Capping a hull

[holorinhal]

I was wondering if any one could give me a lesson in capping a hull?
How much grinding is involved ?How far ,in each direction of the seam do I have to go and how deep to grind? How many layers of glass does it take to make a strong cap? What type of glass(mat and cloth)is best to use and with what schedule? Any help would be apprecieated. Thank's...Hal

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Thats alot of work!!!!:eek:

[steelcomp]

Hal,
That's more than just a cosmetic change...without the rail there's really no protection for that edge. I'm really not a 'glass guy, but I'm going to be doing this to my Spectra, and this is how it was described to me by someone who "knows". The seam needs to be ground , say 3/4" wide and as deep as possible, and filled with heavy mat in thin strips untill it's flush with the hull. This builds up the edge and gives it some strength against impact. Then the edges need to be feathered out and covered by at least 2-3" on each side of the seam with another layer of mat...maybe two layers, one mat, and then one cloth, if you prefer. Then, of course, this will all have to be sanded, filled, and smoothed to get out the imperfections. Lot of work to be done right...or... you can just fill the seam with bondo. :jawdrop: :D

[wsuwrhr]

Had I known now what I didn't know then, I would have certainly capped the hull before I gelcoated it.
I would post the question in the how to section. Todd from TRG fiberglass is one of the resident gurus would could better help you with the project.
I would say do it, I won't ever skip that step on any of my boats again.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

correct that....
apparently there is a completely new section of "fiberglass and hull repair"

[holorinhal]

You are right ,that is alot of work 396 and I am not sure I want to do that much more work, as I have allready done alot with reglassing the entire deck,glassing in all the holes in the transome, and glassing in all holes in the dash and intake cutout. I also replaced all wood including stringers.
My next step is installing a cosmetic wood floor with flow coat.So really how much more work could it be? After all that work I might as well go all the way! It wont put me on the water antime soon ,But Dont want to not do it and then kick Myself in the ass for not!
Steel Yes I know there won't be any protection on the rails but it sure looks bitchen! I apreciate the detailed description of the glass work, but never, in My opinion, just fill a seam with only bondo!
Do you think the capp will crack over time?...Hal

[396_WAYS_TO_SPIT]

Bondo will fall out:eek:
The proper way to cap it is to gring in the hull @ 45 degrees on the to and it will look like a "V" that is sideways. Then you gotta glass the piss out of it. Just add a nice looking rubrail and call it a day;)

[steelcomp]

You are right ,that is alot of work 396 and I am not sure I want to do that much more work, as I have allready done alot with reglassing the entire deck,glassing in all the holes in the transome, and glassing in all holes in the dash and intake cutout. I also replaced all wood including stringers.
My next step is installing a cosmetic wood floor with flow coat.So really how much more work could it be? After all that work I might as well go all the way! It wont put me on the water antime soon ,But Dont want to not do it and then kick Myself in the ass for not!
Steel Yes I know there won't be any protection on the rails but it sure looks bitchen! I apreciate the detailed description of the glass work, but never, in My opinion, just fill a seam with only bondo!
Do you think the capp will crack over time?...HalHal, I wasn't warning against no protection on the rails, just that without protection, they're going to need to be much stronger than just glassing over the cap and calling it good. That's the idea behind grinding the seam and filling that edge...to make it more solid. My guess is that when most production boats have the deck attached, there's not a whole lot of glass on the inside, especially up under the bow...just enough to hold things together. (I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one crawling up under there to to that job!) Do it right, and it should never crack. The Bondo suggestion was in fun...duh!

[robk]

Hal, I wasn't warning against no protection on the rails, just that without protection, they're going to need to be much stronger than just glassing over the cap and calling it good. That's the idea behind grinding the seam and filling that edge...to make it more solid. My guess is that when most production boats have the deck attached, there's not a whole lot of glass on the inside, especially up under the bow...just enough to hold things together. (I sure as hell wouldn't want to be the one crawling up under there to to that job!) Do it right, and it should never crack. The Bondo suggestion was in fun...duh!
I was going to try this process on a Tahiti (that I just ended up selling) and had a chance to look up under the deck when I had the thing de-rigged... And you're right, there's almost no glass inside that seam. In fact in some places you could see right through the seam.
Rob

[sleekcrafter]

The Bondo suggestion was in fun...duh!
Don't use the light weight body filler, although easy to sand, it don't withstand excessive rubbings:D
No seriously, it does need to be ground out and filled in with glass mat. I was told to wad it up before wetting with resin, this helps the matt absorb the glass, and melt it in much easier. This is one project I will do one day:)

[old rigger]

I was going to try this process on a Tahiti (that I just ended up selling) and had a chance to look up under the deck when I had the thing de-rigged... And you're right, there's almost no glass inside that seam. In fact in some places you could see right through the seam.Rob
On a Tahiti, there's only 3oz of matt bonding the deck and hull together, the standard of the industry back in the day. There's 6oz at the nose on either side running back about 2 feet, 6oz in the area between the dash and the front seats and 6 across the transom. Not much at all, but I've never seen one come apart unless it was hit or something similar.
Capping makes it bullet proof. Little bit of work for big results and good looks.
The 'rub rail' was never intended to be anything more than something to cover the seam. I'd rather have a boat with no rail when it hits up against the dock. Usually it wipes out the rail, the rubber insert, not to mention the damage to the boat from the trim being ripped off and digging into the gel. :)

[robk]

On a Tahiti, there's only 3oz of matt bonding the deck and hull together, the standard of the industry back in the day. There's 6oz at the nose on either side running back about 2 feet, 6oz in the area between the dash and the front seats and 6 across the transom. Not much at all, but I've never seen one come apart unless it was hit or something similar.
Capping makes it bullet proof. Little bit of work for big results and good looks.
The 'rub rail' was never intended to be anything more than something to cover the seam. I'd rather have a boat with no rail when it hits up against the dock. Usually it wipes out the rail, the rubber insert, not to mention the damage to the boat from the trim being ripped off and digging into the gel. :)
I still have a giant pile of glass and mat that I bought for the project... capping really seemed like the only way to go.
Rob

[old rigger]

I still have a giant pile of glass and mat that I bought for the project... capping really seemed like the only way to go.Rob
Just how much of a pile do you have?

[gots beer wages]

You are right ,that is alot of work 396 and I am not sure I want to do that much more work, as I have allready done alot with reglassing the entire deck,glassing in all the holes in the transome, and glassing in all holes in the dash and intake cutout. I also replaced all wood including stringers.
My next step is installing a cosmetic wood floor with flow coat.So really how much more work could it be? After all that work I might as well go all the way! It wont put me on the water antime soon ,But Dont want to not do it and then kick Myself in the ass for not!
Steel Yes I know there won't be any protection on the rails but it sure looks bitchen! I apreciate the detailed description of the glass work, but never, in My opinion, just fill a seam with only bondo!
Do you think the capp will crack over time?...Hal
i have a 76' rayson craft that was capped in 76' and with the help of todd from TRG (toddnjuzz) im getting it ready for a re paint and the capp is still in good shape.

[holorinhal]

Well I think I might just go for it! is there any real trick or tool best used for rounding the rail and keeping it straight at the same time?.
When i reglassed the deck andrebuilt the nose I used my my inline air sander,which worked really well!....Hal

[Carnivalride]

holorinhal,
I'm not an "expert" but I capped mine about 5 years ago and it's holding up just fine. I ground it out at about a 45 degree angle all the way down to the inner glass that holds it together. I sanded it about 1/2" above and below the seam. Blew the dust out and washed it out with acetone several times until I was sure it was clean, taped paper about an inch above and below the seam (to keep resin of the sides). Soaked the heavy mat strands in resin and layed them in the groove, I over filled the groove and work all the air out. After it dried I ground it flush and went about 3" above and below the seam. I layed a 2" piece of 2-3oz cloth around it centered on the seam, then a 3" and then a 6" peice of mat. after it was all cured I Blocked sanded the glass (to shape it and not gouge) and then skim coated it with a polester filler, blocked it again and primed it like the rest of the boat.
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22033&stc=1&d=1168896353
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22034&stc=1&d=1168896353
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=22035&stc=1&d=1168896353

[jrork]

I'd give up my nutz to have my boat capped. Looks so clean......

[holorinhal]

Hey Carnivalride,Thanks For that detailed instruction! Thats the info I need.
Technicaly My hull is allready capped.There is not really a visible seam between the top and bottom.There was a rub rail around the hull ,that stopped at the corner of the transom,but did not go across the transom. However there is a crack on the right rail about 4' long at what looks like where the seam would be and ,and a crack half way across the transom,that I can definativly see that is where the seam was and then all the screw hole's all the way around, that attached the rub rail.I think the cap was a factory job but I know that the rub rail is not the original.
Now! My question would be ,should I grind out the seam all the way around the entire hull,or just where the cracks are.Also when I fixed the deck ,I extended the glass layers over the rail and down about 2 inches,and gound and blended it in.So the rail ,from the corners of the cowling around the nose is capped over the the factory cap.I just dont know how strong the factory cap is .Should I gind that out also and Do the entire pirimiter the way Carnivalride described obove?....Hal

[jrork]

Bumping it back up to the top for us that are thinking about it......

[Ken F]

Carnival ride, that sure is a good looking ol boat! got any pics of it recently, after getting it running last summer??
Ken

[jrork]

I agree. It looks bad ass setting on that damn dolly. Fantastic job

[Carnivalride]

Carnival ride, that sure is a good looking ol boat! got any pics of it recently, after getting it running last summer??
Ken
Thanks, Ken!
It was actually runnning the end of the year before but I don't have any good under way pictures or any of the top end shots. I'll try and attach a few of what I have. Maybe I can get some better pics this year and finish dialing it in.
Loren
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26484&stc=1&d=1173957862
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26485&stc=1&d=1173957862
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26486&stc=1&d=1173957862
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26487&stc=1&d=1173957862
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26488&stc=1&d=1173958491

[Carnivalride]

I agree. It looks bad ass setting on that damn dolly. Fantastic job
Thanks I kinda like that shot too, not sure why I guess it just makes it look long and lean. :D

[Ken F]

Loren, I love the look of it!! Are those '57 or '58 chebby hubcaps on your trailer???
Ken

[Carnivalride]

Loren, I love the look of it!! Are those '57 or '58 chebby hubcaps on your trailer???
Ken
Thanks Ken, it was supposed to have a little fancier paint job but my job situation made me opt for just clean and simple. The hub caps are actually from a 69 SS El Camino, I unbolted the centers so they go over the bearing buddies.

[Ken F]

Yea, that's right! I knew I had seen them, but couldn't place where or from what! lol Oldtimers disease. I like the looks of them on your trailer. It matches the vintage look of the boat really well.
Ken

[DaveA]

Loren,
I enjoyed your photos, esp the closeup of the GPS.:D
My Rayson was factory capped, and I have a bit of dock rash that I've got to take care of this spring. Nothing major like a crushed rubrail would cause, tho.
Is that Cheney? Looks like the "Yacht Club" members out there in the blow-boats.
DaveA

[Carnivalride]

I enjoyed your photos, esp the closeup of the GPS.:D Ya I couldn't help myself since there was a thread on here about what it takes to go 100mph, I supposibly don't have what it takes. :devil:
Is that Cheney? Looks like the "Yacht Club" members out there in the blow-boats.
Dave,
It's Cheney off the west boat ramp, blow boats weren't an issue just a few fishermen. lol

[jrork]

Okay guys. Wish me luck. I've got all the paint off this thing and it's back now to the original gelcoat. Jeezus, 3 different paint jobs.
Now the cap...
As you can see below the seam is very tight. I'm thinking about using my router with a 45 degree bit and CAREFULLY running it down the seam. Grinding back a few inches in each direction and then mixing up some resin and glass and filling in the groove I've just ground out. Once done there I'll continue the process like what Carnivalride has done.
Seem reasonable? John
Here is the seam picture
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_6935.jpg

[jrork]

For the record, the router and the bit didnt work worth a damn! Stinking fiberglass would ball up on the bit and burn. Drop kicked that idea and went back to the old reliable, 4" Makita with a flapper disk. Worked like a champ and was very controllable.
For those following just stick with the grinder. Much easier.

[Carnivalride]

jrork,
I used a 3" dia 36 grit pad on a dotco (90 degree small air tool) and ran around the seam grinding center out down at a 45 degree angle and then up at a 45 degree angle. I ground it until it hit the inside glass strips that hold the top a nd bottom hull halves together. Make sure you clean it well with acetone before you do any glassing. I gave a little better explanation on an earlier post I think.
By the way if all your seam is "fit" that nice yours will be easy to contour back in. Good luck keep us posted.
Loren

[jrork]

Will do Loren and get ready for more questions...

[LuckyDaze]

does anyone here know someone who does this and is good at matching gelcoat?
~Brian
P.s. Im in SOCAL.

[jrork]

Okay, here is an update. Pics will follow soon.
Good news is the boat looks awesome.
I used West Systems products. Spendy but really nice stuff.
First coat was just a "wet out". I let that start to tack up and then layed some fiberglass tape in the groove with the epoxy/hardener straight up.
Spent alot of time working it in really well with no air bubbles.
Next was another layer of tape overlapping the first. With this I also added some collodial silica to the resin to fill in any minor pin holes that may be present. Tried all sorts of tools and rollers to make sure I was getting all the air out and punted all of it and used my finger (with gloves) and just worked it over and over.
One more layer of glass and then a good thick (mayo consistency) layer of epoxy.
I quit there and let it set up overnight.
Looks really good and still a little bit of a groove left that I can fill and shape to get the lines back.
All in all, I'd do it again in a flash.
Lessons learned,
It's a 2 man project. Ended up having to put Jan into action as there is no way you're going to be able to lay the glass accurately by yourself.]
Be prepared for somebody to want to swing by and visit. Never fails....
And by far the most important, no matter how fatigued you get, DO NOT run your hands through your hair (for some of us, what's left) and stand back and admire your work.
Took me a half a second to realize I still had on my epoxy coated gloves on. Probably be picking that crap out of my hair for a month.......
Pics to follow

[71tahiti]

West systems also has some other fillers (easier sanded) for fairing it in. Now Im Thinkin of Capping mine.... Never really realized how clean the boat would look without Rub rail. I dont think i would use any light filler except epoxy.

[jrork]

West systems also has some other fillers (easier sanded) for fairing it in. Now Im Thinkin of Capping mine.... Never really realized how clean the boat would look without Rub rail. I dont think i would use any light filler except epoxy.
Step on up Tahiti. Worst part was grinding the piss out of the hull to allow me to bed some fiberglass/epoxy in there. I'll try to post some pictures.

[holorinhal]

Hey jrork where's the pics of the capping that You prommised us!...Hal

[jrork]

Hey jrork where's the pics of the capping that You prommised us!...Hal
Damn! sorry about that. It's pretty much done being roughed up and I'll get some pics up tomorrow night.
Good points,
> It looks sexy as hell. Man, when you run your hand along it it feels really good without the rail
>The West System stuff is NICE! Spendy as hell but with their website for direction and all their little features like the pump setup to take the confusion of mixing out of the picture, you can't hardly go wrong.
> I think I could glue the tires of my truck to the pavement and it wouldnt move. The stuff is strong.
Bad points,
> Grinding the piss out of my boat so I could get enough glass and epoxy in the groove. That really hurt. I've got 3 layers of glass and 4 layers of epoxy plus the fairing epoxy. Yikes
>Using Collidial Silica for the bulk of it. This stuff is supposed to be hell for stout and all I know is it is a pain to sand. I later switched over to the Fairing filler when I got close to final shape. Much easier to sand.
I'm getting close to shooting some primer/sealer on this so I can lay on some high build surfacer and get blocking it out.
Did I happen to mention that it looks sexy as hell? :D ........John

[jrork]

Okay, as promised here's the pics. Lots of work left to do but it's pretty damn straight.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_7318.jpg
The nose I spent alot of time shaping. It's close to what I want. Dont want it too blunt but sure as hell dont want it too pointy (technical term) that it breaks off.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_7339.jpg
Ignore my mits in this pic but I was trying to get some background for contrast. Every picture I took beforehand you couldn't see what you were looking at. By the way, the wrinkles you see is water running off the pic. Not waves. This thing is smoother than a babys butt.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_7334.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_7333.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/jrork/IMG_7332.jpg
I have more but you get the idea. Please ask questions or provide suggestions. I'm all ears........John

[Konabud]

It's looking great John! I'll know who to call when I do my Brendella (Just kidding, it's already capped):D

[jrork]

It's looking great John! I'll know who to call when I do my Brendella (Just kidding, it's already capped):D
Thanks Creg. Forget about the Brendella. Swing the Kona by the shop and we can take the grinder to it. :D