Parque floor

[holorinhal]

Can anyone tell Me what the floor covering in this boat is,where can I get the materials to do the floor and how is it installed.If any one can help I would appreciate it.Thank's .....Hal
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/277400_3.jpg

[Doin' Time]

very nice...im sure that aint no jet boat is it???

[dmontzsta]

There is very thin sheets you can buy, but you have to strip the floor down and it requires some work. Lots of boats actually come with it.

[Konabud]

very nice...im sure that aint no jet boat is it???
Why would you say that? :idea:

[holorinhal]

Yes Guy's this is a jet boat. I have seen this floor in several boats and have always wonderd how it is done.I think it makes an awesome looking floor.Click on this link http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/COLE-T-DECK-JET-BOAT-RARE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ80653QQitemZ460713 6140QQrdZ1,or check out the "this boat sure is purrdy"thread,posted today by 396.

[beerjet]

very nice...im sure that aint no jet boat is it???
its a good thing your sure it aint no jet boat or are you ?

[olbiezer]

its a jetboat all right.....its bulsa wood and not too many jets have it........i had a biesemeyer jet that had it......only other jet i ever saw with it.........

[flat broke]

The wood is typically balsa. The idea (when used for actual boat construction as opposed to ornamental work) is that balsa will provide rigidity at a lower weight than layer after layer of glass. The way this is achieved is by utilizing the wood's grain structure to provide the strength, then encapsulate it in glass to maintain it's integrity. Imagine a long piece of lumber (balsa in this case) with the grain running the length of the stock. You then start cutting slices off the stock. This creates lots of little pannels with the grain standing vertically in the piece. If youve worked with wood, you know that the material is far stronger when the load is applied with the grain as opposed to perpendicular to the grain. These small panels are then laid out on a mat of some sort and bonded down so that you basically get sheets of the material.
When used for the application it was designed and with the appropriate amount of resin, balsa coring will provide a significant increase in rigidity at a lower weight than layer upon layer of glass. The downside? That nice top coat you see has to be maintained, and you have to take care when rigging not to leave any of the balsa exposed to the elements. The stuff is very porous (hence it's light weight) and as such is a magnet for water.
I'm not a pro, so hopefully Billy, Todd, Futs, FourQ or someone else will chime in to correct me, or enhance the following. First you would make sure that the surface you will be applying the material to is flat, clean, and properly prepped. Then lay down a layer of resin (maybe with cloth or mat, I'm not sure) then lay down the coring material. Laminate that with glass and resin (check with a pro on what weight of material etc). Last prepare the surface (sand smooth etc.) for your top coat. From what I understand, Duratec/Duratec with gel, flowcoat, and clear gel can be used to create the final layer that will be seen and felt. That's then sanded and buffed to the finish you see in the pictue above.
The base material isn't cheap, you'll be into it for many hours of work (sanding), and when it's all said and done, you'll be adding more weight to your boat, which usually degrades performance in one area or another. The amount of care that must be taken not to scratch the floor etc. would definitely detract from the usability of a "lake boat". The stuff looks cool as hell, and when incorporated into the lamination schedule as part of the design/build is very functional.
As for whether or not that's a jet boat or a V'drive, I don't see any pedals other than the gas, so I'd lean towards a jet.
Chris

[Jeanyus]

My jetboat has the wood floor
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5859rails.jpg
as stated it is high maintianence, that is why mine does not look so nice. The bolts that hold the fuel tanks in leaked, and the balsa wood soaked up water causing it to rot. Had to grind it all out and glass it back in. When polished up it can look nice, but gets thrased with reguler boat use, sand, dirt, shoes, dropping wrenches on it etc.

[old rigger]

Balsa fooring is pretty easy to do. The area to be covered must be 100% flat/smooth.
After wetting down a layer of mat and then laying down the balsa, (it comes bonded to a sheet and is very easy to handle), a good heavy rolling pin is used to roll the balsa flat and remove the bubbles. After it's kicked, start mixing the resin 'cause it soaks up a ton if it, and the final coat of mat/cloth cannot be applied until it's done sucking up the stuff.
No strength to it at all, except for the the minimal glass used to hold it in place, but it sure is beautiful to look at.

[flat broke]

Balsa fooring is pretty easy to do. The area to be covered must be 100% flat/smooth.
After wetting down a layer of mat and then laying down the balsa, (it comes bonded to a sheet and is very easy to handle), a good heavy rolling pin is used to roll the balsa flat and remove the bubbles. After it's kicked, start mixing the resin 'cause it soaks up a ton if it, and the final coat of mat/cloth cannot be applied until it's done sucking up the stuff.
No strength to it at all, except for the the minimal glass used to hold it in place, but it sure is beautiful to look at.
Rich,
When you say no strength, do you mean in a flooring application where it's not sandwiched between two sections of laminated glass? I had always thought that the orrgin of the stuff was a core type application for layup. A couple layers of glass, the core material, in this case balsa, and then a couple more layers of glass. Similar to the foam coring techniques a lot of the east coast cat guys use. Are there differences in the Parque stuff and the coring material you would use in the fashion described above?
Either way, as you stated, when it's done right, it sure is pretty.
Chris

[Jeanyus]

I'm no genius, but wood gets its strength from the grain, seems like if you cut the wood into little squares, you loose the grain.

[Bobbo541]

Kevin Felkins builds the canyon boats and he uses it.My canyon has it .His # is 209-518-7575.

[Moneypitt]

Is that laminated floor any higher maintainance than say a flowed floor without the wood? Seems like the top covering is the same regardless if what is underneath the finish coat...........MP

[Bobbo541]

The maintainance is the same as any floor but tha balsa is stronger.

[old rigger]

I'm no genius, but wood gets its strength from the grain, seems like if you cut the wood into little squares, you loose the grain.
You are exactly right. The balsa is cut with the end grain up. (And lets not forget, it is balsa wood after all) There’s no longitudinal strength like you’d have with a stringer, and there’s not the strength you get with manufactured core mat or a honeycomb core center like the big boats use or what’s used in water skis, all that tech slopped over from the areo space industry.
You can take a piece of the balsa and snap it like a potato chip. And after it’s been soaked with resin, you can snap it like a thick potato chip. Any strength comes from the glass it’s bonded to and maybe the glass that’s encapsulating it. It’s not like you can leave out a few layers of the lay-up and substitute it with balsa parquet.
The balsa floor is NOT stronger, maybe more dense, but if anything more delicate to deal with. Drop something heavy by accident in a boat with a balsa floor and you'll ding it like a surfboard. Do the same without the balsa and, who cares.

[TRG]

"End-cut" balsa, its available in 2x4 sheets in either 1/4-1/2" thickness
an easy route to go through is sur-fab in the city of Santa fe springs Ca, ask for Doug and he'll get you in the right direction, ive seen this stuff layed down w/ either a mat or even cabosyl,...but i think the mat is the way to go!
If Hal needs someone to walk him through the process, feel free to call the shop (626-991-9031)
Todd

[Bobbo541]

I was told by Kevin Felkins that it was stronger so i guess he was wrong in what he told me.

[Ken F]

Rich,
Certainly not trying to be arguementative, I'm sure you've forgotten more than I'll ever know, however when Ervin was building my boat, he put 1/2" balsa under the bow, and on top of each tunnel, and in the bottom of the sponsons for strength.
He gave me several little pieces of Balsa, and I still have them on my desk.
You are right in that it breaks very easily, but if you lay it on the floor, and step on it, it is impossible to smash, or even leave a shoeprint in.
It seems after seeing my boat built that as you stated, there is no longitudinal strength, but it sure makes somewhat flimsy "glass" rigid enough to walk on. I can walk across my deck and there is no give at all.
Can you explain how or why? Is it just the encapsulation?
Thanks,
Ken F

[mexrunner]

so whats a 2 by 4 sheet cost todd :rollside:

[old rigger]

I'm getting myself into a hole. lol
Guess I should have stated that 'in my opinion, and based on the way I was taught, it's not stronger'.
I have no idea who Ervin or Kevin Felkins are, but I'm certainly am not saying anyone, much less their way of doing things, is wrong. If that's the way they build 'em, and that's what they tell their customers, so be it.
You can make flimsy glass more rigid by bonding in corrugated cardboard or half of a thick walled cardboard tube or coremat, or, by using the much more pleasing to the eye, much more labor intensive, and certainly more expensive, balsa parquet. Now which one do you thing gained favor with the finer boats being built over the last 3 decades? Half a cardboard tube can do the job just as well, if not better, cost's nothing (use the tube the glass came wrapped on) but looks like shit. :)

[bakerjet]

my Baker has the balsa floor but someone put carpet on it before i got it :cry:
Half a cardboard tube can do the job just as well, if not better, cost's nothing (use the tube the glass came wrapped on) but looks like shit.
yep thats what my cables are run through

[TRG]

so whats a 2 by 4 sheet cost todd :rollside:
Ive seen it as much as 80$ a slab , but i usualy pay somewhere's along 40-50, considering the fact that you would be buying more than one slab,(to do a complete floor) you'd probably get a better price by the box!
Im sure you could also go to the ends of the earth and find it for pennies, but my "Flying carpet" blew out the "flux capacitor", so im stuck going the shorter distance in my old pick up for supplies! :)
P.S. if anyone has a line on a "NEW" flux capacitor, im lookin'! lol
Todd

[Squirtin Thunder]

P.S. if anyone has a line on a "NEW" flux capacitor, im lookin'! lol
Todd
There may be one here ???
Please check out my Ebay store;
Code Blue Racing (http://stores.ebay.com/codeblueracing_W0QQstorecachemissZcodeblueracingQQ tZkm)

[flat broke]

There may be one here ???
Please check out my ebay store;
Code Blue Racing (http://stores.ebay.com/Code-Blue-Racing_W0QQstorecachemissZcodeblueracingQQtZkm)
I didn't see a flux capacitor, just a bunch of product from the CP performance website. So tell me again how this relates to an informational discussion about parque flooring?
Back on topic,
Rich, I've got the best of both worlds under my deck, balsa AND halves of cardboard rolls :D Deffinitely strong, as we've had Hacker and I up on the deck at once with 0 flex :)
Now for the next question, If you don't like the ornamental balsa floors, how hard are they to get out? I'm guessing that it's a total nightmare and would require a roll of 60grit disks for the orbital? Is it possible to cut open the glass that encapsulates the floor, then use one of those big flooring scrapers to get underneath it, or is that just begging for disaster in terms of damaging other stuff instead of removing the balsa?
Chris

[Squirtin Thunder]

I didn't see a flux capacitor, just a bunch of product from the CP performance website. So tell me again how this relates to an informational discussion about parque flooring?
I wonder if you will ever get that job as a moderator ???
Gosh maybe that is some of the products that I have to offer as a Authorized Dealer for CP Performance ???

[MikeF]

One vote for Chris. :)

[Rampager]

The balsa flooring in a boat is there to be part of the structural intergrity of the hull. It is NOT there for looks! It provides the air gap between 2 surfaces that are strong in tension/compression and is TOTALLY necessary. DO not remove it! Ken F has the right idea and there is a reason the grains run perp to the surface.
(how well you think an I beam woirks if you remove the center web???)
Cheers
p.s. yes it can look very nice and many many boats use this material in the bottoms

[Ken F]

Rampager, that is a great analagy about the I-beam! Good way to look at it.
Chris, I would agree, don't take it out. At least do some checking with some boat builders and get their opinion also before you buy a roll of 60 grit!!
Ken F

[flat broke]

Rampager, that is a great analagy about the I-beam! Good way to look at it.
Chris, I would agree, don't take it out. At least do some checking with some boat builders and get their opinion also before you buy a roll of 60 grit!!
Ken F
Don't worry Ken, I fully grasp the idea behind using a core material. I thought I explained it fairly well, earlier in the thread, including the end grain (though the I beam is a great analogy by Rampager)
In my situation, the parque was laid over a floor that sits on top of the stringers(only back in the engine compartment). In my best guestimation it was done for cosmetic reasons, not stregth, as a 4 stringer Spectra is pretty damn strong back there to begin with. I've been thinking I'd like to shave some weight and spay gel back there instead of the aging parque. So my thought was to strip the parque, prep the old floorboard if it's structurally sound, and then gel it. I wasn't talking about flooring laminated directly to the hull of the boat. In that instance, no I wouldn't think of removing it, unless it was to replace it.
I Know you've done a lot of structural glass work on your old Omega, so your insignt into getting the parque up, would be helpful.
Thanks,
Chris

[flat broke]

I wonder if you will ever get that job as a moderator ???
Gosh maybe that is some of the products that I have to offer as a Authorized Dealer for CP Performance ???
I don't want the "job" of moderator. IMHO, the participants of the forum should be self regulated.
If your halfassed attempt at sarcasm was related to why I continually harass you about spamming in these forums, it's simple. These forums used to be a place of decent information exchange. Over the years, the quality of content as declined in direct relation to the increase in quantity of post whores such as yourself.
Everyone always says, "scroll past the spam". That's fine. But when you are constantly throwing in unrelated random posts into technical discussion threads soley for the purpose of promoting your personal business endeavors, it is hard to "scroll past it".
You're probably a nice guy, and didn't seem like too much of a dick when I talked to you at the CBBB, and I'm thankful for what you have done to revive the jetboat roundy rounds; but you really need to take a look at how the other business owners that interact on this site conduct themselves. You are shameless in your self promotion to the point of perpetuating the stigma of having no pride or shame. If you want to have a boat business but can't inventory the stuff yourself. Build a website, or use that Ebay store, conduct your business and best of luck to you. But quit using this forum as a vehicle for promotion of your personal, "for profit" endeavors.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming about balsa coring etc.
Chris

[riverbound]

I don't want the "job" of moderator. IMHO, the participants of the forum should be self regulated.
If your halfassed attempt at sarcasm was related to why I continually harass you about spamming in these forums, it's simple. These forums used to be a place of decent information exchange. Over the years, the quality of content as declined in direct relation to the increase in quantity of post whores such as yourself.
Everyone always says, "scroll past the spam". That's fine. But when you are constantly throwing in unrelated random posts into technical discussion threads soley for the purpose of promoting your personal business endeavors, it is hard to "scroll past it".
You're probably a nice guy, and didn't seem like too much of a dick when I talked to you at the CBBB, and I'm thankful for what you have done to revive the jetboat roundy rounds; but you really need to take a look at how the other business owners that interact on this site conduct themselves. You are shameless in your self promotion to the point of perpetuating the stigma of having no pride or shame. If you want to have a boat business but can't inventory the stuff yourself. Build a website, or use that Ebay store, conduct your business and best of luck to you. But quit using this forum as a vehicle for promotion of your personal, "for profit" endeavors.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming about balsa coring etc.
Chris
:D :D :D

[Ken F]

I Know you've done a lot of structural glass work on your old Omega, so your insignt into getting the parque up, would be helpful.
Thanks,
Chris
Chris,
Yes, I would have to agree with you that it was probably put there for cosmetics on your boat. I didnt even think of what your boat was before I popped off on that one! lol
As far as removing the parquet, I have no idea having never done that operation, but I'll ask Ervin for you- I'm sure he has.
I'll get back to you in a couple of days on it.
Ken

[dmontzsta]

This is a great looking one...
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104207

[old rigger]

The balsa flooring in a boat is there to be part of the structural intergrity of the hull. It is NOT there for looks! It provides the air gap between 2 surfaces that are strong in tension/compression and is TOTALLY necessary. DO not remove it! Ken F has the right idea and there is a reason the grains run perp to the surface.
(how well you think an I beam woirks if you remove the center web???)
Cheers
p.s. yes it can look very nice and many many boats use this material in the bottoms
I disagree.
Chris, you could take the balsa out of your boat (and I'm talking if it were in the hull and not in the area where yours is) and it wouldn't make a difference in the strength of the boat at all. The boat is layed up to a certain schedule, adding the balsa is icing on the cake.
A 20 spectra, for example, layed up with balsa as a finish is no stronger than my 20 4 stringer spectra without it. It looks a hell of a lot nicer though. That boat dmontstza posted a link to is beautiful.
As far as taking it out, I have that great belt sander and I've already told you that you can borrow anytime. :) You'll need it once you get down to the balsa itself.
And, not to start a flame, but contrary to what Rampager said, it is not used in many, many boats. It's used in a very small percentage of boats built.

[Liberator TJ1984]

I've got it in my boat , except for directly under the engine and around the intake .....me likey :cool:

[MikeF]

I don't want the "job" of moderator. IMHO, the participants of the forum should be self regulated.
If your halfassed attempt at sarcasm was related to why I continually harass you about spamming in these forums, it's simple. These forums used to be a place of decent information exchange. Over the years, the quality of content as declined in direct relation to the increase in quantity of post whores such as yourself.
Everyone always says, "scroll past the spam". That's fine. But when you are constantly throwing in unrelated random posts into technical discussion threads soley for the purpose of promoting your personal business endeavors, it is hard to "scroll past it".
You're probably a nice guy, and didn't seem like too much of a dick when I talked to you at the CBBB, and I'm thankful for what you have done to revive the jetboat roundy rounds; but you really need to take a look at how the other business owners that interact on this site conduct themselves. You are shameless in your self promotion to the point of perpetuating the stigma of having no pride or shame. If you want to have a boat business but can't inventory the stuff yourself. Build a website, or use that Ebay store, conduct your business and best of luck to you. But quit using this forum as a vehicle for promotion of your personal, "for profit" endeavors.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming about balsa coring etc.
Chris
My sentiments to the T.
That's why I'd vote for Chris. :cool:

[flat broke]

My sentiments to the T.
That's why I'd vote for Chris. :cool:
Why not vote for Pedro? The quality of work wouldn't be quite as good, and it'd be hell conveying exactly what you wanted, but you'd probably save some $$$ on the project for a short term gain :D :D :D
On a serious note:
Rich, I'll be letting you know about that belt sander. I was hoping that since the shear strength of the balsa is pretty weak, I could get in under the glass and break a large portion of the balsa out. Then come over, borrow the belt sander and get rid of the bedding and clean up the wood/glass underneath. Don't worry, I'll be in touch with you shortly :D
Ken,
Let me know what you hear on removing the stuff. I appreciate you taking the time to ask someone on with some hands on knowledge of the subject on my behalf.
Chris

[weekendwarrior]

The balsa flooring in a boat is there to be part of the structural intergrity of the hull. It is NOT there for looks! It provides the air gap between 2 surfaces that are strong in tension/compression and is TOTALLY necessary. DO not remove it! Ken F has the right idea and there is a reason the grains run perp to the surface.
(how well you think an I beam woirks if you remove the center web???)
Cheers
p.s. yes it can look very nice and many many boats use this material in the bottoms
Balsa does ad a certain amount of rigidity to the flex of the hull. Yet, it has NO compression strength. That is why you will never see it in areas of the boat where components will be bolted through.(i.e. intakes, struts, fins.) If you were to try and bolt through it, it would only flatten out and bend the glass down. It would probably leak in and sponge up every bit of water. Although balsa core is very cool looking, the second a builder throws it in their lamination they are creating an inevitable death for the hull. Just one mans opinion.

[texas-19]

Balsa fooring is pretty easy to do. The area to be covered must be 100% flat/smooth.
After wetting down a layer of mat and then laying down the balsa, (it comes bonded to a sheet and is very easy to handle), a good heavy rolling pin is used to roll the balsa flat and remove the bubbles. After it's kicked, start mixing the resin 'cause it soaks up a ton if it, and the final coat of mat/cloth cannot be applied until it's done sucking up the stuff.
No strength to it at all, except for the the minimal glass used to hold it in place, but it sure is beautiful to look at.
I'm not sure i understand how you are installing the balsa.
Sounds like you are installing mat/cloth after you lay down the balsa?That can't be right,i get confused easy,can you clear it up for me.Thanks.

[old rigger]

I'm not sure i understand how you are installing the balsa.
Sounds like you are installing mat/cloth after you lay down the balsa?That can't be right,i get confused easy,can you clear it up for me.Thanks.
Can't be right? What do you think completes the process once it's bonded in place?

[old rigger]

Rich, I'll be letting you know about that belt sander. I was hoping that since the shear strength of the balsa is pretty weak, I could get in under the glass and break a large portion of the balsa out. Then come over, borrow the belt sander and get rid of the bedding and clean up the wood/glass underneath. Don't worry, I'll be in touch with you shortly :D
The top layer of glass should be a cake walk to get off. The rest is gonna be messy.

[Rampager]

Im not sure if everyone is talking about the same things here.
If the boat in question has a cosmetic layer of balsa in it for looks only thats one thing.
Alot of boats have layers of glass laid in the mold then a layer of balsa laid in and then more glass on top. This is a very definative structural aspect of the construction and most certainly makes the hull ALOT stronger. 2 layers of glass seperated by balsa are infinatly more ridgid than 2 layers of glass layed directly on each other. The cardboard anaology was a good one but if you use that to experiment with do it once with cardboard as it comes in a box then try it again with the cardboard running "end grain" as tho its a honeycomb material. You'll soon see the major advantages to end grain balsa. For almost no weight you can acheive an incredible amount of strength.
Old rigger I totally disagree with saying a boat with can be as strong as without, UNLESS you mean while being far heavier. Layering many many layers of cloth/mat to acheive strength is a poor way to build a boat. Using core materials is far better and if done right CAN last a looong time. (i.e. vacummm bagging)
I'm a tin boat guy by nature(now) but I know some guys that build boats and I even have a hydrostream project boat that actually needs to have the balsa core redone. Its removed right now and the outer hull is paper thin and your foot would likely go right thru it. Add balsa and more cloth and it becomes strong enough to drive again. Alot of builders use a core in the bottoms of boats. Better builders use it in the sides and decks. Check out this build thread and you will see what a well built glass hull looks like thru the build stages(sorry about the drama in the thread)
Pic: Would they do this for looks only?????
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=98039&d=1133799538
forum link:
http://forums.screamandfly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96337&page=2&highlight=tuff
This guy is in out club and he makes a really strong nice boat(there is a reason they call them "Tuff")
Cheers

[old rigger]

Rampager,
while it may seem that 2 layers of glass seperated by a core of balsa is stronger than just 2 layers of glass, that's not necessarily the case. More isn't always better. The balsa core may take away the flex that we were talking about earlier in this thread, it doesn't make it stronger. A boat can flex wildly and not break. In fact sometimes making it rigid can lead to other problems like stress cracks. You can take a Rogers hull, for example, lay it up properly and you'll never need balsa in a million years. The strength of his hulls were due in part to their shape.
And you're right about what I was talking about with the 20 spectras. They were built heavy, although the '79 we have now is half the lay up of the '73 hull we had a few years ago, but it's still tough as a brick. Adding a balsa core would not change a thing in that boat except to make it stunning to look at. It's still going to ride fantastic, perform well and do what's it's supposed to do because of it's near flawless design.
Vacumm bagging has benifed boat builders for decades. Find an old Aqua Craft from the 60's and you'll more than likely find fast, crack free hull that has nothing to do to balsa. Just good glass work.
As far as my being wrong about a boat being as strong without balsa, could be. I'm wrong about alot of things. :) I know everything is done better, faster, bigger than when I got out of the boat biz some 10 years ago. But from what I see out here in so cal, not much has changed with the builders. Poor glass work together with the aid of a core, be it balsa or a manufactured core, is still shity glass work. And there never seems to be a lack of that.
Back in the day before Dick Schuster started Tahiti he was a laminator for Powercat boats. They were building the race hulls out of nothing but cloth, no mat at all. They were very thin, dry lay-ups, running twin mercs. Mid 80s for speed back was what they were running. If I remember right, he told me their thinking (this was very near the begining of glass boats) was to build the boat like a helmet, nice clean layer upon layer of cloth. It worked. Clean glass work together with the design of the classic little cat made it a winner. On the other hand he also told me the first time the had resin deliverd to the shop, when they were making the change from wood boats to glass boats, they popped the lid off of the first 55 gallon drum and mixed the entire thing with catalist. They were on the very begining of the learning curve of 'high tech' glass work.
As far as Hydrostreams, no doubt about it. They are great looking boats, and very fast. Wickedly fast. Everyone knows that, but again I'll have to disagree with you. I don't have to follow along with your link to see a 'well built glass hull looks like through the stages' thank you. Couldn't log on anyway. I've seen hydrostreams and they can't hold a candle to the workmanship that's gone into say a Cole (like the one that started theis thread). Not even close. Are they fast? Sure. So what. Cole, Howard, Hondo, Stevens, Rogers, Hallett, Schiada, THOSE, and many others I didn't think of right now, are a lesson in workmanship.

[Rampager]

I apreciate your oppinions and keeping it civil Old rigger
I wasn't meaning to say 'streams' were necessarily high quality just a good example of a boat built with a core in the bottom. I honestly think this is the only way to built a strong fast boat IMO
Obviously bad glass work is bad no matter what boat its in, I agree there.
One of the true tricks to making a strong boat is getting the flex there with enough stiffness for the boat to handle properly. Balsa can still be used to do this if the hull is desinged right. Rubber rafts are great for flex but a bitch to get to handle lol
Anyway I think we've shed enough light on the topic. Its easy to find alot more info online for the curious. Just make sure that balsa is cosmetic before you remove it or you'll have one floppy boat!
Cheers

[Ken F]

Flatbroke:
Okay, talked to Ervin Capps about your question & this thread.
First, to your question: He said that the best way to remove it was to cut very carefully through the top skin of glass around the edged, and peel it away with a chisel down to the Balsa. Then remove the balsa with a chisel, as it doesn't take well to a sander or grinder. His next question was, what is he trying to acheive? I told him I thought it was just to remove some weight. He said that the amount of weight you were going to remove was miniscule for the amount of work you were looking at. He said that if it was only in your bilge area, that he doubted that you would remove 50 lbs. Might be worth it if you were racing, as 50 lbs might make a little difference in E.T., but wouldn't make a noticeable difference in top speed if that was your concern. He said go out and do a test run by yourself, and then take a 50 lb. kid for a ride with you, and note the difference. lol.....something to think about!
On the subject of the end-grain Balsa....he violently disagrees with the statement that it adds no structual strength, sighting the $7-800,000 offshore tunnels. They have two layers of one inch balsa laid in the bottom of their sponsons. He sited the aircraft industry, who for years has used the technique of laminating aluminum honeycomb betweeen layers of sheet aluminum. Same difference as what we are talking about. Ervin also used the example of an I-beam. The top, bottom & web of a beam as individual components are not that strong, however when put together as a
structure, they become incredibly strong.
I think we need to think about what kind of strength we are talking about here. Panel strength & rigidity. Sure, if you run into the corner of a dock, and poke a hole in the side of your boat, balsa wouldn't have done you any good, but such as in a deck, where you are trying to make it so you can walk on it, or the strength of the bottom of your sponsons, for hitting 3' rollers, yes it's going to make a difference.
Second point to me is that we are talking possibly about 2 different types of boats. The type which are laid up heavy enough so that the glass is the structure, or a light-weight lay up where layers of glass add weight. In the second situation, the balsa is definatly a structrual component in my mind.
From the website of Baltek Balsa: (http://www.baltek.com/products/egbc/egbc.html)
End Grain Balsa, a highly processed ultra light wood product, imparts impressive strength and stiffness to the sandwich panel. The end grain configuration of balsa provides high resistance to crushing, and is very difficult to tear apart. End grain balsa cored panels also have the ability to handle excessive dynamic loads with high resistance to fatigue.
Until recently, end grain balsa was excluded from some weight sensitive applications, as there were lower density foam cores available. Now, through controlled growing and careful selection, BALTEK SL balsa is competitive in weight, as well as offering superior performance in stiffness and strength, particularly where local crushing or bruising is a concern.
High Speed Power Boats:
End grain balsa has become the core material of choice for hulls and decks in high speed offshore power boats. The extreme slamming loads put a high emphasis on core strength and skin adhesion, areas in which end grain balsa excels. The new BALTEK SL ™ product range allows the density of the end grain balsa to be tailored to meet the loads in different areas of the hull.
Again, I've really enjoyed this thread, it's really made me think & do some research!
Ken F

[old rigger]

rampager,
off topic, but I've never been for a ride in a hydrostream. I know a bunch of guys over at 'screamandfly' and there's another web site I can't think of right now, love 'em. How fast did your's run and how'd it feel on top end? They always look like they take a set very well. I know the guys with the big motors are very fast but even the small engines fly with that boat. It's a wonder you don't see more of them on the west coast. Plus I love the way the sheer lines drops down in the front of the bow. Good looking boats.
Every now and then an older one will pop up on ebay or in the trader, always thought it be a fun boat to restore with an old merc inline.

[Rampager]

Never driven mine rigger! lol
I got it for free off S&F cause it needa a recore as I said. Ther are alot of them around in this neck of the woods and a bunch of guys have em in our club. They do fly with the right setup and power. Was told mine would easily do 80 mph all day with an older 150 merc. Its a Vector and is 17' long
Ive loved the lines of those boats since I first saw em when I was little. Definatly not alot of boats around with lines like them. They are like a Corvette stingray on water
Cheers
p.s. that description of how to remove the core is exactly what i'd been told/read. Skill saw thru upper glass layer and scrape/sand/chisel out the balsa Supposed to be a very labourous and crappy job from what Im told but my core was already 90 % out hehe

[1slowboat]

I have the same flooring in mine, still looks good too, for an 88 model

[Back Forty]

Here's a '75 Sleekcraft thats getting the " For Looks" version of the balsa core. The only removing of material I have done was the un needed mat from the old glassed in deck, the transome wood, center stringer, rear shorty stringers and the 1/4" plywood that was glassed into the hull at the rear srtingers outboard. This project is still in full swing I just haven't posted in a while. I'm doing a foam core in the chines glassed in before the balsa goes down. One thing I have learned and will never do again is play with the mass production crap boats again. Built like a tank, the mat and glass is full of big air pockets, loads of un needed resin piles... Just a matter of "what is" when dealing with a production quality boat. I'm a believer in going with the high quality stuff from here out.
This pic is with most of the transition work finished.
http://www.hilsingermotorsports.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=62237
Here is the balsa and new stringer material thrown in just for pics.
http://www.hilsingermotorsports.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=62503
If you plan on doing a project like this buy youself a high quality airfile like this Hutchins model out of Pasadena. The cheap china model will cost you your patients.
http://www.hilsingermotorsports.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=62623

[old rigger]

Well, at least you went from a bottom of the line glastron that's a chopper gun boat to a better sleeky.
I hope you're not planning on using that wood for your stringers? That's kinda funny really, you rag on a 'production' boat for it's workmanship and you choose what looks to be knotty pine in for your materials.
Why the addition of the coremat to the chines?
Big project! Good luck.

[Back Forty]

Old Rigger...? Your old eye has failed you.. :D Thats kiln dried douglas fir and I've got room to pull my parts from the material without the blemishes. The G Carlson isn't chopper gun as far as I can tell but I'll be sure to give you a full report when I do it's restoration... Yes i still have it. Hard to tell over the internet but you seem testy..? :rollside:
Foam core to the chines/strakes is so there is no transition to play with. I want the balsa bonded to a clean surface and keep the fill work to a minimum.
.

[old rigger]

Me testy? No way. I was just curious on you choice of wood. My 49 year old eyes are bad I guess, but I would swear I see knots in the lumber, I'd put money on it. Even in the most production of production shops, out here anyway, clear kiln dried fir was used, not just kiln dried fir.
I've never seen a glastron boat that wasn't chopped, maybe the carlson line was different. My mistake.

[Back Forty]

I think the Carlson is put together just about the same as this Sleek. A couple layers of something decent in the mold and then mostly loads of boat mat standard thoughout except for the intake are which is all maybe 8 oz or less..? I don't know. CSM was used to tie the deck to the hull in this case and some of the rigging work like the tanks and so on. The deck on the Carlson is light weight weave type fabric as is this sleek except for the bow which is backed by some coring and serious strength layup I suppose for stepping on and laying up there. The center of gravity is just ahead of the dash line.
I just moved into a new house down here and will be out of town for a couple more weeks but will get some more shots when I get back on it.

[Back Forty]

Old rigger, your observations of the stringer material had me nervous... I just went to pick up my glastron and had a look. It's clean with no knots ... There are some dust or handling marks on the wood that make the pics look wierd I guess. I was ready to drag my stuff back to the supplier to raise hell..! :)

[weekendwarrior]

Old Rigger...? Your old eye has failed you.. :D Thats kiln dried douglas fir and I've got room to pull my parts from the material without the blemishes. The G Carlson isn't chopper gun as far as I can tell but I'll be sure to give you a full report when I do it's restoration... Yes i still have it. Hard to tell over the internet but you seem testy..? :rollside:
Foam core to the chines/strakes is so there is no transition to play with. I want the balsa bonded to a clean surface and keep the fill work to a minimum.
.
Is that a jet? I hope that you aren't putting the balsa around the intake. And more importantly is you never put a compressible material under stringers. It might be a better idea to glass your stringers in first, then put the balsa in. I don't know everything, just giving some friendly advise.

[Back Forty]

Is that a jet? I hope that you aren't putting the balsa around the intake. And more importantly is you never put a compressible material under stringers. It might be a better idea to glass your stringers in first, then put the balsa in. I don't know everything, just giving some friendly advise.
I know. I'm like everybody else and don't know everything either. I know about the intake area though. I've got it all staked out. There are all kinds of opinions and methods about what goes under the stringers.
Old rigger what do you say about the stringer placement. The old stringers were over top of 1/4 " ply wood. Some say to pot them in with Epoxy. Most say to never just bond them directly to the hull.

[Wicked Performance Boats]

Anybody that thinks Balsa core is only for looks and when used between layers of fiberglass is non structual. Just doesn't know diddly about lightweight boat layup! It's used in liteweight boat floors as a spacer between layers of glass for strength. It just happens to look great too! I've seen it in many boats. But the main reason it's still used is it's cheaper than foam core. Plain glas is boring! Budlight :argue:

[weekendwarrior]

Anybody that thinks Balsa core is only for looks and when used between layers of fiberglass is non structual. Just doesn't know diddly about lightweight boat layup! It's used in liteweight boat floors as a spacer between layers of glass for strength. It just happens to look great too! I've seen it in many boats. But the main reason it's still used is it's cheaper than foam core. Plain glas is boring! Budlight :argue:
No offence dude, but I've seen 275 pound 19ft race boat record holders that don't have balsa in them. They don't have it in them because it sucks up a lot of resin. It just sounds like you don't know diddly about bulkheading and foam core structural. Balsa is way heavier than divinicell or clegacell. But you own wicked perfomance boats, so your a boatbuilder and you must know that.

[MarKist]

yeah but, how to get these cracks out !!whats the best way ???http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1164IM000705.JPG
Markist

[dmontzsta]

yeah but, how to get these cracks out !!whats the best way ???http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1164IM000705.JPG
Markist
ouch, how deep are those? it could just be the flowcoat. I would have the floor re-flowed and it would probably look bitchen. IF, it is just the coating that is cracked.

[Wicked Performance Boats]

No offence dude, but I've seen 275 pound 19ft race boat record holders that don't have balsa in them. They don't have it in them because it sucks up a lot of resin. It just sounds like you don't know diddly about bulkheading and foam core structural. Balsa is way heavier than divinicell or clegacell. But you own wicked perfomance boats, so your a boatbuilder and you must know that.
"275 pound 19ft race boat record holders that don't have balsa in them." Duh, really light race boats don't have anything BUT fiberglass in them! Everything you add [foam or balsa], will make it heavier! But you already know that. Balsa is a spacer, that's it. Foam is lighter BUT not cheaper. Foam does not add strength. Foam adds nothing to looks, BUT balsa does! It's kinda like adding a sponge as a spacer. Now if you really know your shit, You can Quote how much balsa weighs wet with resin versus foam wet with resin! How about Carbon fiber too! I don't know everything about layups BUT I'm willing to learn. Are you open to learning? This topic is a very interesting topic for anyone desiring to learn about boat layup and how materials affect weight/and durability. Your turn Budlight :argue:

[coolchange]

Good topic. I think there is a couple of different things going at once though. Whats stronger, A piece of Oak or Willow? One is strong becace it is rigid and keeps its form , the other because its flexable and will bend but not break. Here's the way I understand it ( perhaps I'm wrong) Balsa as core in a stressed skin makes a very strong panel but not because of the balsa but because it separates the skins and makes them try to move in tension away from the load direction. Balsa laid on top of a regular lay up schedule for a floor doesn't really do much because its not part of a stressed skin panel. Now my question, If I want to add Balsa to my floor for looks I bed it in mat, flood it in resin, then what? 1 layer of cloth? 2? More mat? Then flo coat.

[weekendwarrior]

"275 pound 19ft race boat record holders that don't have balsa in them." Duh, really light race boats don't have anything BUT fiberglass in them! Everything you add [foam or balsa], will make it heavier! But you already know that. Balsa is a spacer, that's it. Foam is lighter BUT not cheaper. Foam does not add strength. Foam adds nothing to looks, BUT balsa does! It's kinda like adding a sponge as a spacer. Now if you really know your shit, You can Quote how much balsa weighs wet with resin versus foam wet with resin! How about Carbon fiber too! I don't know everything about layups BUT I'm willing to learn. Are you open to learning? This topic is a very interesting topic for anyone desiring to learn about boat layup and how materials affect weight/and durability. Your turn Budlight :argue:
Actually divinicell and clegacell are much stronger and lighter then balsa, and hear is why; These are foams, but not in the conventional way, they are very hard(take one square off of the scrim backing, put it on end and stand on it. It will support your weight.) and they are also what is called a closed cell foam. What is that you ask? It is unable to obsorbe the resin or water for that matter. But it does adhere to liquid resin like no other.Every body knows that balsa needs many extra buckets of resin to keep the mat from turning white, or drying out. Balsa is very cool looking, but not light weight lay up material. Also, that particular race boat that I was talking about had clegacell in spacific parts of the boat to keep it from cracking between the braces. So if you are intersted in learning about lamination I recomend hooking up with someone who doesn't mind enlightening you. I know this is off topic to what the thread started out with, but it is hard not to correct someone who does not know what they are talking about.

[weekendwarrior]

Good topic. I think there is a couple of different things going at once though. Whats stronger, A piece of Oak or Willow? One is strong becace it is rigid and keeps its form , the other because its flexable and will bend but not break. Here's the way I understand it ( perhaps I'm wrong) Balsa as core in a stressed skin makes a very strong panel but not because of the balsa but because it separates the skins and makes them try to move in tension away from the load direction. Balsa laid on top of a regular lay up schedule for a floor doesn't really do much because its not part of a stressed skin panel. Now my question, If I want to add Balsa to my floor for looks I bed it in mat, flood it in resin, then what? 1 layer of cloth? 2? More mat? Then flo coat.
You would want to probably run a layer of 1.5 or 2 ounce mat with your choice ounce cloth. You could also finish that with two or three medium coats of wax resin. Then sand flat and clear coat. good luck.