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ratso
02-07-2007, 09:58 AM
My uncle bought a nice low mileage Ford Diesel from a large Ford Dealership up north. They sold him an extended warranty etc with the truck and he has been driving it a little over a year I suppose. I don't have all the details yet but the motor took a dump. They pulled the head and then called him back about an hour afterwards and said they traced the problem to the "Banks" chip that is in the truck (also has the exhaust done too)... This is the way it was bought from the other dealer, but this Ford dealer claims Ford will not cover the damage. Banks tells him that this chip will not void the warranty. Anybody here ever run across these issues or problems? Should he get an attorney? Naturally he is upset because this truck was up near $50K when he bought it. He is supposed to talk to the Ford rep himself today, but it seems he is SOL...

STV_Keith
02-07-2007, 10:07 AM
Yep, hear it all the time. Bottom line is that anything you add to the truck's power output (drivetrain) that the dealer knows about, can void that powertrain warranty. This is up to the dealer really though. Had he took it back to the same dealership where he bought it (that knew it had power mods), they probably would have been better to work with.
I don't care what Banks says about their no-void-warranty crap, it comes down to the dealer and Ford. The best move is to always remove the power stuff before going in to Ford or any of the manufacturers.

blown65
02-07-2007, 10:11 AM
Yup, should always remove that stuff first if you run it. Its funny though, the local Dodge dealer sells Edge chips in their parts dept, even showing the HOT upgrade for them. LOL
I would think though, if the dealer installed the chip, then you may have a beef with them, otherwise it unfortunately sounds like your up the creek.

Uniqueperformancewest
02-07-2007, 10:12 AM
The dealer can't just say that its the chips fault they do have to PROVE that its the responsibility of the chip. That the chip and aftermarket features cause the problem and they have to be able to show you this.
John
Unique Performance West, Inc.

Run_em_Hard
02-07-2007, 10:48 AM
Yup, should always remove that stuff first if you run it. Its funny though, the local Dodge dealer sells Edge chips in their parts dept, even showing the HOT upgrade for them. LOL
I would think though, if the dealer installed the chip, then you may have a beef with them, otherwise it unfortunately sounds like your up the creek.
The thing that is terrible with this is that once you tap the pump wire on a dodge the warranty is voided.

Whipped Caliber
02-07-2007, 10:59 AM
The dealer can't just say that its the chips fault they do have to PROVE that its the responsibility of the chip. That the chip and aftermarket features cause the problem and they have to be able to show you this.
John
Unique Performance West, Inc.
This is what Ford said to me. I took mine to a ford dealer that works with Banks and they told me that they have to Prove the chip is the problem!! :eek:
Best thing you can do is call Banks and have them talk to the dealer. (626) 969-9600 ask for the techical department.

CBadDad
02-07-2007, 11:08 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
It seems like the dealers spend half of their time trying to sell you an extended warranty when you buy your vehicle and the other half of their time telling you why the problem you are having isn't covered under warranty.

DMOORE
02-07-2007, 11:11 AM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
It seems like the dealers spend half of their time trying to sell you an extended warranty when you buy your vehicle and the other half of their time telling you why the problem you are having isn't covered under warranty.
Ain't that the truth.
Darrell.

shadow
02-07-2007, 11:14 AM
They Dealer can and will not repair a chipped vehicle under warranty if they think the aftermarket chip has anything to do with the failure.Usually smaller
repairs will get covered,but when it comes to replacing an engine under warranty with aftermarket chips usually you will be SOL.
Heres the reason,when Ford or whatever Manufacture calls the failed engine or parts back it's obvious theres a hole burned in the piston from running to lean or whatever the case may be.Now Ford kicks the claim back and says they are not paying the bill.Now the dealer gets stuck with a bill that could easily be several thousands of dollars.
Dealer doesn't want to get stuck paying the bill for joe blows aftermarket add ons.
No aftermarket chips NO QUESTIONS asked that easy it will be repaired.
Therefore will not do the repair caused by chips and does not have to prove anything to the customer.

SoCalHD
02-07-2007, 11:14 AM
I believe that its called the "Magnusson/Moss" act of 19.., that states that there has to be PROOF of the aftermarket add-on causing the problem. They can't just say, "Your aftermarket____ caused the failure, tough.." They actually have to PROVE that part indeed caused said failure.

SoCalHD
02-07-2007, 11:17 AM
Here....
US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312
Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers. If your vehicle manufacturer fails to honor emission/warranty claims, contact EPA at (202) 260-2080 or www.epa.gov. If federal warranty protection is denied, contact the FTC at (202) 326-3128 or www.ftc.gov. For additional information, check out the following links:

ratso
02-07-2007, 11:17 AM
They Dealer can and will not repair a chipped vehicle under warranty if they think the aftermarket chip has anything to do with the failure.Usually smaller
repairs will get covered,but when it comes to replacing an engine under warranty with aftermarket chips usually you will be SOL.
Heres the reason,when Ford or whatever Manufacture calls the failed engine or parts back it's obvious theres a hole burned in the piston from running to lean or whatever the case may be.Now Ford kicks the claim back and says they are not paying the bill.Now the dealer gets stuck with a bill that could easily be several thousands of dollars.
Dealer doesn't want to pay the bill for joe blows aftermarket add ons.
Therefore will not do the repair caused by chips and does not have to prove anything to the customer.
I do understand that... I'll tell him about Banks calling the dealer or maybe seeing if the selling dealer will do something. I suppose it's not looking good...

shadow
02-07-2007, 11:22 AM
I do understand that... I'll tell him about Banks calling the dealer or maybe seeing if the selling dealer will do something. I suppose it's not looking good...
Thats the best bet,get a hold of the selling dealerand the General manager of
that dealer or of both dealers & Banks if you need too.Usually it's not a case of they don't want to repair it.It's a case of they don't want to get stuck with the bgill when Ford kicks it back.
Good luck!

shadow
02-07-2007, 11:48 AM
Here....
US Code - Title 15, Chapter 50, Sections 2301-2312
Legally, a vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty on a vehicle due to an aftermarket part unless they can prove that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to the failure in the vehicle (per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (15 U.S.C. 2302(C)) . For best results, consider working with performance-oriented dealerships with a proven history of working with customers. If your vehicle manufacturer fails to honor emission/warranty claims, contact EPA at (202) 260-2080 or www.epa.gov. If federal warranty protection is denied, contact the FTC at (202) 326-3128 or www.ftc.gov. For additional information, check out the following links:
Not trying to sound like a smart ass but.....
Best of luck with that one!;)
Once that VIN is entered into Oasis as being denied due to aftermarket
add ons you will have a hard time ever getting anything related warrantied.
Best chance is deal directly with the dealer that installed or sold the vehicle with the stuff already installed.

blown65
02-07-2007, 11:59 AM
The thing that is terrible with this is that once you tap the pump wire on a dodge the warranty is voided.
I dunno, I dont own a Dodge so I'm unaware how they work on them. Its odd though that they sell them. I should of asked how the warranty works with them if "They" install the chip. I would think that it would make that deal be on shaky ground installing a chip and then denying warranty down the road.

CA Stu
02-07-2007, 12:03 PM
I do understand that... I'll tell him about Banks calling the dealer or maybe seeing if the selling dealer will do something. I suppose it's not looking good...
Banks did nothing for me when my Cummins VP44 injector pump failed. Their customer service was so underwhelming and useless that I just bit the bullet and spent $2 grand to replace the pump.
Dodge won't warranty a pump with a pierced wire, and waving the Magnuson-Moss act in their face won't do anything. Once Banks has cashed your check, they won't give a crap either.
Jerk at Banks says "You drove your truck in there and they saw the Banks stickers and just denied you for that". What a pompous asshole.
I don't put stickers on my vehicles.
Their customer service sucks, and they will never see another penny of my money. The whole reason that I spent a wad with them was because of their written promise in every ad (at that time) that their products would not void any warranties, and their promise to take care of the customer if there was a conflict.
I'm here to tell you, their "take care of the customer" amounts to a fax or two and then avoiding all your calls. Really disappointing.
Life's too short, pay the money to get it rebuilt yourself and learn from the experience.
Screw Banks.
Thanks
CA Stu

Waldo
02-07-2007, 12:55 PM
SOOOOOOO,
Would adding just an aftermarket exhaust and air intake void a warranty?

shadow
02-07-2007, 01:31 PM
SOOOOOOO,
Would adding just an aftermarket exhaust and air intake void a warranty?
No problem Waldo!

Waldo
02-07-2007, 01:39 PM
No problem Waldo!
Thanks D-man. Just picked up an 06 f350 PSD. Those are the only two performance mods I'll be doing.

blown65
02-07-2007, 02:20 PM
Just dont do aftermarket exhaust on the 08, or at least wait till its approved.
Cant even change the exhaust tip on it without it being a NO NO.

H20 Toie
02-07-2007, 03:04 PM
I put a Banks exhaust on my Hummer and the thing resonated so bad that is was painful to be in the vehicle. Banks refunded my money and paid to have a stock exhaust put back on. Granted it sucked that there stuff didn't work but they did take care of me. That was good customer service.

CA Stu
02-07-2007, 03:52 PM
I put a Banks exhaust on my Hummer and the thing resonated so bad that is was painful to be in the vehicle. Banks refunded my money and paid to have a stock exhaust put back on. Granted it sucked that there stuff didn't work but they did take care of me. That was good customer service.
That is good customer service, for sure.
However, installing a Stinger kit involves a bit more than just bolting on an exhaust, and isn't as easily reversed.
Drilling and tapping for a pyrometer, piercing the control wire for the pump, modifying the wastegate actuator tube, etc. etc.
Is your Hummer a diesel?
My Dodge sounds like a frickin' school bus with the monster 4" straight pipe exhaust. :D
Thanks
CA Stu

ratso
02-07-2007, 04:48 PM
Banks did nothing for me when my Cummins VP44 injector pump failed. Their customer service was so underwhelming and useless that I just bit the bullet and spent $2 grand to replace the pump.
Dodge won't warranty a pump with a pierced wire, and waving the Magnuson-Moss act in their face won't do anything. Once Banks has cashed your check, they won't give a crap either.
Jerk at Banks says "You drove your truck in there and they saw the Banks stickers and just denied you for that". What a pompous asshole.
I don't put stickers on my vehicles.
Their customer service sucks, and they will never see another penny of my money. The whole reason that I spent a wad with them was because of their written promise in every ad (at that time) that their products would not void any warranties, and their promise to take care of the customer if there was a conflict.
I'm here to tell you, their "take care of the customer" amounts to a fax or two and then avoiding all your calls. Really disappointing.
Life's too short, pay the money to get it rebuilt yourself and learn from the experience.
Screw Banks.
Thanks
CA Stu
I guess you are right about Banks... they won't get involved.:jawdrop:
He is supposed to talk to someone at the dealership where the truck came from tomorrow. I suppose if they knew about the add-ons and also sold him extended coverage, maybe they will stand behind it... at least then he might not be out much more than shipping it to Wisconsin for the repair...

shadow
02-07-2007, 05:18 PM
I guess you are right about Banks... they won't get involved.:jawdrop:
He is supposed to talk to someone at the dealership where the truck came from tomorrow. I suppose if they knew about the add-ons and also sold him extended coverage, maybe they will stand behind it... at least then he might not be out much more than shipping it to Wisconsin for the repair...
Ratso,If the truck was purchased with the aftermarket add ons like you said,Tell your uncle to contact the selling dealer and stick to his guns.They should be obligated to handle the repairs one way or another since they sold the vehicle equiped the way it is.
Hopefully he has something stating the way it was equiped when he purchased it.He may have to end up getting an attorney involved if the selling dealer will not help him.
He probablly can't expect the dealer that is caught in the middle to do much for him because there hands are pretty much tied.
Good luck!

ratso
02-07-2007, 05:19 PM
Ratso,If the truck was purchased with the aftermarket add ons like you said,Tell your uncle to contact the selling dealer and stick to his guns.They should be obligated to handle the repairs one way or another since they sold the vehicle equiped the way it is.
Hopefully he has something stating the way it was equiped when he purchased it.He may have to end up getting an attorney involved if the selling dealer will not help him.
He probablly can't expect the dealer that is caught in the middle to do much for him because there hands are pretty much tied.
Good luck!
That's pretty much the point he is at now... Thanks to everybody for the input and info.;)

riverroyal
02-07-2007, 07:34 PM
if a aftermarket exhaust and intake are done can you still lemon law one?:idea:

shadow
02-07-2007, 07:48 PM
if a aftermarket exhaust and intake are done can you still lemon law one?:idea:
Don't have the legal answer on that.Thats usually beyond the Dealership by that point.

riverroyal
02-07-2007, 07:49 PM
Don't have the legal answer on that.Thats usually beyond the Dealership by that point.
rear seal(2nd time in 2 weeks) front seal,oil pan gasket,vacuum pump on a/c knob dealio!!!:D

JAY4SPEED
02-07-2007, 08:05 PM
Shadow explained the dealership's position 100% accurate. I'm on the Chevrolet side but he pretty much described it to a "T". They are in the middle on this one and can be left holding the bag. Its a shame that Banks turned a cold shoulder to him, if their products were so safe and better than factory, they need to stand behind it.
Ratso, I agree that your Uncle's best bet is to keep the heat on the selling dealership and have them work it out with Ford, if it was sold from the dealership with the banks chip in it. Is this extended warranty Ford or an aftermarket extended warranty? Good luck with it!
Jay

shadow
02-07-2007, 08:10 PM
rear seal(2nd time in 2 weeks) front seal,oil pan gasket,vacuum pump on a/c knob dealio!!!:D
exhaust & air intake shouldn't affect any thing that you had repaired or should i say attempted to be repaired.
sounds to me like either Mis diagnoisis or poor workmanship.I've personally done loads of rear mains,front crank seals,oil pans,etc and don't see them back for the same concern.
What dealer are you going to North County Ford?I know some people down there and can see that it is done right if you want.PM me if you want to take it to No County and i'll call and talk to a tech i know will take care of you.

soupersonic
02-07-2007, 08:21 PM
Banks is notorious for that sh*t, Its all over the diesel forums. Their hard parts are very good like the High Ram Intake and their exhaust systems.Their electronics on the other hand, couldnt give me one for that reason plus the cost versus the result inst that great form what i have read.I understand he didnt buy it knowing it had a chip but for those who chip the truck and expect a warranty,you will be your own warranty station :D

blown65
02-07-2007, 08:50 PM
Ive owned quite a few different chips/programmers
Van AAken on my 03 dmax, both edge and pred on my 05 dmax. Didnt use one on my 06 5500 thankfully. Friend of ours has a Banks on his 4500 and works well, good power added. Might get a little more power from edge and predator, but the banks with PDA is a much nicer unit imo.
If your talking about Diesel Place, its full of Banks haters/Edge lovers. Personally I dont see the huge difference between the two other than price, but then the Banks does give you more features that you cant get in the Edge till you step up to the A2 model. At that point, its back to Banks as the cheaper unit.
Personally, I liked my VA the best.

BRSTQUEST
02-07-2007, 09:28 PM
What I don't get is how dealers can have all kinds of after market crap on trucks and sell the truck as new and if I bring in the same excact truck they can say "x" caused the breakage....I had an issue with a vehicle and took it to the dealer, they told me my lift caused the failure....When I pointed out the truck was purchased as new with the lift and I was going to contact an attorney about the situation they changed their minds and my f'ed up front end....I can see I hold some responsibility when I change certain items on my vehicle, but the manufactures and their dealers should stand behind their product....And people wonder why somemany are thinking about converting to Toys and Niss......

Baja Big Dog
02-07-2007, 09:36 PM
1..Get a lawyer
2..Dont think for a minute that Banks will get involved with our problem, he is a piss ant to the major mfgr's, do you think they will listen to him?
3..Dont think for a minute that the Dodge dealer will install a chip on your truck, they may sell them but that doesnt mean they will help with a warranty claim.
4..If you take your truck to the dealer with a hole in the side of the block and your rods are streched an extra inch or so they will deny your claim, they dont have much to prove,
5..Get a lawyer, they have a lot more money and a whole herd of lawyers that work for them, my money is on them winning.
I buy a few hundred thousand dollars worth of parts from a local ford truck dealer, I took my personal truck in and they called me up and suggested that I remove my chip prior to reporting it to ford's data base that I had a chip.
They didnt care about the exhaust or the air cleaner.

driverno8
02-08-2007, 07:57 AM
You're uncles screwed. Sorry to say it like that but it's true. I went throught the same thing with my '04 Cummins. Motor went with 11,017 miles on it while I was 2,000 miles from home in Indiana picking up a 38' Scarab. Banks was zero help. Don't even bother getting a lawyer. It's a waste of money. You'll spend more on the lawyer then it would cost to put a motor in it. You can try to hassle with the selling dealer but it's not going to get you anywhere. That extended warranty they sold him might cover the truck at that dealership. But it doesn't mean squat anywhere else. Pucker up and pay for the motor your self. And remember, if you had any thing to your truck, you're your warranty station. Take it from me, been there, done that.
You might be wondering how I got home with a blown-up truck and a 38' Scarab? While I was the dealer I bought another 3500 Cummins and drove home to CA 4 days later. Had to sleep/live in the boat at a truck stop while the dealer dug into the motor to figure out what's wrong. Not a rental car/truck out there that would have towed that sucker home. Flew back 4 months later and picked up my truck with my new motor.

riverroyal
02-08-2007, 07:01 PM
exhaust & air intake shouldn't affect any thing that you had repaired or should i say attempted to be repaired.
sounds to me like either Mis diagnoisis or poor workmanship.I've personally done loads of rear mains,front crank seals,oil pans,etc and don't see them back for the same concern.
What dealer are you going to North County Ford?I know some people down there and can see that it is done right if you want.PM me if you want to take it to No County and i'll call and talk to a tech i know will take care of you.
they have servicing my last 3 trucks,no issues until this one

ToMorrow44
02-08-2007, 07:13 PM
I have an 02 7.3L Diesel with everything banks offers and the thing runs like a raped ape. Tows the boat up the Needles grades at 90 in overdrive. Now if the truck in question here has a 6.0, then thats a whole different world. At one time or another, every single part on the 6.0 has failed, just look up all the service bulletins for those. Don't be going and blaming Banks now they do a ton of research to make sure all their products are safe for every motor. It's probably just the motor itself if its a 6.0.
just my .02
-Tom

shadow
02-08-2007, 07:13 PM
they have servicing my last 3 trucks,no issues until this one
By any chance do you know the Techs name that has been working on the oil leaks.
i used to work there about 6yrs ago and i know a few of the techs that have been there for a few years.

riverroyal
02-08-2007, 07:15 PM
By any chance do you know the Techs name that has been working on the oil leaks.
i used to work there about 6yrs ago and i know a few of the techs that have been there for a few years.
mike stevenson is the writer,will the techs name be on the RO??

shadow
02-08-2007, 07:24 PM
mike stevenson is the writer,will the techs name be on the RO??
Mike must have started after i left,his name doesn't ring a bell.
The tech's employee # will probablly be on the RO & not his name.Does
Scott,Robert or Larry ring a bell?
I brought Scott in about 7yrs ago and i know he is very contentious (sp?)
about the work he does.
Robert is also very good although i'm not 100% he is still there,Don't know Larry real well only met him.
Scott and i are friends and i'd be happy to call him direct for you.

riverroyal
02-08-2007, 07:31 PM
Mike must have started after i left,his name doesn't ring a bell.
The tech's employee # will probablly be on the RO & not his name.Does
Scott,Robert or Larry ring a bell?
I brought Scott in about 7yrs ago and i know he is very contentious (sp?)
about the work he does.
Robert is also very good although i'm not 100% he is still there,Don't know Larry real well only met him.
Scott and i are friends and i'd be happy to call him direct for you.
its all fixed again now!!I do know the guy that worked on the heating issues is the shop foreman,he was great.I stopped by one day towing my 5th wheel,in 5 minutes he was in the truck with his laptop,we drove around for a hour watching the temps on the screen.The dealership has be good,just a lemon truck I think.They called me with a good deal to trade mine on a 08 last night,but it may be too much......plus I already owe you a few beers from the last time!I would need to stop at karl strauss for a keg at this rate

shadow
02-08-2007, 07:36 PM
its all fixed again now!!I do know the guy that worked on the heating issues is the shop foreman,he was great.I stopped by one day towing my 5th wheel,in 5 minutes he was in the truck with his laptop,we drove around for a hour watching the temps on the screen.The dealership has be good,just a lemon truck I think.They called me with a good deal to trade mine on a 08 last night,but it may be too much......plus I already owe you a few beers from the last time!I would need to stop at karl strauss for a keg at this rate
Well if you ever need me to call down and put a foot in thier ass let me know.:D
I haven't talked to those guys in awhile and the ones i know there i'm sure would be willing to do whatever it takes to get you fixed.:)

riverroyal
02-08-2007, 07:40 PM
Well if you ever need me to call down and put a foot in thier ass let me know.:D
I haven't talked to those guys in awhile and the ones i know there i'm sure would be willing to do whatever it takes to get you fixed.:)
I just hope you never see me at your work!!That would mean it was a loonnggg drive from here to there:D

shadow
02-08-2007, 07:46 PM
I just hope you never see me at your work!!That would mean it was a loonnggg drive from here to there:D
Yeah but when people break down here in Havasu i tell them Just think theres worse places you could be stranded.

Sotally Tober
02-08-2007, 07:52 PM
I guess I had better luck. I put the Banks on my 7.3 and lost my tranny at 30k. The truck was 2 years old and under warranty. I'm sure it was from pulling 12K and laying rubber with a dually. Left all the kit on. Even the spliced wiring into the tranny for the transcommand. No questions asked and got a new one under warranty.
I do think Banks makes a good product. Thing are going to break when you start hot rodding. I do not put my foot in it until I'm already moving..I watch it now and have 100K trouble free miles.

ratso
02-15-2007, 09:29 AM
UPDATE...
The Ford Dealer where my uncle's truck was at told him something like 7K to do the heads or around 16K I believe to replace the motor, but they weren't touching it to find out what the problem was with the motor internally without him forking over some dough, warranty or not,http://***boat.com/ubb/mad.gif because the Banks stuff voided the warranty. Anyway, my uncle calls me up yesterday and says "Guess What? I'm driving my truck"...I'm asking him how that can be because there wasn't enough time to get all that settled. Turns out, he called a friend of his with another Ford Dealership and they told him to bring it in and they would take care of it, whatever it was... He got a call a few hours later, seems his fuel gauge was reading wrong, it was out of diesel and he had 2 clogged injectors... One day later he is back on the road... no charge... I know some of the people that work at the first dealership... I can't wait to tell them what pieces of shit they are...:D

blown65
02-15-2007, 09:55 AM
Wow!

shadow
02-15-2007, 11:01 AM
UPDATE...
The Ford Dealer where my uncle's truck was at told him something like 7K to do the heads or around 16K I believe to replace the motor, but they weren't touching it to find out what the problem was with the motor internally without him forking over some dough, warranty or not,http://***boat.com/ubb/mad.gif because the Banks stuff voided the warranty. Anyway, my uncle calls me up yesterday and says "Guess What? I'm driving my truck"...I'm asking him how that can be because there wasn't enough time to get all that settled. Turns out, he called a friend of his with another Ford Dealership and they told him to bring it in and they would take care of it, whatever it was... He got a call a few hours later, seems his fuel gauge was reading wrong, it was out of diesel and he had 2 clogged injectors... One day later he is back on the road... no charge... I know some of the people that work at the first dealership... I can't wait to tell them what pieces of shit they are...:D
Wow! good news for you Uncle.
I'd definately contact at least the service manager if not the general manager and tell them about this Major misdiagnois.

ZBODaytona
02-15-2007, 11:05 AM
that is good for him....Had something similar happen with my 7.3 (it was chipped for oh 80,000 miles) this happened at 90,000. I took it to my local dealer it was dropping cylinders. First time the replace ICM and then the second time they say it is the chip and they aren't touching it....so i take it to a more trust worthy shop and are straight up with them about everything.. They say no way it is the chip and said that a couple wires were worn and were arching...thats what fired the ICM the first time,,,,simple fix and i was out..they just laughed about the other dealership. Seems my original one's service department lost the main mech and has been going down hill...on the diesels that is.

CBadDad
02-15-2007, 02:22 PM
Wow! good news for you Uncle.
I'd definately contact at least the service manager if not the general manager and tell them about this Major misdiagnois.
Ya, I bet they'll have a good laugh about that one. :rolleyes:

plaster dave
02-15-2007, 03:08 PM
I thought I read some where that with all the money problem Ford and GM were having that they were instucted to deny all cliams that deal with after market vehicles.