PDA

View Full Version : Damn Car Dealers



TexasChopper
12-21-2006, 01:20 PM
Is there a such thing as a car dealer that is not a scum bag? I had my deal all set on a new wrangler... they were giving me 1645.00 off MSRP, and they were giving me a satisfactory price on my trade. Now they are playing around in finance trying make more money on the backend with a 7.75% interest rate (i have great credit and low DTI) I understand a car salesman is not there to work for free, and I'm willing to bet the electric bill for that dealership is 10K a month, so go ahead and make some money fine, but don't bait, switch, and play around with numbers. I'm still getting a Jeep, just looks as if I may have to travel a few miles to SC, or FL.

Rock-A-Bye-Baby
12-21-2006, 01:29 PM
Try getting financed thru your bank and tell the finance officer at the dealership to go fawk himself.

TexasChopper
12-21-2006, 01:33 PM
I think we can go through Capital One for 6.25%. We are looking into that now

ratso
12-21-2006, 02:09 PM
In some dealerships, the business and finance managers have too much freedom to try and gouge the customer on interest... I've seen deals lost once they get to the finance department.

YeLLowBoaT
12-21-2006, 02:11 PM
car dealerships skrew you more in the back room then they do on the sale floor... been that way forever.

Hardly Satisfied
12-21-2006, 02:22 PM
Is there a such thing as a car dealer that is not a scum bag? I had my deal all set on a new wrangler... they were giving me 1645.00 off MSRP, and they were giving me a satisfactory price on my trade. Now they are playing around in finance trying make more money on the backend with a 7.75% interest rate (i have great credit and low DTI) I understand a car salesman is not there to work for free, and I'm willing to bet the electric bill for that dealership is 10K a month, so go ahead and make some money fine, but don't bait, switch, and play around with numbers. I'm still getting a Jeep, just looks as if I may have to travel a few miles to SC, or FL.
Go and get your own loan, they make tons of money off of loans from different banks. There not loseing Money like you think they are

TOBTEK
12-21-2006, 02:24 PM
speaking as a F&I guy for 20 years......... they MAYBE trying to get into your panties from the SALES MANGER deck not the F&I's. MOST deals are worked from the sales manger.
VERY simple solution..... have them write you on a 5 day option contract. You can take your new car now, and Will give you 5 days to bring the dealership a check from YOUR bank. And trust me, the dealership WILL find more competive rates real fast :)

LAND_LOVER69
12-21-2006, 02:28 PM
Just ask them what the buy rate is for the loan. I don't know about your state but in the great state of Maryland, if a customer asks me what the buy rate is on a car loan I leagally have to disclose that to the customer!
Also note that there are some good dealerships out there you just gotta find them. I charge generally 1 point to every customer that walks into the door. Still better than the standard walk in rate at the same bank.

YeLLowBoaT
12-21-2006, 02:29 PM
Best way to buy a car is to birng in the cash... setting 10k down on the table does wonders for making killer deals...

yopengo
12-21-2006, 02:31 PM
speaking as a F&I guy for 20 years......... they MAYBE trying to get into your panties from the SALES MANGER deck not the F&I's. MOST deals are worked from the sales manger.
VERY simple solution..... have them write you on a 5 day option contract. You can take your new car now, and Will give you 5 days to bring the dealership a check from YOUR bank. And trust me, the dealership WILL find more competive rates real fast :)
Great idea and check out Costco. They usually have great deals on auto loans with CapOne.

ratso
12-21-2006, 02:36 PM
car dealerships skrew you more in the back room then they do on the sale floor... been that way forever.
We would run "4 squares" in the sales dept. We'd get them in the office to close the deal. All we were worried about usually was where they wanted their payments and for how long, save the rest for finance. Take for instance $500 and 4 years. I'd go to the managers office, work the figures on the car and trade if any, low ball the trade and hit them up at $650 and 5 years, and sit there in silence staring at the horror on their face. Naturally they'd be all upset, after all that's not where they wanted to be. I'd tell em hang on and see what I could do. I'd go back to the managers office, we'd talk about the ball game etc and so on, and I'd go back to the customer and show them $600 and 5 years... because I talked the manager into giving more on their trade-in. Of course, they still aren't happy and are ready to walk out, if you suck at your job. If the salesman has played this thing out right... you should be best friends by now. Hell, I've been invited to dinner, told I should meet their daughter, been offered discounts at their business, and been sent tons more business by them telling their friends. If it's a decent looking "sometimes single" female, chances are we're banging by the end of the night. If you're good, the deal is closed... you gotta build that rapport. Last chance, far as I'm concerned, is the next trip to the managers office. If you're selling and haven't closed the deal by now, it gets down to the nitty gritty. If these people are that hard up to deal with, you gotta cut into the profit which also is gonna cut into your commission... and you don't make the good money then because you have just proven you are an average salesman. You've run the credit report, you've shown the car, they love it... you better nail it this time... and get them into finance... and with good guys in there that know their job, the deal should be sealed... Hate to see anybody walk over 1.5%... I have more but I'm late for a haircut.

HCS
12-21-2006, 02:46 PM
Go through a credit union. Car dealers hate credit unions.
Believe me I work for one. Get financed first then go by your car.

NashvilleBound
12-21-2006, 02:52 PM
Go to www.edmunds.com and look up your car. It will tell you the invoice the dealer pays, whats retail and what others are paying. It will let you option it out just how you want to buy it. Have your own financing in place. I have bought roughly 25 new cars in my life and I dont think I ever paid more than $500 over invoice....unless it was a 1st year run or specialty.
But to answer your question......YES, ALL car dealers are scumbags.

HCS
12-21-2006, 03:03 PM
Go to www.edmunds.com and look up your car. It will tell you the invoice the dealer pays, whats retail and what others are paying. It will let you option it out just how you want to buy it. Have your own financing in place. I have bought roughtly 25 new cars in my life and I dont think I ever paid more than $500 over invoice....unless it was a 1st year run or specialty.
But to answer your question......ALL car dealers are scumbags.
That's the only way to do it is to have your own financing in place.
Then go wheel and deal. Don't let them know your already financed and kick their asses.

roostwear
12-21-2006, 03:08 PM
they were giving me 1645.00 off MSRP, and they were giving me a satisfactory price on my trade.
Dude, you are negotiating all wrong. MSRP_ is a sucker's bet and so many people fall for it. Two days ago I called a local Dodge dealer (after checking his inventory for the model and options I wanted) and spoke with the fleet manager. The operative word is FLEET! Told him I had a cash deal for him, what would he do. He was figuring up an OTD price and we started talking. He was giving $400 back of invoice (don't let them tell you THEY get the incentive). He gets his holdback, and I get the truck... everyone's happy! The unit was on the ground for 91 days and he wanted to sell it and stop eating flooring as much as I wanted it.
I've NEVER paid above invoice for a new car, and you shouldn't either. There's too much inventory and too few buyers for them to pick cherries. Go in and ask to see the invoice. If they won't show you, walk away.
The disadvantage you have is you probably need the trade for part of the down. They give you a "satisfactory" price, because they're making the money on sale. Work them on the price and watch that "satisfactory" price drop.
I'll be picking mine up in 4 hours :D

KLEPTOW
12-21-2006, 03:13 PM
My last two cars I didn't even go to the dealer, called the fleet manager on the phone told them that i was going to buy a car today, was it going to be from him, or someone else.
Our last one a 05 excursion, the socal dealers thought they had us by the balls because they were end of life, dumb asses must have been to busy rippen people off and didn't realize gas was almost 4 bucks a gal, called the fleet manager at Galpin in Prescott gave him the same story he delivered my new Rivervaldez to my house in Havi, nerver set foot in any dealership.

Magic34
12-21-2006, 03:23 PM
$1600 off MSRP is a rip off.
Ask to see the invoice page and offer $100 below invoice.
Then look to see what Jeep is offering for current rates. Where are you located? You can look up current offers online.
Also, the best day of the year to buy is coming up... Dec 30 and Dec 31. They are trying to make the year end numbers big!

Troy McClure
12-21-2006, 03:28 PM
If your looking for a jeep, go here http://www.jeepwarehouse.com/entrance.htm
You can get pricing on the jeep and purchase if you want. They are in Indiana but will ship it to you for about the same as the destination charge at your local dealer.
Not sure but I think when I was looking their prices are pretty good. They only will sell 2007's though no 2006's available if I remember correctly.
Good luck

TexasChopper
12-21-2006, 04:06 PM
I'll tell you I am so damn worn out on this... your right 1600 off msrp is crap. goin to get a loan from Cap one in the morning... I will be in FL and SC next week so I will start calling around, and see who want to sell the most
you know what I love though... all these salesman keep telling me how long they have been doing this....who the hell cares, all that tells me is you have learned all the tricks... I would rather deal with some guy who's first day on the job, and the 2 dealers I have been serious with keep telling me how they are just small town dealers and "we do people right"... The dealer I went to lastnight was in the middle of nowhere ga (Winder, GA for those in this area) but it was sitting on 58 acres ( i was told that about 12 times) and it was full of cars... I'm thinking to myself, yeah the guy that owns this built this as a result of being just a good ole' boy giving cars away. BullS** he built that joint jamming it up evryones butt!! i thought I even saw a helipad out back!!
I think I'm just going to go down to longterm parking at the airport with my slim jim!!!

HCS
12-21-2006, 04:24 PM
Look for add vehicles also. Might not have all the options you want but that's where you can get the best deal.
Got the wife a new Nissan Altima fully loaded power everything. No navigation system or sat radio or anyting like that but...
Sticker price $18.900
Add price $17.900
Factory rebate $2000.00
5% 4 year loan.
Paid $15.900 for a brand new car for the wife. All power, cruise and all the goodies.
Can't beat that and the wife is happy.
Looks like this but a different color.
http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/aic/nissan_altima_35sl_2006_385x192.jpg?5ALTIMA1

dumbandyoung
12-21-2006, 04:41 PM
check this out i jus bought a 2006 f250 powerstroke
46000 sticker
37000 fleet price i get
2000 rebate
yes 35000 for a brand new diesel
and i bought it at during some sale that got me 3.9% for 5yrs

dumbandyoung
12-21-2006, 04:42 PM
$1600 off MSRP is a rip off.
Ask to see the invoice page and offer $100 below invoice.
Then look to see what Jeep is offering for current rates. Where are you located? You can look up current offers online.
Also, the best day of the year to buy is coming up... Dec 30 and Dec 31. They are trying to make the year end numbers big!
you got it right!! always look at the invoice!!! always!!

Ziggy
12-21-2006, 04:47 PM
ROTFLMAO :D :D :D
.
So many theories and the one that stands out the most to me is "buyers are liars".......don't tell them this, don't tell them that, don't say this, don't say that......... yet its expected of the dealer to drop his drawers and still provide red carpet service.......
.
I dare you guys to go to the grocery store and ask to see their invoice for the apples you just bought and offer them a dime less.......:rolleyes:
.
.
Personally, if I feel the customer is straight up then he's gonna get my best attention.

roostwear
12-21-2006, 05:37 PM
See? There's mistake #1..... talking to a salesman. Go straight to fleet, or they'll four square your ass. Right Ziggy? LMAO...

Ziggy
12-21-2006, 05:55 PM
See? There's mistake #1..... talking to a salesman. Go straight to fleet, or they'll four square your ass. Right Ziggy? LMAO... I've never employed the 4 square method.
Not really sure how many still use the 4 square, but the back/forth to the manager is still there I'm sure, I'd say its still pretty dominate in the high volume car lines.
Highline car sales are usually a bit different in the way customers are handled, different breed of buyer.

soupersonic
12-21-2006, 06:04 PM
I love dealership stories.
The wife and I went to Tempe Dodge and found a used 1 year old Jeep wrangler.It was red with 6000 miles on it.We drove it, loved it,wanted to buy it.Asked the saleman how much, he takes us to his manager.The guy says "sign here" . Wouldnt tell us how much they wanted for the Jeep until we signed. My wife bitched him up one side and down the other. OMFG never seen her so :mad: We bought a new Jeep that day from Pitre in Scottsdale :D

Jbb
12-21-2006, 06:04 PM
Is Jasper jeep one of the dealers you have spoken with?
I know a ton of people who have bought from them....and when a jeep was in my shop,I always got body parts from them....pretty popular Jeep dealership
http://www.jasperjeep.com/en_US/

ratso
12-22-2006, 08:32 AM
I've never employed the 4 square method.
Not really sure how many still use the 4 square, but the back/forth to the manager is still there I'm sure, I'd say its still pretty dominate in the high volume car lines.
Highline car sales are usually a bit different in the way customers are handled, different breed of buyer.
I agree... you weed out a lot of deadbeat buyers there... whole different approach.
A buddy of mine in the business says it takes him 45 minutes to get ready each morning... 15 to get dressed and 30 to stand in front of the mirror and practice lying to himself lol...:D

TexasChopper
12-22-2006, 11:05 AM
Is Jasper jeep one of the dealers you have spoken with?
I know a ton of people who have bought from them....and when a jeep was in my shop,I always got body parts from them....pretty popular Jeep dealership
http://www.jasperjeep.com/en_US/
Jasper was one of the first places I called and they do not have any Sahara's in stock. There are actually only 2 Black Sahara's in the Atlanta market right now. I know they can DX one but I was looking fro in stock

TexasChopper
12-22-2006, 11:06 AM
read this b/s I got via email from a dealer in SC
As in all vehicle purchases, it really doesn't matter what you get for your car, or what we sell our car for, it's really the difference of out of pocket expense. Do you have a set "out the door" figure that you are trying to get to?
Brian Ordini
Internet Sales Manager
Myrtle Beach Chrysler Jeep
(843) 448 - 1191
(866) 496 - 2260 Toll Free
(609) 477-9242 Cell

ratso
12-22-2006, 11:21 AM
read this b/s I got via email from a dealer in SC
As in all vehicle purchases, it really doesn't matter what you get for your car, or what we sell our car for, it's really the difference of out of pocket expense. Do you have a set "out the door" figure that you are trying to get to?
Brian Ordini
Internet Sales Manager
Myrtle Beach Chrysler Jeep
(843) 448 - 1191
(866) 496 - 2260 Toll Free
(609) 477-9242 Cell
That is pretty much true. It's just a matter of shuffling the figures, and the difference you want to be at. Say dealer "A" has a vehicle for 20K and offer you 10K on your trade... difference is 10K plus tax etc... Dealer "B" has same vehicle for 18K (Hell of a deal) and they are only doing 7K on the trade, difference is 11K... I'd rather have the 20K deal and wittle em down another grand maybe... As he said, difference as far as out of pocket expense.:D

OGShocker
12-22-2006, 11:31 AM
ROTFLMAO :D :D :D
Personally, if I feel the customer is straight up then he's gonna get my best attention.
We're not talking BONER "straight up", are we?:eek:

Ziggy
12-22-2006, 12:22 PM
We're not talking BONER "straight up", are we?:eek:You're a sick, sick man...............:)
.

Magic34
12-22-2006, 12:38 PM
The last vehicle I bought where I didn't know someone at the dealership was a Toyota.
They busted out the 4 square, and then asked me how much was I looking for a month as a payment. I looked the salesman in the eye and started laughing really loud. I told him $75/month iwth 0 down. He went and got his manager, who went and got the GSM, who went and got the GM... Low and behold I ended up knowing the GM and we finally got down to business.
It took about 5 minutes from the time the salesman started to get to the GM.
Classic dealer tactics, you just need to get to the point.
NEVER talk payments, talk about price of the vehicle, then throw the trade into the mix after you have set the price for the vehicle and you will have realistic numbers.

TaylorJet
12-22-2006, 12:50 PM
ROTFLMAO :D :D :D
.
So many theories and the one that stands out the most to me is "buyers are liars".......don't tell them this, don't tell them that, don't say this, don't say that......... yet its expected of the dealer to drop his drawers and still provide red carpet service.......
.
I dare you guys to go to the grocery store and ask to see their invoice for the apples you just bought and offer them a dime less.......:rolleyes:
.
.
Personally, if I feel the customer is straight up then he's gonna get my best attention.
very well said, everyone thinks all car dealers are shisters,there are some of us out there that are good. u all wanna b**ch about car dealers, look at what you have paid for you camper or you boat. they made alot more than we make on a vehicle. we all have a living to make. don't group us all together.

mbrown2
12-22-2006, 12:54 PM
www.jeepwarehouse.com
$250 on top of their best price to get it here from Indiana....I am buying a vehicle in short supply, high demand, being built slower then other jeep models and with specific colors and options I want....
It needed to be ordered and I will wait but I am getting it for the best price I have canvased....get your money first before you go and talk to a dealer.

Ziggy
12-22-2006, 01:06 PM
NEVER talk payments, talk about price of the vehicle, then throw the trade into the mix after you have set the price for the vehicle and you will have realistic numbers.
There is your best advise right there........make the deal on the car you want by virtue of the actual sales price.........financing and leasing can then be taylored to best meet your needs.
Especially true in Calif is the fact you want the lowest sales price because you pay tax on the full sales amount, not the difference as in some other states. Better off to take less on the trade in and have the lower sales price/tax. than inflated values.

ratso
12-22-2006, 01:11 PM
There is your best advise right there........make the deal on the car you want by virtue of the actual sales price.........financing and leasing can then be taylored to best meet your needs.
Especially true in Calif is the fact you want the lowest sales price because you pay tax on the full sales amount, not the difference as in some other states. Better off to take less on the trade in and have the lower sales price/tax. than inflated values.
Wow... that's screwed up. We only pay taxes on the difference here.
A new law has where you pay tax on the real value of the vehicle though. Say you show a car for 5K and the actual value is 10K, you are paying taxes on 10K... They are trying to cover those under the counter and cash deals that "someone like myself" would never do...:D

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 02:09 PM
I do pretty well buying cars and such. Most of the reason is that the first thing I do is tell the first nose-picker that shows up to go get me someone with negotiating authority. They ususally look pretty confused, and go get the sales manager. So here I am sitting across from the sales manager now. I say three things right away.
1) If you even pull out a piece of paper with four squares on it I walk away immediately...
2) I am in sales, and will give him straight questions if he gives me straight answers. If you need to leave the room to go "try to talk someone into the new numbers" then you are the wrong guy for me. I need to be speaking with them.
3) If he can come to terms with my price and trade (if I am trying to trade) I going to be buying a car from him today.
With the ground rules in place, I ususally use my trade as bait. I also use the financing as bait. Very shortly, after I hear some complaints about how much I want for my trade/how that is going to spoil everything I remove the trade from the negotiations, and start working on just the car being purchased. This is the first thing that usually throws them way off their game. Some more than others. If you keep it around as a concern, you can use it to walk later... "Hey I tried to make it work, I came halfway, I even said I would sell my own car... yada yada yada".
Before I even start, I have a list of "need to haves" on my vehicle, and one of the things I use as real leverage is a "What I don't want's" list as well. For example, they get a lot of money for navigation, which I say I don't need because I use my own... and, they get a lot of money for rims, which I don't want either. Essentially, I go in there with a custom-build list of available combinations that they won't have in one vehicle. i.e. most premium interior packages will have leather seats and nav. I don't want the nav. They usually get chrome rims with goofy tires... I just want the base stock rims. Get the picture? I also never say exactly what color I want... only the range of colors I want. Prefer black, but will take grey or silver for example. No tan interiors, only charcoal or black. I also always have an appointment in a couple of hours, so I can't possibly do it all today. Imaginary appointments are very easy to cancel it turns out, and it will imply both urgency and a sense of not giving a shit if you get it today. Remember, the pressure is on them to sell by new years... not you.
So with your dream car in mind, and the knowledge that whatever they have on the lot is what they are going to try ferociously to talk you into you have the advantage of "settling" instead of custom ordering a vehicle. Especially if you do it between now and the new year, because a custom vehicle won't post on this years numbers.
You are now talking with the manager, or someone like him. You know what you want to pay, you know what you want. They have talked you out of your trade requirement and you are working on the price. Never let them talk to you about payments. Shouldn't concern you. The payments are going to be what they are... that is only the loan you are talking about. We are negotiating the car PRICE right now. And that boils down to this... how much do you want to pay for the car?
Tell them that number. If it is realistic, you are still going to be talking to them in five minutes. If it isn't, you will be walking and trying another dealer but with a higher realistic number in your head. If you say "I want to pay $15,000" but you aren't going to touch that car for any reason for less than$18,000 you won't cover that space now. If you can easily come up the $3K, you are owned because he knows you don't know what it is worth or what you will pay. You need to leave and find another dealer at this point. But, let's say you are close and still talking. Now it comes down to the dance...
You have advantages at this point. He doesn't have the perfect car for you, and odds are great that there is at least $3,000 sitting on the table with options on any one of those cars that are close. Let's see... you want leather, no nav, stock wheels, black, premium interior. That probably only matches the little hot rod in the corner. But, that has trick rims on it and nav. They get $2400 for nav, and I guarantee I have seen it end up "free" if that is what is keeping you out of the car on December 31'st.
Let them reduce the price of the options and take the profit out of them for them. They will likely begrudgingly take off the trick rims because now they need to get some new take-offs for it... they'll do it to make the deal, but now some other car is getting trick rims.
Come to a deal on the price, and let them bone you on financing. 8.5% is fine with you... remember, you are only worried about the purchase price of the vehicle. Loosely act like you care what that will be per month. If you are really good, bring in a financial calculator that will give you your loan cost per month and know how to use it. Odds are great that he won't be able to do that without his computer... So again, advantage you.
Once you have settled on a price, if it is low enough you are going to get the full court press in "financing". They are going to try everything from solar tint to alarms that are already installed but will be removed if you don't buy them. Don't be a fool. Don't buy insurance, don't buy gap insurance, don't buy undercoating, don't buy scotch guard etc... This is where they are trying to make the profit that they didn't get on the purchase price. Just keep saying "No thanks".
Once you start negotiating the loan for real, make sure you add in Toby's line about the 5 day option contract. At this point, the salesman isn't going to let them walk... that is a major cause of stress at a dealership and you may just end up getting that 8.9% dropped down to something worth hanging on to right then and there. Don't even begin to start negotiating the loan rate until this point though. If you do, you will end up paying more for the car because they don't see the profit in the loan...
The worst boning they can get is if they stiff you for a loan and you re-fi it. You will pay loan fees to your bank or credit union, but they have to re-pay the back-end incentive check they get. A lot of times, the person who sells the bigger loan number can make thousands the next day for selling an 8% loan when the customer qualified for a 5.5% If they re-fi though, you have to pay that back because you were greedy. There's the rub.
So, using this method you will usually get the vehicle for the lowest price you are going to get it for, you will pay the least interest your credit score and the term will allow and you will be out of there in no time. You put the carrot out there for them... "If you meet my terms I will buy today". If they came through, they just sold a car.

VanDeano
12-22-2006, 02:25 PM
Best way to buy a car is to birng in the cash... setting 10k down on the table does wonders for making killer deals...
My girlfriend is a car dealer at Fletcher Jones in Newport Beach and I once asked if there ever was a Baller that came and bought a Mercedes with cash and she said that they are not allowed to take cash. There is some law for that..I could be wrong but that is what I thought...no cash.

Ziggy
12-22-2006, 02:27 PM
I never got the chance to deal with you Wes :( You forgot to mention the Impulse issues some buyers have... :D :D
Audry still like her Car?

Ziggy
12-22-2006, 02:32 PM
My girlfriend is a car dealer at Fletcher Jones in Newport Beach and I once asked if there ever was a Baller that came and bought a Mercedes with cash and she said that they are not allowed to take cash. There is some law for that..I could be wrong but that is what I thought...no cash.
Cash is acceptable but anything $10k or more has to be reported .........we done it on a few occassions.......Have had several buy their cars with a AMEX or Visa.....
.
The cash talks scenario is hogwash........its more dangerous to have on site, IRS reporting issues and all that crap. Easier to have a contract that gets funded and banks the money faster than you can take the cash to the bank.

TaylorJet
12-22-2006, 02:55 PM
I do pretty well buying cars and such. Most of the reason is that the first thing I do is tell the first nose-picker that shows up to go get me someone with negotiating authority. They ususally look pretty confused, and go get the sales manager. So here I am sitting across from the sales manager now. I say three things right away.
1) If you even pull out a piece of paper with four squares on it I walk away immediately...
2) I am in sales, and will give him straight questions if he gives me straight answers. If you need to leave the room to go "try to talk someone into the new numbers" then you are the wrong guy for me. I need to be speaking with them.
3) If he can come to terms with my price and trade (if I am trying to trade) I going to be buying a car from him today.
With the ground rules in place, I ususally use my trade as bait. I also use the financing as bait. Very shortly, after I hear some complaints about how much I want for my trade/how that is going to spoil everything I remove the trade from the negotiations, and start working on just the car being purchased. This is the first thing that usually throws them way off their game. Some more than others. If you keep it around as a concern, you can use it to walk later... "Hey I tried to make it work, I came halfway, I even said I would sell my own car... yada yada yada".
Before I even start, I have a list of "need to haves" on my vehicle, and one of the things I use as real leverage is a "What I don't want's" list as well. For example, they get a lot of money for navigation, which I say I don't need because I use my own... and, they get a lot of money for rims, which I don't want either. Essentially, I go in there with a custom-build list of available combinations that they won't have in one vehicle. i.e. most premium interior packages will have leather seats and nav. I don't want the nav. They usually get chrome rims with goofy tires... I just want the base stock rims. Get the picture? I also never say exactly what color I want... only the range of colors I want. Prefer black, but will take grey or silver for example. No tan interiors, only charcoal or black. I also always have an appointment in a couple of hours, so I can't possibly do it all today. Imaginary appointments are very easy to cancel it turns out, and it will imply both urgency and a sense of not giving a shit if you get it today. Remember, the pressure is on them to sell by new years... not you.
So with your dream car in mind, and the knowledge that whatever they have on the lot is what they are going to try ferociously to talk you into you have the advantage of "settling" instead of custom ordering a vehicle. Especially if you do it between now and the new year, because a custom vehicle won't post on this years numbers.
You are now talking with the manager, or someone like him. You know what you want to pay, you know what you want. They have talked you out of your trade requirement and you are working on the price. Never let them talk to you about payments. Shouldn't concern you. The payments are going to be what they are... that is only the loan you are talking about. We are negotiating the car PRICE right now. And that boils down to this... how much do you want to pay for the car?
Tell them that number. If it is realistic, you are still going to be talking to them in five minutes. If it isn't, you will be walking and trying another dealer but with a higher realistic number in your head. If you say "I want to pay $15,000" but you aren't going to touch that car for any reason for less than$18,000 you won't cover that space now. If you can easily come up the $3K, you are owned because he knows you don't know what it is worth or what you will pay. You need to leave and find another dealer at this point. But, let's say you are close and still talking. Now it comes down to the dance...
You have advantages at this point. He doesn't have the perfect car for you, and odds are great that there is at least $3,000 sitting on the table with options on any one of those cars that are close. Let's see... you want leather, no nav, stock wheels, black, premium interior. That probably only matches the little hot rod in the corner. But, that has trick rims on it and nav. They get $2400 for nav, and I guarantee I have seen it end up "free" if that is what is keeping you out of the car on December 31'st.
Let them reduce the price of the options and take the profit out of them for them. They will likely begrudgingly take off the trick rims because now they need to get some new take-offs for it... they'll do it to make the deal, but now some other car is getting trick rims.
Come to a deal on the price, and let them bone you on financing. 8.5% is fine with you... remember, you are only worried about the purchase price of the vehicle. Loosely act like you care what that will be per month. If you are really good, bring in a financial calculator that will give you your loan cost per month and know how to use it. Odds are great that he won't be able to do that without his computer... So again, advantage you.
Once you have settled on a price, if it is low enough you are going to get the full court press in "financing". They are going to try everything from solar tint to alarms that are already installed but will be removed if you don't buy them. Don't be a fool. Don't buy insurance, don't buy gap insurance, don't buy undercoating, don't buy scotch guard etc... This is where they are trying to make the profit that they didn't get on the purchase price. Just keep saying "No thanks".
Once you start negotiating the loan for real, make sure you add in Toby's line about the 5 day option contract. At this point, the salesman isn't going to let them walk... that is a major cause of stress at a dealership and you may just end up getting that 8.9% dropped down to something worth hanging on to right then and there. Don't even begin to start negotiating the loan rate until this point though. If you do, you will end up paying more for the car because they don't see the profit in the loan...
The worst boning they can get is if they stiff you for a loan and you re-fi it. You will pay loan fees to your bank or credit union, but they have to re-pay the back-end incentive check they get. A lot of times, the person who sells the bigger loan number can make thousands the next day for selling an 8% loan when the customer qualified for a 5.5% If they re-fi though, you have to pay that back because you were greedy. There's the rub.
So, using this method you will usually get the vehicle for the lowest price you are going to get it for, you will pay the least interest your credit score and the term will allow and you will be out of there in no time. You put the carrot out there for them... "If you meet my terms I will buy today". If they came through, they just sold a car.
JUST PROVES "BUYERS ARE LYERS" :) GOOD JOB

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 02:58 PM
I never got the chance to deal with you Wes :( You forgot to mention the Impulse issues some buyers have... :D :D
Audry still like her Car?
Yeah, she loves the brand of car, but regrets buying the wagon. We are thinking about getting her a 4 door Jeep right now that I will drive for a year until her lease is out, and then get into a 645 for me.
Black with rose interior please. Convertible.
Oh, and all of that stuff about buying cars... I meant from people other than you or Jay of course. ;)
Actually, in all sincerity that is true. With people who are going to shoot you straight in the first place, all of that goes out the window and you get down to brass tacks right away. I have a tough time envisioning you or Jay pulling out a four square. :D

roostwear
12-22-2006, 02:59 PM
very well said, everyone thinks all car dealers are shisters,there are some of us out there that are good. u all wanna b**ch about car dealers, look at what you have paid for you camper or you boat. they made alot more than we make on a vehicle. we all have a living to make. don't group us all together.
Every dealer thinks the factory is trying to screw them, and each manufacturer thinks the dealers are out to screw THEM. Cracks me up that there are only a handful in this industry that know both sides first hand. I call it job security....:D

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 03:02 PM
JUST PROVES "BUYERS ARE LYERS" :) GOOD JOB
I get your point, but it is inaccurate. It is just tilting the odds back into your favor a little bit more than normal.
If you know the odds in Vegas, it doesn't change them and it isn't cheating, but it will increase your chance of leaving with your money. Same deal here.
If you think about it, I am advising to remove the games. I am just showing you how to do it. I have taken away the ability to use "back end" on a loan to pay for my car. I have taken away the ability to use aftermarket parts or expensive options. I know you are motivated to sell me a car in the next eight days for financial reasons, and I know that the faster you can get me out the door in my new car the faster you can go find someone else to put a four square in front of.
I end up buying the car is the point. I just pay a reasonable price, let you make enough money to make it worthwhile and give you an opportunity to provide reasonable financing. If at any point of the negotiations you aren't able to make your part happen... I held up my end.
I don't go look at cars without the intention of buying one. If I like what I see and the deal is right, I leave with the car.
Speaking of which, I am selling my truck to buy a van. Anyone want it? :D

LAND_LOVER69
12-22-2006, 03:06 PM
I get your point, but it is inaccurate. It is just tilting the odds back into your favor a little bit more than normal.
If you know the odds in Vegas, it doesn't change them and it isn't cheating, but it will increase your chance of leaving with your money. Same deal here.
If you think about it, I am advising to remove the games. I am just showing you how to do it. I have taken away the ability to use "back end" on a loan to pay for my car. I have taken away the ability to use aftermarket parts or expensive options. I know you are motivated to sell me a car in the next eight days for financial reasons, and I know that the faster you can get me out the door in my new car the faster you can go find someone else to put a four square in front of.
I end up buying the car is the point. I just pay a reasonable price, let you make enough money to make it worthwhile and give you an opportunity to provide reasonable financing. If at any point of the negotiations you aren't able to make your part happen... I held up my end.
I don't go look at cars without the intention of buying one. If I like what I see and the deal is right, I leave with the car.
Speaking of which, I am selling my truck to buy a van. Anyone want it? :D
Yeah I'll buy your truck, but if you show me a four square I'm gonna get up and leave:rolleyes:

TaylorJet
12-22-2006, 03:07 PM
I get your point, but it is inaccurate. It is just tilting the odds back into your favor a little bit more than normal.
If you know the odds in Vegas, it doesn't change them and it isn't cheating, but it will increase your chance of leaving with your money. Same deal here.
If you think about it, I am advising to remove the games. I am just showing you how to do it. I have taken away the ability to use "back end" on a loan to pay for my car. I have taken away the ability to use aftermarket parts or expensive options. I know you are motivated to sell me a car in the next eight days for financial reasons, and I know that the faster you can get me out the door in my new car the faster you can go find someone else to put a four square in front of.
I end up buying the car is the point. I just pay a reasonable price, let you make enough money to make it worthwhile and give you an opportunity to provide reasonable financing. If at any point of the negotiations you aren't able to make your part happen... I held up my end.
I don't go look at cars without the intention of buying one. If I like what I see and the deal is right, I leave with the car.
Speaking of which, I am selling my truck to buy a van. Anyone want it? :D
I GUESS ITS ALL IN WHO YOU DEAL WITH,WE DON'T USE 4 SQUARES AND NO GAMES I DISCOUNT MY VEHICLE AND IF YOUR TRADING YOU GET WHAT EVER THE MARKET VALUE REALLY IS, NO SMOKIN MIRRORS, I DO THAT BECAUSE I WANT REPEAT BUSINESS, IF I CAN'T DO THIS JOB HONESTLY, THEN I WON'T DO IT. JUST DEPENDS ON WHO YOU GET AND WHAT THE DEALER MORALS ARE ALSO.

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 03:07 PM
Yeah I'll buy your truck, but if you show me a four square I'm gonna get up and leave:rolleyes:
How does a one-square grab you. $26,900 with everything...

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 03:09 PM
I GUESS ITS ALL IN WHO YOU DEAL WITH,WE DON'T USE 4 SQUARES AND NO GAMES I DISCOUNT MY VEHICLE AND IF YOUR TRADING YOU GET WHAT EVER THE MARKET VALUE REALLY IS, NO SMOKIN MIRRORS, I DO THAT BECAUSE I WANT REPEAT BUSINESS, IF I CAN'T DO THIS JOB HONESTLY, THEN I WON'T DO IT. JUST DEPENDS ON WHO YOU GET AND WHAT THE DEALER MORALS ARE ALSO.
Ask yourself this... "How would I feel if a well-dressed guy driving a very nice car came in here with his wife and told me that if I didn't play any games he would buy a car from me today?"
You would be stoked. Managers all smile, shake my hand and say this is going to be great. I let you make some money, and I know where you are going to make it. I also know where you are going to try to make more and I take that away from you by the time it is all said and done. When I leave, you will have sold a car, I will have bought one and you will have made some commission. Probably more than you would have made if I didn't show up too. Everyone is a winner.

LAND_LOVER69
12-22-2006, 03:11 PM
How does a one-square grab you. $26,900 with everything...
I would love to help you out and buy your truck. However I am a car salesman and because the general public thinks that car dealers shouldn't make any money off of them, I'm as broke as a joke!!!!!!:D

TaylorJet
12-22-2006, 03:14 PM
I Get Stoked Just Getting To Meet Nice People. They Make These Vehicles Everyday And You Can By Them Anywhere. It's All On How You As The Customer Is Treated Before And After The Sale. I Like To Have A Great Relationship With My Customers.

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 03:16 PM
I Get Stoked Just Getting To Meet Nice People. They Make These Vehicles Everyday And You Can By Them Anywhere. It's All On How You As The Customer Is Treated Before And After The Sale. I Like To Have A Great Relationship With My Customers.
Then you probably sell the shit out of some cars. I don't think that anything I suggested would make you as a salesman the slightest bit leery about doing business with me. In fact, if I printed that out, brought it in and said "I wrote this" I think you would say great... which one do you want to drive home today?"
Right?

Chromegorilla
12-22-2006, 03:20 PM
Cash is acceptable but anything $10k or more has to be reported .........we done it on a few occassions.......Have had several buy their cars with a AMEX or Visa.....
.
The cash talks scenario is hogwash........its more dangerous to have on site, IRS reporting issues and all that crap. Easier to have a contract that gets funded and banks the money faster than you can take the cash to the bank.
Comon..... I walk in with 50 large for a new car and plop it on your desk, I don't care what IRS paperwork needs to be filled out... you wouldn't turn it down.... don't care how much of a PITA it may be....
But you nailed it ziggy......ballers just whip out the plastic then have their accountants pay their cc bill....

TaylorJet
12-22-2006, 03:31 PM
Then you probably sell the shit out of some cars. I don't think that anything I suggested would make you as a salesman the slightest bit leery about doing business with me. In fact, if I printed that out, brought it in and said "I wrote this" I think you would say great... which one do you want to drive home today?"
Right?
YES I LOVE TO WORK WITH STRAIGHT FORWARD PEOPLE. I HAVE EVEN SHOWN THE INVOICE TO CUSTOMERS AND SAID OK THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE IT FROM THE FACTORY FOR, THEN I ASK THE CUSTOMER WHAT IS A FAIR PROFIT, OR HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK I SHOULD MAKE? IF THE CUSTOMER IS IN THE NEIBORHOOD OF 500 TO 800 PROFIT, I'M GONNA ROLL THE CAR. BY DOING THIS I DO TWO THINGS. I MAKE SURE THE CAR BUYING EXSPERIENCE FOR THE CUSTOMER IS NOT TIME CONSUMING AND PAINFUL FOR THEM. BUYING A NEW VEHICLE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN AND EXCITING. AND ALSO I HAVE PUT A CAR ON THE STREET AND THE HAPPY CUSTOMER WILL TELL EVERYONE ABOUT THEIR EXSPERIENCE. not sure on all the spelling :)

Magic34
12-22-2006, 03:34 PM
Cash or cashiers check, it all gets reported one way or another. If you deposit it less than $8k at a time it doesn't throw up any red flags at the bank for the IRS.
Since inventory is moved and everything has to be accounted for because of titles and DMV, I think it would be much harder to hide the cash from a $50k sale of a car much more difficult than someone manufacturing something.

Chromegorilla
12-22-2006, 03:41 PM
Last new vehichle I bought was for the wife. Earlier this year in March, wife wanted a new VW GLI. They have the exact one she wants. Black on black, loaded with every option. Local VW dealer was total tool and ended up walking out after being upfront and ready to buy right then...guess they thought they could wait for another sucker.... (car was pretty much brand new model) oh well...
Got home and called VW dealer in Charlotte. (about 2 hours north) and layed out what I wanted and what I was willing to pay. I told him all I wanted was a yes or no answer. I said if he could do it I would be there in 2 hours to buy it. He says "Let me call you back". I say no problem. He calls back 20 minutes later and say lets do it. I say I'm about to make a 4 hr drive round trip, this is straight up right? And I rehash the details I had stated earlier. He tells me he's ready to do it. I say ok see you in 2 hours.
I get there and the catch was he said he didn't have that car in stock.... first words out of my mouth were "Well, no sale unless you get the car we want in 2 days." He says OK... we go in he finds one in the VW network and says we found one, it's yours. Give us 2 days to get it and deliver it." I wasn't in the dealer for 30 minutes and it was a done deal that was very good to me numbers wise.
2 days later car shows up. looks great sign some papers and we got it. Goin throught the car and i was looking at the window sticker at it was the exact car from the local dealer here in town.
Best part of the story..... 2 weeks later i go to an SCCA autocross event at the BMW test facility near my house.... A guy has a silver GLI but not nearly as nice as my wifes. he comes over asks how I like it yadda yadda yadda..... Went to the whole story of the purchse.... refering to the local dealer as a bunch retards and f'n idiots..... morons....blah blah blah......
So after a while I notice when he walks over to his car he has a HUGE decal in the window with the name of the local dealer..... and in further conversation I find out he is the finance manager at the local VW.....:jawdrop: :D :) The moment of realization was great... I could only chuckle on the indside..... Just blastd him to his face and didn't even know...... :) :)

msc5195
12-22-2006, 03:46 PM
The last three that I bought I first built them on chevrolet.com and gmc.com. I then typed up a bid proposal and attached the bid sheet. I explained that I was in the market and they all had until said date and time to respond with their best out the door price including taxes and all fees. I explained that I would be buying that day and time and that i had check in hand. The vehicle must have ALL options listed. Must be color listed. Any missing option or wrong color would disqualify the vehicle. Any additional options would be considered based on price.In the letter I stated that this offer was being sent to 10 different dealers and I listed all 10 dealers, sales manager names and their contact numbers. With all this done, I faxed them all out. All of them responded and their was as much as 5000.00 difference in their prices. This worked for me.

TaylorJet
12-22-2006, 03:50 PM
Last new vehichle I bought was for the wife. Earlier this year in March, wife wanted a new VW GLI. They have the exact one she wants. Black on black, loaded with every option. Local VW dealer was total tool and ended up walking out after being upfront and ready to buy right then...guess they thought they could wait for another sucker.... (car was pretty much brand new model) oh well...
Got home and called VW dealer in Charlotte. (about 2 hours north) and layed out what I wanted and what I was willing to pay. I told him all I wanted was a yes or no answer. I said if he could do it I would be there in 2 hours to buy it. He says "Let me call you back". I say no problem. He calls back 20 minutes later and say lets do it. I say I'm about to make a 4 hr drive round trip, this is straight up right? And I rehash the details I had stated earlier. He tells me he's ready to do it. I say ok see you in 2 hours.
I get there and the catch was he said he didn't have that car in stock.... first words out of my mouth were "Well, no sale unless you get the car we want in 2 days." He says OK... we go in he finds one in the VW network and says we found one, it's yours. Give us 2 days to get it and deliver it." I wasn't in the dealer for 30 minutes and it was a done deal that was very good to me numbers wise.
2 days later car shows up. looks great sign some papers and we got it. Goin throught the car and i was looking at the window sticker at it was the exact car from the local dealer here in town.
Best part of the story..... 2 weeks later i go to an SCCA autocross event at the BMW test facility near my house.... A guy has a silver GLI but not nearly as nice as my wifes. he comes over asks how I like it yadda yadda yadda..... Went to the whole story of the purchse.... refering to the local dealer as a bunch retards and f'n idiots..... morons....blah blah blah......
So after a while I notice when he walks over to his car he has a HUGE decal in the window with the name of the local dealer..... and in further conversation I find out he is the finance manager at the local VW.....:jawdrop: :D :) The moment of realization was great... I could only chuckle on the indside..... Just blastd him to his face and didn't even know...... :) :)
how much did you save?

LAND_LOVER69
12-22-2006, 03:57 PM
The last three that I bought I first built them on chevrolet.com and gmc.com. I then typed up a bid proposal and attached the bid sheet. I explained that I was in the market and they all had until said date and time to respond with their best out the door price including taxes and all fees. I explained that I would be buying that day and time and that i had check in hand. The vehicle must have ALL options listed. Must be color listed. Any missing option or wrong color would disqualify the vehicle. Any additional options would be considered based on price.In the letter I stated that this offer was being sent to 10 different dealers and I listed all 10 dealers, sales manager names and their contact numbers. With all this done, I faxed them all out. All of them responded and their was as much as 5000.00 difference in their prices. This worked for me.
Well I'm glad it worked for ya!!!! The last time I recieved one of these over the fax I put it in the round file! My way of thinking is that if you don't have time to come to my dealership and shop price then I don't have time to give you a price! I try not to be a dick about it but I just think that whole faxing out a bid is down right rude! Only time that works for me is when it is the county I live in wants a truck or something.

Parker Dreamin
12-22-2006, 04:00 PM
what is this 4 square talk all about.. break it down for me.

Parker Dreamin
12-22-2006, 04:02 PM
Well I'm glad it worked for ya!!!! The last time I recieved one of these over the fax I put it in the round file! My way of thinking is that if you don't have time to come to my dealership and shop price then I don't have time to give you a price! I try not to be a dick about it but I just think that whole faxing out a bid is down right rude! Only time that works for me is when it is the county I live in wants a truck or something.
so by doing that you did not even have a chance at the deal, seems pretty bright to me.

LAND_LOVER69
12-22-2006, 04:04 PM
so by doing that you did not even have a chance at the deal, seems pretty bright to me.
Like I said I try not to be a dick about it! If someone thinks they are too good to talk to a salesman I don't want anything to do with him! Sorry if you think that's wrong but I don't do business that way!

Ziggy
12-22-2006, 04:05 PM
Comon..... I walk in with 50 large for a new car and plop it on your desk, I don't care what IRS paperwork needs to be filled out... you wouldn't turn it down.... don't care how much of a PITA it may be....
But you nailed it ziggy......ballers just whip out the plastic then have their accountants pay their cc bill....
I didn't say I wouldn't take a cash deal, I just said it doesn't normally sway a dealer to give a better deal.
.
So you must be in the Greer, Spartanville area eh?

LAND_LOVER69
12-22-2006, 04:11 PM
Comon..... I walk in with 50 large for a new car and plop it on your desk, I don't care what IRS paperwork needs to be filled out... you wouldn't turn it down.... don't care how much of a PITA it may be....
But you nailed it ziggy......ballers just whip out the plastic then have their accountants pay their cc bill....
I had this hillbilly come in my dealership one time with a 6 month old Dodge 4x4 and 20 g's in a bag. Offered me the cash and the truck for a used H2. I shook his hand and told him to go to the bank and get me a check for the 20g's while I get his paperwork ready! He still had to report the cash to the IRS but I got out of counting the money!:D

HocusPocus
12-22-2006, 05:57 PM
All i did was call Tina (finance dept) at Frahm Dodge and told her what i wanted. she called me back a short time later with the exact truck and options i was looking for, then quoted me a price that sounded too good to be true. The wife and i drove down that night signed the paper work and took the truck home. I paid the truck off 9 months later. I am now waiting for the new Challenger (http://www.dodge.com/en/challenger/index.html?bid=1758118&adid=39176700&pid=12206058) to come out and i will call her again. No Games, No BS :D

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 06:06 PM
All i did was call Tina (finance dept) at Frahm Dodge and told her what i wanted. she called me back a short time later with the exact truck and options i was looking for, then quoted me a price that sounded too good to be true. The wife and i drove down that night signed the paper work and took the truck home. I paid the truck off 9 months later. I am now waiting for the new Challenger (http://www.dodge.com/en/challenger/index.html?bid=1758118&adid=39176700&pid=12206058) to come out and i will call her again. No Games, No BS :D
Tina is another one. Seems like the ***boater salesmen (and women...) really know the score.
Since we are running Ilmor's now, I am probably switching teams back to Dodge, and Tina will certainly be getting a call. I have wanted a twin turbo Viper for years, and I still love the Dodge trucks. Too bad they don't make a descent van that will pull the boat.
I like 'em though.

Chromegorilla
12-23-2006, 09:20 AM
how much did you save?
A little more than 5K

TexasChopper
12-23-2006, 10:40 AM
[QUOTE=26LAVEY525;2307738]7.75% is not a bad rateQUOTE]
I went to my own bank and got 6.25%. They are sending me out a blank check, and I'm buying one somewhere next week

ratso
12-23-2006, 11:22 AM
All i did was call Tina (finance dept) at Frahm Dodge and told her what i wanted. she called me back a short time later with the exact truck and options i was looking for, then quoted me a price that sounded too good to be true. The wife and i drove down that night signed the paper work and took the truck home. I paid the truck off 9 months later. I am now waiting for the new Challenger (http://www.dodge.com/en/challenger/index.html?bid=1758118&adid=39176700&pid=12206058) to come out and i will call her again. No Games, No BS :D
I like those Challengers...

mbrown2
12-23-2006, 12:02 PM
I like those Challengers...
So do I but I am thinking you need to get in line now for one.

HocusPocus
12-23-2006, 12:15 PM
I like those Challengers...
i had a 70 challenger way back when they were cheap and no one wanted them, so im hoping the new ones with the hemi will be less expensive then an original one with a hemi. :D
So do I but I am thinking you need to get in line now for one.
im sure there will be a waiting list and most likely a big dealer markup when they hit the showroom so i wont be the first to get one in my driveway but i will get one. :idea:

mbrown2
12-23-2006, 12:31 PM
im sure there will be a waiting list and most likely a big dealer markup when they hit the showroom so i wont be the first to get one in my driveway but i will get one. :idea:
Certain dealers you can get in line now and not pay a markup...however due to the line length already and the dealers allotment you may wait a year after release for your turn/order to come in....
I have an 300 SRT8 and waited 9 months after their release when dealers were still charging a premium over sticker....found a guy with a used one with 3K Miles and the 100K warranty paid for 2K under sticker price....guy was hurting for money....I will definitely keep my eye out for the challenger...that's going to be a sick ride.