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Trailer Park Casanova
01-25-2007, 05:00 AM
We want to buy the New Triple slide Weekend Warrior 45 foot toybox.
It's GVW is 17.000 lbs.
Our 2500HD GMC truck is rated 13.500, with a short bed 4.11 screws, 8.1 Allison.
The wife and kids and I are going to take a one lap around America trip this spring and summer,, and would like to get the WW now for the trip, way before the tow vech we want will be available.
We don't want to go F550 or GM top kick. That isn't going to happen.
So, the thought is to beef up the GMC's suspension and use the short bed 5th wheel slider hitch until we buy the bigger tow vech.
Adding 3500 to the tow cap to far a stretch? Or hold off on the whole purchase process?
Anyone gone this route?
17K is a real reach.
http://www.a1warriortrailers.com/ftl_series/07images/07ftl-ext-left.jpg
http://www.a1warriortrailers.com/ftl_series/07images/07full-throttle.jpg

sigepmock
01-25-2007, 07:09 AM
That trailer is a giant and heavy PIG...nice trailer for sure but you'll be WAY......WAY over your GVWR. Only real safe way to pull it is with a 550 or Freightliner......we have several friends that have learned the hard way....that those trailers are a lot heavier than you think and WW is notorious for underrating the weight.
If it were my family I wouldn't even try it because I think it would be unsafe....plus there's the legalities....I think GM only lists that truck's Maximum trailering weight with a 5th wheel at 16,000 lbs....and a GCWR of 22,000lbs...truck probably weighs close to 6,500lbs wet....so that only gives you 15,500 lbs left and that trailer probably weighs that much empty........if you were to get into an accident you could be in trouble.
Don't get me wrong I love the new WW trailers just need to make sure you have the right tow vehicle.....It's not worth risking the family in my opinion.
Chris

Trailer Park Casanova
01-25-2007, 08:09 AM
Friends tow their '07's WW 45 footers with Dodge pickup long beds and do pretty good. Same overall GVW.
The 1 ton Dodge pickup is rated to tow it with the stick shift.
The 550 and top kick are too much truck for us.
We'll be waiting for the Ford F450 that is tow rated at almost 25000 lbs.
GM will up their tow rating next year no doubt, they always do, so that will be a wait and see first.

andy01
01-25-2007, 09:30 AM
That trailer is a giant and heavy PIG...nice trailer for sure but you'll be WAY......WAY over your GVWR. Only real safe way to pull it is with a 550 or Freightliner......we have several friends that have learned the hard way....that those trailers are a lot heavier than you think and WW is notorious for underrating the weight.
If it were my family I wouldn't even try it because I think it would be unsafe....plus there's the legalities....I think GM only lists that truck's Maximum trailering weight with a 5th wheel at 16,000 lbs....and a GCWR of 22,000lbs...truck probably weighs close to 6,500lbs wet....so that only gives you 15,500 lbs left and that trailer probably weighs that much empty........if you were to get into an accident you could be in trouble.
Don't get me wrong I love the new WW trailers just need to make sure you have the right tow vehicle.....It's not worth risking the family in my opinion.
Chris
Chris is right. WW is always low on weights. And your truck is way under at the trailers max.
If you get in a accident and they find (and they will) that your truck was over legal limit you insurance will drop you right then. So you will not have insurance for the accident, it is your fault you over loaded the truck. So now you are on the hook for the entire accident, your fault or not. Also if you kill someone with your truck over loaded you will be spending time in jail for gross neg., from over loading your truck. It is a big deal, and if the CHP sees it they can and may tell you to drop the trailer on the side of the road. Sure thousands of people do it every weekend going to Glamis or the likes. The sad part is when you find that you just made the gamle of a life time it is to late and over. There is a guy that killed two people in a mini van towing a over loaded WW setup. He lost everything he owned and got 8 years in jail. Wife left him, lost his business as well as his home. Just because he was 2,000 pounds over limit. If you upgrade your truck it is still seen as what ever the stock limits are. If you go buy a trailer this big only buy a Freightliner, it will give you the best tow and ride quality out of any. Remember Freightliner is a commercial company so they build thier stuff to last.
Good luck on your shopping.
Another option is to buy a Toter home with the garage in the back, then you can park a car or bikes in it and still have a way nicer setup for like money.
Andy

riverbound
01-25-2007, 09:43 AM
We towed our alfa 2 times with my old F350. and even though it did get it from point A to point B. we could feel that it was unsafe, and in the event we ever needed to stop in a hurry, it would have for sure been an ugly scene. :(
so we went and looked at ALL haulers available and settled on the FL60. Even though you said its too much truck for you. it actually has a smaller turning radius than a long bed crew cab truck, and is MUCH safer. remember your family is in there. and a trip around america will mean at times you will be in hairy situations. Every time I go out to Glamis and see 35-40' trialers bieng towed by lifted F-250s at 75mph, I cringe. they are grossly overweight and dangerous. but I guess to each is own. In my opinion my family's safety is second to none. If you cant do the right tow vehicle than go with a smaller trailer.

victorfb
01-25-2007, 10:21 AM
the F450 and F550 are almost exactly the same. from what i can see, the only real differance was the rear ends. the F550 had a much heavier duty rear end. these trucks share the same cab as the F350. you can purchase the trucks with a F350 bed with an added 3 inch spacer between the cab and bed, or they offer full length aftermarket beds. too much truck for you? im not understanding this. now the topkick and F650 is definatly a larger truck, and if i was to go that route i would look into the frieghtliner definatly. i tow a 38' 5th wheel toyhauler and tried it with a gmc 1 ton 4x4 duelly for a little while. too unsafe for my liking so i stepped up to the F550. first trip out it saved our lives. a sittuation developed were i absolutly know for a fact i would not have been able to slow the truck and trailer enough to avoid the accident. even with the trailer brakes. the F550 with its monster braking sytem did its job along with the trailer brakes and there was no accident. from that moment on i feel the truck just payed for itself. maybe even ten fold. if these trucks are too much for you and your family, then so is that trailer.
be advised aswell that here in california the CHP is cracking down on these overloaded rigs and are setting up check points. and i can almost guarantee that if a CHP saw you trying to pull that rig with your current truck, you will definatly get stopped and weighed. made to disconnect and send you on your way. they dont allow you stay with it for any length of time. drop it off and move on. towing, storage, impound, it will add up quik. but atleast they probably saved your lives.
get a proper tow vehicle or a smaller trailer!:D
what really gets me bent is the fact that alot of trailer dealerships will sell you this rig knowing you plan to tow it with a 2500hd. i think they should be held liable. IMHO

riverbound
01-25-2007, 10:27 AM
the F450 and F550 are almost exactly the same. from what i can see, the only real differance was the rear ends. the F550 had a much heavier duty rear end. these trucks share the same cab as the F350. you can purchase the trucks with a F350 bed with an added 3 inch spacer between the cab and bed, or they offer full length aftermarket beds. too much truck for you? im not understanding this. now the topkick and F650 is definatly a larger truck, and if i was to go that route i would look into the frieghtliner definatly. i tow a 38' 5th wheel toyhauler and tried it with a gmc 1 ton 4x4 duelly for a little while. too unsafe for my liking so i stepped up to the F550. first trip out it saved our lives. a sittuation developed were i absolutly know for a fact i would not have been able to slow the truck and trailer enough to avoid the accident. even with the trailer brakes. the F550 with its monster braking sytem did its job along with the trailer brakes and there was no accident. from that moment on i feel the truck just payed for itself. maybe even ten fold. if these trucks are too much for you and your family, then so is that trailer.
be advised aswell that here in california the CHP is cracking down on these overloaded rigs and are setting up check poionts. and i can almost guarantee that if a CHP saw you trying to pull that rig with your current truck, you will definatly get stopped and weighed. made to disconnect and send you on your way. they dont allow you stay with it for any length of time. drop it off and move on. towing, storage, impound, it will add up quik. but atleast they probably saved your lives.
get a proper tow vehicle or a smaller trailer!:D
same thing happend to me once....we avoided a multiple car accident where I had to swerve through it and use the brakes pretty heavily, and I remember saying after the fact, that if we were in the F350 we would not be driving away :(

sigepmock
01-25-2007, 10:36 AM
Friends tow their '07's WW 45 footers with Dodge pickup long beds and do pretty good. Same overall GVW.
The 1 ton Dodge pickup is rated to tow it with the stick shift.
The 550 and top kick are too much truck for us.
We'll be waiting for the Ford F450 that is tow rated at almost 25000 lbs.
GM will up their tow rating next year no doubt, they always do, so that will be a wait and see first.
I know a lot of people do it but it isn't right and as said above the CHP is starting to crack down.
If the 550 or Kodiak/Topkick are too much truck...then that trailer is too much trailer.
I towed a 26 foot WW for two years and there were times when that trailer was too much for the truck.....WW rated the trailer GVW at 5500 lbs...in reality loaded up with our stuff it was over 8,000lbs easy with two bikes in it. Add the Jeep in there and it was a handful.
Seriously consider the what if's when thinking about getting that trailer.....the SLE 3905's are a lot lighter and still have a ton of room. Ask MAGIC 34 about his 45 WW and towing it with his 1 ton Chevy Dually....and his trailer is still a lot lighter than the Full Throttle....seriously ...those things are way heavy.....have the WW sales guy drag it over to the scales for you and see for yourself....
I know you're a reasonble guy and I know what it's like to set your target on a trailer or motorhome...but you really need to take a look at the ratings on the available trucks and decide if its safe for you and your family to be that close to the limits when towing.
Our Motorhome is built on the Kodiak 5500 chasis and has a GVWR of 22,000 lbs on a GCWR of 26,000 lbs. Loaded up at 18,000 lbs it tows our 7,000lb of trailer very well.....the axle, brakes, everything on the Kodiak chassis is huge compared to my 2500HD.....there's a reason they build them bigger to tow the big weights....
To each his own,
Chris

Cole Trickle
01-25-2007, 11:03 AM
This thread makes me nervous.:) :) :idea:
I would always rather have too much truck than not nearly enough.
I think a 35' 5th wheel would still be a comfortable tow...I have no desire to hook a F350 upto 20K pounds.

afe1
01-25-2007, 08:55 PM
That trailer is a giant and heavy PIG...nice trailer for sure but you'll be WAY......WAY over your GVWR. Only real safe way to pull it is with a 550 or Freightliner......we have several friends that have learned the hard way....that those trailers are a lot heavier than you think and WW is notorious for underrating the weight.
If it were my family I wouldn't even try it because I think it would be unsafe....plus there's the legalities....I think GM only lists that truck's Maximum trailering weight with a 5th wheel at 16,000 lbs....and a GCWR of 22,000lbs...truck probably weighs close to 6,500lbs wet....so that only gives you 15,500 lbs left and that trailer probably weighs that much empty........if you were to get into an accident you could be in trouble.
Don't get me wrong I love the new WW trailers just need to make sure you have the right tow vehicle.....It's not worth risking the family in my opinion.
Chris
I couldn't agree more with sig here. Nice trailer & the truck would no doubt pull it but you'll have trouble no matter how & what you beef up. Don't believe the guys wanting to sell upgrades. Your family (And the hassles) aren't worth it.
aFe1

Trailer Park Casanova
01-26-2007, 02:29 AM
The New 2008 F450 Superduty is no doubt the way we'll go.
It tows 25.000, but you can't get the Allison until you step up to the F550, but the F450 looks suited to this kinda rig and our family.
Hate to step away from GM.
Thanks for the imput,, we'll hold off until we get the bigger tow rig, and take the US tour with our 32 footer instead.

andy01
01-26-2007, 01:04 PM
Forget the Ford. If I buy another truck(I plan to drive my durmax forever) I will do one of these. I loved my M2 Toter, just a blast to drive and travel in!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2007-FREIGHTLINER-SPORTCHASSIS-FLAMED-P2-SUPER-HOT-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6737QQihZ018QQitemZ 280074808221QQrdZ1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Freightliner-2007-SportChassis_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6737QQihZ0 08QQitemZ180076406830QQrdZ1#ebayphotohosting
Drive the Ford, make some u-turns then go drive one of these. Nothing else as nice. Plus they will tow like 40K.

DaytonaU
01-26-2007, 06:39 PM
I have a c4500 4x4 and pull 40 foot ww with a single slide the truck trailer combined loaded on the way to glamis was 28500 that is 2500 over the weight rating of the truck. There is no way a f450 and that trailer would be legal you would need to get aleast a f550 or bigger . DO NOT BELIEVE WEEKEND WARRIOR WEIGHTS THEY ARE NOT CORRECT.

curtis73
01-28-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm gonna chime in here since I have much experience with RVs. I lived in ten different RVs over a conglomerate of 13 years. :)
I have to say a resounding ABSOLUTELY NOT. Your truck is just fine for a 10,000-lb 5er that is 30 or so feet. I'd stretch it to 32 feet if you are an experienced tow driver. But 45 feet and 17,000???? Hell no. You will further be crutched by a slider hitch. I instantly drop 10-15% off the capacity if you're using a slider.
Think of it this way. You are towing a 1000-square-foot sail. One good blast of even a modest 30-mph wind is causing 17,000 lbs to rip on the truck using a 45-foot lever. I don't care about the weight on the truck, I think the truck won't crumble, but that's not what kills towing when concerning RVs.
Now if you had said, "can I tow a 50-foot gooseneck flatbed with two cars on it that weighs 17,000 lbs?" I'd say install a better oil cooler and have fun, but an RV? Absolutely not.
Towing it with a 250 (even if you upgrade to F-range tires, additional spring rate, and use a slider) is absolute suicide with that trailer. You'll find yourself in a ditch, your insurance will drop you, the DOT will charge you massive fines and/or put you in jail, and your kids will be in traction for three years in a hospital bed. You'll lose your house, job, wife, and start drinking whiskey at 7am. :) Someone will write a country music song about your life and it will go platinum.
(very) Rough estimates that I've come up with over the years keeping in mind that every manufacturer and driver is a bit different:
half-ton long bed = 26' TT, 28' Fiver, subtract 2' for shortbed, add 1' for extended cab
3/4 ton long bed = 30' TT, 32' Fiver, subtract 2' for shortbed, add 1' for extended cab
1 ton = 34' TT, 37' Fiver, add 2' for crew cab
anything else is strictly 450/550 territory. BARE MINIMUM for that 45' WW would be a 550 crew cab diesel. Period. Top kick, DT466, F650 with a cat diesel would be better.
The bottom line is that you CANNOT use tow rating of the truck to determine the max RV you can tow. If that were the case, everyone would be towing those ultra-lite 30' TTs with an S10. The keys are wheelbase, amount of rubber on the road, the load rating of the tires (and their corresponding sidewall stiffness and air pressure). The other huge thing is distance from the rear axle to the hitch. A long bed lets you use a regular 5er hitch which puts the pivot directly over the axle. Sway is greatly reduced because there is no "lever" action. A slider hitch or (worse) a regular hitch ball puts the pivot further back which allows for a lever action. When the trailer gets a blast from the side it has that much more mechanical advantage on the truck.
In RV circles, slider 5ers are kind of a joke. No one seriously uses them except people who have to have their "pretty" short bed truck, or in situations where the trailer is much smaller than the truck can handle. If you're serious about towing, get a serious tow vehicle. A cross country trip is a serious tow trip.
It also will make the difference between a pleasant drive with the family and a white-knuckle stressed-out attempt to correct for every Corolla that passes you.
I towed a 31' TT with an F250HD diesel and it did OK as long as there was no wind. The same truck towed a 33' 5er and it was the same thing. I ended up trading the regular cab for an extended cab and the difference was night and day.
One last thing: GVW is not a safety thing, its a legal/financial distinction. Period. In some states (like mine) you can legally change your GVW by paying more or less for your registration and filling out a form. Not kidding. Its up to you to determine what's safe, but the reason you'd get hit with fines is not because you are an idiot who overloaded his truck, it would be because you're towing more than your registration allowed.

LUVNLIFE
01-29-2007, 06:56 PM
Hey Canuck, are you saying with a class C license in Calif you cannot tow a tag trailer over 10,000lbs or a fifth wheel over 15,000lbs?

Trailer Park Casanova
01-29-2007, 08:07 PM
Well, That does it.
We'll take everyones advise and move up to something super before we get the Fiver.
Nice to get info from those that really tow the serious weights.
Appreciate all the info, all the takes.

LUVNLIFE
01-30-2007, 04:34 AM
Just surprises me to find out how many of us are towing illegal. There are alot of people towing serious weight. I'm under the limits right now but looking to step up. Even if you have a class A license you are still held to these weights unless your truck and trailer combo is registered commercial and then you pay a buttload in reg fees.

Beer-30
01-30-2007, 08:09 AM
Just surprises me to find out how many of us are towing illegal. There are alot of people towing serious weight. I'm under the limits right now but looking to step up. Even if you have a class A license you are still held to these weights unless your truck and trailer combo is registered commercial and then you pay a buttload in reg fees.
Besides all the obvious safety and legal issues; what do you think insurance will say when some disaster occurs half-way around the world? "Oh, well, let's see. After our investigation, we see that you were towing with a vehicle that was clearly labeled several thousands pounds UNDER the the required capacity for the trailer. Sorry."
If you're gonna man up for that trailer, you gotta man up for the appropriate tow rig.
OR;
Just step down a few trailer sizes.

andy01
01-30-2007, 09:38 AM
Some interesting info here. I thought to tow ANYTHING over 10K you had to have a class A. I tow a goose neck that is rated at 14K. I was told that even if it is empty they can site me or make me drop it because I was outside of my class of license when loaded. I guess not then. My 2500HD Chevy pulls it fine and is rated to tow it fully loaded. So I guess when ever I tow the trailer from now on I have nothing to worry about. I was always worried about having to drop it or get citied.
Andy

Beer-30
01-30-2007, 01:54 PM
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm

Trailer Park Casanova
01-30-2007, 02:12 PM
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart.htm
Thanks for the link.
It looks like we need a class A non-commercial license,,,
and this truck:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/Trucks/2008superduty/

Beer-30
01-30-2007, 02:35 PM
That's what I see, also.
Personally, I would go the little extra bit and get the 550. The price difference won't even be noticeable and it affords more safety and reliability. To ensure that my family wasn't standing on the side of the road in the middle of BFE, waiting for a tow truck. Plus, the 550 will have more resale, as people are generally looking for the most they can get for the money.
The 450 is no slouch, but I would still have a small ? in the back of my mind about it. Especially after the p/u and trailer are loaded with all those clothes, fluids, food, bedding, and tools for the trip. You're gonna be HEAVY. I would have no concerns about a 550.
I would hate to stray from GM also. I feel your pain. But, in addition, I would stay GM, and get the C4500 or 5500/ or a K series if I wanted 4wd. Even though it is bulkier, it has HUGE amounts of leg room for long trips. The leg room for the back seat is absolutely phenominal. You could have a full size ice chest in front of each person and they could still sit like in a normal crewcab. It would keep you in an Allison tranny. There are several around here (lots of horses) and the ladies are almost always driving them. The turning angle of the front wheels is pretty drastic, and being an automatic makes it easy to maneuver.

Beer-30
01-30-2007, 05:17 PM
Ross
If you are just looking for a truck to pull just that trailer look at an HDT class 7-8. you can pick one up used that still has warranty for 1/2 the price of a light pick up.
Or a Freightliner FLH

Trailer Park Casanova
01-30-2007, 05:23 PM
Get a load of this message that just came in (A cut/copy paste):
-----------------
I work at a ford store DO NOT BUY THAT TRUCK wait my brother works at the ford provong grounds in az and the chinese little techs in there white coats are having big problems witht the turbos melting down BAD ok not pulling but when u get a trailer melty melty still they told him that truck motor is not ready to come out for 2 more years but ford is still doing it!
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!
see the fender vents in the pictures thats there attempt to get more cool air to the turbos per the chinese little guys but still no worky!
------------------

riverbound
01-30-2007, 05:31 PM
Get a load of this message that just came in (A cut/copy paste):
-----------------
I work at a ford store DO NOT BUY THAT TRUCK wait my brother works at the ford provong grounds in az and the chinese little techs in there white coats are having big problems witht the turbos melting down BAD ok not pulling but when u get a trailer melty melty still they told him that truck motor is not ready to come out for 2 more years but ford is still doing it!
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!
see the fender vents in the pictures thats there attempt to get more cool air to the turbos per the chinese little guys but still no worky!
------------------
Glad I decided to buy a Cummins instead of waiting to buy the new Ford.
For the size trailer you are looking at the FLs will amaze you.
http://***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23193&stc=1&d=1170206986

Trailer Park Casanova
01-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Ya get the Allison with the rig too,, right?

riverbound
01-30-2007, 05:43 PM
Ya get the Allison with the rig too,, right?
Yes. CAT 3126 and allison 6 speed auto (stick available too) Air ride cab and air ride driver and passenger seat.

riverbound
01-30-2007, 05:43 PM
Our whole set up might be for sale real soon ;)

Trailer Park Casanova
01-30-2007, 05:50 PM
Now that's a rig
On another note...when is this around the country marathon proposed Ross?
Wife has it penciled for April-May.
Looks like it be the GMC and our travel trailer.

LUVNLIFE
01-30-2007, 05:57 PM
I have the FL70 and it has been a great truck. Pulls anything I need, easy regular maintenance and besides a few minor recalls no problems.:)

LUVNLIFE
01-30-2007, 06:01 PM
Next question. With a non-commercial A license what happens if you get a ticket? With a regular A you cannot go to traffic school. Can you go with a non-commercial? Alao what is the test like. I have seen the ones for a commercial A, is it the same?:idea:

Trailer Park Casanova
01-30-2007, 06:15 PM
Next question. With a non-commercial A license what happens if you get a ticket? With a regular A you cannot go to traffic school. Can you go with a non-commercial? Alao what is the test like. I have seen the ones for a commercial A, is it the same?:idea:
I'm going to check that out, and post the questions and what one goes through with DMV to get it.
The wife (ninjachix) going too.

LUVNLIFE
01-30-2007, 06:16 PM
Thanks Ross ;)

Beer-30
01-30-2007, 06:18 PM
It is only the COMMERCIAL status that causes no traffic school.
Non-commercial, not for hire, class-C legal parameters still apply.

Trailer Park Casanova
01-30-2007, 06:19 PM
Cool....how long you plannin to go for...april & may or longer?
I'm workin on doing the same for about a year or so with the kids
Cool,, a year,, that is excellent!!!
I have indefinate time,, just limited by our 6 year old being outta school.
Probably be a 60 day run.
We want to run the Fla keys, see Ratso in route,, Vermont, and ATV ride various places in between.
Wife has a punch list of places she wants to see.
Where are you guys figuring you'll go?

LUVNLIFE
01-30-2007, 06:48 PM
Also is there added length, over the 65' rule, with the non-com A:)

Beer-30
01-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Also is there added length, over the 65' rule, with the non-com A:)
With the 45 being a fifth, he will definitely be close. Nobody would care at a foot or so over.

curtis73
02-01-2007, 02:39 AM
It is only the COMMERCIAL status that causes no traffic school.
Non-commercial, not for hire, class-C legal parameters still apply.
Disagree. I have a commercial class B and I have done traffic school in CA. Commercial is not the limiting factor, its the type of ticket. Not sure on the specifics, but commercial does NOT equal no traffic school. I have personally done traffic school on a commercial license.

Beer-30
02-01-2007, 11:57 AM
Disagree. I have a commercial class B and I have done traffic school in CA. Commercial is not the limiting factor, its the type of ticket. Not sure on the specifics, but commercial does NOT equal no traffic school. I have personally done traffic school on a commercial license.
How long ago? This has been in effect since last Sept.
I have been in court where people were PLEADING with the judge to allow them traffic school on their commercial lic, but ticket was in a pass car.
Judge, every time, said he couldn't do it. It's a DMV thing, not a court thing.
Maybe you went to traf sch before last Sept?

curtis73
02-01-2007, 09:07 PM
How long ago? This has been in effect since last Sept.
Last sept as in 2006 or 2005? My school would have been older than sept 06 but after sept 05.
Well, crap. Now I have to be careful on the road again :(

Beer-30
02-01-2007, 09:19 PM
Last sept as in 2006 or 2005? My school would have been older than sept 06 but after sept 05.
Well, crap. Now I have to be careful on the road again :(
Sorry, I meant Sept 2005.
Well then, maybe it is Class-A commercial only. I had been informed it was ANY commercial license.