Question for the engine builders...

[JAY4SPEED]

I need a good reliable cylinder bore gauge. What are the better names to look for when looking for one? I don't need an industrial one, it won't be used all that often, just need it to be accurate. Any suggestions?
Jay

[curtis73]

I bought a Tavia gauge to keep around. I don't do any machine work at home, but its nice to know what you have before the machine shop gives you bad news. My Tavia has been very accurate. Its at least accurate enough that I haven't been surprised yet.

[GofastRacer]

"Mitutoyo", not sure but I think they make them for Tavia??..

[George Pataki]

"Mitutoyo", not sure but I think they make them for Tavia??..
Yes like gofatracer said Mitutoyo you can purchase them from J&L tool or mscdirect.com I think there around 100.00 to 150.00 if you're using it to set bearings make sure you get the .0000 tenths indicator.

[steelcomp]

I use an SPI...very similar to the Mitutoyo. Reads in tenths, range from 2"-6", p/n 24-377-4. Very nice tool, and less expensive than the Mit.

[Moneypitt]

I use an SPI...very similar to the Mitutoyo. Reads in tenths, range from 2"-6", p/n 24-377-4. Very nice tool, and less expensive than the Mit.
I also have a SPI. So far it has done anything I ask it to. However, mine has to be set using a mic. Zeroed out to a certain bore size and used from there to gage the bore for size and cylinder trueness. All the ones I've used had to be zeroed to a mic or ring gage after attaching the desired extentions and shims...........MP

[steelcomp]

I also have a SPI. So far it has done anything I ask it to. However, mine has to be set using a mic. Zeroed out to a certain bore size and used from there to gage the bore for size and cylinder trueness. All the ones I've used had to be zeroed to a mic or ring gage after attaching the desired extentions and shims...........MPYep. Roger that. Using a mic is a pain in the butt, but have you ever priced a 4+" ring gauge?:sqeyes: I'll fumble with the mic a whole lot before I'll buy one of those. Having a mic stand helps...clamping a C-mic in a vise isn't necessarily a good thing.:)

[Infomaniac]

My home dial bore gage is a Fowler.

[JAY4SPEED]

Thanks for all the info fellas. I had a Central tools model a while back and it wasn't very accurate, I couldn't repeat the results, therefore I couldn't trust the results. I'll look into the others mentioned. The only ones I've ever used had to be setup with a mic beforehand. Is there some new way its done now? Ring gauge? I'm guessing thats a standard that the bore gauge is calibrated to?
Jay

[N281PONY]

I have had good luck with Enco tools in the past....not nearly as good as the Mitutoyo's but for the money the weekend hobbiest can't beatem
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=240-0116&PMPXNO=4822174&PARTPG=INLMK3

[Fiat48]

I have central mikes for "Yeah..it's about that size".
Mitutoyo mikes in the important sizes.
Sunnen dial bore gauges and a Sunnen setting fixture. Bought right used....they are worth what you give or more when you sell them. Problem is...you never sell them. But your wife and kids will when you depart.
Though I have the sunnen setting fixture I always verify my measurements with a Mitutoyo mike on the Sunnen dial bore gauge.

[JAY4SPEED]

OK, I have another one for y'all. I've only ever used bore gauges in cylinders, never had checked mains with a bore gauge before.
When your doing a mock up on mains, I'm assuming you install the bearings, torque the cap down and take a reading with the bore gauge. Does the bearing lining get scarred up from the contact points of the bore gauge?
Isn't there a very small amount of "bearing crush" that occurs when you torque down the main cap? Does that distorts the bearing when you remove it and then reinstall it permanantly?
Being a dealership Master tech and going to school for engine assembly for years, I've learned engine building the GM way of doing it. I've built and repaired more factory engines than I can remember. I've learned that the way I've been taught all along wasn't the most precise way of doing it, I'd even call it pretty damn sloppy. Plastigauge and let it fly was good enough here at the dealer. (We do bore gauge the cylinders) I know enough that this just isn't the way to go when building a reliable high HP motor. Precision is everything! Being around y'all on here has shown me the error of my ways and I want to learn how to do it correctly. Just wanted to say thanks for the help!
Jay

[Fiat48]

Is this a BBC or what?

[obnoxious001]

OK, I have another one for y'all. I've only ever used bore gauges in cylinders, never had checked mains with a bore gauge before.
When your doing a mock up on mains, I'm assuming you install the bearings, torque the cap down and take a reading with the bore gauge. Does the bearing lining get scarred up from the contact points of the bore gauge?
Isn't there a very small amount of "bearing crush" that occurs when you torque down the main cap? Does that distorts the bearing when you remove it and then reinstall it permanantly?
Being a dealership Master tech and going to school for engine assembly for years, I've learned engine building the GM way of doing it. I've built and repaired more factory engines than I can remember. I've learned that the way I've been taught all along wasn't the most precise way of doing it, I'd even call it pretty damn sloppy. Plastigauge and let it fly was good enough here at the dealer. (We do bore gauge the cylinders) I know enough that this just isn't the way to go when building a reliable high HP motor. Precision is everything! Being around y'all on here has shown me the error of my ways and I want to learn how to do it correctly. Just wanted to say thanks for the help!
Jay
The bearing crush won't be any different than if you torque and use plastigauge,, will it? One of the big advantages of using a dial bore gauge is checking the housing for out of round, and finding out if there are any tight spots that need to be addressed, in addition to getting the bearing clearances where you want them.
You will leave some marks on the bearing coating, but not enough to do any damage, assuming you use normal care doing your measurements.

[Morg]

OK I have done it one time but here goes.
Put the caps on without the mains. Check that first. My mains were .0015" tight. Almost like they had been surface & not line honed. When we did my block we not only checked for size but also for straightness, Are the mains not only sized but are they lind up corectly, Again mine were not. The bar would hit #2 & go no further. In fact we had to take off the mains to get the bar out of the block.
So off to the line hone. To long to get into here but, it was not just put it in, work a bit & hope for the best. After the mains were checked & at size, the bar was then tried. It flew through the mains & hit the rim of the hone machinge. Perfect.
Then the proccess of installing the bearings & checking for size could begin. I was surprised to see different brands differed in size.
Like said above this was my first motor build. My learning curve was huge. Need to do another build soon to reinstate many of the lessons learned.

[GofastRacer]

Pretty interesting huh, huge difference between "assembling" and "building" a motor huh!..:D

[JAY4SPEED]

Is this a BBC or what?
Yes, a Dart tall deck in particular. I'll be purchasing it soon. Trying to decide on splayed billet steel caps or the ductile iron. I don't know enough about either yet, still trying to do the research
OK I have done it one time but here goes.
Put the caps on without the mains. Check that first. My mains were .0015" tight. Almost like they had been surface & not line honed. When we did my block we not only checked for size but also for straightness, Are the mains not only sized but are they lind up corectly, Again mine were not. The bar would hit #2 & go no further. In fact we had to take off the mains to get the bar out of the block.
So off to the line hone. To long to get into here but, it was not just put it in, work a bit & hope for the best. After the mains were checked & at size, the bar was then tried. It flew through the mains & hit the rim of the hone machinge. Perfect.
Then the proccess of installing the bearings & checking for size could begin. I was surprised to see different brands differed in size.
Like said above this was my first motor build. My learning curve was huge. Need to do another build soon to reinstate many of the lessons learned.
This is how I imagined it was done. I've seen the "go / no go" checking fixture you've discussed for checking bore alignment. Thats pretty trick stuff. When I do get the block, I'm going to go over it in great detail. I've heard you guys discuss that some of the blocks need work, even if they are new.
The bearing crush won't be any different than if you torque and use plastigauge,, will it? One of the big advantages of using a dial bore gauge is checking the housing for out of round, and finding out if there are any tight spots that need to be addressed, in addition to getting the bearing clearances where you want them.
You will leave some marks on the bearing coating, but not enough to do any damage, assuming you use normal care doing your measurements.
Thanks. What you've said about the plastigauge is true, I've just never thought of it that way. I just wasn't sure if the very light scuffs on the bearing lining would be detrimental to the oil flow over the bearing. I see that it wont be. I think we both know that I'm not referring to gouges, just the shiny marks it leaves behind as you rock it in the bore. So the compression that the bearing takes when the mains are torqued down is acceptible when the bearing is removed then reinstalled with the crank? For some reason, I have it in my head that once the bearings is compressed, even if its ever so slightly, it may not hold the tension against the block (main bearing bore) that it first did when it was first tightened. I keep thinking it would have more of a tendancy to spin the main because that initial "clamp" on the bearing wont be there the second time. I know you guys reinstall the bearings after checking clearances, but I just can't get that thought out of my head.
Pretty interesting huh, huge difference between "assembling" and "building" a motor huh!..:D
Yes Sir! You can say that again! On thing I learned when I was young, is to keep your mouth shut and ears open, no matter what you "think" you know, you can always learn more!:D
Jay

[Fiat48]

Since it is a new Dart block you will want to do some deburring. Torque the caps in and check the line hone size. 2.937 to 2.938 is spec. The tighter the finished line hone size....the tighter the bearing clearance will be because there will be more crush on the bearing. Desired is 2.9375 middle of spec.
If it is tighter than 2.937 or looser than 2.938 then there is a problem and it must be corrected. Critical area.
Then proceed to check your bearing clearance.
A few notes on Darts.....the soft plugs are not BBC standard size so don't buy a BBC soft plug kit cause it won't work. The extra head bolt kit for bolting the heads is way overpriced. Look to arp open stock for studs that will work.
The cam bearings are not BBC size. You either buy the special Dart cam bearing kit or by 3 sets of BBC cam bearings to make one set for the block.
Summers gear drives won't fit (unless highly modified) due to the front cam bolt configuration.
You must use the tall roller lifters and not the standard length BBC roller lifters.
Darts I have done the machine work has been good. Last one I got the block was actually square...which is quite rare.

[GofastRacer]

Yes, a Dart tall deck in particular. I'll be purchasing it soon. Trying to decide on splayed billet steel caps or the ductile iron. I don't know enough about either yet, still trying to do the research
I just bought a Sportsman with the ductile iron caps and they are stout, don't see any problems on N/A deal. This one is going to be a blown alky deal so I will be using studs!..
What you've said about the plastigauge is true, I've just never thought of it that way.
I relied on plastiguage once said I had .003, when the bearings went away I found out I had less than .002 because the worn bearings showed around .002 clearance, that's when I learned how to use a mike and a bore guage. My opinion of plastiguage is, you may as well use news paper!..
On thing I learned when I was young, is to keep your mouth shut and ears open, no matter what you "think" you know, you can always learn more!:D
Very wise, I still do that because there's always someone out there that knows more than you do!..

[Fiat48]

Like the saying goes "All I bring to the table is 30 years of mistakes."
You'd be suprised at how many people have made up their mind already what they are going to do and how they are going to do it but pretend to ask questions when really all they want is confirmation that their original thoughts were the right one.
Yeah..read it twice. Stay open minded, stay away from "The Trick of the week" , believe only about 1/2 of the "How to build the BBC book".
LOL. Maybe I ought to have that put on my headstone. :D

[GofastRacer]

Got that right!..
"Maybe I ought to have that put on my headstone." :D :D

[Morg]

Very wise, I still do that because there's always someone out there that knows more than you do!..
So true, Always someone you can learn from, Beware of the ones that know all, yet those are the guys you can learn some of the most important lessons from.
As an overall lesson, for me the biggest lesson learned was how magic deos not apply here. Know what the spec's are & make it right. Good consistant work will build you one hell of a motor. Most if not all of my motor most guys would say it is all used up parts.
And Jay, you nailed it. Keep your mouth shut & you may just learn something. (I have to remind myself of this some times)

[GofastRacer]

Beware of the ones that know all, yet those are the guys you can learn some of the most important lessons from.
Yeah, the shit that you "don't" want to do!..:D

[Fiat48]

Oh yeah..one more thing on these darts. The rear oil galley plugs...they stick out and can interfere with the rear motor plate. So tap those deeper BEFORE final cleaning or be prepared to drill holes in your rear motor plate for them.

[GofastRacer]

Oh yeah..one more thing on these darts. The rear oil galley plugs...they stick out and can interfere with the rear motor plate. So tap those deeper BEFORE final cleaning or be prepared to drill holes in your rear motor plate for them.
So far from just looking at this block I see about 20 hours on this thing, LOL...
What do you normally put in for restrictors in the front of the block???..

[Fiat48]

On a conventional bbc I use the little screw in Moroso deals and drill them to .080. That is for solid roller only. On the Dart I did not use restrictors at all since it oils the mains similar to what a small block does....what Chevy should have done in the first place.
I could have restricted the lifters on the dart but felt giving up a little windage was worth the added valve spring life in lubrication and cooling.
Besides I can just put another pulley on top and get the power lost back and then some.
Whatcha mean 20 hours? Where's those guys that put em together on a weekend while drinking beer and make 1000Hp on the dyno?
Get em to help you son....you need help. :D
When you gonna start on this thing? Maybe I can get mine down for an inspection and see if there is anything I don't like.

[JAY4SPEED]

Bob, priceless info! I'm making a list of things that you said above to do with the block once it gets here.
I'm going to order the block in a few weeks or so.
I think I'll wait to get the crank until after I have the rods and pistons on hand to calculate bobweight. I'm guessing I could have Lunati turn down the counterweights once I have the bobweight info in order to help to get them to balance it on the money.
I'll have to go until I run out of money, then recouperate and get started again. I'm thinking it may take a little while...:) I have to rebuy a lot of the tools I had for engine assy. We had 5 feet of saltwater in my shop from the hurricane. I lost all my mics, torque wrenches etc. But, I look at it as a chance to upgrade to better stuff anyways, the tools I had before were junk.
At least thats the plan so far.....until I learn something else new :D
Jay

[BIGCHRIS]

As an overall lesson, for me the biggest lesson learned was how magic deos not apply here. Know what the spec's are & make it right. Good consistant work will build you one hell of a motor. Most if not all of my motor most guys would say it is all used up parts.
And Jay, you nailed it. Keep your mouth shut & you may just learn something. (I have to remind myself of this some times)[/QUOTE]
Morg you are a 100% right learn the specs and do it till its right,because if its not right no matter how bad you want it to work it wont .

[GofastRacer]

On a conventional bbc I use the little screw in Moroso deals and drill them to .080. That is for solid roller only. On the Dart I did not use restrictors at all since it oils the mains similar to what a small block does....what Chevy should have done in the first place.
I could have restricted the lifters on the dart but felt giving up a little windage was worth the added valve spring life in lubrication and cooling.
Besides I can just put another pulley on top and get the power lost back and then some.[/QUOTE
Yeah I use those Moroso deals too on factory blocks too, I was just wondering with the priority oiling of the Dart if you still get as much oil up on top as the factory blocks, since this is an endurance deal I'd hate to fill the valve covers with oil!...
[QUOTE]Whatcha mean 20 hours? Where's those guys that put em together on a weekend while drinking beer and make 1000Hp on the dyno?
Get em to help you son....you need help. :D
When you gonna start on this thing? Maybe I can get mine down for an inspection and see if there is anything I don't like.
That's some funny shit there, lol..
Probably start this weekend, still waiting for the main studs should have them next week, just got the rings and pins(got a pretty good deal from C&A)so I'm close to machine work!..

[Roaddogg 4040]

Hey Art, since I am one of the know it all guys I will just start keeping my mouth shut and anything that you need to know you can just ask Rosie...:D :D :D PS The pan is on the way...
Steve

[GofastRacer]

Hey Art, since I am one of the know it all guys I will just start keeping my mouth shut and anything that you need to know you can just ask Rosie...:D :D :D PS The pan is on the way...
Steve
Sounds good to me, LOL... Did you pay for the pan or do I pay for it when it comes???..