enderle tuning question

[Badburn]

On the regular square barrel valve that I have, there is a main bypass, and an idle bypass. Both have an adjustable spring loaded valves where the bypass hoses hook up.
Does anyone know if these are both supposed to bypass fuel at idle?
I would assume that the idle bypass should bypass at idle, and then stop bypassing when the barrel valve is opened.
Not sure why there is a spring valve inline with the main bypass though.
(this is a methanol setup if it matters)Anybody? :cool:

[Blown 472]

Might help???
http://www.hilborninjection.com/tech_mech_bypass_primary.asp

[Kurtis500]

On the regular square barrel valve that I have, there is a main bypass, and an idle bypass. Both have an adjustable spring loaded valves where the bypass hoses hook up.
Does anyone know if these are both supposed to bypass fuel at idle?
I would assume that the idle bypass should bypass at idle, and then stop bypassing when the barrel valve is opened.
Not sure why there is a spring valve inline with the main bypass though.
(this is a methanol setup if it matters)Anybody? :cool:
Do you have a picture? I use Enderle and could help. I need a pic though, since some set-ups run blanks in bypasses depending on how you plumb it.

[Fiat48]

Take a picture of your barrell valve with bypasses in place so I can see the setup.

[Badburn]

Take a picture of your barrell valve with bypasses in place so I can see the setup.
BAM............the clear hoses are temporary so I can see when they are bypassing. Im trying to perfect the smoothe idle and quick throttle resopnse.
http://www.westcoastoutlaws.com/barrelvalve.jpg

[Fiat48]

The bypass on your left coming out of the bottom of the metering block is your idle check. Usually that is about a 2 lb spring. All main fuel bypasses through that check.
The bypass on your right on your incoming fuel line is a high speed bypass. In that upper brass section above it....a high speed pill goes in there.
That bypass will have a pretty heavy spring in it. Generally the spring pressure is set to bypass fuel above 7000 rpm.
The main jet screws in behind the plug on the upper front section of the metering valve. Part throttle fuel control with this system is done by the slot in the barrell valve spool.
Is this a first time running it or have you run this before?
What size fuel pump do you have?
What size nozzles do you have?

[Badburn]

Just to clarify, the one on the right is the main bypass, with the pill in it, and the one on the left is the idle bypass, the hi speed is in a different location(not in the picture) it is tee'd off of the main feed line near the fuel pump.
What I am wondering is: what is the function is of the spring poppet valve on the main return line? Should it stop bypassing at idle?
And also, when should the idle bypass stop bypassing?
This combo has run quite well for 3 years, just trying to learn a bit and perfect the tune. I have a crisp clean idle, and it will idle for an hour, but there is a hesitation when you slam the throttle down hard. :)
80A pump
50/51 nozzles

[Fiat48]

Ok. That is not the normal way to run the main jet but it can work.
However....you better check that where the normal enderle jet screws in into the metering valve....there is a blank installed. Blank meaning..no hole in the pill.
A hesitation when you slam the throttle hard is a lean barrell valve setting. Just richen the barrell valve link. The way you have the linkage turned around there....that would be shortening the hex length. Injectors must have an excess of fuel at idle to cover up...because injectors have no accelerator pumps like a carb does. Hence the hesitation.
If it is like you say...and there is a blank in the normal main jet holder....and this bypass on your main inlet fuel line is actually the main jet with your system....then that poppet should be a 2 or 3 lb spring and it should bypass fuel back to the tank any time the engine is running.
Now since it is plumbed this way...I would imagine that the bypass on your left now has a slightly heavier (probably 10 to 12 lbs) spring in it and actually acts as a part throttle bypass. The only time this bypass can flow fuel is when the throttle is less than 1/4 open AND your system exceeds the pressure of whatever that spring is in there. Past 1/4 throttle...nothing will bypass through that line.
If it works for you..then so be it. Its not the "normal" way an Enderle is plumbed...its more toward a "Kinsler" way.
With an 80a pump and those nozzles....you shoudl be in the small main jet range of around 70 or so...and most guys dont run a high speed. The pump is your high speed.

[Blown 472]

Would I need the high speed bypass?? I was looking at this diagram and it is optional, what is it for?
http://www.hilborninjection.com/PDF/installation.pdf

[Badburn]

ok, with alll that understood, what would I be changing by putting a different spring or a shim under the spring it these two poppet valves?
If I understand this right, the valve in the main bypass is just to hold the main bypass closed for starting, thereby directing the fuel to the injectors until enough fuel pressure is built up to pop the valve open- then it stays open while the system is running. Would you agree with that?
I dont really understand the purpose of the poppet valve in the idle bypass.
I'm thinking if I can shut the idle bypass off a little sooner, it will cover the hesitation, and I can leave the barrel valve setting where it's at for a clean idle. Most of the time this engine is at idle while I'm driving to the store, the only time I throttle it is when the cops are chasing..can't have a hesitation then! :crossx: :crossx:

[Badburn]

Would I need the high speed bypass?? I was looking at this diagram and it is optional, what is it for?
http://www.hilborninjection.com/PDF/installation.pdf
If I undersand it right, the hi speed is optional, it bleeds off excess fuel pressure at high RPM (the pressure keeps increasing the higher you rev the mechanical pump) for increased power...lean is mean.
I ran mine without one for a year of so, but installed it to pick up some top end MPH.

[Fiat48]

ok, with alll that understood, what would I be changing by putting a different spring or a shim under the spring it these two poppet valves?
If I understand this right, the valve in the main bypass is just to hold the main bypass closed for starting, thereby directing the fuel to the injectors until enough fuel pressure is built up to pop the valve open- then it stays open while the system is running. Would you agree with that?
I dont really understand the purpose of the poppet valve in the idle bypass.
I'm thinking if I can shut the idle bypass off a little sooner, it will cover the hesitation, and I can leave the barrel valve setting where it's at for a clean idle. Most of the time this engine is at idle while I'm driving to the store, the only time I throttle it is when the cops are chasing..can't have a hesitation then! :crossx: :crossx:
Yes..the main poppet is just to hold closed until the motor starts. So no messing with that.
Now the other poppet is now a "secondary"......and only functional at 1/4 throttle or less......so a stiffer spring in that will put more fuel to the motor than a lighter spring would. Consider this poppet as a "part throttle bypass".
With this system as plumbed.....it is going to be a combination of the spring in the poppet on the secondary....and the barrell valve adjustment to get rid of the hesitation.
Systems plumbed like this are for cars mostly....and staging a car on the starting line to keep the motor from loading up. But you have to find the balance to keep from a flat spot in the throttle.
I ran a similar system in the drag cars with powerglides which worked much to my advantage in staging. I could idle in smooth and stage exactly where I wanted to. Since I was against the converter while staged...the motor stayed cleaner and left better. Yet if I yanked the throttle quick in the pits...I had a little hesitation.
The flat hated this type of system and I had to go back to conventional Enderle plumbing.

[Fiat48]

Would I need the high speed bypass?? I was looking at this diagram and it is optional, what is it for?
http://www.hilborninjection.com/PDF/installation.pdf
If you are using the small pump on alcohol....you will see little if any gain messing with a high speed. That is the beauty of the little pump. One less bell to answer.

[Badburn]

Good info, thanks Fiat. :)

[Blown 472]

If you are using the small pump on alcohol....you will see little if any gain messing with a high speed. That is the beauty of the little pump. One less bell to answer.
What is a small pump? I am getting P150 with the injector.

[Fiat48]

Pg 150. 7 gpm. Same as an enderle 80a-1.

[Blown 472]

Pg 150. 7 gpm. Same as an enderle 80a-1.
Would this pump work with alky for a 446 inch motor?

[wsuwrhr]

This thread is worthless without pictures of the rest of the car.
Damn tease.
NICE
Brian

[Fiat48]

Would this pump work with alky for a 446 inch motor?
Yes it will work just fine unless you would be driving a real tight blower 30% over or more (approx).

[GofastRacer]

If I undersand it right, the hi speed is optional, it bleeds off excess fuel pressure at high RPM (the pressure keeps increasing the higher you rev the mechanical pump) for increased power...lean is mean.
I ran mine without one for a year of so, but installed it to pick up some top end MPH.
A quick explanation on a high speed, an engine reaches a point(rpm) where it will pass only so much air no matter how high you rev the engine, but the pump is positive and and all it knows is more rpm more fuel, so what the high speed does is release the extra fuel to keep it from getting fat on the top end!.. I think this made sense!..

[Blown 472]

Yes it will work just fine unless you would be driving a real tight blower 30% over or more (approx).
Would I need to?

[Badburn]

This thread is worthless without pictures of the rest of the car.
Damn tease.
NICE
Brian
I thought youd never ask!http://www.westcoastoutlaws.com/badapril22.wmv

[GofastRacer]

Very cool ride!.. :cool:

[Fiat48]

Would I need to?
I would think by the time you entered the tight blower and 30% or more od that you would be broke or could not afford the chassis components to get it to hook up. Or both.

[GofastRacer]

The bypass on your left coming out of the bottom of the metering block is your idle check. Usually that is about a 2 lb spring. All main fuel bypasses through that check.
The bypass on your right on your incoming fuel line is a high speed bypass. In that upper brass section above it....a high speed pill goes in there.
That bypass will have a pretty heavy spring in it. Generally the spring pressure is set to bypass fuel above 7000 rpm.
The main jet screws in behind the plug on the upper front section of the metering valve. Part throttle fuel control with this system is done by the slot in the barrell valve spool.
Thanks Bob now I understand the Enderle, another no brainer!. Now on the secondary, do they have shims for fine tuning or do you just swap springs???..

[Blown 472]

I would think by the time you entered the tight blower and 30% or more od that you would be broke or could not afford the chassis components to get it to hook up. Or both.
Not to highjack this tread but since we are talking injection. I wont need a ton of boost with alky will I?? I am thinking some where in the 12 to 15 psi range.

[Fiat48]

The Enderle hats dont have a secondary. The way he has it plumbed or the Kinsler way gives you a secondary.
The ORIGINAL Enderle system works like this:
Fuel enters the metering block and travels through the spool area, then to the pill area (which a screw in jet controls the main metering here) and then the return fuel (which is a combination of what went by the slot in the spool depending on throttle position AND what fuel flowed through the fixed main jet) comes ou of the bottom of the metering valve to a poppet valve with a light 2 lbs spring. That fuel then is routed back to the tank.
Now...many guys do the high speed right where he is using and calling his main jet....that is why there is a "pill holder above that poppet and it takes a screw in type main jet.
So...as original...the only part throttle adjustment you have (secondary) is the slot in the spool.
As original it works good for drag applications because we could care less about part throttle. But in a converter car...a secondary is a nice deal and also for drag car staging.
Now back to his deal as plumbed....stiffer spring and/or shims behind the spring equals more fuel to the motor (less return fuel). Remember only up to 1/4 throttle. Then the secondary is out of the picture.

[Fiat48]

Not to highjack this tread but since we are talking injection. I wont need a ton of boost with alky will I?? I am thinking some where in the 12 to 15 psi range.
Look at it this way. An atmosphere is 14.7 lbs at sea level. Every 14.7 roughly doubles the HP. I think that will be enough.

[Blown 472]

Look at it this way. An atmosphere is 14.7 lbs at sea level. Every 14.7 roughly doubles the HP. I think that will be enough.
Cool, I talked to 78 and he said I could call hilborn and they will ball park my tune up.
Btw, badass camero. Do you race it?

[GofastRacer]

The Enderle hats dont have a secondary. The way he has it plumbed or the Kinsler way gives you a secondary.
The ORIGINAL Enderle system works like this:
Fuel enters the metering block and travels through the spool area, then to the pill area (which a screw in jet controls the main metering here) and then the return fuel (which is a combination of what went by the slot in the spool depending on throttle position AND what fuel flowed through the fixed main jet) comes ou of the bottom of the metering valve to a poppet valve with a light 2 lbs spring. That fuel then is routed back to the tank.
Now...many guys do the high speed right where he is using and calling his main jet....that is why there is a "pill holder above that poppet and it takes a screw in type main jet.
So...as original...the only part throttle adjustment you have (secondary) is the slot in the spool.
As original it works good for drag applications because we could care less about part throttle. But in a converter car...a secondary is a nice deal and also for drag car staging.
Now back to his deal as plumbed....stiffer spring and/or shims behind the spring equals more fuel to the motor (less return fuel). Remember only up to 1/4 throttle. Then the secondary is out of the picture.
Ok gotcha, so for driveability you use a secondary just like any other deal and tune it the same way, then put the main pill in the barrel valve and use the pill holder on the right for the high speed right!..

[Badburn]

Cool, I talked to 78 and he said I could call hilborn and they will ball park my tune up.
Btw, badass camero. Do you race it?
I did for 20 years every weekend, nowdays, once in a while, Mostly just drive it to the local coffee shop and pick the kids up fron school in it. :)

[Blown 472]

I did for 20 years every weekend, nowdays, once in a while, Mostly just drive it to the local coffee shop and pick the kids up fron school in it. :)
Thats cool :rollside: :rollside: