Is the 496 worth significant performance investment?

[Decided Advantage]

So I opted for a 496HO / X drive in my new boat. I honesty didn't like the 496 configuration campared with a 502, but without another +$20K, the 496 was best can do.
I get the boat out on the water and love everything accept for the topend performance. So I start looking for anwsers.
I like and want to keep the fresh water cooling. I'd like to run 87 octane accept for days I know I'll be pushing it hard.
I see supercharger kits, and Raylar's packages on the markey for 5 or 6K, or is this case where I'd be asking to much of a GM configuration that I'm already amazed is durable at 5000 rpm.
My dream motor is a low compression, conservative cammed, EFI 572 with a super block with forged internals. My service department has little experience supporting or maintaining modified power. While some education is available that we could invest in, enflicting our learning curve on our customers boats, isn't good for anyone. They are all certified for merc products. The notion of doing supercharger installations in our shop just sounds like a bad idea just waiting to pop.
My question is: Should I just save for the dream engine (and drive) as it will be chaeper than the cost of tweaking then recovering from the resulting mayheim? Or is my opinion of the 496 configuration warpped.
I know some will point to the Raylar race entry and say the 496 is good to go. I'll point out that their 496 isn't the same as the one Merc sold me. It's a purpose built, blueprinted motor that was built for a tuner to demostrate the potential of their products in the narrow confines of the 496 configuration. When compared with other possible configurations the balance of total cost of ownership, performance, and long term reliability may not be competive at all for the 496. Merc certainly hasn't shown any interest in a blue version of the 496.
I really want to prototype a 500-600 HP engine and drive package in my personal boat that I could duplicate for my customers that want more than the 496 but can't justify the additional $ for the 525HP/XR setup. The last thing I need is to have customers coming back with scattered 496s that have no warranty because of performance mods I integrated into the sale. Obviously my tolerance and/or desire to transfer risk to my customers is low.
The bottomline is I'm selling a 496HO/X for roughly 25K, the 525/XR is running around $48K, and I'm looking for a package in the 30K-35K range that will generate attention in the boat shows and put a smile on my customers faces when they are on the water playing with all 496 Mercs.

[Beer-30]

I would have to say the Raylar package is still pretty hard to beat. Especially since it sheds 100 or so pounds.
However. Weak pistons and all, it is still just a big-block Chevy. Everyone knows that a good cam/head/intake combo is the key to any strong motor.
If you want to try a one-off setup on your own, you could try your own combo.
1. Crane and Comp have a nice line-up of cams available for them.
2. I assume you have access to a good, performance oriented machine shop. Go big valves, nice gentle port and bowl cleanup, match springs to cam, roller rockers. I hear the intake ports don't need much work - if any - but the exhaust likes to be opened up.
3. Either work with machine shop on stock intake and make it better. OR, run the Raylar intake or AZ Speed & Marine intake. The bonus to the ASM intake is that it comes with a new ECM and harness so one can tune the fuel and ignition. Working with stock ECM/Raylar - you could only adjust fuel pressure to help with proper mixture. Or, Whipple can re-program a stock HO ECM. Location would be a problem for tuning each individual motor, though.
It would be a tough call, as I think you would only be saving about $1000 by using the stock heads.
If you could get a stock (worked) heads / stock (worked) intake / stock ECM / aftermarket cam setup to achieve your goal - you could probably get away with around $3000 in the package.
Although, you would want to add headers to take advantage of the work, so either way that would add minimum $2000 / maximum $5000 (brand-specific) to any of the combinations.
As long as everything is dialed-in properly and there are no ignition or fuel issues, the pistons seem to handle around 550 normally aspirated hp without incident. Boost seems to be a sure-kill.

[SHOTKALLIN]

Whoever has the answer will be a wealthy man. :D

[TPI]

Save for your dream motor. But start dreaming of superchargers because they are the wave of the future. Its only taken Mercury how many years to sell a screw blown efi? The misconception about servicing these HP supercharged engines is, a service does not include computer mapping. Anyone can change oil, plugs, wires, caps, and rotors, and check the timing (10 degrees on a mefi 4)
THATS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!
If the efi motor was built right, with all of the right parts and sensors, there are no issues or concerns. Drive on and enjoy :)

[Beer-30]

Anyone can change oil, plugs, wires, caps, and rotors, and check the timing (10 degrees on a mefi 4)
THATS ALL THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE!
If the efi motor was built right, with all of the right parts and sensors, there are no issues or concerns. Drive on and enjoy :)
.....and, if you start using coil-per-cylinder, you could knock (no pun intended) two more things off of that list (cap/rotor). Yay though one would still want to check timing to make sure a cam or crank sensor didn't get out of wack. :)

[TPI]

True,
But if you add 8 things(coils) and deduct two(cap and rotor), now you net 6 more things! :crossx: When you are dumb like me, you have to keep things as simple as possible. :)

[Beer-30]

Now, don't start thinking like that, because you could go all day.
Take away 8 injectors and replace with one carb. :yuk:

[TPI]

I hate carbs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I am afraid of them :220v:

[Beer-30]

I hate carbs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I am afraid of them :220v:
I'm not afraid of them, I just hate them.
And, I was not implying that distributors are not adequate. The setup you run is as good as it gets - for a distributor setup.
CPC is to ignition that MPI is to fuel - is what I meant.

[Decided Advantage]

I hate carbs,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I am afraid of them :220v:
LOL!
I agree! But I'm not where I need to be on EFI to be able to pull it off. I need to find some time and
For personal fun and games I can do anything, from a package prospective I'm looking at the emissions laws. It looks like we all be blowing cats come 2008.
The AZ Speed & Marine 572 EFI keeps sticking in my head. http://www.azspeed-marine.com/asminzz.html
What would a marine engine package similar to the AZS&M package be worth to you?
As a replacement for a 496 long block would I be able to transfer the freshwater cooling? I recognize headers would b the way to go, but would the 496 exhuast physically fit?
I don't think the X drive would last long behind a 572, so I'm still looking and considering drive options. I may move my current boat and replace it with a similar unit with an XR and ITs or maybe Checkout Konrad's new Ace drive.
With the Ace at $26K alone And some unique water pickup requirements the cost and extra work mount.
I add up the numbers and while the power would be superior to a 525HP I've missed the cost target.
Maybe a simpler 502/540 EFI configuration in conservative tune
(500 - 575HP) coupled with an out the shelf XR/ITS setup would meet the cost objectives and if the customer wanted more they could go with a supercharger. I'm wondering if this type configuration couldn't be integrated at a cost of $30-35K with a one year warranty. If I could piece this package together I know of other dealers hungry for a solution in this area. I could see this package getting popular for both new and repower.
I have to keep this simple, hit the cost target, and have a warranty in the end. Nothing like a chaalenge! :)

[Raylar]

Decided Advantage:
If you want a clean simple fresh water cooled engine that will run on 89 octane, just send us your 496HO and for some reasonable dollars ( a lot less than you will spend on an equivalent replacement motor)we will send it back to you with an honest 600HP plus! All you do is remove it, ship it and after we reship it to you drop it in and go. we'll take care of the ECM reprogram and add a beautiful set of stainless headers and you'll be done!
We have quite a few of these HO600 Raylar motors around the country and they are all purring along, making big reliable power for their owners. Call me if you like and I'll give you phone numbers of happy owners.
Keep it simple!
Ray @ Raylar

[roln 20s]

I feel ya on this question-- I have an HO in my DCB 26 and obviously want more power, while maintaining the everyday turn key use. I have talked to TPI and Larry Peto--I think I am convinced best buy for the money and power is to have new internals installed in Merc HO, bore it out to a 503 or 505 and add a 2.3 or 3.3 Whipple. This is about a $14K conversion- but you can run between 675-800 hp depending on setup. Personally, I am convinced that new internals and a Whipple supercharger is a great setup. Just think, instead of the big Cubic Inches, you have a a motor that is barely working in the typical cruise range. I'm with TPI on this-- superchargers make great power and run little boost at mild RPMs-- I know Peto has tons of these around the country with ZERO issues.
On the drive, I have heard that the Bravo X is basically the same drive as the older XRs/XZs--- this is just hearsay. Here is my theory-- 700-800 hp, on the gas all day, hard on the throttle-- you will blow any bravo style drive. Might as well just save the coin for the internal upgrades on the drive for later. Peto hasn't been told of any blown drives yet from customers in 2 years of this conversion.
Tough question, would make someone huge bank to solve the issue. Good luck.
Or, forget about the power and go with a saying I heard this weekend: "THe only upgrade to 496s should be Boat Bling covers (www.boatbling.net)."
Roln 20s

[Beer-30]

Decided Advantage:
All you do is remove it, ship it and after we reship it to you drop it in and go. we'll take care of the ECM reprogram and add a beautiful set of stainless headers and you'll be done!
Ray @ Raylar
.....and don't forget to upgrade the fuel system.

[Raylar]

With our mods to the new Mercury cool fuel system we have been able to make 620HP on the dyno just fine and in the boat air/fuel ratios in the high 12's no problem. The old coolfuel system won't do this but the new system is not half bad.
Ray @ Raylar

[Beer-30]

Ah. Last I had heard, 550 was 'bout it. Good news.

[Brian]

...On the drive, I have heard that the Bravo X is basically the same drive as the older XRs/XZs--- this is just hearsay. Here is my theory-- 700-800 hp, on the gas all day, hard on the throttle-- you will blow any bravo style drive...
I have a stock '02 XR that spent 3 years behind an 800 hp n/a 598, and the past 1 year behind a bit "more"... Still babying it hoping to not leave a bunch of parts at the bottom of the lake!
In answer to this thread, I'd have no problem starting with the 496 to build a reliable 600 (or much more) hp motor. Use good parts, good machine work, and some common sense and it will be fine.
:D

[Beer-30]

In answer to this thread, I'd have no problem starting with the 496 to build a reliable 600 (or much more) hp motor. Use good parts, good machine work, and some common sense and it will be fine.
:D
Good post.
Like I said, it just a big-block chevy. It just happens to be the latest version.

[Decided Advantage]

Decided Advantage:
If you want a clean simple fresh water cooled engine that will run on 89 octane, just send us your 496HO and for some reasonable dollars ( a lot less than you will spend on an equivalent replacement motor)we will send it back to you with an honest 600HP plus! All you do is remove it, ship it and after we reship it to you drop it in and go. we'll take care of the ECM reprogram and add a beautiful set of stainless headers and you'll be done!
We have quite a few of these HO600 Raylar motors around the country and they are all purring along, making big reliable power for their owners. Call me if you like and I'll give you phone numbers of happy owners.
Keep it simple!
Ray @ Raylar
Keep in mind, my goal is to spec out and prototype an engine/drive combo that I could drop in some boat builders lap for new boats in the future.
Many boat dealers (including myself) would like a great performance package that fills the void between the HO and the price of a 525HP from merc with a warranty for our customers.
I literally have a boat build on hold waiting for a motor decision that will be going into the Spring boat shows.
The bottom line is the 496HO is the only option offered by the dealers in this neck of the woods. Many of the blue motors stocked are purchased up front to create excitement and give the insiders a benefit for being in the industry. They will be sold with 50-100 hard hours at a loss. Great for boat shows but buyers don't like the cost/value.
Case in point, "Poker Face" all the glitz and some good numbers in the magazines will sell lots of boats. But for the average buyer will that hull have the custom touches or the blue power...Hell no. For that money performance boat buyers won't be looking at Baja.
I gotta have a package that can be ordered, shows up in crates and the riggers can put to the hull of choice.

[Beer-30]

There again: If you are looking to fill the void between, say, a Raylar package and a blue motor - you will have to make it yourself. It can be done, and probably easier than any of us think. You would just stick with the stock heads and find what porting / valves / springs they like. Then match the cam / rockers and do some work to the intake. Lastly, headers and a return line from the fuel rail / delete the lower regulator, and see what it does. It will take some R&D, as it is not going to fall out of the sky right into your hands. All of us want to do it, but it will take the right person that has the time, equipment, and $ to test-teardown-adjust-test.
The clincher would be to find some magic in the stock intake. Yes, the runners are down in the valley where there is heat, but trying to keep costs down would accept such a factor. The stock ECM/programming would be a little closer to dialed-in, since it is already setup for that intake's runner length and velocities. Fuel pressure adjustment would get you pretty close - I would assume. Purely speculation.
AZ Speed & Marine has tickled the stock iron heads (mainly CNC ported the exh), bigger valves, Crane Cam / valvetrain. This, along with their own intake (not the stock one) and MEFI4 ECM, they were seeing 525 HP.

[NOTALENT]

If you decide to go carb and want other options I would look at Steve Schmidt Racing as well....He is one of the best. I have sold a few of his engines for marine use and nothing but good things.
He offers a NA 585 with 980HP & 825lbs of tq for about $27k. One of the Etickets around havasu has these in twins....freakin bitchin. Here is that link:
http://www.steveschmidtracing.com/engines/585-marine-engine.html
He also offers other milder engines.
Definatley worth taking a look at.

[TPI]

All of this sounds so easy. But it all takes so much time. You guys all know the saying about time: "Time is $$$$" The guys at Raylar are obviously working very hard to give the consumer that opted for a 496 another avenue without adding a supercharger or changing the motor entirely. IMO, I think what they are doing with the 496 is a great idea.
Fact: Carb motors in new boats will not sell. At least not in volume. Don't do it.
Also, Since time is money, the only way for you(Decided Advantage) to achieve this goal is to do a motor with Chinese parts :220v: . IE: Eagle, Cat Power, Scat, ect............................almost everyone in the motor industry is doing it because efi motors are a ton of money, period. Especially when you have to provide the customer with a drop in package with all of the accessories. Chinese parts alone won't do it either,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it needs to be Chinese parts in volume. You are going to have to buy a bunch of those imported parts for this thing to be profitable. It sounds like you want it to be profitable, right? Trust me, It's hard to be unique these days and save money at the same time. Good luck with your venture. :)

[Decided Advantage]

All of this sounds so easy. But it all takes so much time. You guys all know the saying about time: "Time is $$$$" The guys at Raylar are obviously working very hard to give the consumer that opted for a 496 another avenue without adding a supercharger or changing the motor entirely. IMO, I think what they are doing with the 496 is a great idea.
Fact: Carb motors in new boats will not sell. At least not in volume. Don't do it.
Also, Since time is money, the only way for you(Decided Advantage) to achieve this goal is to do a motor with Chinese parts :220v: . IE: Eagle, Cat Power, Scat, ect............................almost everyone in the motor industry is doing it because efi motors are a ton of money, period. Especially when you have to provide the customer with a drop in package with all of the accessories. Chinese parts alone won't do it either,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,it needs to be Chinese parts in volume. You are going to have to buy a bunch of those imported parts for this thing to be profitable. It sounds like you want it to be profitable, right? Trust me, It's hard to be unique these days and save money at the same time. Good luck with your venture. :)
There in lies the problem. The Chinese parts have been slipped in on us for years now, most aren't half bad. The takes an pretty experienced engine builder to know which are good and which aren't but a great builder uses the experience, choosed the right parts and has the skill to put them all together in a way that meets the original objectives.
I used to build my own bracket race engines. That makes me an experienced engine builder, the fact that my lowly 12 second cars never held together for more than a single local racing season doesn't demostrate sure doesn't demostrate that I'm a good or great builder.
Maybe The 496HO is the answer and customers that want more can pick their poison and takes their chances with the rest of us. :boxed: I just wish it some forged parts. I can't believe the base package take the abuse I've seen them take stock. So I'm afraid to advocate to the local hot shoes, to modify their new motor (voiding all warranty), and then twist it's tail till it screams. They'll come back wanting the engine warrantied and the holes fixed in the hull where the chunks exited.
BTW Gary, The specs on your 540 EFI have been a long time coming on your web site :)

[TPI]

There in lies the problem. The Chinese parts have been slipped in on us for years now, most aren't half bad. The takes an pretty experienced engine builder to know which are good and which aren't but a great builder uses the experience, choosed the right parts and has the skill to put them all together in a way that meets the original objectives.
I used to build my own bracket race engines. That makes me an experienced engine builder, the fact that my lowly 12 second cars never held together for more than a single local racing season doesn't demostrate sure doesn't demostrate that I'm a good or great builder.
Maybe The 496HO is the answer and customers that want more can pick their poison and takes their chances with the rest of us. :boxed: I just wish it some forged parts. I can't believe the base package take the abuse I've seen them take stock. So I'm afraid to advocate to the local hot shoes, to modify their new motor (voiding all warranty), and then twist it's tail till it screams. They'll come back wanting the engine warrantied and the holes fixed in the hull where the chunks exited.
BTW Gary, The specs on your 540 EFI have been a long time coming on your web site :)
Thats strange, I have always had a list of parts on the site, associated with each engine. :confused:
I usually just change the pictures.

[Beer-30]

Personally, I just see that there are equal amounts of boat-engine people.
Those that want a stocker, untouched, change fluids and run the crap out of it for life.
Those that want the latest, fastest, most efficient top of the line motor to go as fast as they possibly can.
Those that have stock, production power and want to dial it in to the best it can be for however long. Some go overboard and end up replacing. Some do some nice bolt-ons and have a bitchen motor for the life of their boat.
I really feel there is a great market for an in-between on the HO. Raylar has an excellent kit, and are pioneers for being the first. Their kits will continue to sell as long as they make the 8.1. There will always be those that don't want to go that extreme and have access to machine shops and parts to do a combo of their own. All it will take is for the right person to come across the right combo of parts. There are how many thousands of 496s out there?
Like previously mentioned, whoever strikes the good combo and sells it will be very busy.

[92562]

I know that the current 8.1 package was never intended to be a Blue Motor equivalent. Still, I too lamented the cost of an HP525 and a modified HO. Let's not forget that to do it right, you need to add a lot of parts most people don't get with an HO such as: external steering/hydraulic helm, an XR drive, a good shower, tabs. These pieces do not come cheep. Still, that's how I had Howard rig my boat so I could put the blower on myself. I now have 94 trouble free hours but I am also completely anal retentive about details and maybe a little overkill with preventative maintenance. For my application, I know the Whipple/HO package will hold together. I boat mostly with the family on big lakes and needed a higher, reliable cruising speed. Still, I occasionally like to go fast but I know the combination won't take too much abuse. Keep it from detonating and the 8.1 should work just fine. Now, if I were in Florida and used the boat to go to and from the Bahamas, I'd use a different long block.
Just my .02 Good luck!
----Rob