Aluminum blocks

[67weimann]

So what is the pros vs cons on going all aluminum in a jet boat?

[wsuwrhr]

So what is the pros vs cons on going all aluminum in a jet boat?
cons.
COST,
Water corrosion.
COST.
Pros
150 min lbs off the boat weight.
cool factor
unlimited life, practically the last block you will have to buy.
Replaceable sleeves, weldability.

[wsuwrhr]

http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/63indymaxxblock-med.jpg

[wsuwrhr]

Why didn't you post a pic of a good block!
Rio
I'm sure everyone has already seen plenty of pictures of blown up Chevy's and Ford's

[YeLLowBoaT]

Another con is you lose some power over a iron block.

[QuickJet]

Another con is you lose some power over a iron block.
It's usually the heads you would find the loss of power in (if any) not so much the block. Even then the difference in power is slim. You are far better off with the weight savings on the heads and block than the cast iron units. And 300lbs (block and heads) off the weight of the boat is a huge difference in weight. That's one fat friend or two skinny ones. Or 3 hot chicks. :rollside:

[NUTHIN]

ive noticed a major loss of power with this damn motor of mine.. guess its not a good idea to put cast iron heads on a aluminum block.. shit guess i got that one backwards.. :cry:

[QuickJet]

ive noticed a major loss of power with this damn motor of mine.. guess its not a good idea to put cast iron heads on a aluminum block.. shit guess i got that one backwards.. :cry:
ha ha ha, when you gonna learn :D

[Flying Sterling]

Anyone know of a decent Aluminum Block For sale??
Price expected to pay?

[steelcomp]

Loss of power with an aluminum block can out weigh any weight advantage in a drag car, but not sure that's so with a boat. Heads have nothing to do with alum. vs. iron block. Simply put, the iron block is much more rigid and will hold it's shape better. Less heat expansion, less flexing, and so on. On a 500 in. Pro Stock motor it can be as much as 50hp. Up side is as already said...repairability being the biggest factor, and the weight.

[NUTHIN]

you can buy my motor if ya want.. everything is for sale.. :)

[QuickJet]

Here yah go Barrett, let me structure your post a bit better :rollside: So what is the pros vs cons on going all aluminum in a jet boat?
you can buy my motor if ya want.. everything is for sale.. :)
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/102782006_0628Image0026-med.jpg

[NUTHIN]

you should put that motor in that sanger hull.... :idea:
it would make it purdy damn fast.. :rolleyes:
huh -500 hp in that flat. hell it hasnt ever seen that much.. :yuk:
my motor mite have 600hp tho..

[QuickJet]

you should put that motor in that sanger hull.... :idea:
it would make it purdy damn fast.. :rolleyes:
huh -500 hp in that flat. hell it hasnt ever seen that much.. :yuk:
my motor mite have 600hp tho..
You are seriously "jacking" this guys thread! Don't we have one of our own in the "just girls" section. :p

[NUTHIN]

pro.
lightweight, minimal machine work, looks good. repairable..
life of it..
con.
COST. put a blower on it and you add back 1/2 the weight u saved. and COST. and everyone wants to know if its really a lumi block or paint!!!!!!!!
and COST

[Ryan00TJ]

Would a closed cooling system be necessary in a freshwater enviroment? I've been running my aluminum AFR's since 92 and just this winter do they need some work done to them inside the water passages. They've seen mostly freshwater but a few ocean runs. If I could get 10 years out of an aluminum block I would be pleased.
I've been toying with the idea of a 402ci alluminum LS1 in my boat in the future. I have a few friends with them that have layed down 525rwhp with a good cam and AFR heads in street applications. That's well over 550 flywheel. In my light 2600lbs boat it should scream. The only downside is COST as was mentioned before.

[67weimann]

You are seriously "jacking" this guys thread! Don't we have one of our own in the "just girls" section. :p
Yeah get back to the "just girls" thread damn it...lol :crossx:
Anyways, yes cost is an issue but after looking Around they are only marginally more than a "quality" iron block.
Back to the corrosion issue, how long would it last in a freshwater environment with regular use? Would you want to blow out all the water in the block after you put her up in the garage?
And as stated, power loss is an issue in street use considering you run it hot but in a boat it doesn't run hot. Or shouldn't anyway...so other than the obvious cost, would there be any drawback to an aluminum block?

[Unchained]

I've done 7 seasons on my Arias Century block.
I inspect it every year and I have'nt noticed any excess corrosion.
With the water drained out It's dry for 6 or 7 months of the year anyways here in Mi.
I've heard the statement about the aluminum block making less power than an iron block before. Maybe so but,
Aluminum makes engines, cast iron makes anchors.
The weight savings of the aluminum block more than offsets the weight of the two turbo's at 50# each. :rollside:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/220heatshields.jpg

[wsuwrhr]

You are right about the cost of iron versus alloy.
The final decision was made when I figured cost to finish machine an everyday
440 core block.
Limited boring after the fact, thinner bore walls at the bigger bore sizes too.
Brian
Anyways, yes cost is an issue but after looking Around they are only marginally more than a "quality" iron block.
Back to the corrosion issue, how long would it last in a freshwater environment with regular use? Would you want to blow out all the water in the block after you put her up in the garage?
And as stated, power loss is an issue in street use considering you run it hot but in a boat it doesn't run hot. Or shouldn't anyway...so other than the obvious cost, would there be any drawback to an aluminum block?

[67weimann]

You are right about the cost of iron versus alloy.
The final decision was made when I figured cost to finish machine an everyday
440 core block.
Limited boring after the fact, thinner bore walls at the bigger bore sizes too.
Brian
So do you run an alloy block?

[wsuwrhr]

So do you run an alloy block?
I own an Indy RB 440 based block. Similar to the picture I posted.
I have NOT ran the alloy motor yet, as I stopped acquiring parts for the time being. I haven't decided on the final configuration, so I still need pistons and a camshaft.
Brian

[67weimann]

Sweet...Get that beast together

[wsuwrhr]

Sweet...Get that beast together
Trying to move, not spending any large sums of money until I make sure the house deal is done.
I bought a Hondo Sprint to hold my alloy Mountain Mopar for my Christmas present last year and I haven't finished it.
Trust me. I want to. Responsibilities/liabilities first.
Brian

[Cs19]

cast iron heads on a aluminum block
please tell me its a joke NUTHIN.

[wsuwrhr]

please tell me its a joke NUTHIN.
I didn't want to ask myself.
Brian

[NUTHIN]

everyones questioning my antics.. shade tree mechanic extrodinare.. :D hahaha but no not 4 realz.. i went all aluminum mtr..
pic is up the thread 8-9 back.. made for good comedy tho!!!

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

please tell me its a joke NUTHIN.
Oh yeah, now I see a new 6th street kid. Aluminum block and iron heads:D
Iron headed brothas:D

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Iron headed brothas:D
I guess Ill requote my own quote:D
Iron
Headed
Brothas
Association
Now thats funny:D

[FuelInMyVeins82]

One thing I have noticed on a few boats w/ aluminum blocks is that with the lack of weight in the back they tend cavitate much easier. I'd imagine you could fix this w/ hardware changes but from what i've seen it may not be as easy as it sounds. Pros have definetly been mentioned above. Just food for thought.

[cyclone]

i keep hearing people say that an aluminum block won't make the power that an iron block engine will. i have to question that. Has any company actually built two identical engines with both blocks and dyno tested them back to back? I don't put much stock in rumors so until somebody actually proves this theory i'll disregard it. All i know is that my engine runs good and the weight savings was more than worth the extra $$$.

[NUTHIN]

cyclone.. ide like to see some info also..

[QuickJet]

i keep hearing people say that an aluminum block won't make the power that an iron block engine will. i have to question that. Has any company actually built two identical engines with both blocks and dyno tested them back to back? I don't put much stock in rumors so until somebody actually proves this theory i'll disregard it. All i know is that my engine runs good and the weight savings was more than worth the extra $$$.
What he said!!

[SmokinLowriderSS]

I guess Ill requote my own quote:D
Iron
Headed
Brothas
Association
Now thats funny:D
LMAO!!

[steelcomp]

i keep hearing people say that an aluminum block won't make the power that an iron block engine will. i have to question that. Has any company actually built two identical engines with both blocks and dyno tested them back to back? I don't put much stock in rumors so until somebody actually proves this theory i'll disregard it. All i know is that my engine runs good and the weight savings was more than worth the extra $$$.It's not a rumor, it's pretty basic knowledge among people who know what they're doing, and yes, it's been proven. If you just stop and think about it for a minute, it makes sense.

[wsuwrhr]

It's not a rumor, it's pretty basic knowledge among people who know what they're doing, and yes, it's been proven. If you just stop and think about it for a minute, it makes sense.
I am glad most of my motorcycle engine is made from aluminum. If it were any faster, I would have to install a throttle stop.
Brian

[steelcomp]

I am glad most of my motorcycle engine is made from aluminum. If it were any faster, I would have to install a throttle stop.
BrianMy throttle stops at WFO...or... "uh oh...." :220v:

[wsuwrhr]

My throttle stops at WFO...or... "uh oh...." :220v:
Can you imagine how much faster your motorcycle would be if the motor was made of cast iron?
Brian

[67weimann]

You would do one of these...http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1132confused0068-thumb.gif

[cyclone]

It's not a rumor, it's pretty basic knowledge among people who know what they're doing, and yes, it's been proven. If you just stop and think about it for a minute, it makes sense.
still waiting on that proof, not hearsay.

[Unchained]

Now that I think back about it,
All the guys who ever told me that a cast iron block made more power than an aluminum block................had cast iron blocks.

[NUTHIN]

what blocks do top fuel teams use and why? B.A. teams what do they use? pro stock? nascar? SOME use iron blocks due to rules, or no?
THANKS

[lilrick]

this is gettin' juicy!!

[QuickJet]

what blocks do top fuel teams use and why? B.A. teams what do they use? pro stock? nascar? SOME use iron blocks due to rules, or no?
THANKS
Here's proof that an aluminum block makes more power.
Nuthin's aluminum motor makes over 1,100 hp.
My Iron motor makes 700.
Coincidence? I think NOT!!! :notam:

[NUTHIN]

Here's proof that an aluminum block makes more power.
Nuthin's aluminum motor makes over 1,100 hp.
My Iron motor makes 700.
Coincidence? I think NOT!!! :notam:nah thats just cuz ive got a lil huffer and 100ci more then you :rolleyes: :D but i need all that to beat your flat :cry:
figured its some good questions.. if its just a weight issue and iron makes more hp why arent they using iron blocks and busting up the top speeds records

[QuickJet]

nah thats just cuz ive got a lil huffer and 100ci more then you :rolleyes: :D but i need all that to beat your flat :cry:
figured its some good questions.. if its just a weight issue and iron makes more hp why arent they using iron blocks and busting up the top speeds records
Because the weight savings of the aluminum over the Iron outweighs the hp loss. 50 hp (and I'm sure that's a bit extreme not average) cannot make up for the extra 200 lbs. Especially in a car, where front to rear weight ratios are extremely important.

[WannabeRacing]

Started in the Nascar and NHRA pro stock wars.
You cannot make as much power with a standard aluminum block that you can with a cast iron block. The block will not stay as true and rigid. The movement represents lost energy. People that will agree:
Warren Johnson
David Reher
Grumpy Jenkins
John Lingenfelter
John Kasse
Steve Schmidt
Sonny Leonard
And tons more that have the testing data, and threw it away after learning that lesson.
With some of the new blocks especially with the new billet blocks, you can make much closer to what a cast iron deal can. The forged blocks rather than cast started in this direction, and billet finished it off.
But in the world of NHRA pro stock back in the day, they had to weigh a certain amount, so there was no help for running an aluminum block. They had to add the weight they lost right back again. And in about the same place as the block sat, so there was no advantage to aluminum. Now the rules state you have to have the right casting number of block in your car, and the casting numbers are all iron blocks, so it is much more tradition and rules. Same with nascar.
But with us on the river, where there is no minimum weight limit, we can easily see an advantage even though the power is not equal.
The top alcohol and top fuel teams run aluminum for a few reasons. One is the rules say you have to. NExt is repairability. When you blow up a cast iron block like these teams do, it is toast, where an aluminum block can be windowed, welded up and re-machined to run for years to come. Also, it is nice to get some of the shock absorbtion an aluminum block gives in an engine that runs like the nitro engines do. (Even though it is not a consideration; almost every nitro and alcohol team could not go under wieght with their aluminum blocks, much less a cast iron one.)

[NUTHIN]

Started in the Nascar and NHRA pro stock wars.
You cannot make as much power with a standard aluminum block that you can with a cast iron block. The block will not stay as true and rigid. The movement represents lost energy. People that will agree:
Warren Johnson
David Reher
Grumpy Jenkins
John Lingenfelter
John Kasse
Steve Schmidt
Sonny Leonard
And tons more that have the testing data, and threw it away after learning that lesson.
With some of the new blocks especially with the new billet blocks, you can make much closer to what a cast iron deal can. The forged blocks rather than cast started in this direction, and billet finished it off.
But in the world of NHRA pro stock back in the day, they had to weigh a certain amount, so there was no help for running an aluminum block. They had to add the weight they lost right back again. And in about the same place as the block sat, so there was no advantage to aluminum. Now the rules state you have to have the right casting number of block in your car, and the casting numbers are all iron blocks, so it is much more tradition and rules. Same with nascar.
But with us on the river, where there is no minimum weight limit, we can easily see an advantage even though the power is not equal.
The top alcohol and top fuel teams run aluminum for a few reasons. One is the rules say you have to. NExt is repairability. When you blow up a cast iron block like these teams do, it is toast, where an aluminum block can be windowed, welded up and re-machined to run for years to come. Also, it is nice to get some of the shock absorbtion an aluminum block gives in an engine that runs like the nitro engines do. (Even though it is not a consideration; almost every nitro and alcohol team could not go under wieght with their aluminum blocks, much less a cast iron one.)good info!! thanks.. i have no reasons for buying an aluminum block.. just sounded good. :D

[cyclone]

good info!! thanks.. i have no reasons for buying an aluminum block.. just sounded good. :D
i'd love to be wrong. i don't have problem with that. In the end being wrong about this isn't a huge deal to me. I'd rather learn something and be wrong about it. But i have a problem with this statement:
"And tons more that have the testing data, and threw it away after learning that lesson"
no builder worth his salt throws away test data.
like i said before, don't tell me someone told you an aluminum block makes less power, show me.
still waiting on the proof and not a pissing match...

[wsuwrhr]

Who cares Cyclone?
50 less HP was the last on my list when I ponied up for my block.
I don't even know if it made the list.
Brian
i'd love to be wrong. i don't have problem with that. In the end being wrong about this isn't a huge deal to me. I'd rather learn something and be wrong about it. But i have a problem with this statement:
"And tons more that have the testing data, and threw it away after learning that lesson"
no builder worth his salt throws away test data.
like i said before, don't tell me someone told you an aluminum block makes less power, show me.
still waiting on the proof and not a pissing match...

[NUTHIN]

i'd love to be wrong. i don't have problem with that. In the end being wrong about this isn't a huge deal to me. I'd rather learn something and be wrong about it. But i have a problem with this statement:
"And tons more that have the testing data, and threw it away after learning that lesson"
no builder worth his salt throws away test data.
like i said before, don't tell me someone told you an aluminum block makes less power, show me.
still waiting on the proof and not a pissing match...yeah i liked the explanation to my questions.. but ide like to see data also.
or even if someone has same mtr as myself but iron to compare dyno info!!

[WannabeRacing]

I guess my wife is right. I am not worth my salt.
When I learn something so violently that it is branded on my brain, I leave the data that did the branding behind. I test to learn, not to accumulate data.

[Unchained]

How about if you compare the rigidity of a cast iron V block to an aluminum Y block ?
A blanket statement can't cover all the variables.
I agree with the statement of wishuwashr, " 50 less HP was the last on my list when I ponied up for my block"

[cyclone]

How about if you compare the rigidity of a cast iron V block to an aluminum Y block ?
A blanket statement can't cover all the variables.
I agree with the statement of wishuwashr, " 50 less HP was the last on my list when I ponied up for my block"
for me its not so much about the power as it is learning something new. If its true then great. I just want to see the proof. At the very least id like to see the testing parameters and how it was determined that an iron block makes x amount power less than a comparable aluminum block.

[cyclone]

I guess my wife is right. I am not worth my salt.
When I learn something so violently that it is branded on my brain, I leave the data that did the branding behind. I test to learn, not to accumulate data.
i find it hard to believe than any human can remember every last detail forever. I keep the dyno sheets from all my testing so that i can refer back to them later on. no way am I going to remember every bit of data from every dyno pull i've ever made. What was the water temp or barometric pressure during that one pull i made on that one motor 4 years ago? i dont remember but i can find out.
I think that if someone went through the trouble and expense of assembling two exact same motors using the same prep methods and different blocks that they'd hold onto that kind of information. seems rather valuable to me. Besides down the road you might think of something you hadn't thought of during that test and want to refer back to it.
again, i'm not trying to get into a pissing match i just want someone to show me the test and results cause i'd love to see them.

[steelcomp]

i find it hard to believe than any human can remember every last detail forever. I keep the dyno sheets from all my testing so that i can refer back to them later on. no way am I going to remember every bit of data from every dyno pull i've ever made. What was the water temp or barometric pressure during that one pull i made on that one motor 4 years ago? i dont remember but i can find out.
I think that if someone went through the trouble and expense of assembling two exact same motors using the same prep methods and different blocks that they'd hold onto that kind of information. seems rather valuable to me. Besides down the road you might think of something you hadn't thought of during that test and want to refer back to it.
again, i'm not trying to get into a pissing match i just want someone to show me the test and results cause i'd love to see them.
You don't have to look at a birds nest to know that it won't hold water, just the same as you don't have to compare exact motors to know the alum one will lose hp over the iron one. You're coming from the mentality of someone who'se built what, maybe ten motors? OK...twenty. I can see how you can think that saving all that info can be valuable. You haven't been doing this long enough, or done enough of it to get the repetition of results that dosen't need to be saved for comparison. Certain things just become obvious over thirty and forth years of nothing but hard core race engine building. You say you'd love to see test results...If you really want to know if it's true or not, the info is out there...go find it, and quit saying it's BS just 'cause someone dosen't bring it to you on a silver platter. OR- just go on believing it's not the case and then every time it comes up you can have your pissing match.

[cyclone]

You don't have to look at a birds nest to know that it won't hold water, just the same as you don't have to compare exact motors to know the alum one will lose hp over the iron one. You're coming from the mentality of someone who'se built what, maybe ten motors? OK...twenty. I can see how you can think that saving all that info can be valuable. You haven't been doing this long enough, or done enough of it to get the repetition of results that dosen't need to be saved for comparison. Certain things just become obvious over thirty and forth years of nothing but hard core race engine building. You say you'd love to see test results...If you really want to know if it's true or not, the info is out there...go find it, and quit saying it's BS just 'cause someone dosen't bring it to you on a silver platter. OR- just go on believing it's not the case and then every time it comes up you can have your pissing match.
The fact that i have little engine building experience has nothing to do with me asking for the answer to a question. What? I'm just supposed to believe what you type here because your engine builder said its so or because you've built more engines that me?
c'mon. you aren't gonna convince me of anything like that chief. Don't get angry, just back up what you're claiming. Being wrong about this isn't going to ruin my day. I'd just like to see the proof you're so sure of.

[67weimann]

What's 50 hp compared to 200lbs ? I'll take the less weight over 50 more ponies... :crossx: :crossx:

[steelcomp]

What's 50 hp compared to 200lbs ? I'll take the less weight over 50 more ponies... :crossx: :crossx:Not in Pro Stock you wouldn't. That's the point...it's been gone over...what, you thing guys with unlimited budgets didn't think of this like, twenty years ago or more?
You ever wonder why there's so much more material in a pro stock block than say, even a bowtie block? How abouot a big M? Dart? You look at the comparison between the beefiest aftermarket block, and compare it to a Pro Stock block and you'll see what I'm talking about. They want unlimited rigidity...the kind that calls for 9 cam bearings, just as an example. (latest DRCE block) If weight was as important as you think, they'd be running the lightest cast iron blocks they could find, (because of rules) which are still more rigid than most aluminum blocks, since most aluminum blocks are just the same casting, only aluminum, with a few re-enforcements here and there. Not the case, is it. Even back in the 70's, Roush was importing Austrailian Cleveland blocks because they were thicker, and not just the cylinders.
Cyclone,
I was involved in a test when I was at Dart, working with Rich Maskin when he developed the Rocket small block. Now mind you, I'll admit this wasn't alum against iron, but it was a clear reflection on the difference block rigidity makes when developing hp. We built two identical 400ci small blocks...one with a bowtie block, and the other with the new Rocket block. As identical as possible. same bore, same stroke, used the same set of heads and cam on each motor, same intake and carb, etc. If I remember correctly, the Rocket block made 35 hp more than the bowtie block, purely due to the increased rigidity of the block. Better ring sealing, better cam communication, better everything. I really don't care what you believe, nor am I going to waste a whole lot of time trying to educate you. I've been there, done that, and it's old news. Certain things are just obvious, although I understand wanting proof. Like I said, it's out there...if you really want it, go find it yourself. I wouldn't expect you or anyone else to take my word for anything.

[wsuwrhr]

Steelcomp,
I remember when the rocket block came out, that thing is a beast. Almost as heavy as my 440 RB Y Blocks.
I am of the school that you are 100% correct, for all those reasons.
If nothing else, holding a bore as round as it can be is where the most power will be made.
I don't know why Cyclone seems to be agitated, but like I said, when I bought my block 50 HP less wasn't even on my list.
My motor will never be used for competive racing where the last 10% of power is important.
Thanks for your insight.
Brian
the Rocket block made 35 hp more than the bowtie block, purely due to the increased rigidity of the block. Better ring sealing, better cam communication, better everything.

[NUTHIN]

--i could of saved 3k bucks :frown:

[wsuwrhr]

--i could of saved 3k bucks :frown:
Don't think like that.
Money well spent.
Brian

[NUTHIN]

Don't think like that.
Money well spent.
Brian
looks kool too!! but still..

[steelcomp]

Steelcomp,
I remember when the rocket block came out, that thing is a beast. Almost as heavy as my 440 RB Y Blocks.
I am of the school that you are 100% correct, for all those reasons.
If nothing else, holding a bore as round as it can be is where the most power will be made.
I don't know why Cyclone seems to be agitated, but like I said, when I bought my block 50 HP less wasn't even on my list.
My motor will never be used for competive racing where the last 10% of power is important.
Thanks for your insight.
BrianI'm not arguing the benefits of aluminum blocks...if there weren't any, no one would race them. LIke you said, if you're not trying to extract every last bit of power from your deal, then you aren't going to see the difference (or arent concerned about it) but the point remains that, as a flat statement of fact, an aluminum block will not make the same hp as an equivalent cast iron block. You're right about bores not staying round, and that's a big factor, but the heat expansion of aluminum in general...the deck height change, the sleeves moving in the bores, the seal between the heads and block, the movement in the cam bores, lifter alignment, crank alignment...all these things when allowed to move, even a little, will effect hp. Small engines like motorcycle engines can be so over-engineered that they can eliminate a lot of this. F1 engines are stressed members of the car's actual construction and are over-engineered as well, yet even there, the idea of cast iron blocks has been talked about because of it's power potential. Unfortunately, the CG rules won't allow it. IN their case, they'd gladly have the extra weight where it would significantly lower the CG. They'd lose it in other places, and the car would take another huge step in handling and cornering, and in accelration. Computations have been made in Pro Stock to compare the acceleration between the light weight, but less power of the alum. block vs. the heavier, but more powerful iron. The iron won. (There are enough of both types of motors out there to make legitimate comparisons on power without having to build back-to back purpose-specific engines)

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Dayum its getting warm in here:D Good info fellas;)

[LakesOnly]

What's 50 hp compared to 200lbs ? I'll take the less weight over 50 more ponies... :crossx: :crossx:Generally speaking, in Pro Stock less than a 20HP difference will be a 100% worthless engine.
But I digress...Weiman, your original question in this thread was what the advantages were in a JET BOAT. I'm curious: what specifically are you building that is cause for you to consider an aluminum block and pose this question? Please be more specific in this regard and then maybe your inquiry will have a more focused light shed upon it, in the form of Jet Boat related replies.
LO

[LakesOnly]

You look at the comparison between the beefiest aftermarket block, and compare it to a Pro Stock block and you'll see what I'm talking about. They want unlimited rigidity...the kind that calls for 9 cam bearings, just as an example. (latest DRCE block)...Comp (and BRIAN),
I was speaking with 058 just last night and he was telling me about the new Pro Stock Dodge blocks he happened across at a machine shop here in NorCal that were delivered pretty much just for Rockwell testing. Nine 62mm cam journals completely enclosed from the crank; the crankcase itself designed so as to "wall off" each crank throw from the adjacent ones and keep them all in separate crankcases, in effect, and then use a 5-stage accordingly; tiny main journals; 1" lifter bores; and a block so shiney that the amount of nickel and tin or whatever it was made of that...well, the Rockwell testing across the block was deemed the most consistent material they had never tested. He felt the design of these blocks completely dated the DRCE engine. Sorry, no pics...wish I saw it myself....
LO

[cyclone]

Steelcomp,
I remember when the rocket block came out, that thing is a beast. Almost as heavy as my 440 RB Y Blocks.
I am of the school that you are 100% correct, for all those reasons.
If nothing else, holding a bore as round as it can be is where the most power will be made.
I don't know why Cyclone seems to be agitated, but like I said, when I bought my block 50 HP less wasn't even on my list.
My motor will never be used for competive racing where the last 10% of power is important.
Thanks for your insight.
Brian
Actually brian i'm not agitated. i just don't take everything i read or hear as fact. does most of what's been said here sound like good common sense? sure. does that make it fact? nope.
questions lead to answers and progress...all i asked for was a little proof,to what was being touted as facts, not comparisons between pro stock engines and jet boat engines or what dart did with an iron block back in the day.
ah its a dead horse so...

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Comp (and BRIAN),
I was speaking with 058 just last night and he was telling me about the new Pro Stock Dodge blocks he happened across at a machine shop here in NorCal that were delivered pretty much just for Rockwell testing. Nine 62mm cam journals completely enclosed from the crank; the crankcase itself designed so as to "wall off" each crank throw from the adjacent ones and keep them all in separate crankcases, in effect, and then use a 5-stage accordingly; tiny main journals; 1" lifter bores; and a block so shiney that the amount of nickel and tin or whatever it was made of that...well, the Rockwell testing across the block was deemed the most consistent material they had never tested. He felt the design of these blocks completely dated the DRCE engine. Sorry, no pics...wish I saw it myself....
LO
Wow LO, that is one serious casting there. Should be just about as stiff as it is possible to get in Al. That sure would have been cool to get to eyeball in person. :boxed:

[67weimann]

But I digress...Weiman, your original question in this thread was what the advantages were in a JET BOAT. I'm curious: what specifically are you building that is cause for you to consider an aluminum block and pose this question? Please be more specific in this regard and then maybe your inquiry will have a more focused light shed upon it, in the form of Jet Boat related replies.
LO
Oh nothing special, just tossing around the idea of building an aluminum block for weight savings and COOL factor. I'm only looking to build around 500 HP. 75 MPH is my ultimate goal. I've been thinking about an all aluminum 406 SBC...

[wsuwrhr]

For 500HP you could build a practically stock big block nowadays.
5 large for a block, 500HP, why would you even consider aluminum?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
In a fiberglass hull, I don't think 75MPH would be feasable with a smallblock, just not enough torque.
Brian
Oh nothing special, just tossing around the idea of building an aluminum block for weight savings and COOL factor. I'm only looking to build around 500 HP. 75 MPH is my ultimate goal. I've been thinking about an all aluminum 406 SBC...

[wsuwrhr]

Whaaat??????????????????
He is running a fiberglass hull.
I was thinking it and didn't type it.
Aluminum hulls haven't caught on down here...yet.
Brian

[WannabeRacing]

Found a couple of interesting technical points from Warren Johnson on the whys of aluminum blocks making less power.
"From the standpoint of power, I give the nod to iron. Most aluminum blocks have ferrous cylinder liners that provide a surface that is compatible with pistons skirts and compression rings. (High silicon aluminum alloys and plated bores have been used instead of conventional sleeves, but these linerless aluminum blocks are expensive and realtively rare in racing.) The chief shortcoming of an aluminum block with dry cylinder sleeves is inconsistant piston ring seal produced by the difference in the expension rates of the aluminum block and iron sleeves.
The siamesed cylinders that are commonly found in aluminum blocks prevent coolant from circulating freely around the cylinder barrels. The resulting variations in cylinder wall temeratures along with the dissimilarities in expansion rates make it very difficult to achieve straight round cylinder walls in an aluminum block.
Another consideration is the difference in the rate of thermal expansion between an aluminum block and a steel crankshaft. An aluminum block grows at approximately twice the rate that the crankshaft does, creating a potention misalignment at high temeratures. In addition the bearing clearances and valve lash also change significantly as the block temperature rises. We see a measurable change in the valve lash with aluminum heads between the time the lash is initially set when the engine is cold and after it has been warmed up. An aluminum block only exacerbates this situation."
And this gem from WJ:
"it drove Bill Jenkins crazy that we could make decent power with an aluminum block , but 'grumpy' didn't know about those extra thick cylinder sleeves."
Hope this helps.

[67weimann]

Yeah, I know I could build 500 ponies relatively easy with a BIG block but what does a cast iron BB weigh compared to an all aluminum SB...So wouldn't it help to make 500+ with an aluminum small block versus an iron big block. We're talking like a few hundred lbs aren't we? The old power to weight ratio. Does this come in to play in a jet?
So if you say a glass hull won't run 75 with a small block but an alloy hull will, is this a weight issue? So if I lose a good portion of weight by using an aluminum block does this not help me get closer to be on par with the weight of an alloy hull?

[67weimann]

FYI...with just the rock grate versus my old loader, I GAINED .4 MPH GPS'd...nothing to brag about but I can say for what it is right now, a rock grate is all I need currently.

[steelcomp]

When was the last time you heard of any hull running 115 +/- with just a rock grate? Yeah, but in how many miles does it take you to get there? :rollside: How many alum boats can run 115 +/- in <1000'?
As far as small block vs, big block, 500 hp is 500 hp...given the same rpm, the pump has no idea weather it's a big block or small block. The weight would be the advantage there.
To me, aluminum or glass as a surface makes no difference...given the same weight and design, the boat's bottom will dictate it's performance. I'd say that if the glass hull isn't designed to handle the power, it'll flex, and lose performance. This is one area where I see the aluminum construction has the advantage. Strength over weight. If the glass (or composite) is designed properly, it'll do the same job in performance. Durability is obviously another factor. Not too many glass boats are going to survive too many sandbar and/or log jumps, but there are some glass drag boats that handle 1500+ hp, and weigh in the 300 lb. range.
It would be real interesting to see one of the alum. boat mfgr's come up with a real light weight boat based on a drag racing platform. Something like a 275# CP Tunnel (18') or even a picklefork like a Daytona. I think contouring the intake opening would be the challange, but nothing that couldn't be done on a Pullmax or english wheel.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

FYI...with just the rock grate versus my old loader, I GAINED .4 MPH GPS'd...nothing to brag about but I can say for what it is right now, a rock grate is all I need currently.
Please post this in the just jets section;)

[steelcomp]

Found a couple of interesting technical points from Warren Johnson on the whys of aluminum blocks making less power.
"From the standpoint of power, I give the nod to iron. Most aluminum blocks have ferrous cylinder liners that provide a surface that is compatible with pistons skirts and compression rings. (High silicon aluminum alloys and plated bores have been used instead of conventional sleeves, but these linerless aluminum blocks are expensive and realtively rare in racing.) The chief shortcoming of an aluminum block with dry cylinder sleeves is inconsistant piston ring seal produced by the difference in the expension rates of the aluminum block and iron sleeves.
The siamesed cylinders that are commonly found in aluminum blocks prevent coolant from circulating freely around the cylinder barrels. The resulting variations in cylinder wall temeratures along with the dissimilarities in expansion rates make it very difficult to achieve straight round cylinder walls in an aluminum block.
Another consideration is the difference in the rate of thermal expansion between an aluminum block and a steel crankshaft. An aluminum block grows at approximately twice the rate that the crankshaft does, creating a potention misalignment at high temeratures. In addition the bearing clearances and valve lash also change significantly as the block temperature rises. We see a measurable change in the valve lash with aluminum heads between the time the lash is initially set when the engine is cold and after it has been warmed up. An aluminum block only exacerbates this situation."
And this gem from WJ:
"it drove Bill Jenkins crazy that we could make decent power with an aluminum block , but 'grumpy' didn't know about those extra thick cylinder sleeves."
Hope this helps.
steelcomp:but the point remains that, as a flat statement of fact, an aluminum block will not make the same hp as an equivalent cast iron block. You're right about bores not staying round, and that's a big factor, but the heat expansion of aluminum in general...the deck height change, the sleeves moving in the bores, the seal between the heads and block, the movement in the cam bores, lifter alignment, crank alignment...all these things when allowed to move, even a little, will effect hp. Freekin WJ, readin' my posts again. Lurkers!! :rolleyes: :D

[Cs19]

Found a couple of interesting technical points from Warren Johnson on the whys of aluminum blocks making less power.
"From the standpoint of power, I give the nod to iron. Most aluminum blocks have ferrous cylinder liners that provide a surface that is compatible with pistons skirts and compression rings. (High silicon aluminum alloys and plated bores have been used instead of conventional sleeves, but these linerless aluminum blocks are expensive and realtively rare in racing.) The chief shortcoming of an aluminum block with dry cylinder sleeves is inconsistant piston ring seal produced by the difference in the expension rates of the aluminum block and iron sleeves.
The siamesed cylinders that are commonly found in aluminum blocks prevent coolant from circulating freely around the cylinder barrels. The resulting variations in cylinder wall temeratures along with the dissimilarities in expansion rates make it very difficult to achieve straight round cylinder walls in an aluminum block.
Another consideration is the difference in the rate of thermal expansion between an aluminum block and a steel crankshaft. An aluminum block grows at approximately twice the rate that the crankshaft does, creating a potention misalignment at high temeratures. In addition the bearing clearances and valve lash also change significantly as the block temperature rises. We see a measurable change in the valve lash with aluminum heads between the time the lash is initially set when the engine is cold and after it has been warmed up. An aluminum block only exacerbates this situation."
nuff said...
cyclone prolly still aint buyin it though. :)

[wsuwrhr]

nuff said...
cyclone prolly still aint buyin it though. :)
...and I can't wait to finish my alloy motor either. I am not scared.
Brian

[steelcomp]

nuff said...
cyclone prolly still aint buyin it though. :)
Ya hear that...nuff said, already. CS said so.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

i didnt read all the psts..i can tell you this...we ran a alum rodeck in a promod car and it ran slower with the same tuneup as a drce iron block......better ring seal and consistcie?lol....

[bordsmnj]

it sounds to me like this discusion is about an aluminum block in a drag racing environement. what do you all think of using a big inch alum block for indurance type racing in a boat? say 6000 rpm and under? thanks -jas

[wsuwrhr]

It is all in what you want to spend your money on BordsMJ.
Brian
it sounds to me like this discusion is about an aluminum block in a drag racing environement. what do you all think of using a big inch alum block for indurance type racing in a boat? say 6000 rpm and under? thanks -jas

[steelcomp]

it sounds to me like this discusion is about an aluminum block in a drag racing environement. what do you all think of using a big inch alum block for indurance type racing in a boat? say 6000 rpm and under? thanks -jasProbably one of the best uses for an alum. block.

[bordsmnj]

that's good to hear. they are definantly not cheap. :boxed: that's all i know.

[wsuwrhr]

ACTUALLY,
If you read through the thread.....
They aren't THAT expensive when you compare the cost of turning a core motor, or your used up motor, into a finished machined peice.
With almost unlimited repairability and replaceable sleeves it may be the last block you will have to buy.
Brian
that's good to hear. they are definantly not cheap. :boxed: that's all i know.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

ACTUALLY,
If you read through the thread.....
They aren't THAT expensive when you compare the cost of turning a core motor, or your used up motor, into a finished machined peice.
With almost unlimited repairability and replaceable sleeves it may be the last block you will have to buy.
Brian
i agree...and aslong as your good with a tig welder,...... :p

[bordsmnj]

yeah, i'm aware of that, Brain. but what i'm concerned with is function. would i loose a bunch of hp all the time? would it justify the 150-200 lbs off the back end of the boat? are the cylinders gonna get all outa shape and need bored and honed all the time? would it be stiff enough for the torque that a 600+cu. motor makes? just curious.

[wsuwrhr]

In my opinion the alloy block WILL not make as much power as an iron block, for all of the reasons mentioned here.
I don't think a reasonable arguement can be made that aluminum is as rigid as iron, period.
A block needs to be rigid to keep the bores round and the crank straight.
An alloy block is not good you ARE looking for the upper 10% of power from a given displacement, important in class racing for example. I don't think a quality motor built to make power, either out of aluminum or iron will have any noticeable difference in power.
Brian
yeah, i'm aware of that, Brain. but what i'm concerned with is function. would i loose a bunch of hp all the time? would it justify the 150-200 lbs off the back end of the boat? are the cylinders gonna get all outa shape and need bored and honed all the time? would it be stiff enough for the torque that a 600+cu. motor makes? just curious.

[wsuwrhr]

Weight is the real issue here.
Brian
yeah, i'm aware of that, Brain. but what i'm concerned with is function. would i loose a bunch of hp all the time? would it justify the 150-200 lbs off the back end of the boat? are the cylinders gonna get all outa shape and need bored and honed all the time? would it be stiff enough for the torque that a 600+cu. motor makes? just curious.

[cyclone]

In my opinion the alloy block WILL not make as much power as an iron block, for all of the reasons mentioned here.
I don't think a reasonable arguement can be made that aluminum is as rigid as iron, period.
A block needs to be rigid to keep the bores round and the crank straight.
An alloy block is not good you ARE looking for the upper 10% of power from a given displacement, important in class racing for example. I don't think a quality motor built to make power, either out of aluminum or iron will have any noticeable difference in power.
Brian
Here is where i think things get skewed a bit much. 10%? that'd be giving up 100 hp to an iron block on a 1000 hp engine. I can see giving 30-50hp to the iron block engine but not 100 hp. I think that's an overestimation.
and unless your last name is Line or Anderson, 50hp isn't going to matter much at the lake so the weight savings more than makes up for it.

[SUI-CY-COLE]

Here is where i think things get skewed a bit much. 10%? that'd be giving up 100 hp to an iron block on a 1000 hp engine. I can see giving 30-50hp to the iron block engine but not 100 hp. I think that's an overestimation.
and unless your last name is Line or Anderson, 50hp isn't going to matter much at the lake so the weight savings more than makes up for it.
does line or anderson go to the lake?.....50 hp..is alot!

[Racer277]

does line or anderson go to the lake?.....50 hp..is alot!
Anderson's motors do....
I know of a small block powered (fiberglass) jet boat that goes well into the 90's, or am I missing something there?
I know you LL guys have seen it plenty...

[cyclone]

does line or anderson go to the lake?.....50 hp..is alot!
50HP is a lot. but losing 150 pounds is worth more in terms of quickness.
i did a test at the races where I pulled interior pieces out of my boat that i had weighed at home. yanking the coctail seats out of the boat (they weighed 130 pounds) dropped my ET by 3/10th's of a second. As you know, picking up 3/10's at the track is a pretty big gain. doubt i could add 50 ponies and gain that much in ET.

[motormonkey]

You cant compare cars to boats. A boat rides in the water and the car rolls on pavement. The weight savings in a boat will far out perfom the h/p lost. I wouldnt tell the ls1 guys al. sucks as they are getting 900 rear wheel h/p turbod out of stock blocks. As far as piston ring seal in a boat is a joke. Hot pistons and rings to colder walls isnt all that good. Their is a few drag boats that run al. blocks and kicked ass. I know of a hydro that dropped some et going to al. heads of equal flow that was droping a little power on the dyno.

[Cs19]

Here is where i think things get skewed a bit much. 10%? that'd be giving up 100 hp to an iron block on a 1000 hp engine. I can see giving 30-50hp to the iron block engine but not 100 hp. I think that's an overestimation.
and unless your last name is Line or Anderson, 50hp isn't going to matter much at the lake so the weight savings more than makes up for it.
Good post, at first I thought your were arguing what you just posted.
Does this mean your not agitated anymore? damn!

[wsuwrhr]

Here is where i think things get skewed a bit much. 10%? that'd be giving up 100 hp to an iron block on a 1000 hp engine. I can see giving 30-50hp to the iron block engine but not 100 hp. I think that's an overestimation.
and unless your last name is Line or Anderson, 50hp isn't going to matter much at the lake so the weight savings more than makes up for it.
No sir, I am not talking about 10% of power loss. I am talking about building engines to a class limit, where RULES dictate what parts can be used or not. When an engine is built to make optimum MAX power, I mean when 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 HP is light years ahead of the other guy.
When building a motor from stock, the first 100 or 200 HP costs X amount, $5-6-7000, anyone can do it buy buying parts from a catalog. But to get the last 50HP or so costs two or three times the amount as the first figure. You know what I mean?
Brian

[cyclone]

i think if you're building a class motor for a super competitive nhra class then yeah, every little bit counts. but for a boat i still say the weight savings is worth whatever power you may be giving up.

[cyclone]

Good post, at first I thought your were arguing what you just posted.
Does this mean your not agitated anymore? damn!
i could fake the agitation if you like.

[wsuwrhr]

i think if you're building a class motor for a super competitive nhra class then yeah, every little bit counts. but for a boat i still say the weight savings is worth whatever power you may be giving up.
Exactly my point.
Brian

[ahsumtoy]

I hate to start this thread up again, after it had pretty much run its course...but I have an oportunity to get what could be interesting information. A good friend of mine had Norm Grimes build him an all aluminum, blown-injected gas, small block chevy for his sand car. When Norm dynoed it it had exsessive blowby, which Norm attributed to the aluminum block flexing. My buddy is now buying a cast steel block from Dart and they are going to transfer all of the components from the aluminum block to the steel block, then they will dyno it again. This should give a good comparison between the aluminum and steel blocks. What do you think, interested in the results? Unfortunately, it will probably be a month, or more before we hear anything.

[ahsumtoy]

I'm assuming past the piston rings. I didn't ask, what other blowby is there?

[fc-pilot]

I would love to hear the proven results that they find from this.
Paul

[WannabeRacing]

Bill Mitchell is saying that some of his new castings with re-enforcement webs, thicker castings and better design are starting to make as much in a small block as one of his iron small blocks. Of course, that is not huge cylider pressures, but steps in the right direction. Some of these new castings, and obviously the Forged and billet blocks- are getting really close.

[cyclone]

I hate to start this thread up again, after it had pretty much run its course...but I have an oportunity to get what could be interesting information. A good friend of mine had Norm Grimes build him an all aluminum, blown-injected gas, small block chevy for his sand car. When Norm dynoed it it had exsessive blowby, which Norm attributed to the aluminum block flexing. My buddy is now buying a cast steel block from Dart and they are going to transfer all of the components from the aluminum block to the steel block, then they will dyno it again. This should give a good comparison between the aluminum and steel blocks. What do you think, interested in the results? Unfortunately, it will probably be a month, or more before we hear anything.
Im interested. what kind of aluminum block was it and will the iron block be exactly the same design?
what blowby are you referring to?

[wsuwrhr]

I would definitely interested be interested in the results.
This is by far the closest to a back to back test.
Any chance something is wrong with the alloy block or machining?
I am ass deep in my motor, but it would be interesting to see.
Brian
I hate to start this thread up again, after it had pretty much run its course...but I have an oportunity to get what could be interesting information. A good friend of mine had Norm Grimes build him an all aluminum, blown-injected gas, small block chevy for his sand car. When Norm dynoed it it had exsessive blowby, which Norm attributed to the aluminum block flexing. My buddy is now buying a cast steel block from Dart and they are going to transfer all of the components from the aluminum block to the steel block, then they will dyno it again. This should give a good comparison between the aluminum and steel blocks. What do you think, interested in the results? Unfortunately, it will probably be a month, or more before we hear anything.

[fc-pilot]

If I had to guess, I would say that Norm would have the machine work right. But then again we all make mistakes. Well, everybody but me.
Paul

[wsuwrhr]

Norm does the machine work himself?
I am just asking.
I have heard the name before, but I don't know squat about his operation.
Brian
If I had to guess, I would say that Norm would have the machine work right. But then again we all make mistakes. Well, everybody but me.
Paul

[UBFJ #454]

Re: Norm Grimes
"Jim Whiteley, owner and driver of the YNOT Racing Team Top Alcohol Dragster, is pleased to announce that World Champion Crew Chief, Norm Grimes has agreed to come aboard the YNOT Top Alcohol Dragster Team.
Grimes of Burbank, California, has previously guided Rick Santos to five consecutive World Championships with the Jack O'Bannon owned Oakwood Homes TAD, and has also had a very large hand in the development of rising top fuel star Morgan Lucas, while Lucas was in the alcohol ranks, along with current sensation, Sean O'Bannon who finished number in the nation for 2006. Grimes has also had experience in the fuel ranks, most notably with Jerry Toliver, in the Toyota Funny Car.
YNOT Team Owner Jim Whiteley of Grand Junction, Colorado said "Needless to say I'm thrilled about the addition of Norm to the team. This is our first year in the alcohol ranks, and being able to compete in the very tough Lucas Oil Drag Racing Series, in Division Seven and ending up number four in points is a testament to the talent of this team. We have a very good base line and now with the addition of Norm Grimes, as well as Alan Russell, who has stood side by side for many years with Norm. This should put us right over the top or right close to it. We want to run for the Championship not only for Division Seven, but eventually for the Lucas Oil Top Alcohol Dragster World Championship. There are some teams from this division, which choose to run away from this division and go to another, to increase their chances of winning. We feel it is better to stay here and judge ourselves against the very best."
The team plans to test extensively at the two Las Vegas Test Sessions and the one in Phoenix, before heading to Pomona and the season opener."

[Cs19]

Grimes is the man..Ive never had the chance to meet him but Ive heard alot about him and all the sucess hes had over the years. He sure did a heckuva job last season with Obannon's team. Im told he was out at The Cp regatta and a few races at Ming last season, thought that was pretty cool to hear a guy thats tottally buried as a crew chief in asphalt racing still makes it out to watch some jetboats run.:D
Here is an old pic of Grimes and Shoemaker when they raced Eliminator Daytonas..I'm told they were sponsored my Elim. boats at the time, their team was called Dash for Cash.:)
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/409Norm_Greg_1982_sml.jpg

[Cs19]

I got a little carried away there, anyways please keep us posted on that sandcar engine, very interesting!!!

[67weimann]

Yeah, I want to know what the results are...Keep us posted...

[ahsumtoy]

Regarding your question about blowby, I didn't ask were the blowby was as I assumed there was only one form of blowby. My understanding is that blowby is caused by high cylinder pressure causing leaking past the rings. This puts pressure in the block and causes excess air and oil to come out the breathers. Maybe someone else can do a better job explaining it than me. If there are other forms of blowby, I'd be interested to know what they are??
Regarding the aluminum block, I believe it is also a Dart block. I think the bore is 4.300". My friend says they think the sleeves are to thin to give the proper support in the aluminum block. The cast iron block he's getting is a Dart and it's suppose to have much thicker sleeves.

[ahsumtoy]

Just wanted to mention that the aluminum block was used and supplied by my friend to Norm. I don't want people to think Norm screwed up, he is the best, and a good guy!

[wsuwrhr]

So, a few months later, just curious of the results.
Brian
I hate to start this thread up again, after it had pretty much run its course...but I have an oportunity to get what could be interesting information. A good friend of mine had Norm Grimes build him an all aluminum, blown-injected gas, small block chevy for his sand car. When Norm dynoed it it had exsessive blowby, which Norm attributed to the aluminum block flexing. My buddy is now buying a cast steel block from Dart and they are going to transfer all of the components from the aluminum block to the steel block, then they will dyno it again. This should give a good comparison between the aluminum and steel blocks. What do you think, interested in the results? Unfortunately, it will probably be a month, or more before we hear anything.

[67weimann]

So, a few months later, just curious of the results.
Tell us already...I can't stand the wait...:D

[ahsumtoy]

The iron block ordered from dart was given the full lightening treatment. When it arrived they noticed that part of the block above the flywheel was removed. Because of the type of transmission being used they have to use a top mount starter, and couldn't use the block as modified. A new block is in route to Grimes now. Norm says he will put it together as soon as it arrives. So, we're still waiting..... I'll post the results as soon as I hear.