Opinion on new hull design-with jet drive

[vtec]

I wanna get your opinions on a potential hull design with a jet drive. The boat would be a 28 foot catamaran with a centerpod that is flush (or protruding) below the outside sponsons. (so it's not really a true catamaran)
I've seen some of these river racers that go 120 mph and I would be hoping to get to 100mph.
Is this doable with a 28 footer and a jet drive?
I know it could be done with a stern drive, but the high performance stern drives are soooooo expensive.
I figure it's alot cheaper to add more horsepower than to improve the effiency of the drive, i.e. stern vs. jet.
Any thoughts?

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Its already been done! Froggystyle has "Trident Boats" and they have a killer dual jet drive cat. I think he is going to the I/O option as well. It would take some good hp to get a boat that size to 100mph.

[75MillerJet]

I wanna see pics of these biggy's with jets you speak of...

[squirt'nmyload]

I wanna see pics of these biggy's with jets you speak of...
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/squirtnmyload/Drives.jpg
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/squirtnmyload/BeachRightFront.jpg
http://www.tridentboats.com

[vtec]

Nice boat.
But......way over priced in my opinion.
And....are those dual jets proven to be more efficient?

[77Woodbridge]

Nice boat.
But......way over priced in my opinion.
And....are those dual jets proven to be more efficient?
Not trying to beef...but. You're asking for opinions and criticizing someone elses work. :confused:

[75MillerJet]

wow pretty sick if u ask me

[Wicked Performance Boats]

Is this doable with a 28 footer and a jet drive?
I know it could be done with a stern drive, but the high performance stern drives are soooooo expensive. You want a cheap 120mph boat? and you don't even have a hull design? Talk about reaching for the moon! Budlight

[wsuwrhr]

You want a cheap 120mph boat? and you don't even have a hull design? Talk about reaching for the moon! Budlight
Yep,
I agree.
just another typical jet owner, cheap.
Brian

[vtec]

A. I've got a hull design.(Actually, I have a lot of them-most not of my own design) (easy for me to change bottom angles etc. I just change some lines and surface on my computer). Easy to scan the bottoms of competitors boats as well. I have access(for just about free) to 5 axis milling machines and all the other associated equipment. I'm also versed in patent suits/litigation and all the other costs of doing business in the engineering world.
B. Jet owners are cheap. Well, I'm in the jet forum..........
C. If yours/mine budget was unlimited....would you really buy a jet?
D. How fast is the Trident? MPH/price. I can buy a used skater for 150K.
E. my question is really - Are jet boats this mass dependant?
F. The other twin jet drive boat I'm familiar with goes 60 some mph with over 800 hp. HMMM....................

[Froggystyle]

A. I've got a hull design.(Actually, I have a lot of them-most not of my own design) (easy for me to change bottom angles etc. I just change some lines and surface on my computer). Easy to scan the bottoms of competitors boats as well. I have access(for just about free) to 5 axis milling machines and all the other associated equipment. I'm also versed in patent suits/litigation and all the other costs of doing business in the engineering world.
B. Jet owners are cheap. Well, I'm in the jet forum..........
C. If yours/mine budget was unlimited....would you really buy a jet?
D. How fast is the Trident? MPH/price. I can buy a used skater for 150K.
E. my question is really - Are jet boats this mass dependant?
F. The other twin jet drive boat I'm familiar with goes 60 some mph with over 800 hp. HMMM....................
Well, you sound like the kind of businessman we all love around here. Willing to take someone elses hard work, criticize it, then splash it, "change a few angles" to get around IP and take your free 5 axis milling machine and undercut what it cost them to get started and start into the boat business!
Sounds like a plan... where do I sign up?
You made a hell of a start here dude...

[Taylorman]

Nice boat.
But......way over priced in my opinion.
And....are those dual jets proven to be more efficient?
If you have to ask that question, then you obviously have not been around jet boats enough to start building them. Sounds like i know more about them just from reading on the internet than you do, and you want to start a boat company. Im with Froggy, come up with your own idea.

[Froggystyle]

And by the way... show me where you can find a used Skater in great shape for $150K?
While I'm on the subject... feel free to show me any boat built using resin-infusion, linear foam core, drop down front ramp, side swimstep, 160 pieces of proprietary billet hardware, $15K+ stereo, modular interior, triple axle trailer, premium rigging and an Ilmor V-10 with a Teague platinum drive for under $150K.
Post the link if you have one. It doesn't even have to have the ramp, swimstep or linear foam core. Nobody can follow that lead yet, so just stick to the other basics of our package.

[vtec]

A. I'm not stealing "your" "design".
B. I paid for more than one design, with a license to build. And are you paying Ray Hunt for the strakes on your boat.
C. I wasn't trying to insult the trident boat people. In fact, I didn't know this was their forum.

[vtec]

Blank sheet of paper...............
AKA Eliminator, DCB drawings...............

[Froggystyle]

A. I'm not stealing "your" "design".
B. I paid for more than one design, with a license to build. And are you paying Ray Hunt for the strakes on your boat.
C. I wasn't trying to insult the trident boat people. In fact, I didn't know this was their forum.
A) Wasn't claiming you were. You were talking about stealing someones. Exact word were... I believe.. "Easy to scan the bottoms of competitors boats as well. " That sounds as close to straight up theft as anyone looking to start a boat company has said around here recently. At least you are honest about it though.
B) I am paying nobody for anything on our boat. I commissioned the entire hull to be built by a naval architect from scratch, then paid to have the entire design tooled from a pile of plywood or CAD cut from foam.
C) You are insulting everyone, Trident boats included. This forum is pretty savvy at singling out schysters.

[Froggystyle]

Blank sheet of paper...............
AKA Eliminator, DCB drawings...............
What a turnaround in only six posts. Somehow you went from scanning someone elses bottom, changing some surfaces and splashing them in CAD to a blank sheet of paper.
BTW... of the two you noted, one started with a blank sheet of paper.

[vtec]

We have a whole building of our competitors products - not boats (automotive).
Most manufacturing companies benchmark their competitors products.
Your nav. arch. started out with an Eliminator.

[Froggystyle]

We have a whole building of our competitors products - not boats (automotive).
Most manufacturing companies benchmark their competitors products.
Your nav. arch. started out with an Eliminator.
You keep saying things that lead me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about. My "nav. arch" started out with a blank screen and a two page list of requirements. You show me an Eliminator that even has a center sponson, or a hydro design.
You sir, appear to be a buffoon.

[Wicked Performance Boats]

It's pretty amazing!! vtec knows the naval arcitect that has an eliminator that he splashed to design your boats!!!!! Damm he's the man! Budlight:confused:

[vtec]

Why don't we go back to the original topic. I have no intention of turning this into the Trident thread. I'm sure it's a nice boat, and the owner of the company obviously want's to defend his product, and his friends want to defend him.

[Taylorman]

You sir, appear to be a buffoon.
Thats funny, i don't care who you are.

[taylormanss]

you tell him taylorman!!!!!!!!! tell him to kiss your ass!

[DEL51]

we are all cheap? Wow! That is very different observation. Nuthing wrong with getting a bigger boat but many here have stuff for the smaller lakes and really do not want a larger boat. If I can improve my cheap little boat by discussing things on these forums, better yet. The thing you may not understand is alot of these folks,Including me, are happy tinkering and modifying what we have. Froggy's new design is a very unique, well thought out design.Many of the people on the board have followed his operation from the initial start up.You May want to Put some butter on your foot. It will make it easier to remove from your mouth the next time.Good Luck and Have a nice day.

[Froggystyle]

Why don't we go back to the original topic. I have no intention of turning this into the Trident thread. I'm sure it's a nice boat, and the owner of the company obviously want's to defend his product, and his friends want to defend him.
Wanna know something funny? I haven't met a single person on this thread yet. These are just folks with a sense of integrity that know someone without it when they see it.
I'm not defending my product either, I am criticizing you for a poorly constructed attempt at pilfering someone elses ideas, weaseling out of IP concerns, casting aspersions on others hard work and calling a question posed by a first time poster on ***boat "market research".
I just call it as I see it. I don't appear to be alone in my view however.
BTW... Thanks friends. It is folks like you that make this place great at times. Hopefully we will re-visit the jet drive in the future, but for now it is time to make some money off this thing...

[LAFD]

RD SUX!!!!!:)

[HotRod Sprint]

RD SUX!!!!!:)
Now that's funny, I haven't seen that in a while.
Oh, by the way, vtec just go away, nobody wants your kind around here!
Rod

[OverKill]

So perhaps I have some Ideas of my own. If I perchased one of the Gullwings from Wicked Performace and Hacked it all up to my likeing, then splashed 10 or 20 of them would that be OK???;)

[UBFJ #454]

You show me an Eliminator that even has a center sponson, or a hydro design.
Wes ... Not getting in the middle of this nonsense, just some history .....
Eliminator Daytonas all have center sponsons ... Way back, Ron Edhe designed the Daytonas and adapted the center sponson/tunnel design to the Daytona from other hulls he had designed before Bob Leach had him do the Daytona.
Jak

[Wicked Performance Boats]

So perhaps I have some Ideas of my own. If I perchased one of the Gullwings from Wicked Performace and Hacked it all up to my likeing, then splashed 10 or 20 of them would that be OK???;)
NO NO NO:mad: What brought that on?

[vtec]

[QUOTE=Oh, by the way, vtec just go away, nobody wants your kind around here!
Rod[/QUOTE]
My kind.................Hmmmmm...........
What is "my kind"

[vtec]

I'm not defending my product either, I am criticizing you for a poorly constructed attempt at pilfering someone elses ideas, weaseling out of IP concerns, casting aspersions on others hard work and calling a question posed by a first time poster on ***boat "market research".
...
I post on other boards. This board seemed to have the most jet drive activity, and thus the reason I posted here.
Should there they be something negative about being a "first time poster".
And all the other asertions are false. What you call "weaseling out of IP concerns" is the normal course business in the litigious automotive business. Think about how auto racing teams deal with "copying". Your design is an evolution of something, i.e. it has lifting strakes, two/three sponsons that taper to a point in the front, rear propulsion, sandwich construction, resin infusion, bulkheads, tunnel exit area that is greater than tunnel intake area, etc., all of which were not invented by your "designer".
There are two sides to this "copying issue". If one incorporates all "new ideas" he will probably have design features that failed in the past when tried by others - so why do it again. If the "absolute best design" is already existing - why would anybody design anything different? Then when you incorporate proven successful design features- your a copycat. So by these arguments -one cannot win.
Obviously, your angry with my overpriced comment. Had I known it would offend, I wouldn't have made it.
And while I might be doing "market research" on a forum, you are "marketing".
Apparently, there isn't a large market for jet drives. They seem to be limited to smaller drag lake boats and large yachts(kamewa). Really, that's the jist of my question.

[OverKill]

NO NO NO:mad: What brought that on?
Exactley my point. No I would never take someone elses design and hard work to make myself an inch taller. I just think this guy needs to 86 himself and move on. NO IT IS NOT OK TO COPY, USE YOUR OWN IMAGINATION.;)

[dumbandyoung]

Exactley my point. No I would never take someone elses design and hard work to make myself an inch taller. I just think this guy needs to 86 himself and move on. NO IT IS NOT OK TO COPY, USE YOUR OWN IMAGINATION.;)
seriously. dude, vtec..can i sum this up
dont ask for advice and then treat everyones opinion like a dick. ..design your own stuff with your own imagination. and dont try and beat down a company that makes a great boat. and dont come on the forums talkin crap when you have no clue what your sayin.. maybe you should go buy a bayliner and call it a day:)

[DEL51]

Being a first time poster is not a bad thing but the way to introduce youself could be alot better. Maybe ask some more lighthearted questions and Don't assume that our forum contributors, in general, are one way or the other. You jumped right into it. I agree that every designer builds upon previous designs to a degree,no matter what field, but Froggy really went north when all other stayed the course and many doubted his setup would be viable. his setup is not out of range compared to other offerings in that size and a couple of smaller boats have started using the duel jet design.Froggy's hull and drive provide other options in performance boating that can be only achieved with a jet. You came across somewhat rough.Tough it out, repost, and lets hear your design intentions.

[HotRod Sprint]

My kind.................Hmmmmm...........
What is "my kind"
Beg borrow steal...your kind, STEAL!
Rod

[Jake W2]

I am not for stealing or making splashing moldes with some changes,but that is how every boat that is so great now came to be. Now they have laws to keep this from happing(splashing anyway)
All gullwings came from a Apollo fishing boat .For example
What about a PC,Mach one made from the Southwind design then changed.
What about a Stealth came froma a Cheyenne.
Anyway they have all been changed for the better.Or have they?you could type for ever about what came from what.
If these guys did not go this route we would not have the boats we have today.
Good luck with this one.
I was boating at the end of last summer in my 20 Baja Outlaw missing my jet as allways saw a new style bowrider never would have gave a nother look but happned to see it was a twin jet ,merk jets I think pulling kids on tubes and I was thinking how safe that boat is for new boaters and easy to take care of.Then they sucked up a rope HAHA HA they will learn.
Market would be 20 footer with wake board tower loud speakers and plenty of storage space.And make it Sea Doo 4 stroke supper charged maintence free type deal.
I love hotrod boats but there is no market for them any where but Cali.Where I boat you would think the only market would be for Crownlines dont they sell more Crownlines a year than all cali boat makers togeather?
Jake

[Froggystyle]

I am not for stealing or making splashing moldes with some changes,but that is how every boat that is so great now came to be. Now they have laws to keep this from happing(splashing anyway)
All gullwings came from a Apollo fishing boat .For example
What about a PC,Mach one made from the Southwind design then changed.
What about a Stealth came froma a Cheyenne.
Anyway they have all been changed for the better.Or have they?you could type for ever about what came from what.
If these guys did not go this route we would not have the boats we have today.
Good luck with this one.
Sounds like if things had gone properly, Southwind, Cheyenne and Apollo would have profitted greatly from all of those splashes. Licensing alone would have made them millionaires.
You know how many runabouts have the "Bahner" bottom? Basically all I have ever been in probably. That doesn't make it ethical.
If these guys "did not go this route" the inventors would have profitted from their innovations, the boat industry still would have gotten the boats and we wouldn't resemble a penal colony, with many companies built on the original premise of theft.
Also FYI, it isn't how every great boat came to be. Ron Ehde designed the original Daytona 19'. He licensed the molds to Bob Leach, who as a boating visionary saw the benefit of the hull and paid Ron per boat to build out of it. After a period of time, Ron built another modified version of it with a different center sponson, and sold both molds to Bob. That is how it should be done. Nearly every Daytona built for years was a derivative of this hull and design, and Ron profitted from it. In retrospect, the thing to do would have been take royalties, but whatever...
Nobody will try to compete with the Sea Doo except possibly Yamaha. The price as low and the quality is as high as you could imagine getting them for that boat, and you couldn't compete. You won't build a custom boat with that goal for less than the retail price of the SeaDoo, and unless you dumped a pile of money into design, you aren't beating their hull design for the intended purpose.
I never knock those boats. If I was a new boater, I might strongly consider one.

[Jake W2]

Hey you have very good points and should you are in the boat buis.And I am on your side but no one pissed because their CP is the shit nor do they care what it was stole from.So there is the double standerd these guys on this thread have boats made from boats saying is not the way to go ask them if they hate their boat manfs.
Ok my statment of every great boat should have been alot of grat boats.
I still say market 20 entry level hull and make it stand out from the rest no wood no carpet or snap in lots of billit and ano ect .
Jake

[Jake W2]

Allso dident the Bahner bottom come from the Southwind bottom that came from the Hornet bottom. Cant rember if its a delta or not.
Look at what HTM had to go through with people trying to coppie that bottom.
Jake

[Froggystyle]

Hey you have very good points and should you are in the boat buis.And I am on your side but no one pissed because their CP is the shit nor do they care what it was stole from.So there is the double standerd these guys on this thread have boats made from boats saying is not the way to go ask them if they hate their boat manfs.
Ok my statment of every great boat should have been alot of grat boats.
I still say market 20 entry level hull and make it stand out from the rest no wood no carpet or snap in lots of billit and ano ect .
Jake
Nobody would buy it. My cost to build on our boat is well over $95K just in parts, not including labor or overhead. If it was a 23' it would cost the same, but I couldn't sell it for what I need to and stay in business. I firmly believe a huge reason for the shift to larger boats is that there is no money in building smaller ones.