What's your opinion on this?

[Hotcrusader76]

Ok...here's the situation.
I just tore down the ole'Crusader's BBC motor this weekend to find this.
1.Crower cam part#297HDP -01244
2.Cast pistons/crank stock bore/stroke.
3.Rect.port intake/049 oval port heads w/stock valves.
4.Plugged oil pump pick-up screen (silicon strips stuck into the screen)
5.Broken H.Dampner (rubber bulgeing out and torn)
My question is this.....Can I re-use the old rings on the pistons considering the cross-hatch is still visible from it's rebuild? Yes the motor is being completely disassembled!
This is the condition of the engine....
The bores on this engine are "prestine" or should I say "barely" broken in. The compression on the motor is perfect all the way around. The pistons are cast flat-tops, also in "new" condition. No scratches, score marks, or un-even wear noticed. Granted I could replace them with forged versions, but why? The motors components seem nearly new at this point, minus the indicated damaged items.
I am going to replace all the bearings, camshaft (due to rust and pitting on the lobes), and have the heads ported/blended. The heads are being overhauled with the 2.19/1.88 S.S valves, mult.angle valve job, and appropriate new springs from Ed Hale here in SD.
This motor is going to be my cruiser motor, simple Victor tunnel ram with our TPC 660/850s mod running on a simple 100HP N20 plate system for thrills, which is my intention for this project.
The cam is going to be replaced with another Crower version 246/250 at .578"/.593" which will compliment my package.
What do I do with these pistons/rings? They are nearly new!!!! Keep the old rings or get new ones and re-hone the bores a little?
Please advise...
[ March 09, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

[mister460]

Yes, hone bores and replace the rings. Rings are pretty cheap. You want to go with moly faced ductile rings if you're running any nitrous. Cast top rings don't like the extra heat of NOS. Forged pistons are a really good idea with any amount of nitrous but cast ones are generally good up to 150 hp or so.

[Sleek-Jet]

I would say you could re-use the piston rings as long as they go back in the same bore with the same piston. I haven't seen this done on a boat engine, but I've seen this done on other engines, even though the motor guys say you can't, and not had any problems with oil consumption or compression for the life of the motor.
Those engines had much more wear then you indicate on yours also
A quick question though, have you taken the piston out already?
I think all the work on the heads and cam, and even bearings, could be done by pushing all the pistons to the top of the bores.
[ March 09, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: Sleek-Jet ]

[Fiat48]

Next time, leak test the engine before tearing it down. That way you will know where and if it is leaking, rings seating, etc. Compression gauges don't tell much.

[Infomaniac]

Treat the engine like a carburetor.
Do you reuse the powervalve gasket, needle seat "o" ring, or metering block gaskets?
If it is already torn down, why not put it back together properly.
At the very least, put forged pistons in it with nitrous rings. WHY? For the day when everything is not just perfect with the tune up, nitrous system or bad gas etc.

[Hotcrusader76]

Infomaniac and friends,
I agree with you completely. I think my mind is made up to R&R the rings, hone the bores, completely re-balance the rotateing assembly with the old-cast pistons, and blueprint her while building it back up. I noticed alot of "BS" casting flash inside that could use some grinding.
I appreciate everyone's insight and I intend to build her up to my "cruiser" goal specs it's just that Ed Hale has a long wait right now and I really want to eliminate having to take the block in. The heads are a different story...
But on the other hand keeping the rings and pistons in there proper bores would allow me to reuse them as well.
Now for those of you who know me understand that I always like a "clean" and "thorough" overhaul, but I want to keep as many of the new parts as possible,so I keep within my budget.
I will say this though....for any of you who bought a used boat in the past and tore the motor down like I did, probably didn't find a cleaner inside than mine. Now that I am impressed with, cast pistons or not! wink
Heck! I might even just go the extra mile and get the forged pistons. idea
BTW- there was nothing wrong with this motor. I just wanted to tear it down for a "first" time inspection of it's internals, sort of like opening a gift on Xmas. Only I got cast pistons, trashed out dampner, shadey looking cam Crower cam, and stuffed up oil pump...Oh well.
[ March 09, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

[wsm9808]

Ty, I would tend to think the cam you plan to use would need more compression than you have(unless you are running a blower). 049 heads have 119cc chambers and with std flat top pistons will only make around 7.8 or so compression. Bigger cams like/need compression. With a big duration cam, a tunnel ram and low compression your low rpm torque could end up so low you may not have enough power to pull through the power demands of your impeller at lower speeds and end up with a combination that will only pull to around 4000 rpm or less, unless, you are running a very small impeller.
Federal Mogal makes a real good hypereutectic pistion with a .270 dome that will get you closer to 10:1 compression and wont cost too much. I think they retail for around 200.00

[Rexone]

Put pistons and rings in it. Then sell your cast pistons that are in great shape on ebay. There's a customer for everything on ebay :D

[Hotcrusader76]

WSM9808,
First off, I have ran this combo for two years and she ran quick and hard, with tunnel ram and 660s.
Second, I have seen conflicting figures on those heads. Some references show 112cc others show 110cc. I don't remember seeing 119cc though, :confused: I do know that the valves are stock and that upgradeing to the 2.19/1.88 are in order.
Bottomline is, I was impressed with her past performance so I don't plan to change a thing, minus some porting and proper blueprinting. But thank you again for the insight on that.
~Ty

[Jordy]

Hotcrusader76:
Second, I have seen conflicting figures on those heads. Some references show 112cc others show 110cc. I don't remember seeing 119cc though, :confused: From Mortec.com:
353049.....73-84...oval...OPEN...454, 122cc chamber, 255/119cc ports
The easy thing to do would be to have your machine shop cc the heads so you can be sure. I found all kinds of numbers for the cc's on my heads and ultimately just had them cc'ed to be sure because I like to do things the right way. And that did include new pistons, rings and rods when mine was apart. Save a little money now and pay for it a couple times downt the road.

[UBFJ #454]

If you are going to get new pistons, get ones made for nitrous engines: The rings are lower to protect them from the additional heat generated by the added O from the n2o. Also, obviously, use nitrous rings and make sure your A/F ratio stays in the 14.5 range.

[Thunderbutt]

When I suggested to my motor builder to reuse parts he told me to find someone else.

[GofastRacer]

Thunderbutt:
When I suggested to my motor builder to reuse parts he told me to find someone else. Yep, wonder why!. :rolleyes: :D

[Hotcrusader76]

Well I intend to have the chambers CC'd. I am performing a full blueprint (because I enjoy measureing shit, LOL) on this motor. If I bore her out then yes I am going with a new rotateing assembly. Otherwise if the bore-to-piston clearance checks good tonight then I will keep the cast pistons, clean the bores, add new rings and bearings throughout and just keep the N20 under 100hp (I promise! :p )
But this confusion on the head chamber size has got me all ticked off. I know this motor ran strong with the current combo on pump gas. I like the cam and I will be getting a new one with the same grind, but what gives on these heads?
The heads are being dropped off this week to Ed Hale, so I will ask for a courtesy check on at least one of the chambers to verify before I look into piston replacement if necessary.
Thanks for all the help guys. :D
~Ty

[GofastRacer]

Well, if you're happy with the performance of your motor, keep your combination, just freshen it up with new parts!.. wink

[78Eliminator]

Ty, you keep skating around the topic of buying new pistons. Pay now or pay later. Spend the extra $500 for some nice nitrous rated pistons...

[Hotcrusader76]

Thanks Justin, but no thanks. This is a "cruiser" project and my other build is the money maker. As I've been told; "Pimpin ain't easy" :D
I talked to Ed Hale today. The metal goes in this week once the pistons pass inspection. Just a simple refresh for pump gas and a little squeeze.
Late Summer will bring the Merlin. Stay tuned... wink

[78Eliminator]

Hotcrusader76:
Thanks Justin, but no thanks. This is a "cruiser" project and my other build is the money maker. As I've been told; "Pimpin ain't easy" :D
I talked to Ed Hale today. The metal goes in this week once the pistons pass inspection. Just a simple refresh for pump gas and a little squeeze.
Late Summer will bring the Merlin. Stay tuned... wink Why are you installing nitrous on a "cruiser"? When you install nitrous, you loose the "cruiser" status. You are going to fry your pistons, but I won't tell you "I told you so" when you do it.

[Hotcrusader76]

"78Elininator"
Why am I installing N20 on a cruiser? So I can smoke boat that common "cruiser" on demand without the added drama of high compression and limited race gas supply. Anyone who has done a full river season would know how much it sucks (no punn intended) to run on expensive bottled fuel.
How do you figure the cruiser status is lost with an install of 100hp shot of N20? Did you think I was going to run the bottle all day long without a pause? I think your blower would cook a forged piston before my small squeeze would my cast pistons.
You know that when properly set-up and sufficent fuel is present, "and" with the correct A/F ratio this will run dependably all day long.
Bottom-line is that when this motor is assembled correctly with precise tolerances and properly dialed in, a squeeze of N20 isn't going to hurt her lil'cast pistons. I am even going to run a mix of trick to be on the safe side.
Once Ed and I have her on the dyno with a few passes, the numbers will show. Stay tuned...
There is a little phrase I learned while I was out one late Winter night in Korea on a very small boat in 15ft seas....
"If your scared, say your scared" wink

[78Eliminator]

I'm keeping my mouth shut now wink

[058]

Let me get this straight.....I can understand reusing pistons if they are forged, I do when I freshen up an engine but why bother with cast pistons? Are you really serious about re-using the rings? eek! Isn't that going a bit over the top? I mean there is a limit to being thrifty. How do you know if some or all the rings haven't lost their radial tension? Are you going to check tension with a scale? How about ring land wear, has this been checked? If you go to the expense and trouble to do this engine right you can always use it for a trusty backup engine or sell it for alot more than you could by doing it the way you plan now then all it will be is a core when you are done with it. :confused:

[wsm9808]

Ty, keep us posted on the heads, I would be interested to see what yours cc at. The 049 is a good oval port head, and with some light porting like you are doing can make some serious power with a good combination. stock bbc heads can very from casting to casting, but if memery serves me, the ones that I have CCed in the past check in somewhere in the range of 117 to 122cc. I use the 119 figure because my piston catalogs use 100,109,116,119 and 122 as referance CCs in catalogs for compression comparison.
I wasnt knocking your choice of parts and Its great you are happy with your engines past performance. I just felt the compression was a little low to get the full effect of the rest of your parts and wasnt sure if you knew how low the compression is with open chamber heads and flat tops.

[gnarley]

Hotcrusader76, there is a good reason forged pistons are used in high compression engines, they can handle the load without damage most times & even still fail if something is wrong. If you reuse those cast slugs & add the NO2 you will be tearing it apart real soon after you hit the switch if you squirt any real juice in it. Cast slugs aren't ment for the abuse forged pistons get and the NO2 is even more violent of an explosion than a std mix. Save yourself money, forget the NO2 or add forged slugs if you gota have NO2.
You said "a squeeze of N20 isn't going to hurt her lil'cast pistons" You don't know what your talkin about, Sorry wink

[Hotcrusader76]

Wow...will this thread continue to live...LMAO.
058...
Considering my bore-piston clearance is around 0.005" and the bores look prestine, I thought that just a thorough cleaning and new bearings would work. But considering most refresh kits come with rings, then why bother keeping the old ones.
WSM9808...
No sweat. I was a little confused on all the misleading CC numbers floating around. I am going to work the ports a little bit to improve the flow but nothing crazy. I think the short radius needs some material smoothed out and the area under the valve seat. Other than that the upgrade to 2.19/1.88 should help some with those heads.
I do have another question for you guys...
I pulled all the pistons tonight and I am "not" convinced they are cast. They look forged due to the horizontal lines uniformly crossing the sides from the oil land down to the end of the skirt. I took some macro pics of them and will post them to see. Most forged pistons have these lines correct?
The rods are a total loss in my book. One rod looks to have a generous amount of material flaking of the beam. The piston pins look oddly discolored and are tight to move back and forth. Is this normal? Where as some of the other pistons move freely front/back.
The rods are .030" over and the crank is .010". Visually the rods look to have had better days. If I end up replacing the rods and pistons then I might just do the jump into a complete rotating assembly from Scat, blowing my budget in half from the keel on up. :D
Looks like the block and heads are winning the oppurtunity to see the machinist. Otherwise I might have some new TPC Racing Clocks to manufacturer out of the junk parts. idea
Well....off I go and another adventureous night passes... sleeping

[Hotcrusader76]

gnarley:
Hotcrusader76, there is a good reason forged pistons are used in high compression engines, they can handle the load without damage most times & even still fail if something is wrong. If you reuse those cast slugs & add the NO2 you will be tearing it apart real soon after you hit the switch if you squirt any real juice in it. Cast slugs aren't ment for the abuse forged pistons get and the NO2 is even more violent of an explosion than a std mix. Save yourself money, forget the NO2 or add forged slugs if you gota have NO2.
You said "a squeeze of N20 isn't going to hurt her lil'cast pistons" You don't know what your talkin about, Sorry wink Hey there Gnarley....I haven't seen you around in awhile.
Thank you for the advice. I am leaning towards re-allocating the funds for proper component selection vice all show and no go. I believe the cast slugs will take a simple squeeze, but with my addiction for speed I am sure I wouldn't stop there.
I do take your advice to heart and I am sure by this weeks end, forged pistons will be in order. Thank you for the insight on this subject.
For once I might just listen to another gearhead, :rolleyes:

[058]

Ty, just don't try to reuse the rings...no matter what the cyl. walls look like or what pistons you use, thats the utlimate in cheapness, like trying to reuse Holley gaskets. :D

[Hotcrusader76]

or PVs... :p

[Rexone]

or toilet paper. eek!

[Hotcrusader76]

Alright Mike....now your taking "budget" to a new level. eek!

[Blown 472]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hotcrusader76:
[QB] "78Elininator"
I think your blower would cook a forged piston before my small squeeze would my cast pistons.
Two diff worlds here, blower creates cylinder pressure by overcoming volumeteric effec. Which in turn raised the dynamic comp ratio.
Nitrous liberates the oxygen from the air fuel mixture thus creating more cylinder pressure and heat, far more than a blower, why do you think they add the nitrogen and extra fuel, to cool the combustion.

[78Eliminator]

Ty, if you keep telling yourself that your cast slugs are forged, eventually you might start to believe it. wink
Just messing with you big guy! Do what you want. I am just more interested in engineering an entire motor than just slapping something together and seeing if it breaks.

[058]

78Eliminator:
Ty, if you keep telling yourself that your cast slugs are forged, eventually you might start to believe it. wink
Just messing with you big guy! Do what you want. I am just more interested in engineering an entire motor than just slapping something together and seeing if it breaks. "My pistons are forged.....My pistons are forged.....My pistons are....." don't forget to click your heels 3 times when you chant. :D :D Your not in in Kansas anymore, Toto!

[Hotcrusader76]

Well the verdict is out...
The slugs and rods are being tossed. The budget has shifted a few zeros in the digits. The block is now in route to Ed for a bore increase and thorough run-through.
Thank's for all the drama guys :D . I knew I could count on ya'll. I know I am not the most experienced with proper engine component selection, but I believe I might be one of the first to admit it. That's how one gains knowledge and experience.
Remember my favorite quote from Roosevelt; "The man in the Arena" wink
[ March 11, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

[West Coast Dave]

Just to let you know, SRP (made by JE) makes a great piston w/ a 26 cc dome that would work out to 10.3:1 w/ a 119 cc chamber. You could still run pump gas and see a big hp increase compared to the flat tops. That cam shaft would work a lot better w/ more compression....... :)

[Hotcrusader76]

Thanks West Coast Dave. I planned on giving some vendors a call about the JE's anyway. If I am going to spend $600 or so I might as well go with the best.
I am more than impressed with Crower so far. I have decided to go with their valvetrain. The Eagle rods are what I am looking at also.

[Blown 472]

Eagles are chineese junk, buy some Bill Miller, Crowers or something good.

[Schiada76]

Hotcrusader76:
Thanks West Coast Dave. I planned on giving some vendors a call about the JE's anyway. If I am going to spend $600 or so I might as well go with the best.
I am more than impressed with Crower so far. I have decided to go with their valvetrain. The Eagle rods are what I am looking at also. Go with JE's, my SRP's didn't last.

[DogHouse]

Blown 472:
Eagles are chineese junk, buy some Bill Miller, Crowers or something good. Aside from the political/import issue, why are the Eagle rods junk?

[Blown 472]

DogHouse:
Blown 472:
Eagles are chineese junk, buy some Bill Miller, Crowers or something good. Aside from the political/import issue, why are the Eagle rods junk? Bad metalurgy.

[gnarley]

Hotcrusader76, you'll be glad you upgraded! even though it might cost more now :( later when you need to squeeze it, you should have way more confidence in your setup! Nothing worse than underestimating & ruining your day & costing way more than you would of spent doing it right the first time!
My saying from racing days, "Do it right the first time cause you don't have time to do it a second time" applies here or spend enough money doing it the first time or twice as much doing it twice. I’ve got more sayings than this from a few years of experience. You can do what you want or listen to some of us who have a few years & engines under our belts. Nothing I hate worse than comebacks due to a stupid failures that weren’t well thought out!

[DogHouse]

Blown 472:
Bad metalurgy. Do you know if people have been having failures with them? I'm wondering if I need to be worried about the rods in my engine. I also have a friend who runs them in a 1100+hp twin turbo hemi. We haven't had problems... yet. Great, one more thing to worry about!

[Blown 472]

DogHouse:
Blown 472:
Bad metalurgy. Do you know if people have been having failures with them? I'm wondering if I need to be worried about the rods in my engine. I also have a friend who runs them in a 1100+hp twin turbo hemi. We haven't had problems... yet. Great, one more thing to worry about! I have read about them breaking on ford and mopar sites. Maybe they were turning a ton of rpm but the ones that broke said the forging had some diff stuff in them metalury wise. Now that I think about it, they were in truck pull motors.

[Froggystyle]

I'm glad to see you getting the good stuff Ty. If for no other reason than when you get the Merlin in, you will be able to sell this one for a lot more.
On another note, I have had my share of engine builders before, and Ed is absolutely among the very best. He did my blower motor, as well as a couple others for me over the years. Each ran better and stronger than the components alone would suggest.
Good on ya...

[DogHouse]

Blown 472:
I have read about them breaking on ford and mopar sites. Maybe they were turning a ton of rpm but the ones that broke said the forging had some diff stuff in them metalury wise. Now that I think about it, they were in truck pull motors. Mine turns a little over 6k and has seen sustained use at that RPM. Hopefully as long as I don't get any crazier with the RPM, they'll hang in there... eek!

[058]

Blown 472:
DogHouse:
Blown 472:
Bad metalurgy. Do you know if people have been having failures with them? I'm wondering if I need to be worried about the rods in my engine. I also have a friend who runs them in a 1100+hp twin turbo hemi. We haven't had problems... yet. Great, one more thing to worry about! I have read about them breaking on ford and mopar sites. Maybe they were turning a ton of rpm but the ones that broke said the forging had some diff stuff in them metalury wise. Now that I think about it, they were in truck pull motors. Blown, those tractor/truck pullers turn those engines 8K+ for up to 20-25 secs. per run. Eagle rods are good to 7500 rpm only.

[77charger]

Hotcrusader76:
running on a simple 100HP N20 plate system for thrills, which is my intention for this project.
The cam is going to be replaced with another Crower version 246/250 at .578"/.593" which will compliment my package.
I like this part

[Blown 472]

Little self centered isn't he?? :D

[LakesOnly]

But on the other hand keeping the rings and pistons in there proper bores would allow me to reuse them as well.
HC, once they're out of the bore, the above really doesn't matter because the rings will not be re-installed/oriented exactly where they were before removing them, so the wear pattern between the rings/cylinders becomes moot. What's more important in re-using rings is checking ring end gap. It shoud be in spec and not excessive. Keep in mind that bore taper can affect this. Just lighly hone and re-assemble.0
Also, the outward "springiness" of piston rings subside with time once installed/run. This is important to consider because compression rings also rely on combustion getting behind them to force the ring outward to do its job against the cylinder wall (sealing).
Of course, yes, a hone and new rings are the prudent (and safest) way to go.
LO