Whitewater intake

[Wicked Performance Boats]

Hey whitewater guys, Could you possibly post some pics of a whitewater jet intake for some of us "southern" jetboaters? Budlight

[Wicked Performance Boats]

I guess their shit is so secret that they'd have to kill you if they showed it to you!!! BL:confused:

[Aluminum Squirt]

Probably a little secret. I don't have any pictures and mine certainly isn't one of the top of the line race tunnels you could learn anything from, I'll describe what little I know:
Regular ride plate, no shoe, 5, 6, or 7 bar rock grate. I don't have any intake issues as my boat isn't really fast. The faster guys use a spoon to create good pressure. I think everybody's design is different. Most are bondo, or at least start out that way until they are verified to create the pressure and ride they are looking for. Of course that bondo sometimes rubs off on the rocks, changing your intake considerably. Every once in awhile you hit the rocks just right and it makes a new dent or scrapes off the bondo just right so that you actually gain a couple of MPH. Then you try not to make any more river induced bottom changes in the same run, pull the boat out and study what just happened and replicate it or improve on it. A shoe would get ripped right off most of our boats.
If I were guessing, I'd say the spoon design is probably the most secret part of most guys set-up. Not to over simplify but making the HP, driving, getting lucky, etc can be done by quite a few of the fast guys, getting their spoon just right is a little bit of science, a little bit of art, and a whole lot of experience that I don't think people are going to just post up on the internet. I'm sure somebody will prove me wrong or at least talk about it using some generalizations.
Quite a few other things are different too like our nozzles, steering, etc, but I'm sure you've seen most of that in the pictures. Hope this helped-Aluminum Squirt

[Placecraft Dragstar]

I guess their shit is so secret that they'd have to kill you if they showed it to you!!! BL:confused:
They must not be to fast:idea: you do not see them at the drag races.

[sleekcrafter]

Whitewater racing must be way more fun, fun for hours on end :D
They are plenty fast, must be the quick part that keeps them off the track;)

[MikeF]

Hey whitewater guys, Could you possibly post some pics of a whitewater jet intake for some of us "southern" jetboaters? Budlight
I guess their shit is so secret that they'd have to kill you if they showed it to you!!! BL:confused:
This kind of question from someone who won't divulge any secrets of his own hull bottom.....so the competition won't have an advantage by adding whatever modification to their boat?! :jawdrop:

[Wicked Performance Boats]

This kind of question from someone who won't divulge any secrets of his own hull bottom.....so the competition won't have an advantage by adding whatever modification to their boat?! :jawdrop:
I didn't ask anyone to give me their boat design, bottom or top. I just asked to see a whitewater intake looked like not how it's mounted or what bottom mods I needed to do. There's nothing secret about my bottom. You can get off you butt and come look at it right now! Or you can sit in front of your computer and bitch about me not posting pictures or giving you architectural drawings, or making a list of my changes that make it different. I help provide allota info on this site to help people what I can. BUT I'll be dammed if I'm gonna give you all the info you need to try and reproduce my bottom. If you are truly interested in my hull. Then come see it or meet me at the river and check it out. See how it drives and handles. The competition tries to buy a boat from you and then splashes your hull so they can have the advantage that you created. And you don't even want to do that. You just want me to spell it out for you or play show and tell. That way all you closet wannabees designers can pick it apart as to why it shouldn't or won't work without leaving your computer seat. When would you like to come see it? I can't understand why this attitude is out there unless you are buddies with another boat builder and are doing his dirty work for him. WPB

[steelcomp]

Jeeeezzzz...here we go again. Earth to Pat...it's a boat, dude...not national security. :notam:
What a joke. No one asked you to give them your boat design, just describe some of the differences, and you won't even do that.
You don't think asking a white water guy to post pics of his intake isn't asking for his boat design? (One of the most important parts of the boat, at that)
Do a search instead of sitting there in front of your computer, asking from others what you're not willing to give yourself. There's plenty of info and pictures (show and tell, like you put it) on white water intakes on this and other sites, and you don't even have ot leave your computer seat! LOL!!!

[Wicked Performance Boats]

Jeeeezzzz...here we go again. Earth to Pat...it's a boat, dude...not national security. :notam:
SC, I'm NOT the one with a bad attitude. I didn't bring it back up! Some people won't let it go. I just choose not to take it anymore.Some people just like to start shit and sit back and read, BL

[Devilman]

There's nothing secret about my bottom.
LOL....:D
Sorry, carry on.....LMAO

[steelcomp]

SC, I'm NOT the one with a bad attitude. I didn't bring it back up! Some people won't let it go. I just choose not to take it anymore.Some people just like to start shit and sit back and read, BL finish reading what I wrote...it's all about your attitude.

[Xerophobic]

I don't think its a top secret as I keep hearing the drag scene is. Walk through the pits at a whitewater race and you'll meet some of the nicest people ever. Don't think anyone would even blink if you asked to climb under their hull to have a look.
However what works on one boat won't necessarily on another, they are all different and forever changing, you didn't think this would be easy did you!?
I can tell you what the basic setup is on a 21 tunnel.
The hull has a formed centerpod which appears rounded,(some more than others-we now offer 2 keel shapes depending on HP) usually 3/8 to 1/2" thick.
some guys opt for QT100 steel on top of that(3/16"), braver ones do not want the weight. The hull is built on the jig so that added thickness of the steel does not influence the shape or layout of the intake etc
Our intake is welded together from alimunum parts and looks somewhat like a typical cast intake. The rear entry of our intakes is no longer rounded like a stock intake.
Formerly on high speed boats ( <90 mph ) a "spoon" was added ahead of the intake. This spoon was a 2nd layer of steel about ~3' long 6-8" wide welded to the QT100. the rear of this ending close to the intake and it was this area that was often hand tuned with bondo etc. Usually critical to get the boat to hold in the corners and keep the pump fed etc
Newer boats and our newer keel do not use this extra layer to form a spoon and seem to be the next generation of bottom. These are still being developed but the keel has more of a rounded shape overall and this seems to work well on high HP boats. Dales boat that won the worlds did not have a traditional "spoon" at all. His boat makes mid 800 hp and was knocking on the 120 mph door. Ive personally done 118 in the boat.
(note to put some emphasis on: whitewater numbers are always attained with TWO people in the boat, and often a fair bit of fuel ~50-60 gallons)
Rock grates have an integral "ride plate built into them but it is not as long as typical lakeboat ones, usually only 6-8"
Rockgrates have as much put into them as loaders but typically are 8-9 bars with 1/2" spacing.
Hopefully that clarifies some things and I will try to add pictures later, ***boat gallery willing! lol
Cheers

[Wicked Performance Boats]

I don't think its a top secret as I keep hearing the drag scene is. Walk through the pits at a whitewater race and you'll meet some of the nicest people ever. Don't think anyone would even blink if you asked to climb under their hull to have a look.
However what works on one boat won't necessarily on another, they are all different and forever changing, you didn't think this would be easy did you!?
I can tell you what the basic setup is on a 21 tunnel.
The hull has a formed centerpod which appears rounded,(some more than others-we now offer 2 keel shapes depending on HP) usually 3/8 to 1/2" thick.
some guys opt for QT100 steel on top of that(3/16"), braver ones do not want the weight. The hull is built on the jig so that added thickness of the steel does not influence the shape or layout of the intake etc
Our intake is welded together from alimunum parts and looks somewhat like a typical cast intake. The rear entry of our intakes is no longer rounded like a stock intake.
Formerly on high speed boats ( <90 mph ) a "spoon" was added ahead of the intake. This spoon was a 2nd layer of steel about ~3' long 6-8" wide welded to the QT100. the rear of this ending close to the intake and it was this area that was often hand tuned with bondo etc. Usually critical to get the boat to hold in the corners and keep the pump fed etc
Newer boats and our newer keel do not use this extra layer to form a spoon and seem to be the next generation of bottom. These are still being developed but the keel has more of a rounded shape overall and this seems to work well on high HP boats. Dales boat that won the worlds did not have a traditional "spoon" at all. His boat makes mid 800 hp and was knocking on the 120 mph door. Ive personally done 118 in the boat.
(note to put some emphasis on: whitewater numbers are always attained with TWO people in the boat, and often a fair bit of fuel ~50-60 gallons)
Rock grates have an integral "ride plate built into them but it is not as long as typical lakeboat ones, usually only 6-8"
Rockgrates have as much put into them as loaders but typically are 8-9 bars with 1/2" spacing.
Hopefully that clarifies some things and I will try to add pictures later, ***boat gallery willing! lol
Cheers
Xerophobic, Thank you for the info. That's way more info than i asked for, BUT I appreciate that you are willing to pass on. I've seen only a couple whitewaterboats up close in years past. Thanks Pat:)

[lilrick]

I didn't ask anyone to give me their boat design, bottom or top. I just asked to see a whitewater intake looked like not how it's mounted or what bottom mods I needed to do. There's nothing secret about my bottom. You can get off you butt and come look at it right now! Or you can sit in front of your computer and bitch about me not posting pictures or giving you architectural drawings, or making a list of my changes that make it different. I help provide allota info on this site to help people what I can. BUT I'll be dammed if I'm gonna give you all the info you need to try and reproduce my bottom. If you are truly interested in my hull. Then come see it or meet me at the river and check it out. See how it drives and handles. The competition tries to buy a boat from you and then splashes your hull so they can have the advantage that you created. And you don't even want to do that. You just want me to spell it out for you or play show and tell. That way all you closet wannabees designers can pick it apart as to why it shouldn't or won't work without leaving your computer seat. When would you like to come see it? I can't understand why this attitude is out there unless you are buddies with another boat builder and are doing his dirty work for him. WPB
MikeF is a bit of a sharpshooter!! Don't let his antics bother you. He's a pipsqueek!!:D

[Wicked Performance Boats]

finish reading what I wrote...it's all about your attitude.
Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? You never get an attitude? It's just a different one than yours. Yea, I got one. BL:D

[Xerophobic]

Tad hard to see but since ***boats image center still seems messed up the best I can do for now
http://www.nzjetboating.com/yabbse/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2237.0;attach=7919 ;image
Thats a decent shot of the main QT100 on the bottom of the hull and the 2nd layer "spoon" , you can even say some pink bondo leading into the intake to fine tune the shape
Cheers

[Aluminum Squirt]

There's a picture over on the Eagle racing forum if somebody is smart enough to link it over here, I'm not. Whitewater boats are not quick, but the intake works. There is no shoe and they are making enough pressure to feed a pump at 120 so something is working right (especially since they are going 120 on about 800 HP). It's just not going to cut it on a lake boat. My set up is very mild, no spoon, but with the steel nozzle is takes a good 10 seconds to roll over and get going. Once I'm on plane is accelerates well and turns like a slot car, but my 0-20 MPH time could be beat by a couple of strong guys in a canoe. I think most of the acceleration issues are nozzle induced (steel nozzles are not adjustable, it's like trying to launch with your diverter all the way up). The spoon may be worth looking into on a lake boat, its just going to take a lot of experimentation. I think if it was done right, the spoon would be a good set up, especially for somebody having shut down issues, but that's just me talking and I only know enough to be dangerous-Aluminum Squirt

[AZKC]

maybe this will work
Just tweak it a bit more:)
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21844&d=1168640846

[Xerophobic]

Well hardly a good pic of a high speed boat but that IS a very good shot to show the stomp grate mechanism etc
What kind of hull is that? looks like a pretty shallow delta bottom
Cheers

[New Login]

http://www.outlaweagle.com/forum/files/spoon1_131.jpg
http://www.outlaweagle.com/forum/files/intakerecortado_118.jpg

[MikeF]

Let's see............
Hey whitewater guys, Could you possibly post some pics of a whitewater jet intake for some of us "southern" jetboaters? Budlight
Asks fairly innocently about what could be a very important/pivotal part of any really fast (typically) aluminum river running boat.
I guess their shit is so secret that they'd have to kill you if they showed it to you!!! BL:confused:
Then cops a "attitude" (with punctuation>>> !!!:confused: ) that noone will kick down with any pertinant information.
SC, I'm NOT the one with a bad attitude. I didn't bring it back up! Some people won't let it go. I just choose not to take it anymore.Some people just like to start shit and sit back and read, BL
And then says he does not have a bad attitude.
They say turnabout is fairplay. :devil:
Don't get me wrong BL. I applaud you on what you are doing as far as building boats. It is a very tough business for small craft makers of our type/size of hull.
There are some things that I like about your hull, and others I can't stand.....which keeps me away from your boat (not in the market for one either). I'm sure eventually I'll see one run as paths cross.
Doing espionage for another boat builder................oh yeah, that'd be me.:jawdrop:
Sincerely, Pipsqueak :D
closet wannabees designers
Too funny!

[MikeF]

MikeF is a bit of a sharpshooter!! Don't let his antics bother you. He's a pipsqueek!!:D
My aim is true.:crossx:

[Placecraft Dragstar]

Its gonna be a long winter :D

[Wicked Performance Boats]

Probably a little secret. I don't have any pictures and mine certainly isn't one of the top of the line race tunnels you could learn anything from, I'll describe what little I know:
Regular ride plate, no shoe, 5, 6, or 7 bar rock grate. I don't have any intake issues as my boat isn't really fast. The faster guys use a spoon to create good pressure. I think everybody's design is different. Most are bondo, or at least start out that way until they are verified to create the pressure and ride they are looking for. Of course that bondo sometimes rubs off on the rocks, changing your intake considerably. Every once in awhile you hit the rocks just right and it makes a new dent or scrapes off the bondo just right so that you actually gain a couple of MPH. Then you try not to make any more river induced bottom changes in the same run, pull the boat out and study what just happened and replicate it or improve on it. A shoe would get ripped right off most of our boats.
If I were guessing, I'd say the spoon design is probably the most secret part of most guys set-up. Not to over simplify but making the HP, driving, getting lucky, etc can be done by quite a few of the fast guys, getting their spoon just right is a little bit of science, a little bit of art, and a whole lot of experience that I don't think people are going to just post up on the internet. I'm sure somebody will prove me wrong or at least talk about it using some generalizations.
Quite a few other things are different too like our nozzles, steering, etc, but I'm sure you've seen most of that in the pictures. Hope this helped-Aluminum Squirt
AS, It helped for what I was looking for. Thank you I wasn't looking for any speed secrets. Just a general idea of what you guys were doing. I'm sorry for asking anybody to help me find what I was looking for. I'm just as lazy as the next guy, when it comes to internet research. Just wanted an idea. My bad. I guess I'm suffering from cabin fever too. Get over it. Budlight

[Wicked Performance Boats]

[QUOTE=MikeF;2335931]Let's see............
Asks fairly innocently about what could be a very important/pivotal part of any really fast (typically) aluminum river running boat.
Just asking for a little info.
Then cops a "attitude" (with punctuation>>> !!!:confused: ) that noone will kick down with any pertinant information.
Another lighthearted joke. I wasn't offended
And then says he does not have a bad attitude.
They say turnabout is fairplay. :devil:
Yes I could have worded it differently, but so could you!
Don't get me wrong BL. I applaud you on what you are doing as far as building boats. It is a very tough business for small craft makers of our type/size of hull.
Yes it is a tough business
There are some things that I like about your hull, and others I can't stand.....which keeps me away from your boat (not in the market for one either). I'm sure eventually I'll see one run as paths cross.
What can't you stand? There's not anything "I can't stand about a boat. Not your preference? ok I can understand that but the boating world doesn't have a perfect one boat fits all. and if those things keep you from buying one of my hulls, so be it. That last thing I want is someone to have one of our boats and be unhappy.
Doing espionage for another boat builder................oh yeah, that'd be me.:jawdrop:
I have no idea what your agenda is. Nor do I care. Budlight

[MikeF]

ok I can understand that but the boating world doesn't have a perfect one boat fits all.
Boats are always a compromise. It may go fast, but then you might want to go fishing too. (only as an example). If I had a huge amount of cash, I'd have way to many boats. :boxed:
The last thing I want is someone to have one of our boats and be unhappy.
Kudos!(sincerely) Most people that purchase your boat will be happy would be fair to say in my opinion.

[Aluminum Squirt]

BL, you don't have to worry about getting any speed secrects from me, my little sled has had a blown motor for two years. When it ran, I was running in FX class at a little over 70 MPH when the big dogs were running probably a little over 80. I only know enough about real whitewater boats to be dangerous. I've seen a little and read a lot, I've never been involved with a real whitewater tunnel that ran 100+ any more than just looking at one and wishing I had one.
As far as the other hot boat pissing matches, I almost never get involved. I don't want to know who's right and who's wrong or who is an A hole and who is not. I love this place, there is much to learn, but the posts get off track and people lose there minds sitting behind their computer. Most of the people are good folks with much more knowledge than myself, people just don't coomunicate very clearly sometimes using the written word. That's why I like 'gear heads' and the Eagle racing forum, its usually a little more professional.
If somebody asks me about aluminum boats I will try to help them as best I can. I love aluminum boats, I want to convert everybody to aluminum-Aluminum Squirt

[Wicked Performance Boats]

BL, you don't have to worry about getting any speed secrects from me, my little sled has had a blown motor for two years. When it ran, I was running in FX class at a little over 70 MPH when the big dogs were running probably a little over 80. I only know enough about real whitewater boats to be dangerous. I've seen a little and read a lot, I've never been involved with a real whitewater tunnel that ran 100+ any more than just looking at one and wishing I had one.
As far as the other hot boat pissing matches, I almost never get involved. I don't want to know who's right and who's wrong or who is an A hole and who is not. I love this place, there is much to learn, but the posts get off track and people lose there minds sitting behind their computer. Most of the people are good folks with much more knowledge than myself, people just don't communicate very clearly sometimes using the written word. That's why I like 'gear heads' and the Eagle racing forum, its usually a little more professional.
If somebody asks me about aluminum boats I will try to help them as best I can. I love aluminum boats, I want to convert everybody to aluminum-Aluminum Squirt
Aluminum Squirt,I have a lot of respect for aluminum boats. I think first off it would be nice to work on a boat and not have the fiberglass itches;) Secondly
I believe the layup schedule would be better to make more consistent lighter boats, and stronger too. Budlight

[Xerophobic]

Aluminum Squirt,I have a lot of respect for aluminum boats. I think first off it would be nice to work on a boat and not have the fiberglass itches;) Secondly
I believe the layup schedule would be better to make more consistent lighter boats, and stronger too. Budlight
One of the biggest advantages which I am sure you can apreciate is while our boats ARE buiilt on a jig to hold them straight during welding that jig offers a near infinite range of possibilities for minor changes and tweaks. Honestly almost every tunnel we build is slightly different in some way. We can alter the width, depth, angle of attack, thickness, taper of the tunnels for example by simply changing our plasma cutting program and forming charts. Its that easy and we do it all the time. We have forever chased the ideal hull for the power being applied be it a 1000HP unlimited boat or a 355HP FX boat. We are not bound by a mold.
Of course don't get me wrong that process is far from perfectly scientific and hardly exact but we do feel we are consitantly striving for that big number and I think our racing history reflects that (14 of the last 16 world titles)
Cheers

[HotRod Sprint]

One of the biggest advantages which I am sure you can apreciate is while our boats ARE buiilt on a jig to hold them straight during welding that jig offers a near infinite range of possibilities for minor changes and tweaks. Honestly almost every tunnel we build is slightly different in some way. We can alter the width, depth, angle of attack, thickness, taper of the tunnels for example by simply changing our plasma cutting program and forming charts. Its that easy and we do it all the time. We have forever chased the ideal hull for the power being applied be it a 1000HP unlimited boat or a 355HP FX boat. We are not bound by a mold.
Of course don't get me wrong that process is far from perfectly scientific and hardly exact but we do feel we are consitantly striving for that big number and I think our racing history reflects that (14 of the last 16 world titles)
Cheers
I just want to know when you are going to make a 21 pickle tunnel :D
Rod

[dirtman]

Hey Xero, see if you can dig up a pic of that purple cat looking hull that Eagle made a few years ago. Seem to remember it had twin engines? Or am I having a brain fart?

[MWJSOne]

Kiwi boat looks like this pretty much the same hole the shoe it self is machined.Xero has access to some of the super secret Outlaw stuff but he is not sharing due to his job being on the line.Maybe you can show some of the Eagle droops like the one from ARs boat

[bottom feeder]

Hot Rodsprint,
This was back in 86 or 87
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/15011987.jpg
There is a twin motor purple and white running around that I remember from about two years ago. I cant think of the builder though. Maby Eagle or Boice??

[dirtman]

I think the one I'm thinking about was longer, like a big lake boat. It was for sale for a while on eagles (or outlaws ) web site. I had a pic on the old computer, but she cratered. Not sure but it might have been sort of an experiment. Was a cool looking piece of alloy tho.

[dirtman]

Maybe Kevo on eagles site could clue me in on this.

[Wicked Performance Boats]

I remember on ***boat a coupla yrs ago. A 21 ft sportboat from Canada that had twin small blocks in the back with twin jets. It didn't sell in the fall and he was going to wait for spring to see if he could get his price. Budlight

[cyclone]

Hot Rodsprint,
This was back in 86 or 87
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/15011987.jpg
There is a twin motor purple and white running around that I remember from about two years ago. I cant think of the builder though. Maby Eagle or Boice??
that purple and white boat is being repowered by DNE Motorsports in Costa Mesa, CA. i've seen it at the shop a couple of times when they were fitting the new exhaust pipes. boat is real cool.

[MWJSOne]

Looks like it was a handful running 2 pumps just think if one engine died
and having to fight the river and compunsate for the loss of the engine.
Kiwis had a twin powerd V 6 Marathon and cut and welded the two intakes for the pump together.

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

maybe this will work
Alright, you getting a Boot To Tha Chest for not posting a pic. You instead make us have to open it up:D

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Daaamn, its getting hot in here!!!!!:eek:
I always wanted to see the intake of one of them boats as well;)

[Xerophobic]

I found just the pic but don't have time to fight with ***boats posting today so Ill wait till they fix it.
Can't see us building a pickelfork anytime soon and really don't see the point. We're not into low freeboard hulls and if you don't like how our tunnel looks then you probably haven't riden in one cause it becomes a pretty attractive boat pretty quick once you see what it does.
Incidentally i have a project on the go now that will be huge for whitewater racing and will definatly raise the bar for high performance boats. Stay tuned but you guys are gonna love this one trust me!
Cheers

[jrork]

Pics! I wanna see pics....For what it's worth, try Photobucket.com.
Works good and is easy as hell to figure out.

[Wicked Performance Boats]

I found just the pic but don't have time to fight with ***boats posting today so Ill wait till they fix it.
Can't see us building a pickelfork anytime soon and really don't see the point. We're not into low freeboard hulls and if you don't like how our tunnel looks then you probably haven't riden in one cause it becomes a pretty attractive boat pretty quick once you see what it does.
Incidentally i have a project on the go now that will be huge for whitewater racing and will definatly raise the bar for high performance boats. Stay tuned but you guys are gonna love this one trust me!
Cheers
I'm sitting on the edge of my seat already!!!!!! BL

[Xerophobic]

im also in the process of finding and preserving as much of the old school whitewater historic video, race programs, pictures and memoribilia I can find. You guys will be blown away what was being done even back in the late 70's and I'd venture to say some of your much beloved classic hulls ended up at the bottom of some whitewater rapids and you would be shocked what was used by the early racers.
That picklefork boat above was far from unique in racing lets put it that way!
Cheers

[Clockstart]

Xero, tell us about the picklefork with the tree imbedded in the front deck that supposedly hangs in a bar in Las Vegas to this day. True story?
Clock

[MWJSOne]

Xero is right some of the Grizzald white water guys are out there Bob Aldrich of Marsing Idaho ran the Salmon in a glass boat.Some of the stuff from the guys in Mexico is remarkable a team of 3 in a glass boat Wilson you hiding out there somewhere ???

[Wicked Performance Boats]

Xero, tell us about the picklefork with the tree imbedded in the front deck that supposedly hangs in a bar in Las Vegas to this day. True story?
Clock
I live near Vegas. Where is it? Budlight