excessive noise at the sandbar--HELP

[propellator]

I would like to have any information regarding how to defend against United States Fish and Wildlife Service citation for excessive noise. When I recieved the citation several boaters including law enforcement people approached me and they disscused the paticulars of why and how the citation given did not conform to the method used by the officers issuing the ticket.

[Phat Matt]

I don't think they have black and white guide lines. I think if they say it's to loud, you lose.

[moneypit]

I don't think they have black and white guide lines. I think if they say it's to loud, you lose.
I dont agree. These arent indians giving tickets. Get a lawyer. Phuggit....

[Phat Matt]

I dont agree. These arent indians giving tickets. Get a lawyer. Phuggit....
I am sure the lawyer would be cheaper than the ticket. ;)
Even if you win, you lose.

[Thorsinc]

Do a search on this forum – “Noise Level” you’ll find lots to read. Also go to www.boatcop.com Then Click - Ask BoatCop, He will give it to you straight.
If you’re the person I’m thinking of, I remember when you/someone got a ticket -
When the test was taking place it was done a few feet away from the boat, not to far off the cliff where it echoes and music was blaring from other boats. Boats idling by you. I say fight the ticket, If anything you’ll teach them to conduct the test properly… or not
Don't forget,"Pipes save lives"
Good Luck

[DaddyMack]

omewhat related.....I had a friend pulled over in the channel for people having their legs hanging over front of the boat and for someone standing in the boat and allegedly blocking his view. As far as I am aware no such regs exist. The only thing the regs state is that no one may be on the bow if the boat is going greater than no-wake speed and nothing exists as to allegedly blocking view. THey make the stuff up as they go in Havasu.
needless to say it should be all thrown out but I am sure there are people that just pay the fines on that crap.
I would fight it... but then I am an attorney and it would cost me nothing to do so except my time. :)

[YeLLowBoaT]

having your legs hung over the side while running is against the law.

[shueman]

omewhat related.....I had a friend pulled over in the channel for people having their legs hanging over front of the boat and for someone standing in the boat and allegedly blocking his view. As far as I am aware no such regs exist. The only thing the regs state is that no one may be on the bow if the boat is going greater than no-wake speed and nothing exists as to allegedly blocking view. THey make the stuff up as they go in Havasu.
needless to say it should be all thrown out but I am sure there are people that just pay the fines on that crap.
I would fight it... but then I am an attorney and it would cost me nothing to do so except my time. :)
Better do some more research before you get in court. Not knowing the Rules of the Road is why mandatory boater licensing is needed.

[ratso]

omewhat related.....I had a friend pulled over in the channel for people having their legs hanging over front of the boat and for someone standing in the boat and allegedly blocking his view. As far as I am aware no such regs exist. The only thing the regs state is that no one may be on the bow if the boat is going greater than no-wake speed and nothing exists as to allegedly blocking view. THey make the stuff up as they go in Havasu.
needless to say it should be all thrown out but I am sure there are people that just pay the fines on that crap.
I would fight it... but then I am an attorney and it would cost me nothing to do so except my time. :)
...accident waiting to happen??? Yeah, I'd defend those clowns too... :rolleyes: Too bad you couldn't get in on the Dog Food deal, that had to pay real good! It's all fun til someone gets killed over someone elses stupidity... :yuk:

[BadKachina]

omewhat related.....I had a friend pulled over in the channel for people having their legs hanging over front of the boat and for someone standing in the boat and allegedly blocking his view. As far as I am aware no such regs exist. The only thing the regs state is that no one may be on the bow if the boat is going greater than no-wake speed and nothing exists as to allegedly blocking view. THey make the stuff up as they go in Havasu.
needless to say it should be all thrown out but I am sure there are people that just pay the fines on that crap.
I would fight it... but then I am an attorney and it would cost me nothing to do so except my time. :)
I think you may be alright with the person riding with their legs hanging over as long as you were in the channel and at no wake. The law says
"A person shall not operate a watercraft while allowing a person to ride on the gunwales, transom, or the decked-over bow of a watercraft propelled by machinery operating in excess of a wakeless speed."
Its on page six of the Az boating laws.
Az boating laws (http://www.azmasterbaiters.com/files/boating_laws_06.pdf)

[ratso]

I think you may be alright with the person riding with their legs hanging over as long as you were in the channel and at no wake. The law says
"A person shall not operate a watercraft while allowing a person to ride on the gunwales, transom, or the decked-over bow of a watercraft propelled by machinery operating in excess of a wakeless speed."
Its on page six of the Az boating laws.
Az boating laws (http://www.azmasterbaiters.com/files/boating_laws_06.pdf)
Wakeless is "not moving" isn't it, or is that a gray area? :idea:

[BadKachina]

Wakeless is "not moving" isn't it, or is that a gray area? :idea:
I'm not really sure either.

[Goad]

I had a friend pulled over in the channel for people having their legs hanging over front of the boat
i remember as a kid (20 or so years ago) my sister and i would do this every time we went through the channel....it never was a problem then.....but times do change.

[ratso]

I'm not really sure either.
LMAO... that kinda attitude will get you a ticket buddy! :hammer2: :D

[BrendellaJet]

Wakeless is "not moving" isn't it, or is that a gray area? :idea:
if you are allowed to drive through the no wake zone then I would say wakeless is moving without a wake.

[ratso]

i remember as a kid (20 or so years ago) my sister and i would do this every time we went through the channel....it never was a problem then.....but times do change.
I suppose you'd have to worry about the driver being distracted and someone slipping overboard... Might not be able to shut the motor down in time if someone fell over the front, even at idle speeds. I know me and my sisters and friends used to do that all the time when we were kids... only one of them lost a leg...
J/K :D

[Havasu Luvr]

If I rememeber correctly didn't LHC pass new ordinances concerning some of these issues? Dancing, bow riding etc.... The channel falls under city control according to dity officials. LE must have issued it under some kind of safety ordinance

[ratso]

if you are allowed to drive through the no wake zone then I would say wakeless is moving without a wake.
I can't move my boat without causing a wake... actually I think it's quite impossible for any boat. Small wake... but still a wake. :idea:

[Mardonzi]

I can't move my boat without causing a wake... actually I think it's quite impossible for any boat. Small wake... but still a wake. :idea:
So much for getting out of the launch area....

[Jordy]

I think you may be alright with the person riding with their legs hanging over as long as you were in the channel and at no wake. The law says
"A person shall not operate a watercraft while allowing a person to ride on the gunwales, transom, or the decked-over bow of a watercraft propelled by machinery operating in excess of a wakeless speed."
The one and only time I've been in contact with water LEO's was over this. We were in Parker, in the no wake zone in front of Bluewater heading towards the lower rockpile/sandbar in RD's Nordic. I was DD'ing that day and the girls sat up on the gunwales of the open bow to take their shorts off. SBSO came over on plane for a "safety inspection" because of it, which consisted of pulling me out of the boat and onto theirs for a sobriety check at 10:00 AM. Seems as though it's just another excuse to initiate contact. :notam:
Unfortunately on something like a noise ticket, it's cheaper and less of a hassle to just pay the ticket rather than hire a lawyer and try to fight city hall. :(

[propellator]

That's the mind set that their counting on, sometimes it's better to stand and fight for your privledges if you want to keep them

[DaddyMack]

"Wakeless Speed" is moving and is specifically defined in the statutes.
Its not against the law as far as the boating regs go... and like I said... I would fight it.. hate cops that hassle (I happen to be part time Judge too)...
BUT I haven't seen the laws for the city of Havasu...so there could be something in their statutes...However, My buddy's attorney in Havasu says no such law exists. His attorney, who has been around for quite some time there believes it will be thrown out.
Just a reason to hassle. Hopefully between the new mayor and a new Police Chief (didn't they get one of those too?) things might operate more like a tourist destination. They should take some lessons from the Sturgis Cops on how to handle the crowds and the courts there on how to handle paying (and returning) visitors.

[86 catalina]

That is why havi and parker suck now.To many police to many boats to many drunks to much rough water to many tough guys.Any palce where a chick goes to jail for flipin a titty is absouletly wack..... I still go to the river and dont deal with any of that bull shit/.

[Boatcop]

I would like to have any information regarding how to defend against United States Fish and Wildlife Service citation for excessive noise. When I recieved the citation several boaters including law enforcement people approached me and they disscused the paticulars of why and how the citation given did not conform to the method used by the officers issuing the ticket.
The US Fish and Wildlife Service placed noise retrictions in effect throughout the National Wildlife Refuge. There aren't any "spelled out" noise regulations in Federal Statutes, so they rely on the Governing Laws and sound measurement methods of the State. Now that could either be AZ regulations or CA regulations. Some courts may take the word of the officer that a boat is creating "excessive or unusual noise". A boat running with no muffling devices installed would have a hard time arguing that they weren't creating excessive noise. It all depends on the Federal Magistrate.
Regarding sitting on the gunwale, or hanging your feet over the edge of the boat at wakeless speed. It may not be specified in regulation that this is illegal per se, but then again, neither is riding on the hood or roof of a motor vehicle in motion. But a cop will still pull you over for it as being an unsafe action.
The law does state it is illegal to operate a vessel in a careless, reckless or negligent manner. Loosely defined, this means that any operation that has the potential to injure persons or damage property is prohibited. All we have to do is cite cases where persons were injured from that specific action to prove our case.
We have no shortage of accident reports showing that actions such as those do actually cause injuries.

[DaddyMack]

Good points boat cop.. certainly depends on what they were doing at the time though and if people are truly acting in an unsafe manner they should get cited..just don't like to see such ambiguous statutes used as a catch all. As far as the noise goes its something like 86 decibels at 50 ft. according to AZ regs... but there are no rules how that is measured i.e. with complete silence except for boat etc.... as far as my buddy goes the one kicker is that he has an open bow and the kids were in the seats with their feet over.

[Kilrtoy]

The US Fish and Wildlife Service placed noise retrictions in effect throughout the National Wildlife Refuge. There aren't any "spelled out" noise regulations in Federal Statutes, so they rely on the Governing Laws and sound measurement methods of the State. Now that could either be AZ regulations or CA regulations. Some courts may take the word of the officer that a boat is creating "excessive or unusual noise".
.
Now that BC has spoken, I watched F and G all summer sit at the bar and then get people who were under full power , 3/4 power 1/2 power pass by and then they would chase them down. This is not how the law is written. You must be at idle and I had a friend bring in the Ca and Az law, articulate in court the errors of the said administered test and win.
Good luck

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

I am a man of principle but i just paid the 110 dollars for the noise ticket. There are alot of people talking about "fight it" but for the lost wages and headache, ill let my principles lie on this one. Did i mention i got my noise ticket driving my outboard equiped boat? Pick and choose your battels wisely! It is a B.S. ticket, but so is a seat belt ticket, tinted window, helmet..... you get the point. As far as the bowrider ticket.... well i have some expierence with that one to! My advice is not to have people hanging body parts over the side of your boat while its moving. Sure you could fight it, but your not gonna. SUCKS doesnt it!

[Boatcop]

Miguel,
All AZ requires is a minimum of 50'. No boat or engine speed is specified. Above 86db @ 50' or more is a violation.
How far is 50'? From the Judge's bench to the last row in the court room. I know. I measured it. :D
As far as outboards getting nabbed, I suppose it's possible, if the engine is tricked and/or air box removed/modified. But personally I've never had the opportunity to measure one or even give one a second look. I believe it might be an "affirmative defense" if it was a stock whacker.
I do know, however, that some of the Formula 1 outboards are pretty loud. Maybe I'll hang out at Blue Water next weekend and test some just for baseline info.

[Kilrtoy]

Miguel,
All AZ requires is a minimum of 50'. No boat or engine speed is specified. Above 86db @ 50' or more is a violation.
How far is 50'? From the Judge's bench to the last row in the court room. I know. I measured it. :D
As far as outboards getting nabbed, I suppose it's possible, if the engine is tricked and/or air box removed/modified. But personally I've never had the opportunity to measure one or even give one a second look. I believe it might be an "affirmative defense" if it was a stock whacker.
I do know, however, that some of the Formula 1 outboards are pretty loud. Maybe I'll hang out at Blue Water next weekend and test some just for baseline info.
I see, I was under the impression they had to be stopped.... I stand corrected.
50 to the last pew, damn that is a small room
50' in L.A. is to the defendants table :boxed:

[propellator]

I went to federal magistrate court (in Kingman) for excessive noise today. Here are your options, pay the fine, plea bargin, plead not guilty. Pay the fine- give money no record all is forgiven (untill next time-you know the routine! the sliding scale), plea bargin-try to negotiate a lessor offence with a uniform that has such bad breath you can't sit in the same room with him, but the fine is the same, plead not guilty- LISTEN UP HERE, if you plead not guilty now the offence becomes CRIMINAL and if found guilty you face A MAX OF $2,500.00 fine and or 6 months in jail FOR LOUD PIPES? Then the judge has the audasity to ask during his explanation has anyone threated you into pleading guilty. NOW HERES MY POINT, THEY JUST WANT YOUR MONEY, YOU CAN'T WIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RIGHT OR WRONG, YOUR BEING SHOOK DOWN!!!!
This attitude is going to expand to other offences on the river in the refuge (read the federal laws for the river area IE 25 mph not currently enforced, sound famillar), they don't want us there anymore. Sound familiar you duners?
They don't want us in the channel.
The hammer is dropping on power boating in Havasu.
After coming here for twenty years (when they begged for our money) living here for seven years, the writing is on the wall they want a more sedate crowd (like the Palm Springs blue hairs) in an effort to change the towns image (did you know that there are about 6000 housing lots now being entitled for TRACT housing in the Havasu area) and promote the town to a diffrent group of newbies with more money.
Power boating (as we currently know it) is doomed, they won't be happy untill we are all in 18 foot Bayliners.
CONSEQUENTLY: my boats are for sale and my house is for sale
F-em
PS: If you think I'm full of crap, Think of me in a couple of years when your on the water in your 4 banger Bayliner and limited to 45 MPH.

[propellator]

By the way KILRTOY thanks for the words of encouragement. I understand your continuing message here on the boards to the peeps without memories.
If goverment can get this from the CHUMPS TODAY imangine what we can get from them tomorrow.

[Boatcop]

Federal Magistrate in Kingman?
Intersting since the only Federal Courts in Arizona are in Phoenix, Tucson, Flagstaff, Yuma and Prescott.

[propellator]

See you don't know it all, Flagstaff judge travels to Kingman once a month.

[Ultracrazy]

I went to federal magistrate court (in Kingman) for excessive noise today. Here are your options, pay the fine, plea bargin, plead not guilty. Pay the fine- give money no record all is forgiven (untill next time-you know the routine! the sliding scale), plea bargin-try to negotiate a lessor offence with a uniform that has such bad breath you can't sit in the same room with him, but the fine is the same, plead not guilty- LISTEN UP HERE, if you plead not guilty now the offence becomes CRIMINAL and if found guilty you face A MAX OF $2,500.00 fine and or 6 months in jail FOR LOUD PIPES? Then the judge has the audasity to ask during his explanation has anyone threated you into pleading guilty. NOW HERES MY POINT, THEY JUST WANT YOUR MONEY, YOU CAN'T WIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RIGHT OR WRONG, YOUR BEING SHOOK DOWN!!!!
This attitude is going to expand to other offences on the river in the refuge (read the federal laws for the river area IE 25 mph not currently enforced, sound famillar), they don't want us there anymore. Sound familiar you duners?
They don't want us in the channel.
The hammer is dropping on power boating in Havasu.
After coming here for twenty years (when they begged for our money) living here for seven years, the writing is on the wall they want a more sedate crowd (like the Palm Springs blue hairs) in an effort to change the towns image (did you know that there are about 6000 housing lots now being entitled for TRACT housing in the Havasu area) and promote the town to a diffrent group of newbies with more money.
Power boating (as we currently know it) is doomed, they won't be happy untill we are all in 18 foot Bayliners.
CONSEQUENTLY: my boats are for sale and my house is for sale
F-em
PS: If you think I'm full of crap, Think of me in a couple of years when your on the water in your 4 banger Bayliner and limited to 45 MPH.
Bye