then you NEED a "prime-a-jet" from www.hi-techperformance.
If your cavitating that pump then I would say run an inducer. I installed one this year and my holeshot is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!! and Im runing a bronze "B" cut impeller......

[sdba069]

I agree with Richard on the "when it started" deal, but couldn't disagree more about the inducer. I do this every day, for a living, and I'm yet to try one in a boat that had slippage on the launch that it didn't help. In Richard's case, if the boat didn't slip before the inducer, there was nothing to gain by the installation of the inducer. Sometimes there are other hardware mods that need to be performed to allow the inducer to work properly, such as opening up a loader to make sure there is adequate water available at the hit. Also, was there a loader change or other hardware change when the pump was freshened? One other thing, are you SURE that you want to run any faster in a Superjet?????????????

[centerhill condor]

Does it only do this upon initial launch? If so, it sounds like air is trapped in the pump and once you get that air out it is okay. There is a primer deal that lets the air out of the bowl when you first launch. I believe you just have to drill and tap your bowl to install one and if your problem is only on initial launch. This should remedy it. I can't remember who makes them but I'm sure someone will chim in.
and like the other guy said open the reverse bucket when launching. Also, try with the diverter all the way up at first.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

One other thing, are you SURE that you want to run any faster in a Superjet?????????????
Thats what i was thinking!!!!!! THats extremely fast for that hull:eek:

[b's sanger]

Thats what i was thinking!!!!!! THats extremely fast for that hull:eek:
I had similar concerns when I was restoring mine. I don't have that powerplant, but there is nothing but foam under that floor stock and the strength is in the original floor glassed at the edges to the hull. I strengthened mine by runnung/glassing a 2x6 keel from the front bulkhead to the engine bulkhead under the floor without the foam. I then screwed the center of a new floor down into the keel and re-glassed everything. I would have no reservations putting a blower motor in it now, strong as a rock. One of the best mods I did to her.
B

[Rondane]

Do you run a droop? If so then you NEED a "prime-a-jet" from www.hi-techperformance.
If your cavitating that pump then I would say run an inducer. I installed one this year and my holeshot is ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!! and Im runing a bronze "B" cut impeller......
Theres a shop on ebay who sells prime a jets for $38.00 not $49.95. Item number 180042820479. You should get the pump apart and see whats going on in there as it sounds like something happened before thinking adding an inducer. Just a thought.
Thats an interesting story richardtill, never heard that before. I'm sure don what have loved to hear that bless his soul. :) You should maybe put a snoot on to get that 3mph back and compliment your setup. My .02.
rondane.

[TIMINATOR]

The only time I have seen an inducer slow a boat down was when it was added to a boat with a high rpm engine that couldn't pull the impeller cut that was in the pump. A "V" blocker grate was used to starve the impeller of water so that the engine could turn the impeller to the rpm it needed to be at "on the cam". This is what blocker grates do. We are NOT discussing tail "lift" here, tail lift only changes RPM if it changes impeller load. If the blocker grate is removed and replaced with a normal loader grate and the RPM goes down, impeller starving is what was happening, whether you believe it or not. This setup is common in drag boats and not seen TOO often in lake boats. When a blocker is run in a lake boat at high speeds for very long, impeller "burn" (cavitation) is commonly seen, as are cracks in the impeller. The next thing usually done is to add a stainless impeller "because I have so much Horsepower that the aluminum impeller can't handle it". We can allways tell who uses blockers, because they are the guys that brag about how much Horsepower they have, based on the engine RPM/Horsepower impeller chart. Those charts are essentially worthless. They are entirely dependent on impeller loading. Change the grate and change the load and it changes the RPM,change the nozzle size, same thing, but did the Horsepower change? So much for the chart..... An aluminum impeller that is PROPERLY loaded will absorb 1000 HP for a long time.
Also, some auto transmission high stall torque convertors restrict the fluid flow within the convertor to alter the stall speed, and "hit" characteristics too. Same principal. For further info, ask the pump MANUFACTURERS, (Dave and Ron). You will get less B.S. that way. Let the s--t storm begin! TIMINATOR :argue:

[bp]

if your pump is nice and tight, plus a droop, you have an upside down loop seal and there's no place for the air in the top of the bowl to vent to when you slide the thing off the trailer. opening the bucket -may- help a little bit by trying to force flow from the bucket forward as you launch, but you still may have air trapped. an airbound pump won't move water. many years ago, i lost the first elimination round i was ever in, because the pump was air bound, and by the next weekend, i had a primajet installed, and i've never worried about it or had anything similar to that since.
IMO, a cav reducer needs to be blueprinted out of the box, just like an impeller does. i've been running one for 10 years and it's a significant asset to my pump's performance.

[jweeks123]

Let the s--t storm begin!ok
An aluminum impeller that is PROPERLY loaded will absorb 1000 HP for a long time.why would you mislead people into thinking that might be true in the real world?
jw

[b's sanger]

ok
why would you mislead people into thinking that might be true in the real world?
jw
I wouldn't trust a cast aluminum impeller with that HP. A forged billet piece now that may be a bit different and probably dosen't even exist yet.

[bp]

I wouldn't trust a cast aluminum impeller with that HP. A forged billet piece now that may be a bit different and probably dosen't even exist yet.
smart. ss or bronze will work ok too.
Originally Posted by TIMINATOR
Let the s--t storm begin!
ok
no point, black hole.

[Cs19]

Hey guy's I have a 1979 Sanger SuperJet with a blown 461 BBC Pushing around 900hp. I have alot of cavitation out of the hole. I have heard about a pre-impeller but don't know much about them??? I Pump is a Berkeley jg with a bronse A impeller. The Jet takes about 15-20 seconds to "prime" is the best word I can use to discribe it before the boat will start moving when I first set it in the water. After the inital "prime" it move right away after it been sitting (in the water). Anyone know what the deal is???? It did not do this prior to the "rebuid". The pump was rebuilt about two years ago by J and A marine in Sac. I really love this boat and have lots of time and of course $$$$$$...... money in it it run ninty three on GPS BUT..... I want to go faster da....... So what can I do????
Either just deal with the delayed priming or get a prime-a-jet. Its that simple.
We cant help you on the go faster deal unless you post a video or pictures.
I wouldnt be concerned about it now having a problem priming,the air was probably escaping through a gasket prior to the rebuild, if you put a droop on during the rebuild that is most likely why you are now having this happen.
My jet does this as well, I just wait for the prime and Im on my way.

[Ken F]

As stated, your problem is that you have air trapped inside your bowl at launch. The Prime-a-Jet is your answer.
However, order one from Hi-techperformance.com, not off of ebay.
He's the one who invented it, and his works. The ones on ebay are a copy, and a crappy one at that! Buy the good one first, not after the cheap one didn't work.
Ken F

[sdba069]

For what it's worth....... I've had boats that with the addition of a droop would have problems loading on the initial startup when you first back in the water, but not after that, or I should say until it was on and off the trailer again. On these same boats, the installation of an inducer cured that problem. Before anyone jumps all over that, in not any of these cases were the inducers installed for that purpose, but ended up being a little fringe benefit. I'm not trying to recommend to someone to buy an inducer to cure a loading problem on startup, by any means, but if you do install one to help with slippage on the holeshot, as a bybroduct, it may cure the loading problem also. My Pro Limited boat would be loaded before I could get off the starter button and it never had that vent deal on it. On another note, How about that Timinator guy ????????

[TIMINATOR]

I have run my 21 Daytona with an aluminum American turbine impeller for near three years, no problems, 113 MPH. The intake pressures were balanced top to bottom, and EVERYTHING in the intake and suction housing was smoothed and blended. It used a stock, untouched impeller and inducer. The loader was cut, modified and worked numerous times. I replaced the aluminum impeller with a stainless Agressor impeller after nearly 3 years, better holeshot, no other changes. Many local Phoenix peeps have looked and seen the impeller up in there because they didn't believe it was aluminum, and many have ridden in the boat too. Rather than say it can't be done, ask how to do it or try it yourself. Again, the pump mfgrs. know how, its no secret. I still have the old aluminum impeller on the shelf too. Cavitation is a lot like wheel-hop on a drag car, if you have it, you better have good parts, if a smooth application of power is attained, lighter duty parts can be used. Analyzing everything has its benefits, but its not for everybody. TIMINATOR

[pce680]

I have a CNC machined Billet stainless Cav Reducer (inducer) that will not flex like the cast ones do.It works great with my "A" aggressor impeller running 1150 HP.
Don't know about the primer deal.Can't seem to convince myself to drill a hole in my bowl.

[sdpm]

Hi Ron, so did you get it??

[pce680]

Hi Ron, so did you get it??
Yea.Its at Lee's in Bakersfield.Can't fit two boats in my trailer.

[TIMINATOR]

Mebbie you could install the prime doohickie in the cleanout cover, or do you have a pop-off? With the long droop, I found that leaving the reverse gate up, backing in kinda fast, and letting it sit for a minute or two before starting helped the prime. TIMINATOR

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Theres a shop on ebay who sells prime a jets for $38.00 not $49.95. Item number 180042820479. You should get the pump apart and see whats going on in there as it sounds like something happened before thinking adding an inducer. Just a thought.
Thats an interesting story richardtill, never heard that before. I'm sure don what have loved to hear that bless his soul. :) You should maybe put a snoot on to get that 3mph back and compliment your setup. My .02.
rondane.
Are you kidding me????:confused: Why is it always so important for you to quote my posts and like talk bad about duane??? WTF's your problem? Your still GAY.......................Mr rogaine:rolleyes:

[Duane HTP]

an airbound pump won't move water.
BP is right. When I was designing the Prime-A-Jet, I thought at first all that was needed was a check valve. Boy did I get a surprise. In testiing, I put a pressure gauge in the top of the bowl where the Prime-A-Jet goes. I found that when I floated my tunnel hull boat off the trailer that the air trapped in the pump had 27 Lbs. of pressure. That makes the impeller have to pump enough air to overcome that pressure to fill the pump. By that time, damage can be done to the wear ring and other components from the dry running. The other problem is that if you rev it real hard a few times to make it fill, when it does fill, the shock on the impeller makes it shake and hit the wear ring. This IMPELLER TO WEAR RING CONTACT CAUSES UNWANTED WEAR.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Don't forget 396, Ronco's wonder-boat doesn't NEED a Prime-A-Jet, so his works great with the knock-off. He put it on only because the racers run them and it made his boat go 3.7mph faster than without it. :crossx:
Besides, he gets the extra "mini-tail" out of the top of it at full-speed. :p

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Don't forget 396, Ronco's wonder-boat doesn't NEED a Prime-A-Jet, so his works great with the knock-off. He put it on only because the racers run them and it made his boat go 3.7mph faster than without it. :crossx:
Besides, he gets the extra "mini-tail" out of the top of it at full-speed. :p
Oh and dont forget that rogaine uses FORGED exhaust and dual chrome 710"s :crossx: :crossx:
He loves that mini tail to death, so u cant knock him:p....................................... ..............................................

[Rondane]

As stated, your problem is that you have air trapped inside your bowl at launch. The Prime-a-Jet is your answer.
However, order one from Hi-techperformance.com, not off of ebay.
He's the one who invented it, and his works. The ones on ebay are a copy, and a crappy one at that! Buy the good one first, not after the cheap one didn't work.
Ken F
KenF why does your answer sound so well rehearsed? Looks like i hit a nerve for some reason. Have you tried the one of ebay or even seen one? i think not...i think these are just "orders from above" your posting and not fact. I emailed the guy from ebay and he is a jetshop in tenn. and guarantees it "the same as what you can get from hi-tech" or your money back, thanks for your inquiry, johnny!" So...how do you explain that?
As far as a "crappy one at that!" i think your out of line. I dont know what your problem is.... I just posted some useful information is all...unlike you. Here's a question for ya.... Don is the one who invented the inducer so....did you buy yours from him?
rondane

[SmokinLowriderSS]

blown superjet, you haven't ever posted on here if you are running a droop, but the collective suspicion is you are. Just for clarity, are you?
From what I have seen, lots of pumps, once a droop is installed, develop airlock troubles because suddenly both the inlet and outlet are very low, and it leaves a bubble in the pump housing. Some good advice has been posted on here, from backing it in with the reverse gate open to installing the Prime-A-Jet in the top of the bowl. I think all that advice will help you a lot.
Now, if you are primed fine, and it cavitates badly later, when you stomp the loud pedal really hard, then an inducer might be needed as well. If not, then likely not.
As far as Ronco goes, you can make your own decision as to the usefulness of his posts. Feel free to use the search functions to look at his history here. What you will discover is a lot of useless and pointless shit-stirring, a great deal aimed against a select few who offer information here, to include DuaneHTP, owner of High-Tech Performance, one of a dwindling number of jet-drive performance places in the US, especially in short supply in the midwest where he is located. Duane happened to develop, patent, and yes, sells, the Jetaway (a drive disconnect), the Prime-A-Jet (a bleed valve for the pump bowl), and the Ultimate Wear Ring (a non-metal, 1-piece seal in the pump), all of which are heavilly used among various areas of the performance jetting world, from lake boats to drag-racers.
I for one here am not even certain dear Ronco even OWNS a jet-boat. He's made vague reference to it, I believe ONCE, but never stood up with any pix. Hell, mine's in my avatar.
Most of us here have our favorite "pump guys", who just happen to be the guys we have dealt with happily in the past, and we will not smack on the other guys, since we have no actual experience with them, good or bad. I do not smack on Garry Snow (in Tx if I remember right), Don's Pump Shop (Don is deceased unfortunately some months ago, a loss to jetting), or any of the others who I do not know, and whom I don't do business with, simply because I am lucky to have a local guy who I am happy with, who has proven himself in the jet world as well. If Hi-Tech were to close suddenly, I'd have to find a new source of my parts and a new brain to pick for info. There are quite a few qualified pump builders out there, just not enough IMO.
Best of luck to ya with getting your Superjet ironed out BSJ. :)

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Oh and dont forget that rogaine uses FORGED exhaust and dual chrome 710"s :crossx: :crossx:
He loves that mini tail to death, so u cant knock him:p....................................... ..............................................
I heard thru the grapevine that he plans to have the first set of 30's on his trailer, soon as he gets the axles back under the house.

[Duane HTP]

Wrong again Rondane. The inducer was invented by the pipeline industry in Switzerland years ago. Don did NOT invent it. They used it to induce flow into big pumps in the liquid transfer process. Don's patent only covers a different use of a product already in use. You need to do a little studying before you let your lips leak. You never seem to have a clue what you are talking about. Don gave me a copy of the patent shortly before he died. Have you ever seen a copy of it?
i think not...
Rondane here's what a race detailed inducer looks like. (I seriously doubt that he's ever seen one).
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Inducer%20Detailed%202189em.jpg
This is my handy work. Go ahead, pick it apart. I can handle it!

[OverKill]

Duane thankyou for that insite of air in the pump. I was wondering why I would just sit there in the water for about 5 to 10 seconds before I started moveing. Is that about the right time before water will fill the bowl. I just got my pump rebuilt by Phil Bergeron and was considering your prima a jet. Let me talk to Phil and see what he thinks. If I get the all clear I will call you to order one. Thanks Again
OverKill

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

KenF why does your answer sound so well rehearsed? Looks like i hit a nerve for some reason. Have you tried the one of ebay or even seen one? i think not...i think these are just "orders from above" your posting and not fact. I emailed the guy from ebay and he is a jetshop in tenn. and guarantees it "the same as what you can get from hi-tech" or your money back, thanks for your inquiry, johnny!" So...how do you explain that?
As far as a "crappy one at that!" i think your out of line. I dont know what your problem is.... I just posted some useful information is all...unlike you. Here's a question for ya.... Don is the one who invented the inducer so....did you buy yours from him?
rondane
Whoa Whoa Whoa, Time out!!!!!
If I remember correctly you were crying about someone else making an inducer. You told everyone to go for the DPS and not one by someone's product that was a copy.....

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Ooops wrong thread;)

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Wrong again Rondane. The inducer was invented by the pipeline industry in Switzerland years ago. Don did NOT invent it. They used it to induce flow into big pumps in the liquid transfer process. Don's patent only covers a different use of a product already in use. You need to do a little studying before you let your lips leak. You never seem to have a clue what you are talking about. Don gave me a copy of the patent shortly before he died. Have you ever seen a copy of it?
Rondane here's what a race detailed inducer looks like. (I seriously doubt that he's ever seen one).
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Inducer%20Detailed%202189em.jpg
This is my handy work. Go ahead, pick it apart. I can handle it!
Man, that's purdy..............
Oops, drooled on my keyboard. HPE IT DESN'T SHRT UT. Damn.
:D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I emailed the guy from ebay and he is a jetshop in tenn. and guarantees it "the same as what you can get from hi-tech" or your money back, thanks for your inquiry, johnny!" So...how do you explain that?
rondane
So, you run a Prime-A-Jet Ronco?
Do you run the orriginal or the knock-off Ronco?
So you have first hand experience that the e-bay copy works as well as Hi-Tech's one?
What is the setup you are running it on?
How long you been using it?
What were the problems you had before installing it?
I'll ASSume you had Don install it, that's a given. DPS being the only shop in the world worth the price of an old bologna sandwich.
Your vastly knowledgable info is requested here Ronco.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

what is an ultimate wear ring?
this was 12-12-05 :idea:
But you know oh so much..:rolleyes:

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

What is the setup you are running it on?
.
WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT TO SEE HIS BOAT PERIOD!!!! I DONT THINK HE EVEN OWNS A F*CKING BOAT:mad:

[sanger rat]

I have a CNC machined Billet stainless Cav Reducer (inducer) that will not flex like the cast ones do.How do you determine that the cast inducers flex?

[SmokinLowriderSS]

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT TO SEE HIS BOAT PERIOD!!!! I DONT THINK HE EVEN OWNS A F*CKING BOAT:mad:
I don't either 396. :cool:
That is precisely why I asked questions of his boat's setup. If he has one, he can prove it, show it, and we'll see, otherwise he can STFU. :220v:

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

I don't either 396. :cool:
That is precisely why I asked questions of his boat's setup. If he has one, he can prove it, show it, and we'll see, otherwise he can STFU. :220v:
Lets face it, rogaine is miserable,boatless and GAY!!!!!!

[Placecraft Dragstar]

http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Inducer%20Detailed%202189em.jpg
Looks like a nice paper weight for the office desk.

[Gearhead]

Looks like a nice paper weight for the office desk.
Why would you say that?

[Placecraft Dragstar]

Why would you say that?
Only because it is polished and looks nice :rollside: better looking then a paper weight that you buy :220v:

[Gearhead]

It is a major polish all right! I did some minor reshaping of transistions on mine and then polished it.... but it is not the mirror that Duane worked up.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

or is he Chet's alter ego?
Good point:idea::idea:

[MikeF]

or is he Chet's alter ego?
Chet lives in New York, Rodane lives in Ohio.
Maybe he's his brother-n-law? :crossx:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

or is he Chet's alter ego?
I've suspected this for a long time. :idea:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Chet lives in New York, Rodane lives in Ohio.
Maybe he's his brother-n-law? :crossx:
'Course, who says either of them is honest as to their location. For all most folks on here could know, I might be in Canada instead of Kansas (except a few folks know me personally). :idea: :rolleyes:

[jweeks123]

? for pce680.
is your billet stainless cav reducer polished like th eone above
jw

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Rondane here's what a race detailed inducer looks like. (I seriously doubt that he's ever seen one).
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Inducer%20Detailed%202189em.jpg
This is my handy work. Go ahead, pick it apart. I can handle it!
Ronnie's gonna tear ya up over that fingerprint smudge over on the right, such lousy craftsmanship. :p

[pce680]

? for pce680.
is your billet stainless cav reducer polished like th eone above
jw
No.It has a machine finish.

[skeeter]

Those things look a lot like an aftermarket solas impeller for an old yamaha jet ski.

[Placecraft Dragstar]

How do you determine that the cast inducers flex?
How do you know that it is flexing?? You brought up a good point sanger rat

[DEL51]

This was a great thred until it turned sour. Yes You can run a sanger superjet to 100mph and maybe more, and without a droop snoot.I had a 75 superjet with a blown 468 pushing about 800-850hp. Pump was setback with no rideplate, intake was set a little deeper.It had a straight connection to the place diverter and a nice wedge at about 7 deg. the engine turned 63-6400 rpm with a billet 4 blade aluminum impeller.The man that re furbished and painted the hull put full length stringers in it.It had a double concave bottom kind of like a bat wing shape.My friend detailed the bottom and regelled it. speed coat was applied. when I owned it it had a22 gallon belly tank that fit underneath the back to back bench seat. From 95 and up it would chinewalk,But not in an extreme way.I run a tunnel hull now and love it.The ride is way better especially in rough stuff. When I attempted to use a droop on the sanger, it lined up at the keel line so I never tried it. Balance everything out so you can carry the nose and pump loading will improve. Be careful and have a jetaway for sure, as it may save your life. My boat hull was heavier than factory after the restoration. Nuff said. Wish we had more on prima jet and inducer though, loaders too.

[Ken F]

Know what guys? This ignore feature is tits! Rogain's drivel doesn't even show up. He can't PM me. It's the best thing since buttons on a shirt!
Ken

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I suspect most of the reason that superjet was halfway safe at that speed was the upgrading to full-length stringers, decent hull support and stiffness.
As far an an inducer goes, I fail to see where flex would be any kind of a problem, since it is NOT the pressure-producing location in a jet pump. That is the impeller 8 to 9 inches after it. Also, billet flexes, it's metal, and anything metal flexes, IF you put enough pressure on it. Perhaps a cast inducer flexes, perhaps not, perhaps a billet one flexes less. It would ONLY flex under pressure against the blades, and, as noted above, it's job is to feed the impeller, which has all the back-pressure against it. Compared to the perhaps several hundered PSI pressure differential from the front to the back faces of an impeller, there's going to be what, 20 PSI of increased pressure behind the inducer?
I'm also curious as to how someone quantified inducer flex because, as above, IMO, it is going to be just short of impossible to quantify, and even less important IF it occurs. I'm always open to learn more tho.

[Rondane]

Know what guys? This ignore feature is tits! Rogain's drivel doesn't even show up. He can't PM me. It's the best thing since buttons on a shirt!
Ken
I tell ya what there KenF better watch what personal shit you post. I see your pretty good on the google end of things....seems you have alot of time on your hands and it's really not cool. I can do the same thing and maybe post YOUR personal shit on the internet. So you better fix it.....SOON! I'd PM ya(which is the PROPER thing to do) but you have to play dirty like pussyman and post the PM's on the threads so here we are.
While your at it tell me why the prima a jet on ebay is a "cheap" copy and not the real thing like the gentleman says it is? He's feedback is about perfect and he guarentee's it...so what gives? You just mad that someone out there is has a better price on the SAME thing and it hurts your boss? Tell me your opinion now...not a rehearsed one from behind the scenes.
Oh yea...i'm 396's brother in law in case you didnt know!
rondane

[Rondane]

Wrong again Rondane. The inducer was invented by the pipeline industry in Switzerland years ago. Don did NOT invent it.
Did YOU invent the jet a way?
Rondane here's what a race detailed inducer looks like. (I seriously doubt that he's ever seen one).
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Inducer%20Detailed%202189em.jpg
This is my handy work. Go ahead, pick it apart. I can handle it!
That is mighty nice piece, how much extra does that cost over a stock DPS and what perfomance gains to your guarantee?
rondane

[steelcomp]

Wrong again Rondane. The inducer was invented by the pipeline industry in Switzerland years ago. Don did NOT invent it. They used it to induce flow into big pumps in the liquid transfer process. Don's patent only covers a different use of a product already in use. You need to do a little studying before you let your lips leak. You never seem to have a clue what you are talking about. Don gave me a copy of the patent shortly before he died. Have you ever seen a copy of it?
Rondane here's what a race detailed inducer looks like. (I seriously doubt that he's ever seen one).
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/Inducer%20Detailed%202189em.jpg
This is my handy work. Go ahead, pick it apart. I can handle it!
That's real shiny, but not what I'd call "race prepped". I'd like to see some close-ups of the leading and trailing edges. Just a hunch, but I'd think a little texture would be better than high polished, or spray that thing with some speed coat.
But it is purdy.

[steelcomp]

Originally Posted by Duane HTP
Wrong again Rondane. The inducer was invented by the pipeline industry in Switzerland years ago. Don did NOT invent it.
Rondane:
Did YOU invent the jet a way? What's that got to do with Don not inventing the Inducer?

[Duane HTP]

Yes, I did invent the Jetaway, and I also gave it the name Jetaway. I still have the sealed copy of the original registered letter sent to the patent office in 1979. You see when you come up with a patentable item, you send them a registered letter with the idea in it and you send yourself one too, but you never open yours. This way if ever need be, you can prove the date of when you came up with the idea.
As for the detailed inducer. Some people feel it makes a real big difference to detail it, some feel there is not much difference. I myself believe that the amount that it helps depends a lot upon how well the original inducer was finished. They don't all come finished the same. As far as a guarentee for performance, I have never made a statement as such. I feel that it's just like so many other things that we do to the pumps. The detail of all of the things done to a pump add up to a total performance package for a good race pump more than any one thing that can be singled out. I could name twenty things that we do to a race pump. I would not guarantee any one of them to really do x more MPH or ET. But I will guatantee the total detailed and race prepped pump to give you an increase in performance. How much? Each boat is different, I don't know.

[Duane HTP]

Steelcomp, send me your email address. I'll be glad to send you some pictures of the leading and trailing edges.

[sanger rat]

Duane, What your take on the cast inducers flexing?I have a CNC machined Billet stainless Cav Reducer (inducer) that will not flex like the cast ones do.

[Duane HTP]

I would have to study their means of measuring the amont of flex of an inducer to make a judgment. I don't kow.

[1slowboat]

i got a ss. cav reducer myself for my project, they do work and seen it first hand, don't know if I will need the prim a jet yet, still building the boat, but here is a pic of the kit I got
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/961PICT0943.JPG
don't mind the fly poop on the inducer....lol

[1slowboat]

BTW, that cav. reducer in your pick Duane looks sweat!!!!!!!!! I thought about polishing mine but shaped and installed instead, don't know the pros or cons of a polished one?

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I tell ya what there KenF better watch what personal shit you post. I see your pretty good on the google end of things....seems you have alot of time on your hands and it's really not cool. I can do the same thing and maybe post YOUR personal shit on the internet. So you better fix it.....SOON! I'd PM ya(which is the PROPER thing to do) but you have to play dirty like pussyman and post the PM's on the threads so here we are.
While your at it tell me why the prima a jet on ebay is a "cheap" copy and not the real thing like the gentleman says it is? He's feedback is about perfect and he guarentee's it...so what gives? You just mad that someone out there is has a better price on the SAME thing and it hurts your boss? Tell me your opinion now...not a rehearsed one from behind the scenes.
Oh yea...i'm 396's brother in law in case you didnt know!
rondane
Since you're making threats (and interestingly enough, threatening someone who will not see it) why don't you post up MY shit buddy-boy. g'head. I dare ya. Looks like somebody FOUND Ronnie.
Hey Ronco, why don't you ask what the difference is in the copy-prime-a-jet from the man who invented the prime-a-jet. I don't thin HE'S got you on "ignore".

[Duane HTP]

The inducer works more like a prop than an impeller, (which it is not). You don't see too many speed coated or rough finishes on the high dollar props do you? Hmmm, wonder why. The speed coat would be nice though if you wanted to check the wash patterns or for cavitation.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Yes, I did invent the Jetaway, and I also gave it the name Jetaway.
DOH!!!
That'll leave a mark Ronco. :cry:
Ronco, ANYbody who says " "X" modification will give you "Y"-mph performance gain, I guarantee it." is a BS artist talking out of their ass, and is to be avoided.
Hell, we're still wanting to see YOUR BOAT Ronco.

[steelcomp]

i got a ss. cav reducer myself for my project, they do work and seen it first hand, don't know if I will need the prim a jet yet, still building the boat, but here is a pic of the kit I got
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/961PICT0943.JPG
don't mind the fly poop on the inducer....lolIf you look at the leading edge of the blade with the DPS stamped on it, it's got a big warp in it. The other two blade's leading edges aren't too bad, but needed attention as well. On mine, I tried to work that edge straight (without heat) but ultimately decided to just get it as straight as possible with a file. I can see that balde causing "issues" if left un-attended. The rest got a good cartridge roll finish, and the leading edges will shave you. Trailing edges are straight, but not as sharp. Also tried to keep edges at 90* to shaft with very sharp, precise corners, and smooth outer edges. I also made sure the finish of the cartridge roll was in the direction of the water flow. I'd post a pic but it's in the boat.

[steelcomp]

The inducer works more like a prop than an impeller, (which it is not). You don't see too many speed coated or rough finishes on the high dollar props do you? Hmmm, wonder why. The speed coat would be nice though if you wanted to check the wash patterns or for cavitation.I didn't suggest a rough finish, and you don't see too many highly polished ones, either. Same reason you do something to the high gloss gel coat finish on the bottom of the boat. It breaks surface tension and reduces water adhesion which causes drag. I've alaso seen more than one speed coated impeller.

[1slowboat]

If you look at the leading edge of the blade with the DPS stamped on it, it's got a big warp in it. The other two blade's leading edges aren't too bad, but needed attention as well. On mine, I tried to work that edge straight (without heat) but ultimately decided to just get it as straight as possible with a file. I can see that balde causing "issues" if left un-attended. The rest got a good cartridge roll finish, and the leading edges will shave you. Trailing edges are straight, but not as sharp. Also tried to keep edges at 90* to shaft with very sharp, precise corners, and smooth outer edges. I also made sure the finish of the cartridge roll was in the direction of the water flow. I'd post a pic but it's in the boat.
actually that is a sanding mark, deflecting the light, i lightly sanded the first inch of the blades before i worked the leading edge... and they are razer sharp now, that is an old pic, about 3 months ago, it has since been installed in my pump, and yes I did all my own pump work, been a member for years and grew up on jetboats, I'm a mechanic/welder by trade and work for janecek performance in wylie texas, you had me taking a double look at it but if you look close you will see the light sanding on it... :rollside:
It does look bent in the pic, but its not, light does wierd shiaght sometimes..lol

[67weimann]

wow, some good information here if you sift through the http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1132bs.gif posted by Ronco. I mean, here we all are trying to learn and better understand the dynamics of how to improve our boats and here he is just bashing everyone...WTF and still he hasn't posted any pics of HIS BOAT

[steelcomp]

actually that is a sanding mark, deflecting the light, i lightly sanded the first inch of the blades before i worked the leading edge... and they are razer sharp now, that is an old pic, about 3 months ago, it has since been installed in my pump, and yes I did all my own pump work, been a member for years and grew up on jetboats, I'm a mechanic/welder by trade and work for janecek performance in wylie texas, you had me taking a double look at it but if you look close you will see the light sanding on it... :rollside:
It does look bent in the pic, but its not, light does wierd shiaght sometimes..lolOK...not going to argue. Yours looks just like mine did out of the box, and on mine, that one leading edge looked like a lasagna noodle. I see the same thing on yours, but if you say not, then OK.

[1slowboat]

i'll post one of mine I am currently working on.........
1988 condor tx 20' the verry first tx 20 ervin capps ever built!
what ya think?
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/961condor_project_060.jpg

[1slowboat]

OK...not going to argue. Yours looks just like mine did out of the box, and on mine, that one leading edge looked like a lasagna noodle. I see the same thing on yours, but if you say not, then OK.
i'm not trying to argue with any one, just throwing some pics out, i have learned a few thing reading some of your posts, and i'm not here to badmouth any one :) I love the jetboats, and the people that are real i listen to more than, well you know...

[steelcomp]

I'm thinkin you're gonna need a bigger steeing wheel. :D
Looks like it's going to haul a$$.

[1slowboat]

LMFAO, yea still don't know which one i want to use yet,.....might have one made? don't know yet....
over 900hp on pump gas, twin turbo, twin fuel infected bbc, 468ci 990 heads ported pollished ect....hope it will make the 120 mark but I don't know if I really want to stay in it for more than 9 or 10 seconds...lol... :rollside:

[steelcomp]

i'm not trying to argue with any one, just throwing some pics out, i have learned a few thing reading some of your posts, and i'm not here to badmouth any one :) I love the jetboats, and the people that are real i listen to more than, well you know...Ditto. Just sharing my experience as well. My inducer took waht I considered to be quite a bit of work to get it to where I was happy with it. That's more often than not with aftermarket parts, though.

[1slowboat]

I know what you meen, most of the time its the people who deliver the parts, leves the parts place fine, but when you get it.... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
any way the prime a jets do work and Shark in the pond can vouch for that, his new race boat didn't have one and got to the line his time to go and nothing, got back to the pitts and he went somewhere? don't know where, came back and had one installed before he made it back... think it was htp in fort worth that hooked him up, anyway we went on to win the high points in SDBA 2006, and this wasn't directed to anyone, just some more first hand experiance.....hope some of this info helps some people in there quest to run better and solve minor pump stuff...

[bp]

Duane thankyou for that insite of air in the pump. I was wondering why I would just sit there in the water for about 5 to 10 seconds before I started moveing. Is that about the right time before water will fill the bowl. I just got my pump rebuilt by Phil Bergeron and was considering your prima a jet. Let me talk to Phil and see what he thinks. If I get the all clear I will call you to order one. Thanks Again
OverKill
the first weekend i raced, it happened to me several times. came off the trailer with the bucket open each time. the first round, pump was airbound for a good 40 seconds, which is about 15 seconds after the other boat left. the blueprinted inducer was also in the boat.
i would rather not start the engine without the pump full of water, and i really don't want to have to think about it at that time, as there are several other things to deal with during those moments.
trying to move air out with the pump can create other problems. entrained air pockets in fluid flow systems or pumps has been known to cause "water hammer".
eventually, there are things you can do to work the air out of the pump. if you're willing to live with that, fine. i'm not, and i really don't want the risk of damage. since that first time, in over 550 1/4 mile passes, including some in pretty rough water, i've never had a pump problem.

[Duane HTP]

Steelcomp, wasn't trying to argue, Just trying to make the point that an impeller and porp are treated just a little different. It makes a difference if the unit works in a pressure enviroment, or a wash enviroment., thats' all.

[steelcomp]

Steelcomp, wasn't trying to argue, Just trying to make the point that an impeller and porp are treated just a little different. It make a difference if the unit works in a pressure enviroment, of a wash enviroment., thats' all.No arguement taken. Just throwing out ideas...I'm still learning a lot about props and impellers.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Oh yea...i'm 396's brother in law in case you didnt know!
rondane
Only because me and the Arizona State Cardinals have gang nights with your sister.......

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

I coated my inducer,impeller,bowl, and droop with speedcoat. I did this to see where the cavitation is. I will be inspecting the pump in a few weeks. Then I can make hardware changes;)

[67weimann]

I coated my inducer,impeller,bowl, and droop with speedcoat. I did this to see where the cavitation is.
How will this allow you to see where the cavitation is? Will the speed coat wear differently where the cavitation is??? Enlighten me with your vast knowledge mang... :D :D

[DEL51]

I coated my inducer,impeller,bowl, and droop with speedcoat. I did this to see where the cavitation is. I will be inspecting the pump in a few weeks. Then I can make hardware changes;)
Smart move. I hope you will post the results.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

How will this allow you to see where the cavitation is? Will the speed coat wear differently where the cavitation is??? Enlighten me with your vast knowledge mang... :D :D
Yes, the cavitation will chew away the speedcoat much faster than it will wear away under smooth water flow, just the same as the water flow causes very little (if any) wear to metal parts but cavitation actually eats away at the impeller surface, rideplate surface, anywhere it occurs.

[Rondane]

Rondane: What's that got to do with Don not inventing the Inducer?
if that jetaway was invented in say 79....just when was don's "ratchet" made and where did the IDEA come from?
rondane

[steelcomp]

The idea of a ratchet has been around since the midevil ages....it dosen't take a genius to apply it to different appplications. I don't think lord Don invented the ratchet. :rolleyes:
Ever hear of a Whirlaway? There have been different driveline safety devices around for a long time.

[Duane HTP]

Don's was made in the early 80's and was a take off of a whurlaway. Andy Calsale Engineering, (who made the Whurlaway), even produced the gears for him. It was not a patented product. Don quit making them around 2002 and started selling the Jetaway. Several times I traded him Jetaways for inducers. We became very good friends. Don was a hell of a good guy. He did good work.

[pce680]

Don's was made in the early 80's and was a take off of a whurlaway. Andy Calsale Engineering, (who made the Whurlaway), even produced the gears for him. It was not a patented product. Don quit making them around 2002 and started selling the Jetaway. Several times I traded him Jetaways for inducers. We became very good friends. Don was a hell of a good guy. He did good work.
Didn't Donas Singleton make a rachet also ? Or was that one the same as the one Don made ?

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

How will this allow you to see where the cavitation is? Will the speed coat wear differently where the cavitation is??? Enlighten me with your vast knowledge mang... :D :D
Check what smokinLoLo posted;)
Smart move. I hope you will post the results.
I will definatelly;) I have been lazy lately. I will start pulling parts off in a few weeks;)

[Placecraft Dragstar]

How do you know that it is flexing?? You brought up a good point sanger rat
I see all these go fast pump wizards on here still have not answered your question sanger rat,alot of other BS but not good tech stuff!!!

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

I see all these go fast pump wizards on here still have not answered your question sanger rat,alot of other BS but not good tech stuff!!!
Oh my bad. Since I can answer that WHY dont YOU help us out:idea:

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I see all these go fast pump wizards on here still have not answered your question sanger rat,alot of other BS but not good tech stuff!!!
PD, I think you (and sanger rat) are wanting an answer that does not exist, and I am as interested as anyone.
I don't think anyone has measured, in any manner, flex in a jet boat inducer.
If anyone has, many of us would like to know more, including pump builders.
I don't know just how you would go about measuring it, and, if someone has, we would all like to find out just how.
Yea, there's a lot of BS in this thread, a lot of it surrounding Ronco, he seems to get hit with as much as he shovels, and he shovels A LOT. There also happens to be a good bit of tech info, try passing it thru the filter again. A good 1/2 of this thread has tried to be serious.

[Placecraft Dragstar]

I have a CNC machined Billet stainless Cav Reducer (inducer) that will not flex like the cast ones do.It works great with my "A" aggressor impeller running 1150 HP.
Don't know about the primer deal.Can't seem to convince myself to drill a hole in my bowl.
All I was wondering to is how this guy knows that the cast ones flex and the billet ones dont?? That is all, He said that they do and how does he know this??

[steelcomp]

I think about the only way to try and measure the flex would be to calc. the load on the impeller at a given rpm, and somehow duplicate that load under a static condition. You could do a comparison in that manner, although it wouldn't be real accurate unless you could load the blade (vane) evenly, and do both exactly the same. The difference couldn't be much, and would probably be neglegable. What you may find, is that, depending on what alloys are used, and what type of billet the machined inducer was made from (considering grain structure and direction and type of billet) the billet one may flex more and ultimately be weaker. Interrupted grain structure vs. that of a casting isn't always the best scenario. If the billet is forged, that's a different story.
Just some thoughts.

[bp]

All I was wondering to is how this guy knows that the cast ones flex and the billet ones dont?? That is all, He said that they do and how does he know this??
since ron's not answering, i'll toss a swag out there. if someone machines something out of billet, it "must be" stronger than cast. ergo, there must be a reason to have increased strength in order to sell the thing. the easiest claim to make (to talk up your product) is to slam the other product. i.e., mine's better because yours isn't as good.
i've never heard of a cast inducer showing signs of flex; that is, not heard of root cracking, or blade cracking. mine looks like the day it was installed in '97 (blueprinted, not polished), and it's absorbed a lot of wot launches from a dead stop. granted, it's not 1150hp, only 850, but it's a heavy boat -:). i know of other boats with more hp that use 'em, again, i've not heard of any problems (other than when rocks are sucked up). then again, it's a known fact that 304ss impellers WILL begin to flex over time from high hp application, will develop stress cracks and ultimately come apart, taking the pump with them, if they're not monitored in high hp applications, and replaced when the signs are there.
i've typed long descriptions about what this thing is actually doing in the pump, so i'm not going to repeat it here (that can be found through a search). suffice to say, they are installed for a specific reason, and they work.
if ron's seen or heard of stress cracking in a cast inducer, i'd like to hear about it.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Threaten him with a boot to the chest :cool:
Hey now, stop instigating:D

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

since ron's not answering, i'll toss a swag out there. if someone machines something out of billet, it "must be" stronger than cast. ergo, there must be a reason to have increased strength in order to sell the thing. the easiest claim to make (to talk up your product) is to slam the other product. i.e., mine's better because yours isn't as good.
i've never heard of a cast inducer showing signs of flex; that is, not heard of root cracking, or blade cracking. mine looks like the day it was installed in '97 (blueprinted, not polished), and it's absorbed a lot of wot launches from a dead stop. granted, it's not 1150hp, only 850, but it's a heavy boat -:). i know of other boats with more hp that use 'em, again, i've not heard of any problems (other than when rocks are sucked up). then again, it's a known fact that 304ss impellers WILL begin to flex over time from high hp application, will develop stress cracks and ultimately come apart, taking the pump with them, if they're not monitored in high hp applications, and replaced when the signs are there.
i've typed long descriptions about what this thing is actually doing in the pump, so i'm not going to repeat it here (that can be found through a search). suffice to say, they are installed for a specific reason, and they work.
if ron's seen or heard of stress cracking in a cast inducer, i'd like to hear about it.
Good post BP:cool:

[Clockstart]

since ron's not answering, i'll toss a swag out there. if someone machines something out of billet, it "must be" stronger than cast. ergo, there must be a reason to have increased strength in order to sell the thing. the easiest claim to make (to talk up your product) is to slam the other product. i.e., mine's better because yours isn't as good.
i've never heard of a cast inducer showing signs of flex; that is, not heard of root cracking, or blade cracking.
if ron's seen or heard of stress cracking in a cast inducer, i'd like to hear about it.If you do a search on inducers (2003?) HBjet posted a picture of a "two blade" billet inducer. While the thread is still on Hot Boat, the picture is not. Too bad. Maybe someone saved that pic and can post it. This is the only example of a broken inducer that I can remember showing up here.
cs

[SmokinLowriderSS]

All I was wondering to is how this guy knows that the cast ones flex and the billet ones dont?? That is all, He said that they do and how does he know this??
I am equally curious PD, and would like the same explanation.
Since we are here, and this question has not been asked before (and I have no idea, and no, I have not searched) just what materials are the inducers made from, cast and billet? Are they all Aluminum? Are any other metals comonly used in higher HP aplications (such as bronze or steel) or is the Al. plenty for it's purpose?
I am looking for the "broken inducer" thread.

[Clockstart]

The thread is entitled "Bronze Impeller?". HBjet posted a picture on 2-13-03 at 5:51 pm.
cs

[Placecraft Dragstar]

I am equally curious PD, and would like the same explanation.
Since we are here, and this question has not been asked before (and I have no idea, and no, I have not searched) just what materials are the inducers made from, cast and billet? Are they all Aluminum? Are any other metals comonly used in higher HP aplications (such as bronze or steel) or is the Al. plenty for it's purpose?
I am looking for the "broken inducer" thread.
I guess they just want this to die and not answer it?? This was a good question but no one wants to step up and answer??

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I think it's going to die, because, as I think I posted earlier, I do not think there is anything resembling proof, evidence, or even study of inducer flexing. IMO the "billet inducer flexes less than cast" is the usual hype surrounding "billet" anything, and is not only unfounded, but currently unprovable.
I guess I'll just ASSume the inducers are all Aluminum since I have not seen any pix of any gold-colored ones, and the Al is economically workable, and I think (in the absence of evidence otherwise) plenty for the aplication of supplying the pressure impeller, not generating pressure itself.

[sleekcrafter]

I think it's going to die, because, as I think I posted earlier, I do not think there is anything resembling proof, evidence, or even study of inducer flexing. IMO the "billet inducer flexes less than cast" is the usual hype surrounding "billet" anything, and is not only unfounded, but currently unprovable.
I guess I'll just ASSume the inducers are all Aluminum since I have not seen any pix of any gold-colored ones, and the Al is economically workable, and I think (in the absence of evidence otherwise) plenty for the aplication of supplying the pressure impeller, not generating pressure itself.
Son, never assume anything, the inducers are not aluminum, but rather stainless steel. Some are cast, some are billet, and to determine the amount of flex is, not humanly possible. The amount of flew must be determined mathematically, by calculations of speed, force and drag, the you may have some idea of the amount of flex going on.

[steelcomp]

Son, never assume anything, the inducers are not aluminum, but rather stainless steel. Some are cast, some are billet, and to determine the amount of flex is, not humanly possible. The amount of flew must be determined mathematically, by calculations of speed, force and drag, the you may have some idea of the amount of flex going on.
Yes, they're stainless, but I completely disagree that you can't test the flex, if that was a necessary goal. You don't need any info at all to compare the billet against the cast, just do a comparative load test. That's simple enough.
I think what is obvious is, that under the conditions the inducer is used, there's probably very little thrust load on it anyway, so the difference between the billet and the cast is most likely neglegable.
'probly don't make no difference, either. :rollside:

[sanger mike]

Hey guy's I have a 1979 Sanger SuperJet with a blown 461 BBC Pushing around 900hp. I have alot of cavitation out of the hole. I have heard about a pre-impeller but don't know much about them??? I Pump is a Berkeley jg with a bronse A impeller. The Jet takes about 15-20 seconds to "prime" is the best word I can use to discribe it before the boat will start moving when I first set it in the water. After the inital "prime" it move right away after it been sitting (in the water). Anyone know what the deal is???? It did not do this prior to the "rebuid". The pump was rebuilt about two years ago by J and A marine in Sac. I really love this boat and have lots of time and of course $$$$$$...... money in it it run ninty three on GPS BUT..... I want to go faster da....... So what can I do????
UM DID ANYBODY NOTICE 5 PAGES LATER AND HE NEVER REPLIED. BACK :idea: I think his problem is far past the cav reducer . we need more info on the boat.

[sleekcrafter]

it's claimed to feed 10-20% more water that the pump can handle, still thats some serious water mass, and spinning 6-7K on top of that. I'm not saying if it does, or does'nt, but it's hard to prove. I think your right on, with the materials, differences would be negligable.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Thx for the info sleek. :)