Got beat by a jet

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Yea Yea i know. Should of put a chevy in it.The boat was a 1978 bahaner with a 454 berk. I left him in the hole but he beat me on the top end his boat was turning 5600 rpm and mine was spinning 5300 rpm. Are my gears too low? prop? When i star the boat at 800 rpm the boat has a small wake. Less then a sea doo. I have seen other vdrives that haul ass at idle.There is nothing in my boat as far a weight. He had full seats and gear.Whats up with this? I have a 440 tunnel ram with 2 660s, Pretty stock motor. Are the carbs too big and killing the motor.A sad day for CP.I need to go faster. Thinking of getting a cam to put in this weekend. Any ideas on #s. Also I do not know what gears or prop i have. A 2 blade.How fast am i going? any idea?
I was at blythe sunday ,Aha Quinn, it was bad ass. Glass all day, water was up, warm with a light wind.

[flattie]

Dont tell anyone about this! This is like saying you got beat by a Wave runner! I feel for ya. Its time to put some hp in that thing

[Ratacole]

cry

[wsuwrhr]

Bud, you know I dont know shit about V-drives. But I think your prop is too small. Ask superdave or give Tom Menkins a call. They are both knowledgeable and real cool guys.
There will always be a number or boats faster than you, just figure out how high you want that number to be....and budget accordingly.
The Dodge is good for the RPM you are running it. You could be up around 6500 with your oiling system, as long as the bottom end will hang tight.
Hard to say since you don't know what your combination you are running with. I think you need may need some cam or head work for your
t-ram. But I already told you that.
Be happy you aren't sitting on shore. haha.
Brian

[1Bahnerjet]

Ratacole:
cry :D
This only Happens once every 10yrs. On a Full Moon, The CURSE (evil Laughter)
--------
Thats BANNER with an H
[ June 02, 2003, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: 1Bahnerjet ]

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Story of my life...Prop too small :D cry

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Brian any input on what cam?

[126driver]

You need to find out what you have first before you can start to dial it in. Figure out your gears and post the numbers. Any markings on the prop?

[wsuwrhr]

Dude, like I said, hard to tell without your combination. Compression plays a big part with a tunnelram. We don't know what cam you have in it now. Bring it up and I'll put a degree wheel and dial indicator on it and check some numbers. I have a "whistler" I can use from time to time to check ACTUAL compression. I called to see if I can pick up the whistler this week, let me know if you are serious and I will make it happen.
Brian

[396_Z]

I read the thread title and my first thought was "Sucks to have to paddle in to the dock".

[wsuwrhr]

Cal Perf,
Seriously, find out what power that hull can handle. All the power in the world is no good if you stand on the gas and the next thing you know, you are swimming. What number are you looking for, or do you just want to have a point where the adreline kicks into high gear and you back off the gas? Call Tom and see what he says. We can make the power with your motor no problem.
Brian

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Yea Brian let me know when and where?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

How to find out what power the hull can handle? It is a 1970 Eliminator 18' flat. Anyone out ther have info? Hull is in good condition. No stress cracks. With just a cam, will it make that big of a diffrence. Time to step it up boat feels slow to me :( , Michelle thinks it is way too fast :D wants a family boat. NOPE not yet.

[wsuwrhr]

Here's the deal, I just got off the phone with him. The whistler is pretty expensive, like around 1800.00. I can use it at his house all I want. He lives in La Verne, but I am asking if I can borrow it from him so we don't have to go over there. I would rather use it at his house, but I know what a pain in the ass it is.
We'll see. He is going to let me know if I can take it today or tommorrow. We need to know what your compression is before we do anything. If your motor isn't at LEAST 10-11:1, a tunnel ram won't do you any good in my opinion. You would be better off with a single carb. I may be wrong and I am curious what the other motor-builders here think.
Brian

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

No markings on prop. It is a steal 2 blade. How do i find out what gears i have?

[HBjet]

is that why you bailed out on Elsinore? All of us jet boat guys going out there. :D
HBjet

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Cool let me know. I will pull where ever.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

uh oh yea just doing a little sandbagging before CFW. Yea thats it wink

[wsuwrhr]

Well if you want to go over there, that would be no problem. I will let you know what he says.
Brian

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Is this the deal where you take the spark plug out and screw it in then crank it over?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

screw in thewhistler in then crank it.

[wsuwrhr]

Somewhat like that. What you are thinking of is what you use to measure actual cylinder volume.
You do put a probe into the spark plug, but you don't "crank " it over. You turn it over one revolution and it measures the difference of the volume of air it blows in at bottom dead center versus the volume of air at top dead center. Bitchen machine.
I used it all the time when I was a tech official for American Race Trucks, now they are West Coast Pro Trucks.
Cool tool to have, but the bastard is to pricey for me to own.
Brian
[ June 02, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: wsuwrhr ]

[Kurtis500]

You have a heavy flat and a mostly stock motor with a few high performance add on's. Probably set-up for skiing and not racing depending on your motor location and so-on. I think your boat is just right and will last for years just like my flat has with a Chrysler BB in it. Dont get in to beating the next guy too much...I can think back 10+ years ago when we were camping at Apache lake with guys like Frank Nagore..now look at him, went from a 75-80mph lake boat to a capsuled fuel jet now. If you keep building up the motor it will break more often. I have never been into my BB and it stil turns 5500 and runs all day on cheaper pump gas.
If you need any additional help I can give you a number to a good friend of mine, Tony Leaman, he runs BB Mopars in PE with a lot of success.

[wsuwrhr]

...damn double post
[ June 02, 2003, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: wsuwrhr ]

[wsuwrhr]

Kurtis500:
Dont get in to beating the next guy too much.
If you keep building up the motor it will break more often. I have never been into my BB and it stil turns 5500 and runs all day on cheaper pump gas.
If you need any additional help I can give you a number to a good friend of mine, Tony Leaman, he runs BB Mopars in PE with a lot of success. I tried this angle already, haha, he ain't having it. So I figured I will help him out the best I can.
What is PE?
Brian

[Kindsvater Flat]

Here is the cam I use.
Cam (http://www.saber.net/~atthefarm/folder/pics/cam03.jpg)
My compression is a little over 12:1 with 906 heads. 88cc chambers I believe. I'm going to 76cc heads so that will raise my compression more. Tunnel ram with 600 Holleys right now. Gears are 19% with an 11 1/2x15 stellings prop which Tom and Harold both say is actually a 16 pitch.
I have no idea what this combo will do until I try it.

[Kurtis500]

I figured... wink Just needed to relieve my conscience ahead of time. :D
Tony runs a Fineline hydro in the 8.00 second class. He runs a BB Mopar too. The boat will go into the 7's with no problem. He's a great guy to talk to and loves the BB Mopar.
Heres a pic of Tony.
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/524/701_09_CalFinals_4145_572-med.jpg

[Kindsvater Flat]

Cool. You dont' see alot of mopars in boats that much anymore.

[wsuwrhr]

Not yet you don't bubba.
I have been generating alot of interest from all over the country from my website. I don't even know where they find me from.
Brian
Now how is that for a V-drive hydro? I love that shot!!! Do you have anymore pictures of it?
Even still shots, the setup, any pictures of the boat.
[ June 02, 2003, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: wsuwrhr ]

[Ian]

I feel your pain brother, nothing worst than loosing to a jet. I saw you at Billy B's bash so I know, like me your a young guy, and probably don't have deep pockets, so decide what you want your boat to do and spend accordingly. Another good idea is to use a GPS to determine top speed before you make any changes. I'm no expert at all, just repeating things that have been told to me in the past. Before you start tearing into that motor you should do a leak down to make sure your motor isn't tired. I think you would gain some speed by ditching the tunnel ram and adding a nice dual plane manifold (possibly single plain), a healthy cam and a single 850. You also need to find out what gears you have; you can do this by spliting the cases, call any reputable v-drive shop and they can explain the process or pm me and I'll explain it to you. With your motor you should probably be running a 12% gear. Also, does the boat set good when you do a pass, if you're not of the plates when your racing then all the power in the world won't help you win. Have someone video tape you doing a pass so you can see the attitude of the boat on a pass. You might also want to send the prop out and have it gone through. Most importantly make sure you have the proper safety gear (whirl-a-way, jacket, ballistic shorts, etc.) you don't have to be going that fast to hurt yourself.

[Rexone]

Ian:
You also need to find out what gears you have; you can do this by spliting the caseslittle tip, you don't have to split the cases to determine gear ratio. Simply turn the input shaft exactly one full turn and estimate how much more than one full turn the output shaft turns. Felt pen marks here guys. You can do this in a very short time, even in the boat if necessary. If output goes around a quarter more than the input, you have 25's, a little less, 22's, a little less than that, 18's and so on. A good eye and estimate can nail it every time.

[Ian]

Rexone is right the is an easier way to get a good idea what gears you have. If you do ever decide to plit cases, let me know and I'll explain how, it's really pretty easy.

[LVjetboy]

Ok, I really don't mean to go off topic here. Or jangle v-driver nerves, but what speed do you run? That seems to be missing from this thread.
If that evil jetter beat you top end, that means speed right? You already got him on acceleration. I don't know about v's, but for jets, rpm's don't mean sh*t unless you know speed. Or power and impeller size. Jet rpm's depend on impeller and power and can be different for the same speed. So his turning 5.6k and yours 5.3k means nothing without more details.
Again, don't take this as an evil jet boater slamming here. We're talking about numbers right? Without them you got nothing to baseline your changes to. Without baseline speed, a setup change can net rpm's but no change in speed...even for v's....am I right? At least that's how jets work.
Ian mentioned GPS, they work great. But even a cheapo pitot can get your relative changes...better than nothing if you want to beat that jet. And some pitots pretty close to GPS.
jer
[ June 03, 2003, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

[Ratacole]

I have found that if you are going to try different things, do them one at a time. If you change three things at once, two could of done you good & one could have killed you. By doing them one at a time you can see what helps & what hurts. smile_sp

[Kurtis500]

Brian, go to dragboats.com and look under Tony Leaman in the pictures section. I may have some shots of his stuff up close at home. We pit next to each other all the time. I think he is running Indy heads and a special Mopar block. I dont think he is running Dominator carbs either. I knew all the details a few years ago, but now I'm just familiar with looking at it.. :D He has to be one of THE nicest guys at the racetrack.

[Kurtis500]

lvjetboy, we all know this, but speed doesnt matter in a drag race. And it doesnt matter how fast the guy is coming up behind you just as long as he stays there before the end.
I would change one thing at a time. If you dont, then change a bunch of things at once and start over one at a time with a new set-up. I really feel your boat is great to ski and have a good time with, gains are very small with that set-up. For example, Tony Leaman had his motor in a heavy Hondo, the same as mine. Best he did was a 10.3 or so. Once he put it in a race hydro he got it into the 7.70+ range. A huge difference in drag racing and all because of the hull. But dont let me discourage you :D Since my boat is similar and I have done the same thing before here is what I found out. I ran the same numbers with the 12% and the 29% gears. My motor overpowered the 12's and couldnt pull the 29's very well. Once the speed got up there around the 80 mph range the boat would start hoping bad. The motor was naturaly moved back from the skiing set-up and the weight distribution fought with the plate the whole time. The boat had a 12 degree v-drive and a steeper strut angle. These two things in addition to the motor location are very hard to change without chopping up a boat. I dont know if yours is set-up like that. I wish you the best if you speed it up! I finally gave up and put the flat back to the way it was when we first bought it and bought a hydro to race with.

[63stevens]

The first thing I would do is get yourself one of those hand held $100 GPS'S. Then you will know how fast you are really going. Then figure out what gears you have and what your prop is. The formula for determining speed is RPMxPITCHxGEARRATIOx.00094976 MINUS PERCENTAGE OF SLIP. A good number to put in there is 20%. The formula is exact in the ideal world but there is always factors that keep us from the ideal world. If you use the formula and the GPS you can determine how much slippage you have. If you decide to make changes make them one at a time. That way you will know what the change did.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Thanks everyone.
The boat will set pretty good with me off the plate. I have video of it hopping when it was not running good. Last weekend it ran flat with the first skeg visable. So i do not think it is plowing. Just want the boat to be faster. I mean i got beat by a jet, ski boat. Not impressive to me. I dont want a full out drag boat... well.. no i just want it to get it on a little better. The Front of the motor is 57 inches to the transom the v drive is 102.5 inches to the transom from the plate that splits it.
Rex, I did what you said and it went around one time plus a little more than a .25 it spins counter clock wise started at 11 0 clock and staped around 7.5 This does not sound right unless my prop is real small? The prop is 10.75 inches across the middle. The blade is 5.5 inches at its widest point, looks pretty agressive. Hope this helps. Thanks Marty

[MoJetBoPar]

It looks, to me, like your gear for skiing, but your rpm was still low at 5300.
If I recall correctly, 660 Holley's are the "center squirter" type and double pumpers too?
That would help throttle response out of the hole.
What is the total timing lead on the motor now? Chrysler big blocks don't require alot, many run best at 34-36. It does seem like something is not letting the motor run higher.
I would guess that your cam is real mild, dialed in too advanced or your valve spring set-up is tired or wrong height. Not to mention the compression factor as mentioned but a low-comp. motor will still rpm, just have a sluggish low-end throttle response.
A good 440 with near zero deck piston height, .500 lift/240+@.050 cam, over-sized aftermarket valves (2.14/1.81) and a decent bowl porting on the production iron heads can produce 500 hp.
Quench is also critical on those motors and if yours isn't within the range hp will not be there. That's why it's good to know how low the piston sets in the hole at TDC.
Keep us posted.

[63stevens]

I you rotated the input shaft one turn and the output shaft turned one and a quarter turns you are running way to much overdrive in the v-drive. that's 25% and you don't have enough motor to run that much gear. I was running 23's in my stevens with probably not as much HP as you have and the boat was real lazy on the top end. I changed to 16's and the boat woke up. picked up 5mph, more rpm and the boat is alot quicker.

[Cs19]

cal performance, did you used to have a jet?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

cal performance, did you used to have a jet?
My dad raced cp for 13 years in NJBA, boat 110,Budget Bandit,John Russo. I love these style boats. Picked up my flat on a trade. Trying to save for a CP OR TX 19.Still looking for the right boat and deal.I do like the whole V-DRIVE deal.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

The motor is a 440 dont know what year or anything about it. It also has 452 heads.I put a M-1 tunnel ram and 2 660 carbs. It has point dist. I have not checkd the timing yet need to get a deg tape or something.It also has flat top pistons in it, I replaced a head gasket and saw them. This whole gear thing is like = to a car with 17 inch tall tires and a 2:08 gear right? so if i got lower gears the boat would be quicker with less top end? Wit a bigger prop it would have less bottom end with more mph? Also what fuel pressure should i run? It is at 7 pounds now.As you all know i have a small budget. I want to keep the t ram. So should i get higher comp pistons, cam ,and springs or mess with the prop and gears? Also I have a crank case vac kit on it and it spits out a bit of oil on both sides out the breathers. Why? Are the rings shot so blow by is spitting it out or? Thanks for all info and time. Marty

[Kindsvater Flat]

Mine is 12:1 with 906 open chamber heads, pretty good size cam, tunnel ram with 600 holleys, 12% gears and 11.5x15 prop. The best with that combo was 79 on radar at around 6900 rpm. That was in choppy water. On perfect glass it was around 70.
Now with the stage VI heads (closed chamber) even bigger cam with 660 carbs and 19% gears with the same prop. I have no idea what this is going to do. Hopefully I will know this weekend.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

So my prop is real small then. Right?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Also the 452 heads what cc are they or do they vary?

[Kindsvater Flat]

CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE:
So my prop is real small then. Right? Hard to say... small props can bite hard. From a rolling idle to wot, what does it rev to?
Sounds to me like you are under powered for your gears. Take the cover off and see what you really have. That way you know for sure.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

OK taking front cover off, got all bolts out damb thing is stuk. Any tricks? :D

[VD CRUISER]

Yea, take the top bearing cap off and pull the bearing out first. Superdave makes a bearing puller, or you may be able to get it out with 2 large screwdrivers.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Thanks two screw driver did it. I have 10 deg gears and they are 1.18 looked good. Everyone said mine was a 12 deg case.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

This thr thread http://forums.***boat.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=002034#000000

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

The oil had some water in it looked mirky, metal shavings. Lookes like gliter. I think i am going to take it to Ron Brocksma?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Here i http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/499running_boat-med.jpg s a pic of it running flat out.. Looks stuck in the water :confused:

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

The boat that beat me burningm http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/499trina_jet-med.jpg A pic of Shell http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/499shell-med.jpg Aha Quinn is soooo nice http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/499shell-med.jpg show off http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/499jet_roost-med.jpg

[dmontzsta]

CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE:
Here i http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/499running_boat-med.jpg s a pic of it running flat out.. Looks stuck in the water :confused: how was your cavitation plate adjusted there?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Where ever it is set at. I was not on it at all.

[fastvdriver]

what kind of boat do you have? the plate really seems to be set low if you were off the down pedal? do you have a up pedal? did you feel the pedal pull away from your foot? nice looking boat!!!!

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Thanks. No up pedal. It is a 70 eliminator. Did not use the pedal at all.

[dmontzsta]

what do you mean by pedal?

[Ratacole]

dmontzsta:
what do you mean by pedal? Cavatation plate adjustment pedal.

[DUCKY]

Hey CP, do a search for cav plate adjustment. That thing is way too glued to the water for no down pedal. I responded to a question about the plate setting several months ago, but it was a lengthy answer. email me if you can't find it....

[dmontzsta]

Ratacole:
dmontzsta:
what do you mean by pedal? Cavatation plate adjustment pedal. hmmm...mine is a knob, kind of like a shifter.

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Thanks duck will do

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

I have a true flat with a 2 part cave plate is it set up the same as a 3 and a runner bottom? Or get a 5 foot stright edge and set the plate up 1/8 inch. :confused:

[wsuwrhr]

Maybe the plate is set too far "down" with the turnbuckles. Meaning when you are off the down pedal the plate still needs to go "up" more. Does that make sense to anyone...?
Am I ready for graduation from flattie schoool?
Brian

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Yep :D . That is next after i get this thing togather

[MoJetBoPar]

I think you still have alot left in your motor.......
"I have not checkd the timing yet need to get a deg tape or something."
If your timing is too late/retarded you will not see max hp. This is the first thing I'd fix. I'm gonna guess and ask if you have a pointer in the front cover and have verified the harm. balancer for TDC?
"It also has flat top pistons in it, I replaced a head gasket and saw them."
Flattops are good but with Mopars they can be near zero deck heigtht (cool) or as far down as .120 (not so cool). Before you tear into the whole thing, I'd think about pulling the heads to see how they set or have you used that "Whistler" yet? You can safely mill virgin heads .070.
"I want to keep the t ram. So should i get higher comp pistons, cam ,and springs or mess with the prop and gears? Also I have a crank case vac kit on it and it spits out a bit of oil on both sides out the breathers. Why? Are the rings shot so blow by is spitting it out or?"
Do a dry compression check and then with a squirt of oil. The oil will help seal marginal rings and verify if you have poor sealing valves or rings. How do the plugs look? Oil fouled?

[CALIFORNIA PERFORMANCE]

Have not checked timing or comp yet. Ben busy with the v drive.The plugs look wet after i run it

[wsuwrhr]

Plugs will be wet anyway with that tunnel ram. Your boat is WAY rich. Some beer, and a couple of weekends of tuning and she'll go.
Brian

[126driver]

DUCKY:
Hey CP, do a search for cav plate adjustment. That thing is way too glued to the water for no down pedal. I responded to a question about the plate setting several months ago, but it was a lengthy answer. email me if you can't find it.... I agree. Get that thing running free. But go with small adjustments. You don't want it too free. smile_sp smile_sp

[Jet City]

I think the 452 castings are basically the same as the 906's, I think they replaced 906's after 1970 which somebody said are 88cc (I can't remember). I used a $99. dollar E-trex GPS to gain nearly 5 mph on my unbelievably slow hot tub car boat with carb, timing and ride plate tweeks. If you do end up decking the block, I believe zero deck with .04-.045 gasket should be plenty safe for a steel rodded engine. I wouldn't give up on the RB Mopar yet, those can make as good a power as BBC or BBF IMO (I love all 3 of them). Good luck (nice boat by the way)