Knowledge is power

[Poster X]

This is as about the most sane explanation I've ever heard for making our immigration policy a priority. If you do not watch it until it's conclusion.. you're not qualified to discuss immigration.
Making sense of our immigration policy (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=number)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

This is as about the most sane explanation I've ever heard for making our immigration policy a priority. If you do not watch it until it's conclusion.. you're not qualified to discuss immigration.
Making sense if our immigration policy (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=number)
I believe that this was posted previoulsy by Rexone. The numbers are scary. Obviously, something has got to change, quickly!
John M

[Poster X]

I believe that this was posted previoulsy by Rexone. The numbers are scary. Obviously, something has got to chage, quickly!
John M
My bad. Didn't see it.

[bigq]

You are correct sir it is the best....great video!

[ULTRA26 # 1]

My bad. Didn't see it.
Glad you posted it again. Needed the reminder.
JM

[Moneypitt]

And those numbers only represent the LEGAL immigrants, throw in another MILLION illegal immigrants each year..........Being old, as selfish as it sounds, aint all that bad.........MP

[asch]

That's all fine and good but to expand his gum ball demo a little further:
The small bowl represents the immigration situation and the huge tube represents ALL of America's problems, immigration is but a drop in the bucket (or bowl). While congress reversing the allowable "numbers" back to 1965 standards would be helpful, we still have much to be undone that has been done in this and the last century. The ANSWER, in my opinion, is to start over completely. Reverse every constitutional amendment and law that has been enacted in the last 100 years. I realize there are implications to this, yes I know. In the interim there would have to be TEMPORARY suspension of constitutional rights and possibly a dictatorship established. Yes, temporary...until the repercussions of the transition run their course. Then and only then would constitutional rights be restored.
Anything less than this is subject to inevitable entropy, as it is now. We are well on our way to burning out as a superpower and as a country.
-Wishful thinking

[Poster X]

That's all fine and good but to expand his gum ball demo a little further:
The small bowl represents the immigration situation and the huge tube represents ALL of America's problems, immigration is but a drop in the bucket (or bowl). While congress reversing the allowable "numbers" back to 1965 standards would be helpful, we still have much to be undone that has been done in this and the last century. The ANSWER, in my opinion, is to start over completely. Reverse every constitutional amendment and law that has been enacted in the last 100 years. I realize there are implications to this, yes I know. In the interim there would have to be TEMPORARY suspension of constitutional rights and possibly a dictatorship established. Yes, temporary...until the repercussions of the transition run their course. Then and only then would constitutional rights be restored.
Anything less than this is subject to inevitable entropy, as it is now. We are well on our way to burning out as a superpower and as a country.
-Wishful thinking
Wow. I think that's forum blasphemy and antidisestablishmentarianism? :D
Not that I'm opposed, but I just don't think it's quite that dire? We certainly need to walk backwards a few steps and bitch slap the government back into reality. They HAVE forgotten they work for us.

[Moneypitt]

Wow. I think that's forum blasphemy and antidisestablishmentarianism? :D
Not that I'm opposed, but I just don't think it's quite that dire? We certainly need to walk backwards a few steps and bitch slap the government back into reality. They HAVE forgotten they work for us.
Very good, but how do we, as a people united, do that???
Voting regularily aint working, we get the same shit regardless of which party is in the whitehouse, same for the congress and senate....They're all ex lawyers!!! How can we bitch slap them into reality?? I mean it, honestly I've seen this shit for ever, nothing ever changes....62 years later and we're still in "Vietnam", just a different geographic location.........Aid sent all over the planet, and people living in the streets right here in the US.....Doctors donating time and operating rooms to help 3rd world kids, and our wounded veterans getting 2nd class care...........How do WE, all of us, tell the powers that be we're ALL tired of it.....And don't say vote, cause that doesn't work.....I think we need another AMERICAN REVOLUTION, and we need it NOW.....MP

[Poster X]

First thing we need to do is wipe this party affiliation bullshit off the board. A simple thing like us getting our shit together enough to elect an independent would be a huge start. Secondly, the unibrows need to learn that a catch phrase is not news nor is it a rational synopses of a candidates policies. Perhaps we can get volunteers to read them stories from the paper (all the way through?) Third and most important is we need to kick the electoral vote to the curb. Those simple steps would go a long way toward getting this government back to the people and it's policies more in line with popular opinion. It would also be helpful if all candidates fund raising went into a pool and all candidates divided it equally to boost their campaigns. We have to get away from "he with the most money wins."

[Moneypitt]

Sorry Poser, the "He/she with the most marbles wins" has been, and will be, the American way. There are factors driving our government from outside. ie: big oil, banks, greenpeace, agriculture/farming, and a host of smaller interests with the funds to influence the weak kneed morons that always seem to end up in the wrong places, and make the wrong decisions. From war to foriegn aid, to secret government funding of un desirable projects. We the people are stuck in a rut of inability to make changes, and an inability to change that!! I do not have a speel about "party affiliation" because it is usually the "lesser" of two evils in the voting booth. Which brings up another point. When "none of the above" was put on the ballot it was designed to eliminate both, or all, canidates. But the politicians arranged it so all that did was nulify that vote, even if "none of the above" got the most votes, we're still stuck with the next in line.
When this country was founded, and laws and procedures inacted, the elected person was held accountable by the people that elected him. In todays areana, the "elected" is out of touch and out of reach of those they represent. Sure we can write to them, e mail them, call their office, and be ignored......It was much harder for an "elected" to ignore a mob with a rope!!!! It would seem we have the cyberspace superhighway to work with, and should be able to barrage the "elected" eaiser than before with e mails. But one little threat, like "get your act together and do what you were elected to do or else", will get you a set of matching bracelets as a "terrorist threat".....As I recall, the "proposistion process" used to require 2/3rds vote to pass. The "elected" decided 50% was enough to enact laws and policies. Why not 50% to recall the "elected". And do it TOMORROW.. Oh and one more thing I want to rant about.........Bi lingual ballots. 1st, you have to be a citizen to vote, agreed?....2nd, to be a citizen you MUST read and write and understand ENGLISH, agreed?.....So someone please explain to me why we need ballots in other than ENGLISH??? I think this should be high on the peoples list of wrongs that need to be righted, TOMORROW!!....Rant over, MP

[058]

We can have a "vote of confidence"...that would be a start.

[Moneypitt]

We can have a "vote of confidence"...that would be a start.
Just another angle of "party lines". You know when congress does that shit it is usually divided right down the aisle, and they're certainly not going to instigate a vote like that about themselves!!! Any president can only do so much. It is the senate and the house that continually screw us over with expenditures for some dirt bag 3rd world country that can't wait to burn our flags and generally shit on us at their first chance. Stop it all......We should have an easily accsesible report daily on what our "elected" are doing. Plain english, not some legal mumbo jumbo no one ever understands after all the "party" spin........I guess asking a bunch of ex lawyers to tell the truth is beyond hope........Example: Today I voted to send xxxxxx,(country) $xxxxxxxxxx,(dollars of YOUR tax money), for xxxxx, and xxxxxxx....In return for this expenditure we can expect to receive xxx, xxxxxx, and xxxxxxx. Or I voted AGAINST the above example.....I know of the congressional record newspaper, but to me that is not plain english. Why does the news have to be such one sided party bias, regardless of where we choose to hear it? The "no spin zone" is crap, nicely done, but still crap, and the other news sources are worse.........When was the last time you heard of a congressman/woman having a town meeting? Not counting election years when they need you money and support? One week a month every congressperson should be required to carry out 6 nights of open meetings with those that elected them. Ever notice how most, if not all meetings of this type are during working hours? The only ones attending are those who what a "piece" of the "elected" and have the money to carry out their plan.......How many working stiffs can afford to go to the elaberate BS dinners? Every "elected", regardless if its local or national should have their lives on camera 24-7.........What have you done for me lately???..........MP

[Old Texan]

How about some thoughts of a "No Party" system. Just a bunch of independents running on their own. House speaker and Senate Maj. Leader chosen on majority vote.
What would we have? Alliances built around common goals? Corporate lackies? (Already got those). Special interest group representatives? A Congress full of Lobbyists?:confused:
Most in congress seem like they could never get along with others growing up, maybe they'd be forced to change and learn how to share or work together. Who knows. :eek:
I have no idea how this would / could work. Watcha y'all think?:idea:
It's late in the day, end of the week andcold beer sounds better than politics right now.:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

It's late in the day, end of the week andcold beer sounds better than politics right now.:D
I'll second that
JM

[CA Stu]

Reverse every constitutional amendment and law that has been enacted in the last 100 years. I realize there are implications to this, yes I know. In the interim there would have to be TEMPORARY suspension of constitutional rights and possibly a dictatorship established.
Best post ever. :rolleyes:
Don't give those darkies the vote! Women neither!
And let's appoint a dictator to trample our few remaining civil liberties!
You gotta be shitting me. Pathetic.
“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” - Winston Churchill
Thanks
CA Stu

[CA Stu]

How about some thoughts of a "No Party" system. Just a bunch of independents running on their own. House speaker and Senate Maj. Leader chosen on majority vote.
What would we have? Alliances built around common goals? Corporate lackies? (Already got those). Special interest group representatives? A Congress full of Lobbyists?:confused:
Most in congress seem like they could never get along with others growing up, maybe they'd be forced to change and learn how to share or work together. Who knows. :eek:
I have no idea how this would / could work. Watcha y'all think?:idea:
It's late in the day, end of the week andcold beer sounds better than politics right now.:D
I reckon term limits are a better answer. And I mean 4 years, and out of the government entirely, not just out of office.
Career politicians end up beholden to special interests every time, and end up not only out of touch with their constituents, but tend to totally forsake them, too.
Sometimes they get the "I know what is best for you" attitude too.
I'm with you on the beer, though.
My local liquor store has some new Stone brewery 11.2% barleywine style ale. I'm going to see how many of them it takes to make me fall over.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Old Texan]

I reckon term limits are a better answer. And I mean 4 years, and out of the government entirely, not just out of office.
Career politicians end up beholden to special interests every time, and end up not only out of touch with their constituents, but tend to totally forsake them, too.
Sometimes they get the "I know what is best for you" attitude too.
I'm with you on the beer, though.
My local liquor store has some new Stone brewery 11.2% barleywine style ale. I'm going to see how many of them it takes to make me fall over.
Thanks
CA Stu
I've been arguing term limits for years now. Old Senators get to feeling like royalty in their elitist minds. Gov Romney replied about T Kennedy when asked how he dealt with him: "He's realy good for the state as he brings lots of "pork" home keeping the citizens happy." Grrrrrrrr...
Deals and cliques is the DC way of life.
Now about the "serious" stuff. Stone Brewery eh? Sounds like I need to try some. I'm about 2/3 of the way through a 6 pack of Broken Halo IPA brewed in Portland. New brew at the my TX supply store. Goin' down good. Cheers.....:D

[Moneypitt]

My local liquor store has some new Stone brewery 11.2% barleywine style ale. I'm going to see how many of them it takes to make me fall over.
Thanks
CA Stu
I'll say 3 in an hour, ......11+% is stout ale!!!! Thats more than a sixer of 5% Budweiser...Any other predictions?.............MP
PS: I'm headed for the Jack...........

[058]

Just another angle of "party lines". You know when congress does that shit it is usually divided right down the aisle, and they're certainly not going to instigate a vote like that about themselves!!! Any president can only do so much. It is the senate and the house that continually screw us over with expenditures for some dirt bag 3rd world country that can't wait to burn our flags and generally shit on us at their first chance. Stop it all......We should have an easily accsesible report daily on what our "elected" are doing. Plain english, not some legal mumbo jumbo no one ever understands after all the "party" spin........I guess asking a bunch of ex lawyers to tell the truth is beyond hope........Example: Today I voted to send xxxxxx,(country) $xxxxxxxxxx,(dollars of YOUR tax money), for xxxxx, and xxxxxxx....In return for this expenditure we can expect to receive xxx, xxxxxx, and xxxxxxx. Or I voted AGAINST the above example.....I know of the congressional record newspaper, but to me that is not plain english. Why does the news have to be such one sided party bias, regardless of where we choose to hear it? The "no spin zone" is crap, nicely done, but still crap, and the other news sources are worse.........When was the last time you heard of a congressman/woman having a town meeting? Not counting election years when they need you money and support? One week a month every congressperson should be required to carry out 6 nights of open meetings with those that elected them. Ever notice how most, if not all meetings of this type are during working hours? The only ones attending are those who what a "piece" of the "elected" and have the money to carry out their plan.......How many working stiffs can afford to go to the elaberate BS dinners? Every "elected", regardless if its local or national should have their lives on camera 24-7.........What have you done for me lately???..........MP
We would have a better chance of getting a vote of confidence than what you propose. Although what you propose isn't such a bad idea but it stands a snowball's chance in hell. Here in the Bay Area we have a far left wing congressman that thinks he is some sort of potentate. He has been in office for as long as I can remember and seems to keep getting re-elected where all along I thought we had some sort of term limits. This guy is a complete a$$hole, he verbablly abuses his consitiutents even the ones that agrees with him. If you are on the wrong side of him politically there is no end to his wrath. Publically stated he hates all Republicans and those that don't follow Democratic party lines. Serve the people? Not this idiot, he thinks he is above the lowly serfs that elect him but he is in a district that is very safe for any Dem.

[Rexone]

I believe that this was posted previoulsy by Rexone. The numbers are scary. Obviously, something has got to change, quickly!
John M
Actually I posted it a couple times in different threads which evolved into some interesting conversation
Thread 1 (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135182) Thread 2 (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138637)
But the link was originally posted by shaken not stirred so I can't take credit for it.

[eliminatedsprinter]

All this doom and gloom and yet we are the most prosperous and powerful society the planet has ever seen. Sure we need to start dismantling the system that has has made our nation more than 4x richer than the second richest nation in the world.:rolleyes: By all means, lets tear apart the society and suspend the liberties that have, for the first time in human history, produced more self made wealthy people than those with inherited wealth.:rolleyes: Never in the history of the world have so many people lived so well as we do in the U.S.A. We just can't have that!!!:eek: :rolleyes:

[Rexone]

It all comes back to what the chart at the end of the video shows. If the immigration trend is not reversed (and world population not controlled for that matter) none of what you say eliminatedsprinter (which may be presently true) will matter at all. The US will fail as initial signs are already there (overcrowding and overburdening of just about every public service we have from education to medical care to infrastructure and the ability to keep up with the need for more of all those). On an even broader scope the world will fail as well as huge wars and famines develop over such basic necessities as food and clean water. At that point it will not matter much who or what country has wealth. The have nots will simply overrun the haves and it becomes a moot point. If a few of the have nots have nukes or bio weapons to get what they need the process will be accelerated. That or the haves will simply exterminate the billions of have nots because they have the means to. Either way, an ugly end to a poorly concieved population plan by the whole world and its leaders who are charged with having the foresight to prevent such scenarios.
This is what our children's children have to look forward to based on our past, present, and likely future leaders decisions to allow excessive immigration and uncontrolled population growth for what will then be about 100 years.
Rewatching that video, I find it hard to believe any elected official could ignore the reality of what the result of the present course and policy is producing. I guess that's the power of greed and money. It's all about them and now and little or nothing about the consequences of their inactions on those generations 50-100 years down the road. That's about the time period in which the bubble will explode in some form based on the video. The toddlers of today will be dealing directly with the huge problems the present policy will produce in their lifetimes. I can almost assure everyone, how big a performance boat or lake house to buy will not be on any of their grandchildren's to do lists given all of the above. My guess is their to do list will include such things as where to get uncontaminated food, how to educate their children, how to get medical care, where to live that is safe (perhaps including where to move that third world armies are not overruning and plundering), and stuff like that. If there's ***boats or any form of uncontaminated outdoor recreation available for US inhabitants on the present course it would surprise me.
To help visualize where I'm going with this, visualize what the US and the world were like 100 years ago in 1907. Think of the highly accelerated changes that have been seen in the last 100 years vs the 100 year prior (1807-1907) or even the last 50 in the case of immigration. Apply that accelerated level of change to the next 100 years. 2107, if it occurs will have little resemblence to today. The US and the world will have multiple times the people it has now if it survives and is somehow able to support those levels. The world and the US are both finite entities in terms of size and ability to support population. Population on the other hand is just the opposite and is a hungry monster left uncontrolled, that will consume every last resource available to survive.
Doom and gloom? Maybe. Or impending reality? One thing's for sure, hindsight will be 100% and the leaders that set it in motion or failed to stop it won't be around to deal with the results of their policies.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there arn't problems to be delt with. My response was ment to provide a little more positive perspective. It was directed more twards some of the posts that suggest overreacting and tossing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.:) I like some of the above ideas, ie better reporting of what Congress is doing etc..But some of the others like suspending civil liberties and tossing out the electoral college would make things worse not better.

[Poster X]

How could tossing out the electoral college make things worse? The most corrupt aspect of modern politics is the zoning bias. The electoral vote could logically be connected to voting apathy the last 3 decades.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Good for it!! I don't want apathetic (AKA uninformed) voters selecting our nations leader.
The electoral college was created to prevent our Nation's major population centers from undue influence in choosing the President. To some extent I feel it has helped a in this regard. I live in a major population center (So Cal) and I still feel it is important, that they (the major centers) not control the nation.

[Rexone]

I'm not a fan of the electoral system either. Take California just as a small slice for an example. A good percentage of Californians voted republican. California is large so even a 40% slice is a large number of people. That 40% (hypothetical #) is not heard. It's several million peoples wishes. The fact that they're not heard and they know they're not going to be heard because of the advance polling... well why vote? Even though I vote I've often felt why bother for this very reason.
There was an election a while back (it escapes me which one at the moment) where Ca went dem on a very close margin like 49-51. That 49% which is millions of people went entirely ignored. That's bs imo. You can carry the scenario across the country with many many similar examples.
We have something like 30-40% voter turnout at best. I feel the above is a major reason as I think PX eluded to. If you know your vote doesn't mean shit why make the effort? This is true in every state that's not hotly contested for electoral votes.
Every other election in the country is decided by popular vote. How is it that those can all be valid and just but not for the presidency? I'm not buying it. You can look at this issue from either side of the fence and I've pondered it for decades from both sides. My personal opinion is that the electoral college is anti productive in encouraging people to vote and electing the person the people want elected. And I fully understand the reasons it was created and the arguments for it. I just don't think they hold water. And I realize Al Gore would be president based on my argument in 2000 based on popular vote. And I really don't like Al Gores political views. Not that I like Bush's much better in many areas. Again a lesser of two undesireables for me.
Furthur, in a state like California that's dem. dominated but still has a very large contingent of republican voters in numbers, candidates of both parties pretty much bypass it because it has no value (electorally) to either party being a shoe in for the dems. They don't even bother to campaign here other than for hollywood's money. That's a disservice to the voters imo who don't get the opportunity to see and hear the candidates as people in other swing states do that are hotly contested and highly campaigned by the candidates.
My feeling is you have apethetic uninformed voters running the show now for the above reason. The ones that give a shit stay home for a large part. You're going to have apethetic and uninformed either way so I don't think it's a big issue in an argument for or against the electoral college.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Not all states are all or nothing in their electoral votes.The founders left it up to the states to determine how they give out their electoral votes. We have the most dumb voters, so therefore we do it in the dumbest way. One of the things politicians complain about, here in Ca, is how candidates ignore us during the general election. If they were serious about it and Ca voters cared, we would change our system, to either giving out our electoral votes in a proportional mannor or by districts. Ultimately it is Ca's voters who are the ones who accept our current system and are too dumb to demand it change, and not the fault of the electoral college.

[Moneypitt]

IMO, the electorial vote should be split, percentage wise, along the percentage vote of the people. Anything else is wrong.........MP

[Rexone]

Not all states are all or nothing in their electoral votes.The founders left it up to the states to determine how they give out their electoral votes. We have the most dumb voters, so therefore we do it in the dumbest way. One of the things politicians complain about, here in Ca, is how candidates ignore us during the general election. If they were serious about it and Ca voters cared, we would change our system, to either giving out our electoral votes in a proportional mannor or by districts. Ultimately it is Ca's voters who are the ones who accept our current system and are too dumb to demand it change, and not the fault of the electoral college.
I may be wrong but I don't remember any states splitting their electoral votes 2 ways in past recent elections even though they might be allowed to.

[Rexone]

IMO, the electorial vote should be split, percentage wise, along the percentage vote of the people. Anything else is wrong.........MP
How is that different than just using the popular vote?

[Moneypitt]

How is that different than just using the popular vote?
I guess it's the same, just smaller numbers to deal with.....I don't have answers, just questions. Something has to change to hold these jerks accountable for what they do after they're elected. There are too many people that are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!!!"....I'm one.........MP

[Rexone]

I guess it's the same, just smaller numbers to deal with.....I don't have answers, just questions. Something has to change to hold these jerks accountable for what they do after they're elected. There are too many people that are "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore!!!"....I'm one.........MP
I disagree. There are plenty of people mad as hell. But we all do continue to take it. :(
All while about 80% of the people just don't give a shit enough to demand any change. (10% of voters and the other 70% who don't vote). Just guessing on the numbers but I'll bet I'm not too far off.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I disagree. There are plenty of people mad as hell. But we all do continue to take it. :(
All while about 80% of the people just don't give a shit enough to demand any change. (10% of voters and the other 70% who don't vote). Just guessing on the numbers but I'll bet I'm not too far off.
It may be that the people don't see any possibility of a change in direction no matter who is elected or what is demanded.
John M

[Rexone]

It may be that the people don't any possibility of a change in direction no matter who is elected or what is demanded.
John M
I don't disagree with that. It's the way I feel much of the time when I vote. But it will take the vast majority of US citizens on board to result in any significant change (like everyone calling their congressmen and senators telling them to follow the peoples will or they'll be voted out, and then voting them all out).
Two problems with that:
1. The people are way too divided on what the direction should be even tho the present direction things are going to most is an incorrect one. (Most like to piss and moan about shit but offer no real answers as an alternative to what is now).
2. The people as a whole are too apethetic to ever get involved on a large scale basis to cause such change (revolution basically) of direction in congress. A few people who are complaining and concerned won't bring about change because these congress people know a few can't vote them out and the apethetic majority will keep voting them in.
The other option of actually overthrowing the government by force isn't even in the realm of reality. Again apathy rules. The rich and financially stable certainly don't want much change. The struggling middle class and poor just get by paycheck to paycheck or welfare and have no time, energy or knowledge on how to effect any real change.
imo the whole system is broken and not anything like what our founding fathers had in mind when they created it. Congress and the administration don't do what the people want. Nor do they often do what's best for US citizens interests and welfare. The legal system is broken too, bogged down in a quagmire of defending criminals rights and being PC. Basically they're all attorneys just working the system to get what they want (money and power) and fock what's right or what's best or solving any real problems. The whole system avoids handing out harsh sentences to those who most deserve them, and avoids addressing the whole subject of open borders being a security risk or putting any type of harness on illegal immigration.
The government even though a democracy at least by name has become somewhat of a form of dictatorship (the entire government and legal systems). It is certainly not a government controlled or directed much by the people, but more by a few thousand elected and appointed officials, attorneys and so on. While not a repressive dictatorship (probably only because of a strong constitution) it is certainly not a free well working democracy that reflects the wishes of the constituants to a large extent. I'll bet if a poll were taken of all US citizens on their governments performance (including all branches and the legal system) the score would be very low.
But all that aside, getting back to the topic of this thread, immigration and how it will affect the future... it's a bleak outlook down the road 50-100 years and there's no one in charge or on the horizon that appears to have any interest in changing it.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Rex,
The video demonstration was a rude awakening for me. I knew immigration was out of control but had no idea of the degree.
John M

[Rexone]

Rex,
The video demonstration was a rude awakening for me. I knew immigration was out of control but had no idea of the degree.
John M
It is rather sobering. The sad part is that it will destroy the US as we know it because there will be no way to support the numbers coming in, in years to come. As mentioned before there's already signs of this... health care, education, infrastructure... all struggling to a degree.
Of coarse that's if we're not blown up by terrorists that walk in or the rest the planet doesn't overrun us because of their population explosions or our foreign policy shortcomings.
Live for today, cause tomorrow could be a focked up mess.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

What gets me is that Dems and Reps alike are not discussing many of the serious issues faced by this country.
Immigration, our borders, alternative energy sources and desalinization are issues that require immediate attention. Of course there are other important issues but I see the ones I mentioned at the top of the list. We are running out of water and oil, which directly relate to immigration and our changing climate. Unless we eliminate our dependence on energy, that we obtain from crazy, third world, clan based governments, our independence as a nation, remains at risk. Not to mention that we are on the virge of economic collapse as a result of this dependence. A candidate or group of candidates focused on these objectives would get my vote.
John M

[Moneypitt]

Mike, the revolution has begun. However it is not the American citizens doing the revolting. It is the outsiders comming here and revolting against the American way. Even legal immigrants are not assimulating into the American way of life, speaking english, or accepting American customs as their own. This IS a revolution. There have been several quotes from Mexican rebels about them re taking the southwest, and frankly, there is nothing to stop them.........We better wake the hell up, and quick.............MP

[Poster X]

The people need a lobbyist.
Whether they are right or wrong the biggest portion of "non-voters" will tell you in a heartbeat, "I don't vote because it doesn't matter anyway." This attitude can be directly traced to the electoral college. The college took the will of the people and transferred it into regions and zones which essentially eliminated popular vote. The last two elections alone should provide fairly relevant evidence that the electoral college does not represent the will of the people and will most likely create even more voter apathy.

[steelcomp]

What gets me is that Dems and Reps alike are not discussing many of the serious issues faced by this country.
Immigration, our borders, alternative energy sources and desalinization are issues that require immediate attention. Of course there are other important issues but I see the ones I mentioned at the top of the list. We are running out of water and oil, which directly relate to immigration and our changing climate. Unless we eliminate our dependence on energy, that we obtain from crazy, third world, clan based governments, our independence as a nation, remains at risk. Not to mention that we are on the virge of economic collapse as a result of this dependence. A candidate or group of candidates focused on these objectives would get my vote.
John MWe are not running out of oil or water. The "cimate" isn't changing enough to make any difference. We are not running out of natural resources, we are not running out of space. We are not running out of food, we are not running out of anything but time. It is the one thing we can not renew, or find an alternative source for. The original plan for this country worked almost flawlessly, when there were men with morals and ethics in charge.
I see one of the first changes we need to make is the media. It goes in hand with what asch said earlier. Censorship. A certain loss of a constitutional right to try and get a handle on how the people of this country are informed. The media is unchecked and has unbelievable influence. Something as powerful needs to be controlled. Then we might just see some changes in the way people vote, or the positions they take, and the groups they support.
What's been un-done since Roosevelt was President won't be corrected in one, two, or three generations. IMO, it started with the recognition by the communists that there were sympathetic ears to thier agenda with the Viet Nam era school kids. I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but it's pretty obvious to me that there'sa been a steady and continuous effort by mostly communist backed groups to "socialize" our country, mainly by infiltrating our school systems and creating and supporting basically anti-american groups. A small example is that behind most anti-war groups and/or demonstrations, you can, today, find communist based funding and support. The public school system has become nothing more than a liberal indoctrination system over the last 45 years. The comunists recognised a long time ago that this was the most effective way to promote their agenda, and it's been very successful. The kids that have come out of that system are now a majority of our judges, senators and congressmen/women, and are systematically desolving our constitution. (Have any of you noticed the new Dollar coin...it does not have "In God We Trust" on it) In our school system, the "media" is a liberal art. Look at how left Hollywierd has gone. Look at the bias in our news. It's blatent. Look at how far the left has gone to undo this counry's heritage. Look at how the liberal judges are ignoring the constitution, and look at how easily we, as a society, just accept it. It's what we're learning in school, (colleges are the worst offenders) and what we're seeing on the news, and it's what we hear from our "elite" in Hollywood.
We need to control out media, and we need to get our schools back on track as learning centers, not a place for teachers to promote their own political agendas to a captive and ignorant audience. We will have a more intelligent and better informed population, capable of making better and more informed choices at the voting booth regarding almost everything from political and social awareness to the environment. This includes things like illegal immigration, global warming, and becoming oil independant.
What's happening outside our country is unimportant as compared to what's taking place inside, and if something isn't done soon, I'm afraid it will be irreversable.
Just my 02

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Mike, the revolution has begun. However it is not the American citizens doing the revolting. It is the outsiders comming here and revolting against the American way. Even legal immigrants are not assimulating into the American way of life, speaking english, or accepting American customs as their own. This IS a revolution. There have been several quotes from Mexican rebels about them re taking the southwest, and frankly, there is nothing to stop them.........We better wake the hell up, and quick.............MP
A revolt by American citizens may be needed to preserve the American way of life, don't you think? Our immigration policy must be ammended and we must create a new water source, for millions of people in Southwest. Immediate and constent protection of US soil, and energy developement are also key. The American people, through whatever means, need to get involved and make these things happen.
John M

[ULTRA26 # 1]

We are not running out of oil or water. The "cimate" isn't changing enough to make any difference. We are not running out of natural resources, we are not running out of space. We are not running out of food, we are not running out of anything but time. It is the one thing we can not renew, or find an alternative source for. The original plan for this country worked almost flawlessly, when there were men with morals and ethics in charge.
I see one of the first changes we need to make is the media. It goes in hand with what asch said earlier. Censorship. A certain loss of a constitutional right to try and get a handle on how the people of this country are informed. The media is unchecked and has unbelievable influence. Something as powerful needs to be controlled. Then we might just see some changes in the way people vote, or the positions they take, and the groups they support.
What's been un-done since Roosevelt was President won't be corrected in one, two, or three generations. IMO, it started with the recognition by the communists that there were sympathetic ears to thier agenda with the Viet Nam era school kids. I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but it's pretty obvious to me that there'sa been a steady and continuous effort by mostly communist backed groups to "socialize" our country, mainly by infiltrating our school systems and creating and supporting basically anti-american groups. A small example is that behind most anti-war groups and/or demonstrations, you can, today, find communist based funding and support. The public school system has become nothing more than a liberal indoctrination system over the last 45 years. The comunists recognised a long time ago that this was the most effective way to promote their agenda, and it's been very successful. The kids that have come out of that system are now a majority of our judges, senators and congressmen/women, and are systematically desolving our constitution. (Have any of you noticed the new Dollar coin...it does not have "In God We Trust" on it) In our school system, the "media" is a liberal art. Look at how left Hollywierd has gone. Look at the bias in our news. It's blatent. Look at how far the left has gone to undo this counry's heritage. Look at how the liberal judges are ignoring the constitution, and look at how easily we, as a society, just accept it. It's what we're learning in school, (colleges are the worst offenders) and what we're seeing on the news, and it's what we hear from our "elite" in Hollywood.
We need to control out media, and we need to get our schools back on track as learning centers, not a place for teachers to promote their own political agendas to a captive and ignorant audience. We will have a more intelligent and better informed population, capable of making better and more informed choices at the voting booth regarding almost everything from political and social awareness to the environment. This includes things like illegal immigration, global warming, and becoming oil independant.
What's happening outside our country is unimportant as compared to what's taking place inside, and if something isn't done soon, I'm afraid it will be irreversable.
Just my 02
Steel.
I read your first sentance and that was enough. Don't you think before you write?
You got burned cuase it wasn't worth .02
the old guy

[steelcomp]

Steel.
I read your first sentance and that was enough. Don't you think before you write?
the old guyWhy don't you just put up some objective information showing where I'm wrong instead of continuing to be a useless waste of space here on this forum? You're a fockin lemming, and obviously don't have an original thought of your own. Don't buy into the news hype that you hear every night sitting in front of your 42" big screen that you probably brag to your neighbors about...get off your lazy ass and do some research, and then show me where we're running out of anything. Untill then, just STFU, ass hole. Besides, it's second in importance to what I stated above. It's political BS, and a true distraction to what's really gong on right under our noses. IMO, you're not going to change a thing in this country untill you start changing the education of our children, and cleaning up our school system.

[steelcomp]

A revolt by American citizens may be needed to preserve the American way of life, don't you think? Our immigration policy must be ammended and we must create a new water source, for millions of people in Southwest. Immediate and constent protection of US soil, and energy developement are also key. The American people, through whatever means, need to get involved and make these things happen.
John MA revolt? In what form? How would this "revolt" take place? What would it say? Who would lead it, and how would it be organized? How would you promote it, and what would the goal be?
There have been people screaming about renewed energy sources and becoming oil-independant for decades. That's nothing new...what do you propose to change?
Our immigration policy must be ammended? Well DUH!
How do you propose to create a new water source? Where is the water going? Seems to me, water isn't consumed, it's just constantly re-cycled, and creating more water isn't the answer...you can't. Just like you can't create more dirt. What's here is here. Controlling the usage is the answer, by whatever means. If the price of water was the same as gas, I guarantee it would be used with a copmpletely different attitude. I'm not saying that's the answer, just an illustration that we use more than we need to. We're using it faster than it can re-assymilate because we're putting too many people in one place, but we're not "running out". Besides, if we're truely in a warming trend, we should have more water at our disposal.
We're not even close to running out of oil, and if you think about it, natural resources aren't "natural", they're man made. Nothing's a "resource" untill man puts a fence around it.
This country's like an old fruit tree that's been neglected, and left to grow on it's own, no longer recieving it's needed care. It once was beautiful, and followed a regular plan of trimming and pruning since it's birth (like our constitution) But now, it's branches are old and twisted, and it's not bearing very good fruit any more, and no longer recieces that care, and the "plan" has long been forgotten. You can't just chop it off at the trunk and start over...but you don't need to, either. You just need get back to the plan...and to start, you prune back the old bad branches...cut them off and get rid of them, but you have to do this carefully, because within those branches, and depending on how you prune them, are the new, young buds that will grow and change that old useless tree into a new, beautiful, healthy fruit bearing tree again.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

A revolt? In what form? How would this "revolt" take place? What would it say? Who would lead it, and how would it be organized? How would you promote it, and what would the goal be?
There have been people screaming about renewed energy sources and becoming oil-independant for decades. That's nothing new...what do you propose to change?
Our immigration policy must be ammended? Well DUH!
How do you propose to create a new water source? Where is the water going? Seems to me, water isn't consumed, it's just constantly re-cycled, and creating more water isn't the answer...you can't. Just like you can't create more dirt. What's here is here. Controlling the usage is the answer, by whatever means. If the price of water was the same as gas, I guarantee it would be used with a copmpletely different attitude. I'm not saying that's the answer, just an illustration that we use more than we need to. We're using it faster than it can re-assymilate because we're putting too many people in one place, but we're not "running out". Besides, if we're truely in a warming trend, we should have more water at our disposal.
We're not even close to running out of oil, and if you think about it, natural resources aren't "natural", they're man made. Nothing's a "resource" untill man puts a fence around it.
This country's like an old fruit tree that's been neglected, and left to grow on it's own, no longer recieving it's needed care. It once was beautiful, and followed a regular plan of trimming and pruning since it's birth (like our constitution) But now, it's branches are old and twisted, and it's not bearing very good fruit any more, and no longer recieces that care, and the "plan" has long been forgotten. You can't just chop it off at the trunk and start over...but you don't need to, either. You just need get back to the plan...and to start, you prune back the old bad branches...cut them off and get rid of them, but you have to do this carefully, because within those branches, and depending on how you prune them, are the new, young buds that will grow and change that old useless tree into a new, beautiful, healthy fruit bearing tree again.
Everyone who can should make more money from oil, don't you think? Well thought out policy
Who said my thoughts were new? DUH!
Have you no idea of the levels of Lakes Powell and Mead?
Your fruit tree story sounds gay

[eliminatedsprinter]

I may be wrong but I don't remember any states splitting their electoral votes 2 ways in past recent elections even though they might be allowed to.
Not lately, but Main and Nebraska have systems where a couple of their votes go to the winner and the rest go by who wins in the separate congressional districts.
One important concept that few voters still understand is that of the U.S. being a Federal Republic. The electoral college is intended to dilute the urban centers vote and make presidential candidates appeal to a broader, ie less urban, demographic as well. It is also intended as a way of having the Executive leader chosen by a combination of the popular vote (National) and the states (Federal) methods. Remember that our nations founders did not want our country to be dominateded by a supreme national government. The electoral college is one of the last traces left of our decentralized Federal system of government.
Read James Madison's explanation in Federalist No. 39 for a more detailed explanation. It's kind of long, but Madison was a genious and he spells it out pretty well.

[Rexone]

It would be a shame if needless name calling deteriorated to a point where an interesting thread got locked. ;)

[Poster X]

Not lately, but Main and Nebraska have systems where a couple of their votes go to the winner and the rest go by who wins in the separate congressional districts.
One important concept that few voters still understand is that of the U.S. being a Federal Republic. The electoral college is intended to dilute the urban centers vote and make presidential candidates appeal to a broader, ie less urban, demographic as well. It is also intended as a way of having the Executive leader chosen by a combination of the popular vote (National) and the states (Federal) methods. Remember that our nations founders did not want our country to be dominateded by a supreme national government. The electoral college is one of the last traces left of our decentralized Federal system of government.
Read James Madison's explanation in Federalist No. 39 for a more detailed explanation. It's kind of long, but Madison was a genious and he spells it out pretty well.
No matter how pure or well intended the electoral college was.. it doesn't change the fact that it created the opposite effect intended. I see this as a fallacy in the Republican conscience. You never let go of something for fear of the unknown. No matter how negative it's impact. The spirit of the electoral college failed. It's time to move on.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

It would be a shame if needless name calling deteriorated to a point where an interesting thread got locked. ;)
Rex,
I agree and will move on. Sorry if I've offended anyone.
John M

[Old Texan]

We are not running out of oil or water. The "cimate" isn't changing enough to make any difference. We are not running out of natural resources, we are not running out of space. We are not running out of food, we are not running out of anything but time. It is the one thing we can not renew, or find an alternative source for. The original plan for this country worked almost flawlessly, when there were men with morals and ethics in charge.
I see one of the first changes we need to make is the media. It goes in hand with what asch said earlier. Censorship. A certain loss of a constitutional right to try and get a handle on how the people of this country are informed. The media is unchecked and has unbelievable influence. Something as powerful needs to be controlled. Then we might just see some changes in the way people vote, or the positions they take, and the groups they support.
What's been un-done since Roosevelt was President won't be corrected in one, two, or three generations. IMO, it started with the recognition by the communists that there were sympathetic ears to thier agenda with the Viet Nam era school kids. I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but it's pretty obvious to me that there'sa been a steady and continuous effort by mostly communist backed groups to "socialize" our country, mainly by infiltrating our school systems and creating and supporting basically anti-american groups. A small example is that behind most anti-war groups and/or demonstrations, you can, today, find communist based funding and support. The public school system has become nothing more than a liberal indoctrination system over the last 45 years. The comunists recognised a long time ago that this was the most effective way to promote their agenda, and it's been very successful. The kids that have come out of that system are now a majority of our judges, senators and congressmen/women, and are systematically desolving our constitution. (Have any of you noticed the new Dollar coin...it does not have "In God We Trust" on it) In our school system, the "media" is a liberal art. Look at how left Hollywierd has gone. Look at the bias in our news. It's blatent. Look at how far the left has gone to undo this counry's heritage. Look at how the liberal judges are ignoring the constitution, and look at how easily we, as a society, just accept it. It's what we're learning in school, (colleges are the worst offenders) and what we're seeing on the news, and it's what we hear from our "elite" in Hollywood.
We need to control out media, and we need to get our schools back on track as learning centers, not a place for teachers to promote their own political agendas to a captive and ignorant audience. We will have a more intelligent and better informed population, capable of making better and more informed choices at the voting booth regarding almost everything from political and social awareness to the environment. This includes things like illegal immigration, global warming, and becoming oil independant.
What's happening outside our country is unimportant as compared to what's taking place inside, and if something isn't done soon, I'm afraid it will be irreversable.
Just my 02
This is quite well said. There is and has been a socialist movement in this country for many years and it's very visible in our schools, media, and the growing number of "environmental groups. Not to mention the lemmings following labor unions. It has been said that the "communist" influence in this country has been concentrated into these "environmental" groups and I for one believe it.
Hillary and Pelosi are just the recent addition to alot of Viet Nam era "subversives" that have through educational channels and working into the system, gained tremendous power and influence. Those that don't believe this inference please explain their agendas other than getting into power and instilling liberal socialist policies. The counter insurgents of the 60's and 70's are alive and well, plus they are gaining powerful influence in the government and the business sector.
Here's a prime example of what I'm talking about. Coal generated power plants are very technically advanced and the pollution levels from thier emmissions is getting very controlled and within acceptable levels. However the media and the "greenies" will have you believe the exact opposite to be true. They feed bogus infromation to an uneducated public that coal plants are dirty nasty polluting monsters and must be done away with in favor of windmills and gerbils running on tread mills or something. This month a very liberal Democrat judge in TX rescinded the Republican Governor's proposal to fast track permits on about 8 new coal power plants in TX. The energy company TXU, owner and operator of the majority of power plants in the state warned of a lack of future electricity if these plants weren't built. TXU has done a fine job with power generation and their high stock earnings justify that, good business sense and environmental prudence through use of modern facilities. So guess what, the infamous Kohlberg, Kravis Roberts and Co of RJR Nabisco takeover fame, have put a $44 billion offer on the table to buy out TXU. Part of this buyout includes scrapping plans for the 8 coal powered plants and restricting the company from any advancement of coal technology. Libs and environmentalists are overjoyed, the intelligencia of the general public are outraged, and adequate electrical power supplies in TX are going to be a major issue in coming years.
The movement Steelcomp talks about is real and it's strong and it could be the undoing of America.
Just my .02

[Rexone]

Rex,
I agree and will move on. Sorry if I've offended anyone.
John M
No need to move on John. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and view. In turn, no need for "anyone" to start getting nasty towards each other in these discussions. It's one reason the Political forum declined to a very low point without any moderation. I don't intend to let it go there again under my watch. I was not singling anyone out in my post, just a friendly hint for everyone to stick to the discussion.

[Rexone]

This is quite well said. There is and has been a socialist movement in this country for many years and it's very visible in our schools, media, and the growing number of "environmental groups. Not to mention the lemmings following labor unions. It has been said that the "communist" influence in this country has been concentrated into these "environmental" groups and I for one believe it.
Hillary and Pelosi are just the recent addition to alot of Viet Nam era "subversives" that have through educational channels and working into the system, gained tremendous power and influence. Those that don't believe this inference please explain their agendas other than getting into power and instilling liberal socialist policies. The counter insurgents of the 60's and 70's are alive and well, plus they are gaining powerful influence in the government and the business sector.
Here's a prime example of what I'm talking about. Coal generated power plants are very technically advanced and the pollution levels from thier emmissions is getting very controlled and within acceptable levels. However the media and the "greenies" will have you believe the exact opposite to be true. They feed bogus infromation to an uneducated public that coal plants are dirty nasty polluting monsters and must be done away with in favor of windmills and gerbils running on tread mills or something. This month a very liberal Democrat judge in TX rescinded the Republican Governor's proposal to fast track permits on about 8 new coal power plants in TX. The energy company TXU, owner and operator of the majority of power plants in the state warned of a lack of future electricity if these plants weren't built. TXU has done a fine job with power generation and their high stock earnings justify that, good business sense and environmental prudence through use of modern facilities. So guess what, the infamous Kohlberg, Kravis Roberts and Co of RJR Nabisco takeover fame, have put a $44 billion offer on the table to buy out TXU. Part of this buyout includes scrapping plans for the 8 coal powered plants and restricting the company from any advancement of coal technology. Libs and environmentalists are overjoyed, the intelligencia of the general public are outraged, and adequate electrical power supplies in TX are going to be a major issue in coming years.
The movement Steelcomp talks about is real and it's strong and it could be the undoing of America.
Just my .02
I go along with that and Steel's points as well. The country is in trouble. Problem is the change is occurring over decades of steady erosion (much from the education system as stated) so most won't notice the change.
Not to change the subject but last night I hear on the news our military is spread too thin to respond to another intl crisis. Well duh!
My guess is it's spread too thin to respond to a crisis here too should we be attacked by terrorists in mass at home. After all you can't fight someone with nuclear submarines in your homeland now can you? Perhaps egging the US on internationally to thin the military herd so to speak is part of the plan. After all these people are not stupid. Just a thought.
Did I ever mention how I dislike open borders and how foolish our leaders are being by letting the situation exist in light of our known enemy's stated intentions? Perhaps our government should get it's priorities straight pretty soon. :(

[rrrr]

Did I ever mention how I dislike open borders and how foolish our leaders are being by letting the situation exist in light of our known enemy's stated intentions? Perhaps our government should get it's priorities straight pretty soon. :(
The United States doesn't have an immigration policy. That's the freekin' problem.....:mad:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

We are not running out of oil or water. The "cimate" isn't changing enough to make any difference. We are not running out of natural resources, we are not running out of space. We are not running out of food, we are not running out of anything but time. It is the one thing we can not renew, or find an alternative source for. The original plan for this country worked almost flawlessly, when there were men with morals and ethics in charge.
I see one of the first changes we need to make is the media. It goes in hand with what asch said earlier. Censorship. A certain loss of a constitutional right to try and get a handle on how the people of this country are informed. The media is unchecked and has unbelievable influence. Something as powerful needs to be controlled. Then we might just see some changes in the way people vote, or the positions they take, and the groups they support.
What's been un-done since Roosevelt was President won't be corrected in one, two, or three generations. IMO, it started with the recognition by the communists that there were sympathetic ears to thier agenda with the Viet Nam era school kids. I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but it's pretty obvious to me that there'sa been a steady and continuous effort by mostly communist backed groups to "socialize" our country, mainly by infiltrating our school systems and creating and supporting basically anti-american groups. A small example is that behind most anti-war groups and/or demonstrations, you can, today, find communist based funding and support. The public school system has become nothing more than a liberal indoctrination system over the last 45 years. The comunists recognised a long time ago that this was the most effective way to promote their agenda, and it's been very successful. The kids that have come out of that system are now a majority of our judges, senators and congressmen/women, and are systematically desolving our constitution. (Have any of you noticed the new Dollar coin...it does not have "In God We Trust" on it) In our school system, the "media" is a liberal art. Look at how left Hollywierd has gone. Look at the bias in our news. It's blatent. Look at how far the left has gone to undo this counry's heritage. Look at how the liberal judges are ignoring the constitution, and look at how easily we, as a society, just accept it. It's what we're learning in school, (colleges are the worst offenders) and what we're seeing on the news, and it's what we hear from our "elite" in Hollywood.
We need to control out media, and we need to get our schools back on track as learning centers, not a place for teachers to promote their own political agendas to a captive and ignorant audience. We will have a more intelligent and better informed population, capable of making better and more informed choices at the voting booth regarding almost everything from political and social awareness to the environment. This includes things like illegal immigration, global warming, and becoming oil independant.
What's happening outside our country is unimportant as compared to what's taking place inside, and if something isn't done soon, I'm afraid it will be irreversable.
Just my 02
Steel,
I owe you an aoplogy. I read beyond the first few sentances and found that you made some good points. However, the Southwest is running out of water, believe it or not. If water, was as you've said, our reserve holding areas like Lakes Powell and Mead would not be a dangerously low levels. CA needs to get moving on desal plants. With regard to energy, giant solar panels in the AZ desert would be a wise move and a start.

[Moneypitt]

Ever heard the phrase "A Nation divided is a sitting duck?"....We here are a prime example of how this nation is divided. I beg for solutions from anyone that has a real solution, as our policy makers can't seem to come up with ANY, other than more divisions within...........We are in trouble as a nation, and need to get focused and united or we'll be learning the words "Northern Baja" in spanish................We're all on the same side here, just need to start leaning the same way, at the same time...........The local paper here prints the names and addresses of our "elected" on Saturdays, I for one am going to copy those addresses and start being proactive in voicing an opinion to them about how this country is going down the tubes and what we need to do to stop it...........MP

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Ever heard the phrase "A Nation divided is a sitting duck?"....We here are a prime example of how this nation is divided. I beg for solutions from anyone that has a real solution, as our policy makers can't seem to come up with ANY, other than more divisions within...........We are in trouble as a nation, and need to get focused and united or we'll be learning the words "Northern Baja" in spanish................We're all on the same side here, just need to start leaning the same way, at the same time...........The local paper here prints the names and addresses of our "elected" on Saturdays, I for one am going to copy those addresses and start being proactive in voicing an opinion to them about how this country is going down the tubes and what we need to do to stop it...........MP
MP,
I've decided to do the same thing. Pro-Activity is our only way of being heard. I also believe that we are all on same side and that combined focus is needed to overcome and undo.
John M

[Rexone]

John I don't believe the southwest is running out of water. Water supply historically ebbs and flows through drought and excess. It's a normal condition.
What is changing is the growing population's demand on that finite amount of water (again refer to charts in the video). The fact that our government allows a million or more illegals to enter each year and use these resources should not be lost on this water / power issue. It's just an example of the failing infrastructure I mentioned above. The illegal immigrants are outpacing our ability as a nation to provide services to all. We've added roughly 12-20 million illegals in the past decade depending on who's numbers you use, in the southwest. That's a lot of water usage right there when you figure water for living and the food they eat.
How bout Mexico kick up a few billion for some new water sources or power supply... yeah right. :) The reality is US citizens will pay for any additions to infrastructure and / or suffer the shortages. And the brain surgeons in Washington just let it continue.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

John I don't believe the southwest is running out of water. Water supply historically ebbs and flows through drought and excess. It's a normal condition.
What is changing is the growing population's demand on that finite amount of water (again refer to charts in the video). The fact that our government allows a million or more illegals to enter each year and use these resources should not be lost on this water / power issue. It's just an example of the failing infrastructure I mentioned above. The illegal immigrants are outpacing our ability as a nation to provide services to all. We've added roughly 12-20 million illegals in the past decade depending on who's numbers you use, in the southwest. That's a lot of water usage right there when you figure water for living and the food they eat.
How bout Mexico kick up a few billion for some new water sources or power supply... yeah right. :) The reality is US citizens will pay for any additions to infrastructure and / or suffer the shortages. And the brain surgeons in Washington just let it continue.
Maybe I should have stated that the CO River water supply is not keeping up with the current demand. Over populating the desert has caused more demand than there is available supply, resulting in a diminshing water reserves. Label it as the fault immigration or anything you choose. The end result not enough water. This isn't an issue that was just brought to the table. It has been known for years that it was just a matter of time for demand exceeded supply, in the Southwest. I don't see removing the excess population as a viable fix, thus the basis for my suggestion that CA get moving on desal facilities, immediately. Granted this doesn't come without cost and yes, the US will no doubt bear this expense. Isn't it time that Washington start focusing on the needs of those that support Washington? It's simple for these a**holes. Toss a few earmarks at us. I wouldn't take much more than that. I am fed up with Washington as I hope most people are. "By the people and for the people". It should be very basic.
Sorry for the rant
John M

[Old Texan]

Heard a deal on the radio this morning about Mexican families left behind not being able to eat and pay the bills 'cause the hardworking Mexican men aren't sending all theat money home as reported. There's a protest site somewhere with the wives calling on Mexican Government to shut down the borders and force their menfolk to stay home and take care of their families.
Of course if this was to happen all those millions the illegal amigos spend on Bud and Miller Lite will F up our 2 major breweries.:eek:
Give 'em all a couple cases of Milwaukee's best, an old beater rental car, and send 'em packin' back to mama and the kids.:devil:

[eliminatedsprinter]

No matter how pure or well intended the electoral college was.. it doesn't change the fact that it created the opposite effect intended. I see this as a fallacy in the Republican conscience. You never let go of something for fear of the unknown. No matter how negative it's impact. The spirit of the electoral college failed. It's time to move on.
Oh boy, do I beg to differ.:)
For starters there are lots of things I would love to let go of, starting with our idiotic income tax and the criminalization of pot, but those are topics for other threads.:)
Secondly, I understand why those of you on the left so dislike the electoral college. Urban voters in our nations major population centers make up the political left's major base of support. Any system that was created to dilute the impact of the major population centers, on the selection of our nations Executive leader, would quite naturally, be seen by the left, as one that "disenfranchises" urban voters. But like it or not, that is what our nations founders intended for it to do. They knew their history and they knew how Rome failed at managing it's diverse empire and they also saw first hand how London was failing at properly managing Englands vast empire. They did not want to make that same mistake and let Americia's urban centers run our country. The very fact that the left (who's main base of support is urban voters) so dislikes the Electoral College, is evidence that it is, at least in some degree, doing what it was created to do. It is valid and accurate to say you disagree with our nation's founders on this point, however it is not at all accurate to say that it has "created the opposite effect". The Electoral College was not created to motivate voters or prevent voter apathy. It was actually created to put rural voters on a more even footing with the urban centers and (in the language of the left) partially "disenfranchise" urban voters. I, for one, agree with our nation's founders, that this is a good thing.

[steelcomp]

Dosen't So. Cal get most of it's water from the Owens? Maybe I should have stated that the CO River water supply is not keeping up with the current demand. Over populating the desert has caused more demand than there is available supply, resulting in a diminshing water reserves. Label it as the fault immigration or anything you choose. The end result not enough water. This isn't an issue that was just brought to the table. It has been known for years that it was just a matter of time for demand exceeded supply, in the Southwest. I don't see removing the excess population as a viable fix, thus the basis for my suggestion that CA get moving on desal facilities, immediately. Granted this doesn't come without cost and yes, the US will no doubt bear this expense. Isn't it time that Washington start focusing on the needs of those that support Washington? It's simple for these a**holes. Toss a few earmarks at us. I wouldn't take much more than that. I am fed up with Washington as I hope most people are. "By the people and for the people". It should be very basic.
Sorry for the rant
John M

[Poster X]

It's a fact that lower income citizens are less likely to vote. So you're wrong.
It's also a fact that if you remove the electoral college it opens the door for fairness, meaning, the will of the people is supreme. Just like our forefathers intended. That also is a fact.
It's also a fact that you fear more people will disagree with your policies than agree. By suppoting the electoral college you are saying the have's should do the thinking for everybody. <-- another fact.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Dosen't So. Cal get most of it's water from the Owens?
It matters not! There are too many people in the Southwest and the Southwest has little water supply of it's own. You figure it out. You argue just to agrue. A complete waste of time and energy.

[steelcomp]

It matters not! There are too many people in the Southwest and the Southwest has little water supply of it's own. You figure it out. You argue just to agrue. A complete waste of time and energy.Wow...all that from a simple question. LOL...you really are a self reghteous pig. :)
(sorry HB...it's like pickin on a lib...sometimes I just can't help myself :cry:)

[CA Stu]

It's also a fact that if you remove the electoral college it opens the door for fairness, meaning, the will of the people is supreme. Just like our forefathers intended. That also is a fact.
It's also a fact that you fear more people will disagree with your policies than agree. By suppoting the electoral college you are saying the have's should do the thinking for everybody. <-- another fact.
Sorry, the above is incorrect. The electoral college is there to prevent the masses from exploiting the under-represented.
Without the electoral college, the big cities on either coast would have final say on every national referendum, with the rest of the nation toatlly unrepresented. Kind of the reverse of what you are implying. The huddled masses of the big cities would dictate to the rest of the nation. And I believe that in the city, there are plenty of poor people that vote, and there is ample evidence of the poor selling their votes for a pack of cigarettes. Google it.
I reckon the abolition of the electoral college would open the door for trampling on individual's rights.
Majority rule only works if you’re also considering individual rights, because you can’t have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS Oil is a finite resource. Sensible, personally responsible conservation is a good thing.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Wow...all that from a simple question. LOL...you really are a self reghteous pig. :)
(sorry HB...it's like pickin on a lib...sometimes I just can't help myself :cry:)
"'reghteous" A new word? Can't you get anything right?

[steelcomp]

"'reghteous" A new word? Can't you get anything right?
Wow, you should be proud...you got me on a typo. You should run to one of your mirrors and pat yourself on the back for that one!! Probably gives you a lil' stiffy.
Dude, I haven't been wrong about you, yet.
I rest my case. :notam:
OK...your last word again. C'mon, make it a good one.

[rrrr]

It's also a fact that if you remove the electoral college it opens the door for fairness, meaning, the will of the people is supreme. Just like our forefathers intended. That also is a fact.
It's also a fact that you fear more people will disagree with your policies than agree. By suppoting the electoral college you are saying the have's should do the thinking for everybody. <-- another fact.
I'm glad I don't hang out here much....your ignorance is unbelieveable.
The electoral college was established for the exact opposite you claim.....http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, all of those "haves" out in flyover country really do the thinking for everyone....The rich all live in Nebraska. Or maybe you mean "haves" as in "have the brains to live life without some eletist liberal telling them what to do".....http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Poster X]

I'm glad I don't hang out here much....your ignorance is unbelieveable.
The electoral college was established for the exact opposite you claim.....http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, all of those "haves" out in flyover country really do the thinking for everyone....The rich all live in Nebraska. Or maybe you mean "haves" as in "have the brains to live life without some eletist liberal telling them what to do".....http://www.***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif
What it was "intended" to do and what it's doing are entirely different things. I'll not stoop to name calling but large cities should have more voters than a rurla district. However, everyone has an equal and valuable vote when they all count. ;)

[Poster X]

I typo'ed rural so y'all jump on that. :jawdrop:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Wow, you should be proud...you got me on a typo. You should run to one of your mirrors and pat yourself on the back for that one!! Probably gives you a lil' stiffy.
Dude, I haven't been wrong about you, yet.
I rest my case. :notam:
OK...your last word again. C'mon, make it a good one.
You have no idea who or what I am, and you are as transparant as glass. Not difficult to see the angry, radical young man that you are. Nonetheless, I have to give you credit. You have a very vivid imagination and that's to be admired. However, unarmed, as I stated previously. You have a nice night Steel.

[steelcomp]

You have no idea who or what I am, and you are as transparant as glass. Not difficult to see the angry, radical young man that you are. Nonetheless, I have to give you credit. You have a very vivid imagination and that's to be admired. However, unarmed, as I stated previously. You have a nice night Steel.Aw, c'mon, you pissy old cry baby.
OK...I'm gonna give you one more chance. You've been trying to one-up me for days, now, with your clever little insults and innuendo, but that was really weak. Now give it all ya got...I know, it's tough, but I know you've got it in ya. Make it count.
Make my night. :D
Last word...one more time.

[Rexone]

Cmon you guys. Get on the issues all you want but get off each other. You can beat each other up all you want in bench racers. If you're only beating on each other you're not contributing anything useful to the PR forum. Is it really that tough to just agree to disagree?

[eliminatedsprinter]

It's a fact that lower income citizens are less likely to vote. So you're wrong.
It's also a fact that if you remove the electoral college it opens the door for fairness, meaning, the will of the people is supreme. Just like our forefathers intended. That also is a fact.
It's also a fact that you fear more people will disagree with your policies than agree. By suppoting the electoral college you are saying the have's should do the thinking for everybody. <-- another fact.
I never mentioned lower income citizens voting habbits and I personally could care less if people who care and know so little about government and politics, that they don't even vote, are (in your eyes) under represented. When I was poor I voted.
You ought to try reading the federalist papers someday (at least try Federalist No 39). Then you might get a bit of a clue what I am saying, when I support the Electoral College.
I doubt our forefathers had much use for meaningless cliches "like opens the door for fairness" after all, they were busy building the bridge to the ninteenth century.:rolleyes: :rollside: :rollside: :rollside:
All of the things you have said above are nothing more than your opinions and guess what? I feel they are in error. :eek: I also know enough to state my opinions as what they are and I do not attempt to hyper-inflate them by labling them as "facts". And that is a fact.;)

[eliminatedsprinter]

What it was "intended" to do and what it's doing are entirely different things. )
What it is doing is standing in the way of trendy leftists who wish to buy off poor voters with promises of pubilc largess. That's got to really get your shorts in a wad huh....;) ;) :D :D
P.S. That is also part of what it was intended to do.:D Our nations founders were very suspisious of pure democracy for exactly that reason.:)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Aw, c'mon, you pissy old cry baby.
OK...I'm gonna give you one more chance. You've been trying to one-up me for days, now, with your clever little insults and innuendo, but that was really weak. Now give it all ya got...I know, it's tough, but I know you've got it in ya. Make it count.
Make my night. :D
Last word...one more time.
As I said earlier, have a nice night Steel.

[OKIE-JET]

What it is doing is standing in the way of trendy leftists who wish to buy off poor voters with promises of pubilc largess. That's got to really get your shorts in a wad huh....;) ;) :D :D
P.S. That is also part of what it was intended to do.:D Our nations founders were very suspisious of pure democracy for exactly that reason.:)
In agreement on electoral college, the forefathers knew that once the centers of population were large enough, it would be easier for those seeking office to influence huge numbers of constituents without worrying what the rural areas would think or how they voted. Example...Houston TX. has more pop. than the state of Ok. Talk about disenfranchised voters. As a side-note, with what I see around this nation, I damn sure dont want Californians or New Yorkers representing me in the polls, just look at the retarded laws and bills those two states have passed. This proves that radicals have greatly influenced these people with ideas that seemingly dont make much sense. They can rally more sheer numbers in just one city on the west coast than in an entire state in the mid-west.

[058]

The libs and Dems. don't like the Electorial College because they got their asses kicked because of it in the last 2 Pres. elections. If their fair-haired little doobie won then the Electorial College is a good thing and should not be changed. They want it both ways, as usual.

[Poster X]

The libs and Dems. don't like the Electorial College because they got their asses kicked because of it in the last 2 Pres. elections. If their fair-haired little doobie won then the Electorial College is a good thing and should not be changed. They want it both ways, as usual.
Sounds like the words of a man that it works to his advantage so it must be good? I'm sure that forked tongue of your's would be wagging a different lip flop if it didn't work for you the last two times? No voter is disenfranchised when his vote counts. He is only disenfranchised when his vote doesn't. I doubt any of you unibrows speak for our forefathers and I won't pretend to. I don't think they foresaw life today and I also think they thought we'd work it out if they did. Population centers are a non issue when a vote counts. The way the America is growing and with your total lack of an immigration policy in a few years everything will be a population center anyway. ;)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

It has always been my understanding that the electoral college was a result of communication issues. It's hard to imagine that our forefathers had any idea of how large our populations would become. Not that this matters anyway. The heavily populated areas have a commensurate number of electoral votes. Bottom line, everyone's vote counts equally in a popular vote system and if everyone's did count, the number of voters would increase. More people getting involved, by voting for what they believe in is what this country needs. True? The electoral college is old shcool, and should be removed from the system.
John M

[Old Texan]

The way the America is growing and with your total lack of an immigration policy in a few years everything will be a population center anyway. ;)
So tell us what the "your" is all about. I suppose the immigation problem started 6 years ago like every other problem in the country and world for that matter. :rolleyes:
What happened to the "we need to get rid of the divisiveness in this country attitude" you professed so many times? Or was that just a "flavor of the day" thing.....:confused:

[Poster X]

Your President brought the problem up and then not only turned his back on it, but moved for legislation to encourage more of it. That my ignorant friend.. is the flavor of the day. ;)

[CA Stu]

The electoral college is old shcool, and should be removed from the system.
John M
Do you not understand what this would do to individual rights?
A large part of the country would have no representation if this was the case. About 7 big cities would decide the Presidential election.
Imagine this: A country of 3 million voters, with one city with over 1.5 million voters.
Everyone in the city votes for one candidate, everyone outside the city votes for the other.
Even though the support for the second person is nationwide, and the first person is only in one giant city, the first guy would win in your scenario, thereby disenfranchising the rest of the nation.
That seems unfair to me, and more importantly, to the founding fathers.
Thanks
CA Stu

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Sounds like the words of a man that it works to his advantage so it must be good? I'm sure that forked tongue of your's would be wagging a different lip flop if it didn't work for you the last two times? No voter is disenfranchised when his vote counts. He is only disenfranchised when his vote doesn't. I doubt any of you unibrows speak for our forefathers and I won't pretend to. I don't think they foresaw life today and I also think they thought we'd work it out if they did. Population centers are a non issue when a vote counts. The way the America is growing and with your total lack of an immigration policy in a few years everything will be a population center anyway. ;)
Poster, I read your post, after submitting mine. I sounded somewhat like an echo.
JM

[CA Stu]

Sounds like the words of a man that it works to his advantage so it must be good? I'm sure that forked tongue of your's would be wagging a different lip flop if it didn't work for you the last two times? No voter is disenfranchised when his vote counts. He is only disenfranchised when his vote doesn't. I doubt any of you unibrows speak for our forefathers and I won't pretend to. I don't think they foresaw life today and I also think they thought we'd work it out if they did. Population centers are a non issue when a vote counts. The way the America is growing and with your total lack of an immigration policy in a few years everything will be a population center anyway. ;)
They speak for themselve through building the framework of our representative democracy, a system of government that has true staying power, and fairnesss above and beyond every other form of government ever tried.
Population centers are a non-issue? You're joking, right?
I think the odds of any place in Nebraska or Oklahoma becoming a population center in the magnitude of NYC or LA or SFO are pretty slim.
Go ahead and fire off an ad hominem attack now.
Thanks
CA Stu

[steelcomp]

More people getting involved, by voting for what they believe, in is what this country needs. True?No. What we need are people who take the time to understanad what they are voting for and the ramifications of their vote, not what makes them "feel good". We need educated voters that don't just sit in front of the television and get brainwashed by a biased, corrupt media. IMO the electoral college does what it was designed to do, and isn't the problem. A popular vote by "lemmings" would be way worse than what we have now.
It seems that in a popular vote system, the rural areas would be left out of the election loop. There would be no campaigning, and little media coverage...what would be the point when the candidates could focus their money and energy on the more populated areas? A candidate could focus his campaign on nothing but the main metropolitan areas and win an election by a landslide. To balance things out, one would have to caompaign in every little rural city and town to get the outer votes, and there's neither time nor money to do that. Then, the people in the little towns and cities just wouldn't bother to vote, knowing it wouldn't matter.
It's an oversimplification, but I believe that's part of what the fore-fathers were trying to prevent.
Like I said before...we can start by sensoring the media. They're due.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Do you not understand what this would do to individual rights?
A large part of the country would have no representation if this was the case. About 7 big cities would decide the Presidential election.
Imagine this: A country of 3 million voters, with one city with over 1.5 million voters.
Everyone in the city votes for one candidate, everyone outside the city votes for the other.
Even though the support for the second person is nationwide, and the first person is only in one giant city, the first guy would win in your scenario, thereby disenfranchising the rest of the nation.
That seems unfair to me, and more importantly, to the founding fathers.
Thanks
CA Stu
Take your own example and apply the electoral system to it. A country with three million voters with one and half million in one city and everyone else outside the city. The big city would have nearly half of the electoral, votes and every one else would have the remainder. The electoral college doesn't operate like the senate, two per state. In my opinion, the guy the big city was in favor of, has a greater chance of winning under the electoral system.
Let's look at it a little differently. A country of three million. Two million, five hundred thousand, live in the city, and five hundred outside the city. Where would the equity be in a system that allowed one sixth of the people more of a voice than the the majority five sixths?
Individual votes = individual rights, the way I see it. I mean no disrespect to our founding fathers.
John M

[CA Stu]

The electoral college ensures that the candidates give some weight to the concerns of people nationwide, rather than just appeassing the voters of the big cities, I reckon.
We need to keep it.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Poster X]

So Toulywads Kansas should have just as much influence as all the voters in New York City?
And you also think every voter in LA, New York, Pittsburgh, Boston and Houston are going to agree on one singular politician?
My recommendation is you double your Librium intake and add Prozac to your diet. Better yet.. grow old and die. Please hurry.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

The electoral college ensures that the candidates give some weight to the concerns of people nationwide, rather than just appeassing the voters of the big cities, I reckon.
We need to keep it.
Thanks
CA Stu
Obviously we don't agree and that's OK. I'm really trying to understand this logic, and I'm not having any luck. Historically, in CA, there are millions of Republican votes for President, that have no affect on the outcome. How can this possibly be good for the country as a whole or viewed as fair? To be elected President, a candidate must only wiin the electoral vote from 13 states. 13 states can't be veiwed as nation wide, can it? Again, we just don't agree on this one.
John M

[eliminatedsprinter]

None of the last examples is really bad, but niether are they accurate. The Electoral College is ment to have aspects of federalisim (states determine independently how they give out their electoral votes) and nationalism (they are based on the winners of a vote of their citizens as part of a national election). It is all part of the compromise that makes the U.S.A. unique as the worlds fisrt Federal Republic. What opponents of the Electoral College don't understand, is that the President is the one office that is supposed to be selected by the states, based on how the people of the states seperatly choose who they want to support. It is not supposed to be simply X number of U.S. Citizens choose Bush vs Y number of U.S. Citizens choose Gore. But rather the the people of , Ca choose Gore, The people of Texas choose Bush, the people of New York choose Gore, the people of Florida choose Bush etc, etc, etc, this is the part of the EC that is FEDERAL in nature (reflecting the will of the states). The fact that states each have a number of Electoral votes that is based on their population is the part that is NATIONAL in nature (reflecting the winner of state's popular vote). The EC is a compromise between Federalism and Nationalism and it was and still is a brilliant system. It is unfortunatly a bit more complex than a straight national popular vote and for some reason it is something that is poorly taught in grade school and not well understood by most voters. To say that it is somehow outdated or unfair is more than a bit like saying, that we should give up another aspect of our unique federalism and become more like all the typical nationalist republics that have come and gone before and after us.
Please people, before you jump on the trendy bandwagon to dump the Electoral College read The Federalist Papers. They are not light reading, but they are among the most signficant documents ever written. AT LEAST READ FEDERALIST NO 51 AND FEDERALIST NO 39. Both are written by James Madison and both are brilliant.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Obviously we don't agree and that's OK. I'm really trying to understand this logic, and I'm not having any luck. Historically, in CA, there are millions of Republican votes for President, that have no affect on the outcome. How can this possibly be good for the country as a whole or viewed as fair?
John M
Because we the people of CA have the ability to change this if we get the will to ask our states elected legislators to do so. You (like most people nowdays) are looking at the U.S.A. as a National Republic (or Nationalist country), rathar than as a Federal Republic.

[Old Texan]

Your President brought the problem up and then not only turned his back on it, but moved for legislation to encourage more of it. That my ignorant friend.. is the flavor of the day. ;)
Ah more ramblings from the kingpin of useless opinion. Illegals have been coming here long before Bush and if he passed legislation tell us ignorant citizens what you're babbling about.
I feel Bush has fallen far short of stopping the problem but he didn't create it as you infer. Laws are on the books to stop the illegals, our federal government for some reason just won't allow them to be enforced and for that I do blame Bush. He has followed in the footsteps of your former president who blessed us with so many wonderful policies, you know the wife of your socialist hero Hillary.:devil:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Because we the people of CA have the ability to change this if we get the will to ask our states elected legislators to do so. You (like most people nowdays) are looking at the U.S.A. as a National Republic (or Nationalist country), rathar than as a Federal Republic.
I understand the electoral college completely. I don't understand the persons, (that I was responding to), logic. To change what?
John M

[ULTRA26 # 1]

No. What we need are people who take the time to understanad what they are voting for and the ramifications of their vote, not what makes them "feel good". We need educated voters that don't just sit in front of the television and get brainwashed by a biased, corrupt media. IMO the electoral college does what it was designed to do, and isn't the problem. A popular vote by "lemmings" would be way worse than what we have now.
It seems that in a popular vote system, the rural areas would be left out of the election loop. There would be no campaigning, and little media coverage...what would be the point when the candidates could focus their money and energy on the more populated areas? A candidate could focus his campaign on nothing but the main metropolitan areas and win an election by a landslide. To balance things out, one would have to caompaign in every little rural city and town to get the outer votes, and there's neither time nor money to do that. Then, the people in the little towns and cities just wouldn't bother to vote, knowing it wouldn't matter.
It's an oversimplification, but I believe that's part of what the fore-fathers were trying to prevent.
Like I said before...we can start by sensoring the media. They're due.
I agree that voters should be educated. I also believe that all political campaigning should be removed from television. Sensorship wouldn't work as it would be controlled by those doing the sensoring. CA has 55 electoral votes and ID has 4. CA has an estimated 15,000,000 republican voters who's votes are meaningless when electing a President, in recent years. As it is now, in CA, the heavily populated, areas, control the electoral vote for the entire state. This holds true for every other state as well. People from Red Bluff or Bakersfield have no political voice, with regard to electing the President. On a similar note, Orange County, which is heavily populated and by Republicans, generally has no voice. The electoral college no longer operates in the manner of it's design. It promotes less educated involvement, which is counter produtive in a system already lagging in educated involvement. Again, I mean no disrespect to our Forefathers. For many reasons, we have simply outgrown this system.
John M

[Poster X]

Ah more ramblings from the kingpin of useless opinion. Illegals have been coming here long before Bush and if he passed legislation tell us ignorant citizens what you're babbling about.
I feel Bush has fallen far short of stopping the problem but he didn't create it as you infer. Laws are on the books to stop the illegals, our federal government for some reason just won't allow them to be enforced and for that I do blame Bush. He has followed in the footsteps of your former president who blessed us with so many wonderful policies, you know the wife of your socialist hero Hillary.:devil:
You really are a dolt. I said he brought the issue to the forefront not that he created it. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

[CA Stu]

I agree that voters should be educated. I also believe that all political campaigning should be removed from television. Sensorship wouldn't work as it would be controlled by those doing the sensoring. CA has 55 electoral votes and ID has 4. CA has an estimated 15,000,000 republican voters who's votes are meaningless when electing a President, in recent years. As it is now, in CA, the heavily populated, areas, control the electoral vote for the entire state. This holds true for every other state as well. People from Red Bluff or Bakersfield have no political voice, with regard to electing the President. On a similar note, Orange County, which is heavily populated and by Republicans, generally has no voice. The electoral college no longer operates in the manner of it's design. It promotes less educated involvement, which is counter produtive in a system already lagging in educated involvement. Again, I mean no disrespect to our Forefathers. For many reasons, we have simply outgrown this system.
John M
I will agree to disagree with you, and FWIW I am one of the disenfranchised.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS "Censoring" "censorship" :D

[CA Stu]

You really are a dolt. I said he brought the issue to the forefront not that he created it. Sheesh. :rolleyes:
This is why people flock to you, PX.
Your fantastic ability to debate an issue purely on its merits, rather than making your argument a personal attack.
Thanks
CA Stu

[Poster X]

Nigga Please, I retaliate once to every 20 name calls by ancient Tex and smokes like a train.

[CA Stu]

My recommendation is you double your Librium intake and add Prozac to your diet. Better yet.. grow old and die. Please hurry.
This is what I was referring to, PX.
Thanks
CA Stu

[eliminatedsprinter]

Nigga Please, I retaliate once to every 20 name calls by ancient Tex and smokes like a train.
Just to get this in quotes.;)

[eliminatedsprinter]

I understand the electoral college completely. To change what?
John M
I figured that you did. My statement was in referrance to the general populations lack of understanding of it.
We can change how we allocate Ca's 55 electoal college votes.
I actually agree with you about all of the wasted minority party votes here in Ca. That is why I favor Ca switching to the Maine/ Nebraska method of voting in the electoral college. If we used their model in the last couple of elections our electoral vote's would have gone approx 33 Dem. and 20 Rep. and those voters would have been represented. Of course, in other past elections, where a Republician has carried Ca then the Dems would have got some of our votes as well. This is something our elected state officials can change any time they want and it is something Ca voters can demand they do, if we can get the popular will. It is up to Ca voters and our elected representitives to change.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I figured that you did. My statement was in referrance to the general populations lack of understanding of it.
We can change how we allocate Ca's 55 electoal college votes.
I actually agree with you about all of the wasted minority party votes here in Ca. That is why I favor Ca switching to the Maine/ Nebraska method of voting in the electoral college. If we used their model in the last couple of elections our electoral vote's would have gone approx 33 Dem. and 20 Rep. and those voters would have been represented. Of course, in other past elections, where a Republician has carried Ca then the Dems would have got some of our votes as well. This is something our elected state officials can change any time they want and it is something Ca voters can demand they do, if we can get the popular will. It is up to Ca voters and our elected representitives to change.
Thanks for clarifying. What you are referring to would be better. I just don't seem to be able to get beyond every vote carrying equal weight. Minority votes are lost everywhere. I haven't been a fan of the electoral college method, since high school. Not trying to argue, it's just what I believe. It's only an absolute for me. Again, thanks for helping me to understand.
John M

[Flyinbowtie]

The factual realities displayed in that video ought to be required reading for every citizen of voting age in this country, and there should be a quiz afterword.
I am an American first, a conservative second, and a Republican for the time being. I think the Electoral College serves all of the purposes discussed here, and has many of the faults discussed as well. California's "All or nothing" system of assigning all electors to the majority party does leave one sensing a degree of a lack of representation, and it needs to change.
What I find most disturbing is discovered when following Rexone's 50 year outlook.
We have a growing number of uneducated self-centered people who vote based completely on what they believe that vote will do for them, without any idea of the impact it will have on the long-term health of the country.
We have a shrinking number of voters in general.
If we could increase the number of educated voters who cast their vote based upon what they believe reflects the best interest of the country by a mere 10%, we could change the course of the nation.
I voted for this president, twice, and I am very disappointed with his response to the illegal immgration crisis. Until we can define our borders, control our borders, and deal with those who choose to ignore them, this nation is in a quagimire we might not get out of. Creating a North American Union as seems to be the current unstated goal of the federal gov't. to compete with the E.U. will drain this nation like a battery with a dead short in it.
We are a a place that the history books might call the turning point where the U.S. began its slide into 2nd or 3rd world status.
As was previously stated, until we step up and elect leaders who have the nation's best interest as their driving force, we're in trouble. Until term limits are in place to make the Ted Kennedys, Robert Byrds, etc., the last of their kind, we are in trouble. We are already in trouble because we don't have the willpower to get off our asses and vote them out when they have overstayed their welcome.
There is a key difference with the illegal aliens in the wave that started in the late 70's and all the waves of immigrants that came into this country in the latter portion of the 1800's and early 1900's.
Those people came here to start a new life, they came here and claimed the country for their own, they honored their traditions while starting new ones. they were proud of their adopted home.
The folks that came through Ellis Island didn't commit a felony as their first act in the U.S.A.
They didn't protest in the streets of our towns demanding we speak their langauge.
They didn't demand free education for their children, free health care, and housing, and then work in an underground economy to avoid taxation.
They took pride in becoming Americans.
This nation needs a major change of direction, a rededication to it's purpose, and a new emphasis on national pride. The Democrats are not my fathers Democrats, and the Republican Party needs a real live conservative at the Helm ASAP.
If Hillary Clinton were to be running against Harry Truman back in his day, she would be called on the carpet as exactly what she is, a full fledged Socialist, in every ugly sense of the word.
The mere fact that she is able to move around in the politics of this nation without being called such speaks volumes about how far we have deteriorated, and how effectve revisionist historians and leftisits in general have been in our public schools over the past 30 years.
And with that, I am out of here...:)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I will agree to disagree with you, and FWIW I am one of the disenfranchised.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS "Censoring" "censorship" :D
Stu,
Thanks for the spelling lesson. I didn't think the way I spelled those words looked right. Makes me feels bad for giving Steel sh** for spelling. I won't do
that again.
John M

[ULTRA26 # 1]

[QUOTE=Flyinbowtie;2419506]The factual realities displayed in that video ought to be required reading for every citizen of voting age in this country, and there should be a quiz afterword.
QUOTE]
I agree.
The video, that began this thread, referred to legal immigration. The problem, of illegals, was not even factored.
John M

[steelcomp]

Nigga Please, I retaliate once to every 20 name calls by ancient Tex and smokes like a train.another class response :notam:

[Old Texan]

You really are a dolt. I said he brought the issue to the forefront not that he created it. Sheesh. :rolleyes:
You once again prove to be the bagboy Henny Yougman of your generation. One liners with no substance to compound previous one line elitist opinions with the bulk of the content left floating around in your empty head waiting to escape.
Obvious to see why Chuck Barris was always giving you the "hook". :devil:
Defend your position or go back to sleep.

[CA Stu]

Two things:
1) The observation about allocating California's electoral votes differently is a great one. I'm behind that 100%. I can't believe that there is not a movement afoot to amend the state constitution to do just that. Google here I come.
2) The demonization of the illegal immigrant is wrong. You are damning people for wanting a better life for themselves. Sure, there are bad guys, but you are painting with too broad a brush. To condemn a whole group of people is wrong and I think that a more progressive, inclusionary immigration process is a better answer.
And I think you may be romanticizing the immigrants of the past somewhat. Did the Sicilian Mafia come over to support America and pay taxes? I don't think so. Did the Irish come over to be Americans? They were too busy trying not to starve to death in their home country to care, I reckon.
And on and on.
The notion that there were people that "just wanted to be Americans" is quaint, but a fantasy.
And yes, I'm an immigrant, and yes, I was technically an illegal immigrant for a while, and yes, I paid all my taxes, registered for selective service, and I contribute to society rather than suck the government tit.
Thanks
CA Stu

[CA Stu]

You once again prove to be the bagboy Henny Yougman of your generation.
This is very unfair to Henny Youngman.
Thanks
CA Stu

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Stu,
I must say to you that while you and I have some disagreement, with regard to the issues, it is a pleasure to communicating with someone with class, style and dignity.
John M

[Flyinbowtie]

Stu;
I understand your perspective and appreciate the experience you are sharing.
My words were "took pride in becoming Americans" not "just wanted to be Americans." there is a small, although meaningful difference.
It was not my intent to paint with a wide brush. Reading history, it is clear that their were criminals in every wave of immigrants that this country has experienced.
I am not damning people for wanting a better life, I commend them for the goal.
I want them to use the legal process to reach the goal, to go through the system to get here legally, and to enter this society as functional taxpaying citizens. If the system in place for immigrants is slow and cumbersome, and I am sure it is, then perhaps energy could be spent improving it. I don't know what you mean by progressive and inclusionary, but I don't support rewarding people who broke the law to get here. I do think we owe it to our children to do a complete background check on everyone who wants in, and we owe it to them to secure the borders so that they have a definable country to inherit.
Frankly, with failing overburdened social services systems and the impending collapse of Social Security, I think the GenX'ers might wind up rethinking the "Give me your Tired and Poor" philosophy that has worked so well over the decades, because when us boomers hand them the bill they ain't gonna be able to pay it. Until the majority of the people in this country want to participate in elections, tax policy, etc., and people believe that this country is facing a crisis of huge proportions, we are gonna be in trouble.
I spent 25 years in local law enforcement in California, so my perspective is based upon my experiences, which were far from a quaint fantasy.
With the dawn of the age of terrorism, we have a new problem in the mix. An unsecured border is an inviting path by which a terrorist organization could reach into this country and attack our population centers. It has already been tried at our northern border, and based upon my training via the Governor's Office of Emergency Services, I feel strongly the path will at some point be used. A secure, controlled border system and secure, fair, legal immigration are simply in the country's best interest.
So, I guess we'll agree to disagree in some areas, which is okay.:D

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Stu;
A secure, controlled border system and secure, fair, legal immigration are simply in the country's best interest..:D
I agree, but I believe that there is an important piece missing from your statement regarding legal immigration. "In seriously reduced numbers"
John M

[Poster X]

The factual realities displayed in that video ought to be required reading for every citizen of voting age in this country, and there should be a quiz afterword.
I am an American first, a conservative second, and a Republican for the time being. I think the Electoral College serves all of the purposes discussed here, and has many of the faults discussed as well. California's "All or nothing" system of assigning all electors to the majority party does leave one sensing a degree of a lack of representation, and it needs to change.
What I find most disturbing is discovered when following Rexone's 50 year outlook.
We have a growing number of uneducated self-centered people who vote based completely on what they believe that vote will do for them, without any idea of the impact it will have on the long-term health of the country.
We have a shrinking number of voters in general.
If we could increase the number of educated voters who cast their vote based upon what they believe reflects the best interest of the country by a mere 10%, we could change the course of the nation.
I voted for this president, twice, and I am very disappointed with his response to the illegal immgration crisis. Until we can define our borders, control our borders, and deal with those who choose to ignore them, this nation is in a quagimire we might not get out of. Creating a North American Union as seems to be the current unstated goal of the federal gov't. to compete with the E.U. will drain this nation like a battery with a dead short in it.
We are a a place that the history books might call the turning point where the U.S. began its slide into 2nd or 3rd world status.
As was previously stated, until we step up and elect leaders who have the nation's best interest as their driving force, we're in trouble. Until term limits are in place to make the Ted Kennedys, Robert Byrds, etc., the last of their kind, we are in trouble. We are already in trouble because we don't have the willpower to get off our asses and vote them out when they have overstayed their welcome.
There is a key difference with the illegal aliens in the wave that started in the late 70's and all the waves of immigrants that came into this country in the latter portion of the 1800's and early 1900's.
Those people came here to start a new life, they came here and claimed the country for their own, they honored their traditions while starting new ones. they were proud of their adopted home.
The folks that came through Ellis Island didn't commit a felony as their first act in the U.S.A.
They didn't protest in the streets of our towns demanding we speak their langauge.
They didn't demand free education for their children, free health care, and housing, and then work in an underground economy to avoid taxation.
They took pride in becoming Americans.
This nation needs a major change of direction, a rededication to it's purpose, and a new emphasis on national pride. The Democrats are not my fathers Democrats, and the Republican Party needs a real live conservative at the Helm ASAP.
If Hillary Clinton were to be running against Harry Truman back in his day, she would be called on the carpet as exactly what she is, a full fledged Socialist, in every ugly sense of the word.
The mere fact that she is able to move around in the politics of this nation without being called such speaks volumes about how far we have deteriorated, and how effectve revisionist historians and leftisits in general have been in our public schools over the past 30 years.
And with that, I am out of here...:)
Superlatives and romanticism aside the electoral college has alienated voters. That's not an opinion. That's what happened. The goal of a Democracy is to encourage the popular vote thereby making the citizenry participants in their government. The electoral college may can be brought back at some date in the future? But for now, eligible voters should be brought back into the fold with which it all began. Popular vote. The majority rules. The very basic and simplistic seed that sparked the growth of modern history's greatest rise to power. The electoral vote, the two-party system, and our leadership all share the same problem.. they are corrupt beyond repair. In life if you screw something up, you go back to basics. In politics, you give more power and pile on more legislation and confusion. The extreme party bias and vitriolic nature of this forum is a perfect example of what America has become.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Superlatives and romanticism aside the electoral college has alienated voters. That's not an opinion. That's what happened. The goal of a Democracy is to encourage the popular vote thereby making the citizenry participants in their government. The electoral college may can be brought back at some date in the future? But for now, eligible voters should be brought back into the fold with which it all began. Popular vote. The majority rules. The very basic and simplistic seed that sparked the growth of modern history's greatest rise to power. The electoral vote, the two-party system, and our leadership all share the same problem.. they are corrupt beyond repair. In life if you screw something up, you go back to basics. In politics, you give more power and pile on more legislation and confusion. The extreme party bias and vitriolic nature of this forum is a perfect example of what America has become.
Yea right.:rolleyes: All those clueless people that don't even vote are the result of the electoral college. Get real. Most non-voters don't even know about the elctoral college, let alone how it relates to their vote.
I agree that's not an opinion. That idea is an absurdity.:rollside: :rollside:

[eliminatedsprinter]

But for now, eligible voters should be brought back into the fold with which it all began. Popular vote. The majority rules. The very basic and simplistic seed that sparked the growth of modern history's greatest rise to power.
What are you talking about here????We never elected the President by popular vote. In the first few elections the state's legislatures chose the electors who elected the president. Todays method is more by popular vote than it was when it all began. We origionally didn't even elect senators by direct popular vote. We do more by popular vote now, in this country, than we ever have.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Yea right.:rolleyes: All those clueless people that don't even vote are the result of the electoral college. Get real. Most non-voters don't even know about the elctoral college, let alone how it relates to their vote.
I agree that's not an opinion. It's an absurdity.:rollside: :rollside:
It seems as if many who post in this area believe that their level of education and knowledge, of the system, is far more vast than the masses. To me, this is an arrogent and twisted view of our fellow Americans. I grew up in the city, and in the city you went to school. While there were a minority who dropped out, the majority at least finished high school. Basic govermnent is tought in elementary and Jr. high schools, and it includes how a President is elected. There is no doubt that most city people are educated. I can't speak for middle America, small towns and rural areas, but would not expect it be much different. Most people do know the system, and it is my understanding that most people would prefer a popular vote system. If this is the will of the majority, should it be denied?
John M

[Poster X]

There are two schools of thought.
There's the Smokin Lowrider right wing "I know what's best for you and if you didn't have the same opportunity's I did it's your fault", school of thought.
And there's what he and Old Tex consider liberal, "let every American decide" school of thought.
Their attitude and arrogance is prevalent on every thread. They will have you believe all the other threads don't count and they should only be judged for this thread.
In short, they and the rest of the brain trust only ask questions and do not answer them. They also bash on you for months and when you do retaliate they pretend their innocence and berate you for being a troll. In fact, that's what they are. Troll's. ;)

[eliminatedsprinter]

It seems as if many who post in this area believe that their level of education and knowledge, of the system, is far more vast than the masses. To me, this is an arrogent and twisted view of our fellow Americans. I grew up in the city, and in the city you went to school. While there were a minority who dropped out, the majority at least finished high school. Basic govermnent is tought in elementary and Jr. high schools, and it includes how a President is elected. There is no doubt that most city people are educated. I can't speak for middle America, small towns and rural areas, but would not expect it be much different. Most people do know the system, and it is my understanding that most people would prefer a popular vote system. If this is the will of the majority, should it be denied?
John M
I spoke specifically in regards to non voters and Poster X's specific point. You think it is arrogent and twisted to referance the fact that non voters tend to be less informed politically the those who take the trouble to vote?????
Poster X stated, as a fact, that the Electoral College has alienated voters. He is implying that the Electoral College is demotivating people from coming to the polls. Hmmm, I wonder why voter turnout is so much higher on avg for national presidential elections (the only ones that use the EC) than it is for all the other elections that use straight popular vote? Oh yea, the EC is pushing voters away in droves, no doubt.:rolleyes:
Look I happen to like the EC. I happen to agree with James Madison and like the idea of a combined Federal/National method of choosing the President. I happen to feel it still, in a small way, serves it's intended purpose. If you think my feeling, on this one issue, allows you to paint me with the above prejoritive brush, so be it. But if you think it makes me arrogent like some leftist, who wants the gov to control all of us great unwashed masses, then you just don't know me very well.....
Besides my support of the EC has nothing to do with the education or views of the avg voter.
My support of the EC comes from my support of diversity in government.
I am sure you are well aware of the old analogy, that democracy can become like 2 wolves and sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Our nations founders were. That is why they created The Bill of rights, our separate branches of government (with a divided legislative branch), with checks and balances, etc... It is also why they created a system where our various types of leaders were selected in a variety of different ways. This was to protect individual liberties and minority points of view. The EC is part of that variety of selection, that is intended to protect individual liberties and minority points of view and I still happen to support it.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I spoke specifically in regards to non voters. You think it is arrogent and twisted to referance the fact that non voters tend to be less informed politically the those who take the trouble to vote?????You think the average non voter is well informed politically? I wonder what percentage of voters vs non voters here in Ca know how many Electoral College Votes Ca has and how that number is determined???
Poster X stated as a fact that the Electoral College has alienated voters. He is implying that the Electoral College is demotivating people from coming to the polls. Hmmm, I wonder why voter turnout is so much higher on avg for national presidential elections (the only ones that use the EC) than it is for all the other elections that use straight popular vote? Oh yea, the EC is pushing voters away in droves, no doubt.:rolleyes:
Look I happen to like the EC. I happen to agree with James Madison and like the idea of a combined Federal/National method of choosing the President. I happen to feel it still in a small way serves it's intended purpose. If you think my feeling, on this one issue, allows you to paint me with the above prejoritive brush, so be it. But if you think it makes me arrogent like some leftist, who wants the gov to control all of us great unwashed masses, then you just don't know me very well.....
My post was not directed at you or you personally. With regard to this issue, I agree with poster. However because I believe in a different method than
others, doesn't make me wrong or right. It is simply how I feel. I believe that our founding Fathers were spot on at the time that the EC was concieved. It served many very real purposes. IMO, higher voter turnout for Presidencial elections has abosolutely nothing to do the EC. The higher turnout results from preceived significance. Knowing that a vote isn't going to count, such
as Republican votes in recent CA elections, IMO caused many Republicans not to vote
Your statement, "I happen to feel it still in a small way serves it's intended purpose" doesn't come across as a sigficant basis to stay this course.
I just believe, for many reasons, that this Country has out grown the EC. Never intended to imply that the EC is without merit, I just happen to believe that a popular vote system would serve our country better during this period of time. We just don't agree.
John M

[asch]

I assume what he's claiming is true. If it is, it's a sober reminder how good illegal and legal immigrants have it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Z7g8xOtf4

[eliminatedsprinter]

I just believe, for many reasons, that this Country has out grown the EC. Never intended to imply that the EC is without merit, I just happen to believe that a popular vote system would serve our country better during this period of time. We just don't agree.
John M
In that case you had better watch out for me bub...Because if I ever see you at the lake (like up at BV in a couple of weeks) I will kick your a$$ with my beer, and my wifes good cooking, and Marguritas...:wink: :wink:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

In that case you had better watch out for me bub...Because if I ever see you at the lake (like up at BV in a couple of weeks) I will kick your a$$ with my beer, and my wifes good cooking, and Marguritas...:wink: :wink:
You're on. Behind the obstical course wall after school :) What's BV :confused:
Thanks
John M

[Flyinbowtie]

Superlatives and romanticism aside the electoral college has alienated voters. That's not an opinion. That's what happened. The goal of a Democracy is to encourage the popular vote thereby making the citizenry participants in their government. The electoral college may can be brought back at some date in the future? But for now, eligible voters should be brought back into the fold with which it all began. Popular vote. The majority rules. The very basic and simplistic seed that sparked the growth of modern history's greatest rise to power. The electoral vote, the two-party system, and our leadership all share the same problem.. they are corrupt beyond repair. In life if you screw something up, you go back to basics. In politics, you give more power and pile on more legislation and confusion. The extreme party bias and vitriolic nature of this forum is a perfect example of what America has become.
I think there could be a good debate as to, "What has alienated voters" the most. I don't doubt that the EC has had some impact on voter turn out; but I strongly believe that uninspiring candidates (on both sides) who are willing to say anything to get elected, and then make a full time job out of pandering to get re-elected, and to hell with what is best for the country have really been responsible for people not giving a damn about voting.
We live in a representative republic, as outlined in the Federalist Papers referenced above. The Founding Fathers and the men who created the foundation of the country could not imagine people who fought and bled for the right to vote not exercising it.
The two-party system worked up until the late 60's, imho.
Somewhere in that period we stopped having two parties who believed in the system as it had developed, and started dealing with people who really were pushing for polar opposite forms of government.
I agree with your evaluation of the overall situation. We have a huge number of elected officials who have never worked for a living as most of us do; we have a mass of career politicans who have long since ceased to be of service, and a bunch of civil servants in high places who have their own little agendas, direction from elected people be damned.
I understand your distaste for vitriolic language, I don't think anybody posting in this thread (to this point) has gone to that level, this has seemed to me to be a honest exchange of ideas. It is, to the best of my recollection, the first time I have posted in this area. I have avoided any personal attacks. Haven't felt the need to go there. This is, after all the internet, ya know?:)
I think the extreme party bias you refer to is real. People see the clear difference between what the two parties offer, and many folks are strongly opposed to being lead down the path to Socialism. That is the clear direction of one party, and those opposed to it are willing to hold their noses and vote for anything that walks the opposing path. That isn't fun, but the alternatve is unacceptable. The news recently of Ca.'s move to an earlier primary and the states that are following is going to really change the process. It will be interesting to watch.

[Rexone]

I understand your distaste for vitriolic language, I don't think anybody posting in this thread (to this point) has gone to that level, this has seemed to me to be a honest exchange of ideas. It is, to the best of my recollection, the first time I have posted in this area. I have avoided any personal attacks. Haven't felt the need to go there. This is, after all the internet, ya know?:)
Welcome to PR forum FBT. This is actually turning out to be a decent thread which I like to see here vs times in the past where it was just an ugly dirtclod fight.

[Flyinbowtie]

Thanks for the welcome, Rexone.
I have long ago lost interest in trying to carry on a conversation with folks who ain't set up for listening. About 3 months after they retired me and I stopped getting paid for it, I finally figured out there wasn't any money in it, and since it was a waste of time, what was the point?
I'm a little slow to grasp a concept, but once I get ahold of it I usually do okay.:D

[Schiada76]

I think one point missed that the electoral college serves well, whether intentionally or unintentionally, is that it prevents a charismatic politician from being elected in a time say like Germany in the thirties.
It very easy to stimulate the masses with anger and fear, just look at the political platform of the left for the last five years. It consists solely of "I HATE BUSH".

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I think one point missed that the electoral college serves well, whether intentionally or unintentionally, is that it prevents a charismatic politician from being elected in a time say like Germany in the thirties.
It very easy to stimulate the masses with anger and fear, just look at the political platform of the left for the last five years. It consists solely of "I HATE BUSH".
The Country's postion on Mr. Bush is a reflection and result of Mr. Bush's actions, or lack there of, and surely not the result of a political platform of the left.
Please clarify how the EC prevents a charismatic politician from being elected at any time. It seems to me that charismatic politicians generally win, EC or popular.
It is my believe that the masses are generally as educated as you and I. Anger and fear affect us all. There are just differences in what we fear and why we are angry.
Thanks
John m

[Blown 472]

I think one point missed that the electoral college serves well, whether intentionally or unintentionally, is that it prevents a charismatic politician from being elected in a time say like Germany in the thirties.
It very easy to stimulate the masses with anger and fear, just look at the political platform of the left for the last five years. It consists solely of "I HATE BUSH".
What has Mr. Bush done for the us of a in the time he was in office, not foriegn policy, domestic policy.

[steelcomp]

The Country's postion on Mr. Bush is a reflection and result of Mr. Bush's actions, or lack there of, and surely not the result of a political platform of the left. So you don't think there's any influence by the blatently left media in what this country "thinks" of Bush?
Pull your head out of the sand and come up for air.
It is my believe that the masses are generally as educated as you and I. Anger and fear affect us all. There are just differences in what we fear and why we are angry What on earth does that mean?? Another arrogant assumption on yout part that you can speak for the masses. Unfortunately, you're right in that you and the masses generally sit in front of the TV and think they're "educated". I mean, after all...it's on the news...it has to be true, dosen't it? :notam:

[steelcomp]

What has Mr. Bush done for the us of a in the time he was in office, not foriegn policy, domestic policy.Three things right off the bat...created millions of jobs, put money back in people's pockets with tax cuts, and we haven't been attacked again since 911, but I'm sure you'll be able to pick those apart since that's what you're so good at.
It's been clear for years that according to the "haters" (like you, Blown) that if Bush single handedly discovered a cure for cancer, it wouldn't matter...you'd find a way to blame cancer on him, anyway.

[steelcomp]

I just believe, for many reasons, that this Country has out grown the EC. Never intended to imply that the EC is without merit, I just happen to believe that a popular vote system would serve our country better during this period of time. We just don't agree.Here in lies the problem. The country has grown away from too many of it's fundamentals, like the EC. The problam isn't the EC...it's tha fact that the country is so scerewed up that things like the EC aren't as effective as they should be. The solution would be to find a way to bring this country back to it's foundation of principals, not move further away. A popular vote system would be a disaster in all the ways the founding fathers predicted, and caused them to create the EC system. I don't think there's a "politician" today, or even a group of them, who could come up with what our founding fathers came up with. They were men way ahead of their time, and the better we can stick with what they created, the better off we'll be. It's really pretty simple.

[Blown 472]

Three things right off the bat...created millions of jobs, put money back in people's pockets with tax cuts, and we haven't been attacked again since 911, but I'm sure you'll be able to pick those apart since that's what you're so good at.
It's been clear for years that according to the "haters" (like you, Blown) that if Bush single handedly discovered a cure for cancer, it wouldn't matter...you'd find a way to blame cancer on him, anyway.
Created millions of jobs?? where? oh 300 whole dollars?? what else you got?

[Rexone]

Get it back in the rhelm of the topic please. You wanna bash Bush start a thread on it. The subject is old and it's not gonna pollute this thread.

[Schiada76]

[QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2422968]The Country's postion on Mr. Bush is a reflection and result of Mr. Bush's actions, or lack there of, and surely not the result of a political platform of the left.
Please clarify how the EC prevents a charismatic politician from being elected at any time. It seems to me that charismatic politicians generally win, EC or popular.
It is my believe that the masses are generally as educated as you and I. Anger and fear affect us all. There are just differences in what we fear and why we are angry.
No, thank you!
Once again you've proven my point on many previous threads.
Just the sight of the Presidents name and all liberals immediatley go into attack mode. You are hopelessly brain washed.
This thread and my post was about the electoral college, not the president.
There are dozens of I hate Bush treads on this forum, post in one of those or stick to the topic at hand.:rolleyes:

[Blown 472]

[QUOTE=ULTRA26 # 1;2422968]The Country's postion on Mr. Bush is a reflection and result of Mr. Bush's actions, or lack there of, and surely not the result of a political platform of the left.
Please clarify how the EC prevents a charismatic politician from being elected at any time. It seems to me that charismatic politicians generally win, EC or popular.
It is my believe that the masses are generally as educated as you and I. Anger and fear affect us all. There are just differences in what we fear and why we are angry.
No thank you!
Once again you've proven my point on many previous threads.
Just the sight of the Presidents name and all liberals immediatley go into attack mode. You are hopelessly brain washed.
This thread and my post was about the electoral college, not the president.
There are dozens of I hate Bush treads on this forum, post in one of those or stick to the topic at hand.:rolleyes:
The masses are educated? and tv doesn't influance their choices?

[Schiada76]

Maybe the following example will help you understand my point, I doubt it but will try anyway.
Let's imagine that Hillary was not trying to hide the fact that she is an avowed socialist but instead conducting her campaign trying to hide the fact that she is really a devoted Communist (not really a hard stretch).
Now the media in this country has been brainwashing the masses for the entire current administrations term and it's working very well. Just suppose that a Communist is on the verge on winning the presidential election. The members of the Electoral College have not just the full right but the full responsibility to prevent that from happening.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Maybe the following example will help you understand my point, I doubt it but will try anyway.
Let's imagine that Hillary was not trying to hide the fact that she is an avowed socialist but instead conducting her campaign trying to hide the fact that she is really a devoted Communist (not really a hard stretch).
Now the media in this country has been brainwashing the masses for the entire current administrations term and it's working very well. Just suppose that a Communist is on the verge on winning the presidential election. The members of the Electoral College have not just the full right but the full responsibility to prevent that from happening.
Point well taken. However, I think to use such a point you must consider the issue in reverse. The EC also has the power to to put in power who they choose, Communist or otherwise. I am of the belief that the current administration didn't need any help (brainwashing) from the so called leftist media. The current admistration's policies and actions, have spoken for themselves.
In response to Blown's question, yes I believe that the masses are educated.
Generally speaking, the influance of one's parents or family, plays a large part in one's political views, ie more dems have dems as parents and so on. Also, education and intelligence are not synonymous. I also believe that religion plays a much greater role, when electing a President, than it should. Example, there is a new vaccine that, if administered to females at an early age, would geatly reduce a woman's chance of developing cervical cancer. There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality. This is absurd and is becomeing a political issue. Because a candidate for President shares some people's religious beliefs, doesn't mean that he/she is qualified to lead the Country. The most common form of voter ignorance, IMO
There are media attempts to brainwash from both sides. I think it's called free speach. The masses are aware of that electing Mr. Bush, for a 2nd term was a mistake. As foolish as it is, it's human nature to have to learn things the hard way. Hopefully, this Country has done just that and will consider their newly acquired knowledge, in the future.
Just my opinion.
John M

[Schiada76]

Point well taken. However, I think to use such a point you must consider the issue in reverse. The EC also has the power to to put in power who they choose, Communist or otherwise. I am of the belief that the current administration didn't need any help (brainwashing) from the so called leftist media. The current admistration's policies and actions, have spoken for themselves.
In response to Blown's question, yes I believe that the masses are educated.
Generally speaking, the influance of one's parents or family, plays a large part in one's political views, ie more dems have dems as parents and so on. Also, education and intelligence are not synonymous. I also believe that religion plays a much greater role, when electing a President, than it should. Example, there is a new vaccine that, if administered to females at an early age, would geatly reduce a woman's chance of developing cervical cancer. There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality. This is absurd and is becomeing a political issue. Because a candidate for President shares some people's religious beliefs, doesn't mean that he/she is qualified to lead the Country. The most common form of voter ignorance, IMO
There are media attempts to brainwash from both sides. I think it's called free speach. The masses are aware of that electing Mr. Bush, for a 2nd term was a mistake. As foolish as it is, it's human nature to have to learn things the hard way. Hopefully, this Country has done just that and will consider their newly acquired knowledge, in the future.
Just my opinion.
John M
Name one time in our history where the EC put someone of their choosing into power? The debate is wheter or not the EC is usefull ,I think I'll go with the founding fathers on that one. They were just a little tiny bit brighter than most don't you think?
On the "new vaccine" front do you have the faintest idea of what you're talking about? It's a vaccine for VD!
It's not a "convulted morality" issue. It's about our own rights. Do you actually think it's ok to pass a law mandating everyone's female children be vaccinated for VD????????????????????? Every single person in this country has open access to the vaccine, go ahead vaccinate your daughter if want so she can go banging around when ever she wants. Just don't make it a LAW that everyone has too!!
You really support a law like that?:rolleyes:
If you won't admit that the media in this country is 99% left wing you're nothing but a leftist ideologue.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Name one time in our history where the EC put someone of their choosing into power? The debate is wheter or not the EC is usefull ,I think I'll go with the founding fathers on that one. They were just a little tiny bit brighter than most don't you think?
On the "new vaccine" front do you have the faintest idea of what you're talking about? It's a vaccine for VD!
It's not a "convulted morality" issue. It's about our own rights. Do you actually think it's ok to pass a law mandating everyone's female children be vaccinated for VD????????????????????? Every single person in this country has open access to the vaccine, go ahead vaccinate your daughter if want so she can go banging around when ever she wants. Just don't make it a LAW that everyone has too!!
You really support a law like that?:rolleyes:
If you won't admit that the media in this country is 99% left wing you're nothing but a leftist ideologue.
!. I didn't suggest that the EC had ever done such a thing. It was you who suggested that the EC could do the opposie. Just pointed out that it goes both ways.
2. Yes i am very aware of what the vaccine is for. Your comment about my daugter banging around is about as senseless as voting for a President because he is a Christian. As I said, "convulted morality". Women, not sluts or whores, are losing their insides due to cervical cancer at an alarming rate. For your information, a man carrying HPV is as common as a woman. The intent of this vaccination is not an endorsemnt of teen intercourse. For this cancer cure to be effective, it must be administered at a young age. Like polio, malaria. measles, mumps and so on. Are you and/or yours so pure that you can honestly state that there has been no premarital sex anywhere in your family? Anyone who will have more than one sexual partner in their lives is at risk of transmissing or conttracting HPV. HPV isn't the clap or the craps. If I had a young daughter she would be taught to obstane, and she would also get this vaccine Common sense man, it's just common sense. BTW there is a difference between VD and an STD, just by name.
3. With regard to me being "nothing but a leftist ideologue". The media carries bullsh** from the left and the right. This is obvious from your response to the HPV vaccine. So you can call me Ray or you can call me Jay, but just don't calls me Johnson.
Have a great day
John M

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Name one time in our history where the EC put someone of their choosing into power? The debate is wheter or not the EC is usefull ,I think I'll go with the founding fathers on that one. They were just a little tiny bit brighter than most don't you think?
On the "new vaccine" front do you have the faintest idea of what you're talking about? It's a vaccine for VD!
It's not a "convulted morality" issue. It's about our own rights. Do you actually think it's ok to pass a law mandating everyone's female children be vaccinated for VD????????????????????? Every single person in this country has open access to the vaccine, go ahead vaccinate your daughter if want so she can go banging around when ever she wants. Just don't make it a LAW that everyone has too!!
You really support a law like that?:rolleyes:
If you won't admit that the media in this country is 99% left wing you're nothing but a leftist ideologue.
!. I didn't suggest that the EC had ever done such a thing. It was you who suggested that the EC could do the opposie. Just pointed out that it goes both ways.
2. Yes i am very aware of what the vaccine is for. Your comment about my daugter banging around is about as senseless as voting for a President because he is a Christian. As I said, "convulted morality". Women, not sluts or whores, are losing their insides due to cervical cancer at an alarming rate. For your information, a man carrying HPV is as common as a woman. The intent of this vaccination is not an endorsemnt of teen intercourse. For this cancer cure to be effective, it must be administered at a young age. Like polio, malaria. measles, mumps and so on. Are you and/or yours so pure that you can honestly state that there has been no premarital sex anywhere in your family? Anyone who will have more than one sexual partner in their lives is at risk of transmissing or conttracting HPV. HPV isn't the clap or the craps. If I had a young daughter she would be taught to obstane, and she would also get this vaccine Common sense man, it's just common sense. BTW there is a difference between VD and an STD, just by name.
3. With regard to me being "nothing but a leftist ideologue". The media carries bullsh** from the left and the right. Then there is the center. too! So you can call me Ray or you can call me Jay, but just don't calls me Johnson.
Have a great day
John M

[Schiada76]

!. I didn't suggest that the EC had ever done such a thing. It was you who suggested that the EC could do the opposie. Just pointed out that it goes both ways.
2. Yes i am very aware of what the vaccine is for. Your comment about my daugter banging around is about as senseless as voting for a President because he is a Christian. As I said, "convulted morality". Women, not sluts or whores, are losing their insides due to cervical cancer at an alarming rate. For your information, a man carrying HPV is as common as a woman. The intent of this vaccination is not an endorsemnt of teen intercourse. For this cancer cure to be effective, it must be administered at a young age. Like polio, malaria. measles, mumps and so on. Are you and/or yours so pure that you can honestly state that there has been no premarital sex anywhere in your family? Anyone who will have more than one sexual partner in their lives is at risk of transmissing or conttracting HPV. HPV isn't the clap or the craps. If I had a young daughter she would be taught to obstane, and she would also get this vaccine Common sense man, it's just common sense. BTW there is a difference between VD and an STD, just by name.
3. With regard to me being "nothing but a leftist ideologue". The media carries bullsh** from the left and the right. This is obvious from your response to the HPV vaccine. So you can call me Ray or you can call me Jay, but just don't calls me Johnson.
Have a great day
John M
So you support making it a Law, not a choice that all female children must be vaccinated for VD?
Yes or no?
There is no bullshit involved in this issue you either support the law or you don't.
Again why do you bring this into a debate on the EC?
BTW you referring to the POTUS as Mr. Bush just shows your leftist bias and yet another sign of your BDS.

[Old Texan]

There are two schools of thought.
There's the Smokin Lowrider right wing "I know what's best for you and if you didn't have the same opportunity's I did it's your fault", school of thought.
And there's what he and Old Tex consider liberal, "let every American decide" school of thought.
Their attitude and arrogance is prevalent on every thread. They will have you believe all the other threads don't count and they should only be judged for this thread.
In short, they and the rest of the brain trust only ask questions and do not answer them. They also bash on you for months and when you do retaliate they pretend their innocence and berate you for being a troll. In fact, that's what they are. Troll's. ;)
You're such a big baby. It's quite apparent you're once again seeking a reaction to play off. You bring "bashing" on yourself with the arrogance and use of "ignorant" and "idiot" among your less offensive remarks towards anyone with a differnent point of view.
Post #100 of this thread was particularly offensive and has no place in the forum.
The Troll comment is amusing as that's how you got your start around here. Care to tell the folks about your old Swastika avatar?
The thread is about the electoral college so cut your whiny pot stirring....

[Rexone]

Actually it is about immigration. EC just kind of wormed it's way to the forefront as a possible cause of voter apathy, voter apathy possibly as a cause of lack of change in immigration policy.
My opinion is that all the other stuff in this thread will be moot issues in another 50 years based on the video on Post #1. The country as we know it will no longer exist nor will the ideals and direction of the founders have any bearing or real meaning. You can see this by governments apathy on immigration, voters apathy towards government, no one's gonna change shit that has any bearing on it, on and on. It's all just slowly goin down the shithole. Mexifornia will become Mexiusa. That's if the terrorists don't blow it all to hell first due to open borders and ports.
You're right, I'm not all that optimistic based on what I've seen government accomplish on these issues in the past 20+ years or so. :(
Some say we're safe because no attacks since 911. I think we're just lucky. I do give Bush some credit for this, but I give him zero credit for making any progress in securing our borders and ports or even attempting to slow illegal immigration. I'm still glad I voted for him. Only because Kerry/Edwards would have been much worse and we'd probably already officially be part of Mexico and english would be a second language. Think about it. Edwards has already been bashing Kerry. That would have been just a match made in heaven in the whitehouse now. Two lawyer socialists that don't see eye to eye about how fast and by what means to give our country away.

[Flyinbowtie]

Rex, you've cut it to the basics, there.
I really believe you are on the money. I suspect that NAFTA was the first step in forming a, "North American Union" to compete with the EU. I think that the price of doing business in this country has driven a huge chunk of our manufacturing segment overseas or across the borders. We can debate the, "why" of that, but I don't think anybody would really take the position that it hasn't happend.
The complete lack of response by the federal government to the clear public demand for dealing with the problem leaves me with a real sense of foreboding for the future. This is a national security problem that should trump just about every thing else I can think of when it comes to homeland security.

[Poster X]

I know many sensible educated people that do not vote. Most say it's because, "it just doesn't matter". I know the brain trust will come back with some swarmy response like "Only you would think someone's intelligent that doesn't vote." That's the kind of arrogance and misunderstanding that led to voter apathy in the first place. People feel small and insignificant when faced with our gigantic government. As I have said several times on this thread, millions of people feel disenfranchised because the electoral college and general malevolentcy of modern government is beyond the average Americans' grasp.
PS, the media is not 90% liberal. There is just so much corruption and abuse of the Office nowadays you don't see many positive stories about the administration on the news. It takes a news channel with no moral conscience and a governmental agenda to spin the news [in favor of this outrageous administration] to give you the lies you want to hear. You'll have to figure out for yourselves what news channel that might be?
Anyone who believes the election process in this country does not need an overhaul is someone who believes they can only win if they have the electoral college to abuse. How can you say Democracy and exclude popular vote? There are facists on the rise.

[Blown 472]

Point well taken. However, I think to use such a point you must consider the issue in reverse. The EC also has the power to to put in power who they choose, Communist or otherwise. I am of the belief that the current administration didn't need any help (brainwashing) from the so called leftist media. The current admistration's policies and actions, have spoken for themselves.
In response to Blown's question, yes I believe that the masses are educated.
Generally speaking, the influance of one's parents or family, plays a large part in one's political views, ie more dems have dems as parents and so on. Also, education and intelligence are not synonymous. I also believe that religion plays a much greater role, when electing a President, than it should. Example, there is a new vaccine that, if administered to females at an early age, would geatly reduce a woman's chance of developing cervical cancer. There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality. This is absurd and is becomeing a political issue. Because a candidate for President shares some people's religious beliefs, doesn't mean that he/she is qualified to lead the Country. The most common form of voter ignorance, IMO
There are media attempts to brainwash from both sides. I think it's called free speach. The masses are aware of that electing Mr. Bush, for a 2nd term was a mistake. As foolish as it is, it's human nature to have to learn things the hard way. Hopefully, this Country has done just that and will consider their newly acquired knowledge, in the future.
Just my opinion.
John M
More people vote for effin american idol then they do for president, to me a country of stupid fat lazy tv fed dipshits and until the shit really hits the fan they will do nothing about it.

[Schiada76]

:D More people vote for effin american idol then they do for president, to me a country of stupid fat lazy tv fed dipshits and until the shit really hits the fan they will do nothing about it.
EXACTLEY!:D

[steelcomp]

More people vote for effin american idol then they do for president, to me a country of stupid fat lazy tv fed dipshits and until the shit really hits the fan they will do nothing about it.Blown, if you're going to try and make some kind of obscure point, make one that makes sense. TV voting is hardly comparable to an election, although I can imagine you might think it is, on your intellectual level.

[steelcomp]

There are media attempts to brainwash from both sides. I think it's called free speach. The masses are aware of that electing Mr. Bush, for a 2nd term was a mistake. As foolish as it is, it's human nature to have to learn things the hard way. Hopefully, this Country has done just that and will consider their newly acquired knowledge, in the future.Again, speaking for everyone? And now you're an expert on human nature? I don't think you could be any more wrong about human nature, or how "the masses" view Bush's second term. Saying there is brainwashing from the media on both sides is purely a lie. The conservative media dosen't have to "brainwash"... they're too busy simply exposing the left for the lying hypocrates they are. It's full time work, and it's about time. Knowledge is power, but only in truth, and the one thing that I hope this country learns is how little knowledge they've had access to through the normal chains of information, and how they've continually been manipulated and lied to, right down to our children sitting in class at school.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Again, speaking for everyone? And now you're an expert on human nature? I don't think you could be any more wrong about human nature, or how "the masses" view Bush's second term. Saying there is brainwashing from the media on both sides is purely a lie. The conservative media dosen't have to "brainwash"... they're too busy simply exposing the left for the lying hypocrates they are. It's full time work, and it's about time. Knowledge is power, but only in truth, and the one thing that I hope this country learns is how little knowledge they've had access to through the normal chains of information, and how they've continually been manipulated and lied to, right down to our children sitting in class at school.
Your're just not up to it Steel.
Hope you feel better soon.
And blown, I don't see it the same way. I don't know anyone like you describe and wouldn't I, if that's way most people are? I'm not buyin' it. Again, not an absolute, it's just the way I see it.
John M

[steelcomp]

Your're just not up to it Steel.
Hope you feel better soon.
And blown, I don't see it the same way. I don't know anyone like you describe and wouldn't I, if that's way most people are? I'm not buyin' it. Again, not an absolute, it's just the was I see it.
John MNot up to it?? Yeah, I guess I'm not. I think I'll just stand down and let you continue to make an ass out of yourself...you clearly don't need my help.
Nice way to avoid an intelligent response, too.
You're so predictable. LOL!! :D

[steelcomp]

Blown472:More people vote for effin american idol then they do for president, to me a country of stupid fat lazy tv fed dipshits and until the shit really hits the fan they will do nothing about it.
Ultra26:And blown, I don't see it the same way. I don't know anyone like you describe and wouldn't I, if that's way most people are? I'm not buyin' it. Again, not an absolute, it's just the was I see it. Look in the mirror...I think blown has you pegged to a T.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Not up to it?? Yeah, I guess I'm not. I think I'll just stand down and let you continue to make an ass out of yourself...you clearly don't need my help.
Nice way to avoid an intelligent response, too.
You're so predictable. LOL!! :D
Steel,
Noone asked for your help. Your veiws are diametrically opposed to mine, isn't that obvious? Isn't it also obvious your little attacks aren't having the same affect? "Stand down" I would sit down. Like I said before we're just opposites.
I hope you feel better
John M
added: I'm 5'10 weigh 160 #'s, I've never seen an entire Americal Idol, I don't watch network news and I'm far from lazy. I'm not who blown describes at all.

[steelcomp]

Steel,
Noone asked for your help. Your veiws are diametrically opposed to mine, isn't that obvious? Isn't it also obvious your little attacks aren't having the same affect? "Stand down" I would sit down. Like I said before we're just opposites.
I hope you feel better
John MNo attacks, just disagreements, with questions you never seem to want to answer. You don't state viewpoints, or opinions, you make rediculously stupid, uninformed, arrogant, self righteous statements, and then refuse to back them up, and instead, resort to insults. Kinda like your buddy Blown.
...and your passive-agressive condescension is pathetically weak.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

No attacks, just disagreements, with questions you never seem to want to answer. You don't state viewpoints, or opinions, you make rediculously stupid, uninformed, arrogant, self righteous statements, and then refuse to back them up, and instead, resort to insults. Kinda like your buddy Blown.
...and your passive-agressive condescension is pathetically weak.
Steel,
We're not able to see things in the same light. You speak of leftist conspiracies that you allege are in place to brainwash people like you. In my opinion, you're the one who is brainwashed. I'm not having any of what you are offering and vice versa. Can't it be left at that?
John M

[steelcomp]

Steel,
We're not able to see things in the same light. You speak of leftist conspiracies that you allege are in place to brainwash people like you. In my opinion, you're the one who is brainwashed. I'm not having of what you are offering and vice versa. Can't it be left at that?
John MNo Johnny...you must see things my way...:notam:
I don't allege anything, and if I was brainwashed, I couldn't see through your transparency. You see, to me, your complacency and ignorance is as dangerous as the "conspiracy", which puts you in the same catagory as the leftists... You're an appeaser. You don't take a stand, left or right, you stay where it's safe, in the middle, and entertain yourself in conversations using catch phrases that you hear on the nightly news and making broad sweeping statements trying to sound "informed and intelligent", and when confronted, you resort to insults and personal attacks. It's very typical. IMO, you're as much the "enemy" as they are. I'll leave it at that.

[eliminatedsprinter]

You're on. Behind the obstical course wall after school :) What's BV :confused:
Thanks
John M
Careful now, that's my secret weapon. Whenever someone who is a fellow boater disagrees with me I make them drink my beer (or my wifes's Marguritas) and eat great food with me at the lake..Get full enough on that and you'll be a right winger;) , like me, in no time.:wink:
Buena Vista Recreation Area it's up by Bakersfield. It's got nice campgrounds and it's a good little lake to shake out the winter cobwebbs.:D

[Rexone]

Get back to the thread topic gentlemen (no please included this time around). This is the final warning. Arguing with each other just for the sake of one upping isn't gonna fly here and adds nothing to the thread content (any PR thread). If you feel the need to argue, call names, my dog's bigger than your dog shit, take it to bench racers. I've had it with this subject and the reoccurant provocations following lesser and more subtile warnings. Apparently it needs to be spelled out in direct and exact terms for some. If your post doesn't include relevent information on the thread topic and is only directed at other members, you're part of the problem.
I hope I'm clear on this. If I see more if it the thread will be locked and / or edited.

[Old Texan]

. You're an appeaser. You don't take a stand, left or right, you stay where it's safe, in the middle, and entertain yourself in conversations using catch phrases that you hear on the nightly news and making broad sweeping statements trying to sound "informed and intelligent".
Sounds like a description of John McCain, Republican frontrunner I sadly suppose.
McCain will hurt us more than help us with his middle of the road "Let's all commpromise" swagger. This won't solve the border problem with Mexico. Someone in our government needs to step up and tell the people what they want to hear and then do it. That something is "Our borders are closed, period." No illegals allowed and those wishing to apply will be put on a list for serious evaluation of their abilities to become productive "Americans".
Step 2 is to let the LULAC's and other "racial" special interest groups know it's great to have a heritage but when in the USA, you live by the rules of the USA. And yes they are racial in that they dictate hate for others. We need to instill in them that to live here is to become "Americanized" which includes English as the official language, something as recently as this past week vowed to fight.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Get back to the thread topic gentlemen (no please included this time around). This is the final warning. Arguing with each other just for the sake of one upping isn't gonna fly here and adds nothing to the thread content (any PR thread). If you feel the need to argue, call names, my dog's bigger than your dog shit, take it to bench racers. I've had it with this subject and the reoccurant provocations following lesser and more subtile warnings. Apparently it needs to be spelled out in direct and exact terms for some. If your post doesn't include relevent information on the thread topic and is only directed at other members, you're part of the problem.
I hope I'm clear on this. If I see more if it the thread will be locked and / or edited.
Rex,
You commented on this a few pages ago. As I recall your comment included that we sometimes must agree that we disagree. Your point was well taken and understood from where I sit. The last posts between elininator and I were exactlty what you asked for. His kick you ass with beer and his wifes good cooking was friendly, as was my response. With regard to my responses to Steel, what would you suggest? Pointing out that we see things from totally opposite sides and asking "can't we just leave it at that" in my opinion, was exactly what you asked for????
Also, thanks for clarifying the issue of the deleted thread.
John M

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Careful now, that's my secret weapon. Whenever someone who is a fellow boater disagrees with me I make them drink my beer (or my wifes's Marguritas) and eat great food with me at the lake..Get full enough on that and you'll be a right winger;) , like me, in no time.:wink:
Buena Vista Recreation Area it's up by Bakersfield. It's got nice campgrounds and it's a good little lake to shake out the winter cobwebbs.:D
Shaking the winter cobwebs sounds good to me. Thanks for the info:)
John M

[steelcomp]

Rex,
You commented on this a few pages ago. As I recall your comment included that we sometimes must agree that we disagree. Your point was well taken and understood from where I sit. The last posts between elininator and I were exactlty what you asked for. His kick you ass with beer and his wifes good cooking was friendly, as was my response. With regard to my responses to Steel, what would you suggest? Pointing out that we see things from totally opposite sides and asking "can't we just leave it at that" in my opinion, was exactly what you asked for????
John M
WHHHaaaa wwhhHAAAA..."Rexy, he hit me....he did it, I didn't do anything!!! It was HIM! It was HIM!!! WhhhaaaAAAA! :cry: :cry: You're pathetic, and if that gets me a time out, so be it.

[steelcomp]

Sounds like a description of John McCain, Republican frontrunner I sadly suppose.
McCain will hurt us more than help us with his middle of the road "Let's all commpromise" swagger. This won't solve the border problem with Mexico. Someone in our government needs to step up and tell the people what they want to hear and then do it. That something is "Our borders are closed, period." No illegals allowed and those wishing to apply will be put on a list for serious evaluation of their abilities to become productive "Americans".
Step 2 is to let the LULAC's and other "racial" special interest groups know it's great to have a heritage but when in the USA, you live by the rules of the USA. And yes they are racial in that they dictate hate for others. We need to instill in them that to live here is to become "Americanized" which includes English as the official language, something as recently as this past week vowed to fight.I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, I don't see McCain as much of a threat. The problem with appeasement is it only works with honest people with good intentions. There are just too many people in the world today that will smile and shake your hand, just to stick you in the ribs as soon as you turn your back...metaphorically and politically speaking. Our policy of "good will" to the rest of the world has been taken advantage of to a point where we can no longer afford to take the "tired, the poor, and the hungry". It's sad, but it's reality.

[Poster X]

Blown, if you're going to try and make some kind of obscure point, make one that makes sense. TV voting is hardly comparable to an election, although I can imagine you might think it is, on your intellectual level.
Sheesh Dude. He was being ironic. Y'all are so busy trying to find a fallacy within a post you no longer are reading the posts. You're just dissecting them looking for a misspelled word, or a sentence that doesn't make sense. It is IRONIC that show's like American Idol can capture as many votes in one episode as the American Presidentcy can after 2 years of campaigning. That is a very good illustration at how disenfranchised voters really are.
The fact you can ignore the electoral vote as the mainstay of the disenfranchised voter illuminates the fact the Republican Party uses it to steal elections. If your were confident in your leadership and your ideologies the lack of an electoral college wouldn't affect your political agenda one iota. ;)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

We are all aware that the left and the right have different views and beliefs.
It isn't true that the Reps view Dems as the enemy, as some in the PR forum suggest? If this were the case, we would have Christian's viewing Jews as the enemy, whites vs. blacks and so on.
The title of this thread is "Knowledge is power", Hopefully everyone here can agree that Knowledge is power is a true statement.
Our Country is comprised of many different political, religious and cultural views, and beliefs. Freedom of speech and the freedom to believe as we choose are primary factors in making this Country great
Considering a fellow American, the "enemy" because he or she has different views political, or otherwise, doesn't follow the basic principals of our founding forefathers.
The Preamble to the Constitution:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The 1st amendment to our Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
While greatly differing in approach, the desired result of different political views, is believed to be in the best interest of our Country. This common interest, should create some element of respect between opposing political views.
It has been said, in this thread, that media broadcasting the right wing agenda, is completely truthful, while the media on the left, is a conspiracy intent on brainwashing the masses. It has also been said that our schools are conspiring leftists intent on brainwashing this Country's young. The remedy to the leftist media, suggested in this thread, was censorship.
The knowledge that the answers to all of the critical issues our Country is now facing, will not be found at the far left or the far right, is absent in this forum. The proper method of repair of this Country will come from a joint effort from both sides.
The sooner the sides stop bashing each other, the sooner we will be able to get together and accomplish some positive forward movement.
John M

[Poster X]

God came to me and told me to bash Smokin and ancient Tex. I'm just his humble servant. ;)
Your post seems sincere so I'll treat it thusly:
There is no turning back from the vast divide the Right has created in this country. They have superior use of psychology (or they just really want to attract lot's of stupid people) utilizing phrases such as "cut and run", "redistribution of wealth", and a plethora of others that has become the mantra for unibrows and the uneducated everywhere. It does not have to be true. All it has to do is sound good and that becomes the new truth. They do not want you to vote.. they want you to choose. Liberal, the Left, Demorat, and other innocent words have been turned into curse words and words that create hostility by a media with no other agenda than dividing the country and creating caste system they themselves ride the crest of. There's no going back. The simple minded doofus' entrapped by media driven bullshit are indeed.. the enemy. I guess it would be unamerican to depatriate idiots?

[Rexone]

The fact you can ignore the electoral vote as the mainstay of the disenfranchised voter illuminates the fact the Republican Party uses it to steal elections. If your were confident in your leadership and your ideologies the lack of an electoral college wouldn't affect your political agenda one iota. ;)
I don't believe it to be so. I as a Republican (a moderate one somewhat on some issues and probably pretty right on others) believe every time I vote for pres. in Calif to be disenfranchised, as I mentioned in an earlier post. I don't like the EC concept period. I don't like Al Gore either as I mentioned earlier and realize he'd have won based on popular vote nationally. I still don't like the EC so I have no republican skewed agenda. Let the better candidate win.
I know many informed and educated people who fail to vote at all for similar feelings as mine, people that are republicans and democrats. After all why vote if it's a shoe in based on the advance polls and neither candidate bothers to campaign Cali other than for Hollywood money. Since all states choose to throw all their Electorals one way or the other I'm sure it's that way for many in other states as well. The candidates only campaign in states where the ball could go either way (close states). There's a big inequity in this concept and one I feel argues just as strong against the EC as other points arguing for it. Right now many republicans and democrats vote's alike are never heard in many states across the country. It isn't right. The country isn't as rural by a long shot as it was when the EC was set up. There are population centers in a large number of states as well as rural areas. Further, population centers are not by any stretch all one sided. So cal for example is a pretty close split. Currently the millions of republicans wishes are never heard with regards to presidential election. I know the next thing I'll hear is the federalist argument. Well sometimes when things change and situations change you have to change accordingly or things stop working properly.
As technologies develop older technologies are abandoned. Same holds true with concepts and systems. You can look many places in government to see they don't get this. Post office, many government provided services, welfare, immigration enforcement, social security, many more. On the other side of the government spectrum things are cutting edge... weapons systems, NASA, etc. There is not much consistancy in the way government applies priorities and new thought throughout its different divisions or adapts to change in the nation or needs around it effectively.
Honestly I probably only vote because there's other elections to be decided that are based on popular vote, senators, congress, propositions, etc. If it were only president and I knew my vote didn't mean shit, either direction, I'd likely stay home too. (I can't help but wonder if Fienstien and Boxer would still be in office if the EC didn't disinfranchise the state's republican voters to stay home). I'm confident that's not what the country's founders had in mind as a result either when they created the EC.

[Poster X]

Ironic the Governator is your biggest foe?
From October (http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2006/10/schwarzenegger_27.html)

[ULTRA26 # 1]

God came to me and told me to bash Smokin and ancient Tex. I'm just his humble servant. ;)
Your post seems sincere so I'll treat it thusly:
There is no turning back from the vast divide the Right has created in this country. They have superior use of psychology (or they just really want to attract lot's of stupid people) utilizing phrases such as "cut and run", "redistribution of wealth", and a plethora of others that has become the mantra for unibrows and the uneducated everywhere. It does not have to be true. All it has to do is sound good and that becomes the new truth. They do not want be to vote.. they want them to choose. Liberal, the Left, Demorat, and other innocent words have been turned into curse words and words that create hostility by a media with no other agenda than dividing the country and creating caste system they themselves ride the crest of. There's no going back. The simple minded doofus' entrapped by media driven bullshit are indeed.. the enemy. I guess it would be unamerican to depatriate idiots?
Poster,
You have been a part of the PR forums much longer than I, as a result, you have considerabally more experiance in dealing with these folks.
As I have stated in the past, I am 56 years old and I have discussed simillar issues with countless people in the last 35 years. I grew up in Los Angeles, where, for the most part, people were educated. I have never run across the mindset that believes any of the radical right views, like those professed by some of the major players here. It seems that this may be a result of internet communication as opposed to face to face. I really don't know.
How do these people develop such insane, radical and convoluted postitions? The so called leftist conspiracy is from another planet. The suggestions of American's being enemies of each other, that your either for this country or against it (which can be determined by one's party affiliation), that the masses are fat lazy pieces of sh**, that there is no dishonesty in the right side media, and so on and so on and so on, come from a very twisted and insecure mentality. I am not implying that this holds true for all of the right, in these forums, becuase it doesn't.
I guess I am finding it hard to accept that our Country has actually deteriorated to the mentality of the current administration and the few combative posters in these forums.
added: Very well put Rex
John M

[Poster X]

I can count on one hand the Republicans that I've met who could discuss the issues of this administration without resorting to threats or reverting to past history to skew the issue.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

I can count on one hand the Republicans that I've met who could discuss the issues of this administration without resorting to threats or reverting to past history to skew the issue.
Early on, it was more difficult than it has been recently. The Republicans I have spoken with feel betrayed by the current administration. This is mainly due to the war and uncontrolled spending. I have also heard complaints about increases in income tax, resulting from recent changes in the laws pertaining to the dependent child deduction. A while back I started a thread about middle classers paying more federal income tax and it seems that noone here wants to admit that that their guy did raise taxes. Talk about loyalty to a fault.
John M

[Schiada76]

You two are really a laugh riot.
One of you actually states in this forum that the only reason Communism hasn't worked yet is because humans just haven't evolved to a higher plane.
The other thinks it's just hunky dorry to pass a law mandating all young females must be vaccinated for VD.
Then you wonder why we respond to your inane commentary the way we do.:rolleyes:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

You two are really a laugh riot.
One of you actually states in this forum that the only reason Communism hasn't worked yet is because humans just haven't evolved to a higher plane.
The other thinks it's just hunky dorry to pass a law mandating all young females must be vaccinated for VD.
Then you wonder why we respond to your inane commentary the way we do.:rolleyes:
Don't think it should be a law, and never implied that I did. However, I do beleive anyone in their right mind would do whatever they can to prevent their daughters from contracting and possibly dying from cervical cancer. One sexual partner per lifetime for all men and all women is the only other way, which is not very realistic. Men carry HPV without knowing it. Even if our daughters abstain, until after marriage, they are only not at risk if their husbands have also abstained. Fat chance of that. It's comon sense. BTW, I understand why you respond like you do.
VD doesn't = HPV.

[Rexone]

Ironic the Governator is your biggest foe?
From October (http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2006/10/schwarzenegger_27.html)
The lesser of 2 evils. As it seems most elected politicians are these days. Angeledes would have taken Cali back to the dark ages of Grey Davis and beyond imo. That's been my view of the choices for presidential candidates for many years also. Most have a large degree of big talk campaining and a small degree of doing much in those directions afterwards. And most of Congress is just as bad.

[Schiada76]

that religion plays a much greater role, when electing a President, than it should. Example, there is a new vaccine that, if administered to females at an early age, would geatly reduce a woman's chance of developing cervical cancer. There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality.
This is from your post.
This is why trying to discuss anything with a liberal is impossible.
You lay out an absurd insult against people opposed to a LAW forcing their daughters to be vaccinated for VD and you call the opposing viewpoint "convoluted morality". You are at best intellectually dishonest and a true ideologe.
"There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality."
If I posted what I'm thinking in regards to this statement Mike wouldn't give me a time out, he would ban me from the boards permenently.:mad: :mad:

[Schiada76]

Don't think it should be a law, and never implied that I did. However, I do beleive anyone in their right mind would do whatever they can to prevent their daughters from contracting and possibly dying from cervical cancer. One sexual partner per lifetime for all men and all women is the only other way, which is not very realistic. Men carry HPV without knowing it. Even if our daughters abstain, until after marriage, they are only not at risk if their husbands have also abstained. Fat chance of that. It's comon sense. BTW, I understand why you respond like you do.
VD doesn't = HPV.
Oh my my my I'm so sorry! It's just a sexually transmitted disease then.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
"Genital HPV infection is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) that is caused by human papillomavirus (HPV)." (just a quick cut and paste)
Yup ya sure got me and that 'ol VD thing didn't you?
You libs sure make it easy to shoot holes in your lack of truth and logic.

[Moneypitt]

[QUOTE]Oh my my my I'm so sorry! It's just a sexually transmitted disease then.
Aids is a STD.........Protected by a Congressional law. The first ever STD to have that type of protection.......MP
PS: what is wrong with the "quote" feature?? I tried to quote and it was a different post???????

[Schiada76]

Nope, I gotta admit you really got me on the VD definition, Yup you shore 'nuff did, we's hillbilles doan knows jack.
"Sexually transmitted infections (STIs) — also known as sexually transmissible diseases(STDs), venereal diseases (VD), or infrequently, social disease — are diseases or infections that have a significant probability of transmission between humans by means of sexual contact, vaginal intercourse, oral sex, or anal sex. Some of the STIs can be transmitted through birth, IV needles, or breastfeeding."
Nope its cants be no vd nows cans its?
Please 'o great and wonderous liberal man please edjamacate me in the ways of the chosen.:rolleyes:

[Rexone]

Nope, I gotta admit you really got me on the VD definition, Yup you shore 'nuff did, we's hillbilles doan knows jack.
"Sexually transmitted infections (STIs) — also known as sexually transmissible diseases(STDs), venereal diseases (VD), or infrequently, social disease — are diseases or infections that have a significant probability of transmission between humans by means of sexual contact, vaginal intercourse, oral sex, or anal sex. Some of the STIs can be transmitted through birth, IV needles, or breastfeeding."
Nope its cants be no vd nows cans its?
Please 'o great and wonderous liberal man please edjamacate me in the ways of the chosen.:rolleyes:
quote test only.
working here.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Oh my my my I'm so sorry! It's just a sexually transmitted disease then.:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
"Genital HPV infection is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) that is caused by human papillomavirus (HPV)." (just a quick cut and paste)
Yup ya sure got me and that 'ol VD thing didn't you?
You libs sure make it easy to shoot holes in your lack of truth and logic.
Shoot all of the holes you would like. Do you expect your daughter to marry a virgin? If not then you should get your head out of your behind, and understand the facts. Better yet, give us any valid reason why your daughter should be not protected against this desease. This isn't about purity, it's about cancer. You have the right to leave your daughter exposed if you would like. Just doesn't sound very fatherly to me. There is no logic here, is there?
Sorry about the STD VD thing, you are right in this regard.
John M
added: What I'm taling about has nothing to do with liberal. Seems that most here have no other response to someone discussing common sense, other than to cry "liberal" Then again, I understand why you respond as you do.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

that religion plays a much greater role, when electing a President, than it should. Example, there is a new vaccine that, if administered to females at an early age, would geatly reduce a woman's chance of developing cervical cancer. There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality.
This is from your post.
This is why trying to discuss anything with a liberal is impossible.
You lay out an absurd insult against people opposed to a LAW forcing their daughters to be vaccinated for VD and you call the opposing viewpoint "convoluted morality". You are at best intellectually dishonest and a true ideologe.
"There is a movement that is opposing this significant medical breakthrough, based on some convoluted morality."
If I posted what I'm thinking in regards to this statement Mike wouldn't give me a time out, he would ban me from the boards permenently.:mad: :mad:
Please show everyone where I even suggested that the vaccine should be a law. Please .
You would rather do nothing to prevent you daughter getting cancer. It's common sense. I guess cancer is God's punishment for having premarital sex. Right?? To bad your daughter may get punished for something her husband did. Convoluted morality at it's finest.

[Schiada76]

No it wasn't about lib vs cons YOU made it so with a vacuos statement.
It's about LIBERALS trying to pass a law toFORCE CHILDREN to be vaccinated for VENERAL DISEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you just pass a law making it illegal to have sex? That would make just as much sense.
Why do you liberals all ignore the facts?
Let me try to make it simple (like that would help an ideologe like yourself).
They tried to pass a law in Texas making it mandatory to vaccinate for HPV.
People protested passing a LAW forcing their kids to be vaccinated for VD.
YOU call that " convoluted morality".
You're insane.:rolleyes:
ANYONE THAT WANTS TOO CAN STILL GET THE VACCINE ANY TIME THEY WANT!

[ULTRA26 # 1]

No it wasn't about lib vs cons YOU made it so with a vacuos statement.
It's about LIBERALS trying to pass a law toFORCE CHILDREN to be vaccinated for VENERAL DISEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you just pass a law making it illegal to have sex? That would make just as much sense.
Why do you liberals all ignore the facts?
Let me try to make it simple (like that would help an ideologe like yourself).
They tried to pass a law in Texas making it mandatory to vaccinate for HPV.
People protested passing a LAW forcing their kids to be vaccinated for VD.
YOU call that " convoluted morality".
You're insane.:rolleyes:
ANYONE THAT WANTS TOO CAN STILL GET THE VACCINE ANY TIME THEY WANT!
Again Who said anything about a law??????
Your comment "Every single person in this country has open access to the vaccine, go ahead vaccinate your daughter if want so she can go banging around when ever she wants." Convoluted morality
Ignorance is what I call it, plain and simple.

[steelcomp]

It is IRONIC that show's like American Idol can capture as many votes in one episode as the American Presidentcy can after 2 years of campaigning. That is a very good illustration at how disenfranchised voters really are. It's ironic that you can even compare a TV show to an election, but there you are. Here's the truth behind your comparison...the TV viewing audience can vote as many times as they like for one candidate. That's where they get the numbers.
The fact you can ignore the electoral vote as the mainstay of the disenfranchised voter illuminates the fact the Republican Party uses it to steal elections. If your were confident in your leadership and your ideologies the lack of an electoral college wouldn't affect your political agenda one iota.Wow...this is the most twisted nonsense double talk that I've ever heard. You're claiming that your opinion about voters being disenfranchised with the EC, is fact.
Prove it.
Then you jump the shark here, and try and connect the EC with your claiming (again, as if it's fact) the nasty ol' Republicans stole votes?? Are you really that shallow? Could you twist this any harder? My confidence in my leadership? My ideologies? The lack of an EC wouold definately effect my political agenda. Are you being obtuse? This is really an outstanding example of how just twisted a lib's reasoning and logic can be.
Try using some intelligence for once.

[Old Texan]

Then again, I understand why you respond as you do.
Please enlighten us to what "you understand".....I'm just not pulling much from the man's statements that enables this "Freudian Like" ability to read thoughts across the internet.
You and your friend have continued to "jump ship" on the thread topic then throw in the sidebars with shaking heads on how the majority just don't get it like: "You do".
On one hand you complain -conservatives/Republicans/those of views different from yours- berate the mental capacities of the legions to have the intelligence to cast a vote, and in the next journey from the topic complain the- conservatives/Republicans/those of views different from yours- are wrong because they argue the sames legions have the intelligence to get their daughters innoculated and think mandatory vacinations are wrong.
So in an attempt to steer things back on course by bringing your latest off topic jaunt back on topic, tell the group what we need to do about vaccinations for the vast group of borderjumpers that if left unchecked will no doubt bring medieval dieases back to life? More social programs and feed some bucks into the doctors w/o borders or maybe we just get tough and shut down the borders?
Ain't no utopia on the horizon any time soon and I haven't heard to many good suggestions out of DC lately on either side of the aisle. The Nov elections were akin to the dog catching the car and not having a clue what to do next.....kinda like a coupla' legends in their own mind looking down their snozolas at the rest of the world and claiming they know better.

[Old Texan]

It's ironic that you can even compare a TV show to an election, but there you are. Here's the truth behind your comparison...the TV viewing audience can vote as many times as they like for one candidate. That's where they get the numbers.
Try using some intelligence for once.
What I don't quite understand is how some one who claims evil TV is so very bad always brings up TV programs as analogies and has the knowledge of what goes on during said shows although they would never watch??????
Maybe all the "lost souls" aimlessly wandering about the desert only too mistakenly cross over the southern border with hopes of better futures are just coming to see Paula Abdul's puppies?
(Please note my Politically Correctnes in avoiding using the degrading "illegal alien" moniker.) Am I getting my liberal feminine caring side working or what???? If only Ann Coulter could feel the joy in my heart, she wouldn't sound like such a conservative shrew.....:devil:

[Poster X]

Again irony is lost on the sheeple. What a shock. The comparison is that Americans would rather vote on a hot dog eating contest [<-- random thought] than their President. I'm sure you'll think Americans are now voting on more county fair indulgences than at the polls. But, it's a simile of the previous analogy. It's not about the numbers.. it's about the interest (or lack thereof). ;)
We could dumb it down to Dick and Jane references but then you'd just think we believed there were more spots on..well.. umm.. Spot.. than there were voters.

[steelcomp]

Poster,
You have been a part of the PR forums much longer than I, as a result, you have considerabally more experiance in dealing with these folks.
As I have stated in the past, I am 56 years old and I have discussed simillar issues with countless people in the last 35 years. I grew up in Los Angeles, where, for the most part, people were educated. I have never run across the mindset that believes any of the radical right views, like those professed by some of the major players here. It seems that this may be a result of internet communication as opposed to face to face. I really don't know.
How do these people develop such insane, radical and convoluted postitions? The so called leftist conspiracy is from another planet. The suggestions of American's being enemies of each other, that your either for this country or against it (which can be determined by one's party affiliation), that the masses are fat lazy pieces of sh**, that there is no dishonesty in the right side media, and so on and so on and so on, come from a very twisted and insecure mentality. I am not implying that this holds true for all of the right, in these forums, becuase it doesn't.
I guess I am finding it hard to accept that our Country has actually deteriorated to the mentality of the current administration and the few combative posters in these forums.
added: Very well put Rex
John MThere you sit in judgement again, all high and mighty, better than everyone else. And before you start bawling about this "not being on topic", it's directly on topic. You say in your vast 35 years you've spoken with countless people. They're of the opinion that the Bush admin. has let them down, and it's due to the war and uncontrolled spending. I'll give you the spending, but the war? What do you, or most of these people know of the war? Have you been in Iraq? Have you talked to more than one or two who have been there? Would you even listen to someone who's been there that didn't present the same picture as you'd like to see?
I see a pattern with appeasers and moderates...they like to stay somewhere in the middle where it's safe. They limit their intake of information intentionally, so as to support their position, like you. You say in your 35 years you never ran across the mindset that believes any of the radical right views? I believe that, and I believe you didn't want to come across it, and in fact, probably avoid it, but those people and that mindset are there. I grew up in LA too, and I can call any one of a number of people who will agree with me. I hear hundreds of vioces representing (millions of them) every day on different radio shows.
I have many friends and I have family members that have been, or are still in, Iraq, and I can say AS A FACT, that most of the people you talk to about Iraq, about the war, don't have a clue as to what's really going on there, or even care to. They get their information, their knowledge, from the TV and the news paper, and profess to know the truth. It's no wonder the nation feels the way it does about the war with the BS it's been fed. I've said this countless times, but thanks to our media, which is blatently left, (and has been proven and exposed to be on too many occasions) there is no truth to be known. I was a crewchief on Blackhawks for three years, and I know the difference between what you hear, and what's so. What you hear from the main stream media isn't what's so, it's what they want you to hear. If you want to be informed, if you want knowledge, (and knowledge is truth) I submit to you there are sources out there. What you rhetort as truth, isn't. Therefore, you and your friends have no knowledge...only gossip. But clearly, you're apathetically comfortable with that. It requires nothing of you that might risk some discomfort or inconvenience. Taking a weak stand on an internet site dosen't count.
The so-called leftist conspiracy is alive and right under your nose, but if you want to pretend it dosen't exist so you can stay in yout comfort zone, that's fine. You say it's from another planet...I have a suggestion...do some research...follow the money trail behind the anti war groups and tell me where it leads. Find out who funds their ralleys and functions.
Party affiliation, IMO, is a clear definition these days of your patriotism. With the groups and organizations and the ideals the left continues to align itself with, how can you not see this? How about how they've completely undermined this presiden't's efforts in Iraq? If you or your friends want to blame someone for the way the war's going, why don't you start there? (And it's all pure political grandstanding...if the dems wanted to de-fund the war, they could, but they won't) How many of our constitutional rights do Liberal judges have to take away from us before you realize what's happening there? How about the outright assault on Christianity? That's not coming from the conservatives, is it? Isn't that what this country was based on...it's foundation and principals...Judeo Christian values? You won't admit it, but you think passing a law forcing teen age girsl to be vaccinated is a good thing?? What about freedom? What about the environmental extremist whacko assault on our private property? That's not coming from the right, is it? This could go on indefinately.
The division is clear, and not just to me. Move left, and away from this country's foundation and principals and the genius behind it's founding fathers, or move right, in an attempt to hold on to, and possible return to what it was that made this a great contry...once, long ago. (or stay in the middle and profess to be superior, but be and do nothing) That's the division, and I for one, will stand to defend this country and what it once was against those who are trying to move it left, because what that movement is turning this country into, sucks. Call it combative, but I wonder if forced to take a side, which you'd take? I'll stand to defned it here, allbeit combative, or with rifle in hand. Either way, I will take a stand.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Please enlighten us to what "you understand".....I'm just not pulling much from the man's statements that enables this "Freudian Like" ability to read thoughts across the internet.
You and your friend have continued to "jump ship" on the thread topic then throw in the sidebars with shaking heads on how the majority just don't get it like: "You do".
On one hand you complain -conservatives/Republicans/those of views different from yours- berate the mental capacities of the legions to have the intelligence to cast a vote, and in the next journey from the topic complain the- conservatives/Republicans/those of views different from yours- are wrong because they argue the sames legions have the intelligence to get their daughters innoculated and think mandatory vacinations are wrong.
So in an attempt to steer things back on course by bringing your latest off topic jaunt back on topic, tell the group what we need to do about vaccinations for the vast group of borderjumpers that if left unchecked will no doubt bring medieval dieases back to life? More social programs and feed some bucks into the doctors w/o borders or maybe we just get tough and shut down the borders?
Ain't no utopia on the horizon any time soon and I haven't heard to many good suggestions out of DC lately on either side of the aisle. The Nov elections were akin to the dog catching the car and not having a clue what to do next.....kinda like a coupla' legends in their own mind looking down their snozolas at the rest of the world and claiming they know better.
I undertand that the man is unable to see past his rant. I believe that, with regard to the vaccine issue, that it is twisted to to suggest that not protecting the health of one's daughter, is in some way a good thing. At no time have I or would I have suggested that this should law.
Not sure what friend you are talking about, as I've made more than one. This thread is titled Knowledge is power, so not sure about the jump ship thing, either. I believe that everyone should be as inforned as possible, that everyone ,who can, should vote and that all votes should count equally.
I have not complained about anything consevative, as I would no reason to. My compaints have been about those on the radical right, who suggest the a Dem is the enemy of the Rep. In a coutry where different ideals, veiws and beliefs are eveywhere. Implication that anyone in this forum is my enemy, or vise versa, because of different polical views, is un-American. IMO
I agrere that mandatory (by law) vaccinations are wrong. However, I believe that is all of our responsabilities, as parents, to prevent our children from suffering from the likes of cancer every time we can. Teaching our kids to abstain, is by far, the 1st order of business. Safe sex, is the 2nd. But as we all no doubt remember, mistakes are going to be made, by young men and women. Basically, it's about the prevention of cancer and IMO no way can it be intelligently viewed as condoning pre-adult sex, or as someone else put it, banging who she pleases.
Shutting down the borders needs to be done now, IMO
I agree with your comment that threre ain't no utopia on the horizon. I also agree that little good is coming out of DC these days, from either side.
I believe that it is going the take the best of what we have to make any real headway on getting this Country back on track. The best of both sides.
There are intelligent and articulate peeps in this forum, who have different points of view. How about the best of all worlds.
I'm not your enemy, I promise you that.
John M

[steelcomp]

What I don't quite understand is how some one who claims evil TV is so very bad always brings up TV programs as analogies and has the knowledge of what goes on during said shows although they would never watch??????
Maybe all the "lost souls" aimlessly wandering about the desert only too mistakenly cross over the southern border with hopes of better futures are just coming to see Paula Abdul's puppies?
(Please note my Politically Correctnes in avoiding using the degrading "illegal alien" moniker.) Am I getting my liberal feminine caring side working or what???? If only Ann Coulter could feel the joy in my heart, she wouldn't sound like such a conservative shrew.....:devil: I heard the same comparison by someone else, and that was the answer given. I do watch some TV...otherwise I couldn't comment on it, now could I? I get the big three...no cable, just rabbit ears. That's enough to turn my stomach. Tues night I like to watch "The Unit", though.
OT...a good ol' boy like you, bashin Ann??? (Maybe I'm not gettin the humor?)
Just don't mention "faggot". :jawdrop:

[ULTRA26 # 1]

There you sit in judgement again, all high and mighty, better than everyone else. And before you start bawling about this "not being on topic", it's directly on topic. You say in your vast 35 years you've spoken with countless people. They're of the opinion that the Bush admin. has let them down, and it's due to the war and uncontrolled spending. I'll give you the spending, but the war? What do you, or most of these people know of the war? Have you been in Iraq? Have you talked to more than one or two who have been there? Would you even listen to someone who's been there that didn't present the same picture as you'd like to see?
I see a pattern with appeasers and moderates...they like to stay somewhere in the middle where it's safe. They limit their intake of information intentionally, so as to support their position, like you. You say in your 35 years you never ran across the mindset that believes any of the radical right views? I believe that, and I believe you didn't want to come across it, and in fact, probably avoid it, but those people and that mindset are there. I grew up in LA too, and I can call any one of a number of people who will agree with me. I hear hundreds of vioces representing (millions of them) every day on different radio shows.
I have many friends and I have family members that have been, or are still in, Iraq, and I can say AS A FACT, that most of the people you talk to about Iraq, about the war, don't have a clue as to what's really going on there, or even care to. They get their information, their knowledge, from the TV and the news paper, and profess to know the truth. It's no wonder the nation feels the way it does about the war with the BS it's been fed. I've said this countless times, but thanks to our media, which is blatently left, (and has been proven and exposed to be on too many occasions) there is no truth to be known. I was a crewchief on Blackhawks for three years, and I know the difference between what you hear, and what's so. What you hear from the main stream media isn't what's so, it's what they want you to hear. If you want to be informed, if you want knowledge, (and knowledge is truth) I submit to you there are sources out there. What you rhetort as truth, isn't. Therefore, you and your friends have no knowledge...only gossip. But clearly, you're apathetically comfortable with that. It requires nothing of you that might risk some discomfort or inconvenience. Taking a weak stand on an internet site dosen't count.
The so-called leftist conspiracy is alive and right under your nose, but if you want to pretend it dosen't exist so you can stay in yout comfort zone, that's fine. You say it's from another planet...I have a suggestion...do some research...follow the money trail behind the anti war groups and tell me where it leads. Find out who funds their ralleys and functions.
Party affiliation, IMO, is a clear definition these days of your patriotism. With the groups and organizations and the ideals the left continues to align itself with, how can you not see this? How about how they've completely undermined this presiden't's efforts in Iraq? If you or your friends want to blame someone for the way the war's going, why don't you start there? (And it's all pure political grandstanding...if the dems wanted to de-fund the war, they could, but they won't) How many of our constitutional rights do Liberal judges have to take away from us before you realize what's happening there? How about the outright assault on Christianity? That's not coming from the conservatives, is it? Isn't that what this country was based on...it's foundation and principals...Judeo Christian values? You won't admit it, but you think passing a law forcing teen age girsl to be vaccinated is a good thing?? What about freedom? What about the environmental extremist whacko assault on our private property? That's not coming from the right, is it? This could go on indefinately.
The division is clear, and not just to me. Move left, and away from this country's foundation and principals and the genius behind it's founding fathers, or move right, in an attempt to hold on to, and possible return to what it was that made this a great contry...once, long ago. (or stay in the middle and profess to be superior, but be and do nothing) That's the division, and I for one, will stand to defend this country and what it once was against those who are trying to move it left, because what that movement is turning this country into, sucks. Call it combative, but I wonder if forced to take a side, which you'd take? I'll stand to defned it here, allbeit combative, or with rifle in hand. Either way, I will take a stand.
Steel,
I'm sorry that you see me as you do. You're absolutely right about my I standing on middle ground. I don't things as left or right, I veiw things as right and wrong. I truely believe that this Country would be better served if the far right and the far left would do more agreeing and less posturing. I am confident that defending my veiws or you defending your, here, will never be done with fists or rifles so there is no need to wonder. Our civil War was over long ago. The result being United States. IMO no good can come from another.
Your not my enemy.
So long everyone. I'm headed back to the boating forums to talk about boats, the reason I came here in the first place.
Take care
John M

[Poster X]

There you sit in judgement again, all high and mighty, better than everyone else. And before you start bawling about this "not being on topic", it's directly on topic. You say in your vast 35 years you've spoken with countless people. They're of the opinion that the Bush admin. has let them down, and it's due to the war and uncontrolled spending. I'll give you the spending, but the war? What do you, or most of these people know of the war? Have you been in Iraq? Have you talked to more than one or two who have been there? Would you even listen to someone who's been there that didn't present the same picture as you'd like to see?
Isn't it rather arrogant of you to assume that you are the only one who knows or lost people in Iraq? Or that anyone opposed to the war has not been to Iraq? Isn't it even more than arrogant for you to assume the majority of our military personel support the war just because they wear a uniform? Contrary to your self serving rant the young people fighting this war have a zest for life, love of family, and a mind of their own. No one wants to die for a cause unless their commitment to that cause is absolute. Assuming they all do is not only arrogant and shallow minded, but an out and out lie.

[steelcomp]

Isn't it rather arrogant of you to assume that you are the only one who knows or lost people in Iraq? Where did I say that? Or that anyone opposed to the war has not been to Iraq? Where did I say that? Isn't it even more than arrogant for you to assume the majority of our military personel support the war just because they wear a uniform? Where did I say that? Contrary to your self serving rant the young people fighting this war have a zest for life, love of family, and a mind of their own. No one wants to die for a cause unless their commitment to that cause is absolute. Duh! Assuming they all do is not only arrogant and shallow minded, but an out and out lie. Wher did I say that? PosterX, you're just an ass. Nothing you said above has anything to do with anything I said, and again, you have an unmatched talent for twisting things. Are you that desperate for a fight? I got an idea...stick your head back up your ass and fight for air. :notam:

[bigq]

wow, so this is where the thread went...huh. Started out with good info.:rolleyes:

[Old Texan]

OT...a good ol' boy like you, bashin Ann??? (Maybe I'm not gettin the humor?)
Just don't mention "faggot". :jawdrop:
Ann's the best, it was a sarcastic swipe at PC which I detest as does she.....:D

[Schiada76]

"I agrere that mandatory (by law) vaccinations are wrong. However, I believe that is all of our responsabilities, as parents, to prevent our children from suffering from the likes of cancer every time we can. Teaching our kids to abstain, is by far, the 1st order of business. Safe sex, is the 2nd. But as we all no doubt remember, mistakes are going to be made, by young men and women. Basically, it's about the prevention of cancer and IMO no way can it be intelligently viewed as condoning pre-adult sex, or as someone else put it, banging who she pleases. "
Then be honest and don't make some inane statement about "convoluted morality".
Look either you're not being truthful about not knowing the controversy was about a law mandating the vaccination or someone lied to you. Doing a little research before posting would help your point.
One other little tidbit that has eluded you on this issue, just how much money do you think the pharmaceutical company that was going to supply the entire state with the vaccination stands to make off of the law and just much money was paid to the politician that proposed it?

[Moneypitt]

Hey, "Knowledge is power"..........Knowledge of what causes a certain cancer, and knowledge of how to prevent it, IS POWER. Power to save a life is the greatest power of all powers, agreed?........Who would not want to prevent cancer? What kind of a total moron would deny their daughter this oppertunity to be free of this cancer? People, this is a no brainer, and the saddest part is some parents are so retarded it may take a law, like Polio in the 50s, to wipe this cancer away forever........Does anyone here actually want their daughter to have the oppertunity to HAVE cancer?.............No brainer for sure........MP

[Poster X]

What do you, or most of these people know of the war? Have you been in Iraq? Have you talked to more than one or two who have been there? Would you even listen to someone who's been there that didn't present the same picture as you'd like to see?
Your words doofus. :D

[sangervdrive]

Hey, "Knowledge is power"..........Knowledge of what causes a certain cancer, and knowledge of how to prevent it, IS POWER. Power to save a life is the greatest power of all powers, agreed?........Who would not want to prevent cancer? What kind of a total moron would deny their daughter this oppertunity to be free of this cancer? People, this is a no brainer, and the saddest part is some parents are so retarded it may take a law, like Polio in the 50s, to wipe this cancer away forever........Does anyone here actually want their daughter to have the oppertunity to HAVE cancer?.............No brainer for sure........MP
Maybe then we should cut every persons hands off because they could strangle someone and kill them, oh we should also make it a law to cut everyones tonque off because they could choke.

[Poster X]

Excuse me but, aren't most of you from California where you just enacted a law stating parents cannot spank their children? If you are so against more government why does a Republican state lead the country in liberal mandates against personal freedoms? Don't blame it on the liberals either. You have a Republican Governor. Y'all are on Ultra like stink on shit when in fact, we've lost more personal freedoms on your watch than all other Presidencies combined. Your credibility is absolutely null and void when entering this discussion if you support George Bush and the reichish Homeland Security Act. Personally I am against forced inoculations simply because one law leads to another. The same reason as I am opposed to seat belt and helmet laws. Atrition is just as important as life. As a matter of fact atrition is key in the debate of quality of life.

[Moneypitt]

Maybe then we should cut every persons hands off because they could strangle someone and kill them, oh we should also make it a law to cut everyones tonque off because they could choke.
What are you stupid? (That was a question). How can you relate the POWER to PREVENT cancer, to your idiotic suggestions?? You think this is funny? You think cancer is a joke? You think we need more women dying needlessly? Pull your fockin head out of the sand. What if was a cure for prostrate cancer? You wouldn't want to be immunized? After your statement I guess my first sentence is redundant...........MP

[sangervdrive]

I'm all for the cures to every disease I just don't like giving the federal government even more control over our lives. My point was people can die from anything.

[Moneypitt]

I'm all for the cures to every disease I just don't like giving the federal government even more control over our lives. My point was people can die from anything.
I hardly think that this is overwhelming government control. It is non invasive, a simple shot, good for life......Simular to what they did with Polio back in the 50s, and it worked.....I'm sure there will be some parents that oppose the prevention. Why? Is beyond me....A generation or so from now that cancer could be non existent as the antibodies are passed thru to future generations. Again, IMO, a no brainer of a decision.........MP

[eliminatedsprinter]

Excuse me but, aren't most of you from California where you just enacted a law stating parents cannot spank their children? If you are so against more government why does a Republican state lead the country in liberal mandates against personal freedoms? Don't blame it on the liberals either. You have a Republican Governor. Y'all are on Ultra like stink on shit when in fact, we've lost more personal freedoms on your watch than all other Presidencies combined. Your credibility is absolutely null and void when entering this discussion if you support George Bush and the reichish Homeland Security Act. Personally I am against forced inoculations simply because one law leads to another. The same reason as I am opposed to seat belt and helmet laws. Atrition is just as important as life. As a matter of fact atrition is key in the debate of quality of life.
You gotta be kidding.:rolleyes:
A .that no spanking law didn't pass and B. we are a solidly democratric state. It is true that we often elect liberal (by Republician standards) Republician Governors, but we have a legislature that is just a little left of the last Polit Bureu, as is most of our Congressional deligation. We are not called the "Left Coast" or "The Peoples Republik of Kalifornia" for nothing you know....
P.S. A little more info on the HPV vaccination issue needs to be placed here. First of all, the reason it is recomended for girls 9-11 is because that is the youngest age, that it is known to be safe to widely administer it to. It is not effective and may, in fact, cause more problems, if a person takes it after they have already been exposed to one of the strains, it otherwise protects against. Even though HPV is classified as a STI, sex is not necessarily the absolute only way one may ever be exposed to it. It is recommended that a person be given the vaccine while as young as possible, in order to make sure they have as little chance as possible of having been previously exposed to any of the HPV viruses it is specific for. It is also not a total panacea. It does not protect aginst all forms of HPV that can cause cervical ca. It protects against the strains that most often cause it. Therefore, it is reccomended that even after being vaccinated, girls or women con't to get PAP smears. HPV viruses are also the cause of "genital warts" in men, as well as women, so men also benefit from as many people getting vaccinated as possible.

[Poster X]

Make the shot available and parents will rush to get it done. We don't need more bullshit government laws. Next thing you know they'll be fitting 9 year old boys with 10 year condoms and we'll all be wearing helmets in our convertibles and bouncing body suits on motorcycles. (If they aren't outlawed completely). The government needs to worry about the war they've got us into. The border problem they created. The out of this galaxy spending they do. And the division they've created in the masses. They can't even run a decent Veterans hospital. Make the vaccine available. Parents will show up. We don't need the government doing it for us.

[058]

Y'all are on Ultra like stink on shit when in fact, we've lost more personal freedoms on your watch than all other Presidencies combined. Your credibility is absolutely null and void when entering this discussion.Exactly what personal freedoms have we lost?

[Poster X]

You've never read the patriot act?
You aren't aware that anti Bush demonstrator's were arrested during his campaign?
You aren't aware of forced inoculations or freedom to buy lower priced drugs elsewhere?
You aren't aware most Republicans support selling the nations turnpikes and lotteries to private industry?
You aren't aware competitive oil pricing has been eliminated by making the mid east our only supplier?
You aren't aware that GW has taken professional lobbyists and given them judicial appointments over thier prior lobby?
If you're going to be a rightie you might should spend some time reading? ;)

[058]

You've never read the patriot act? No, never thought it would apply to me but if I were involved in terrorist activity I guess I should brush up on it.
You aren't aware that anti Bush demonstrator's were arrested during his campaign? Maybe they were doing something wrong to get arrested, like breaking the law? Guess I missed that part of the evening news
You aren't aware of forced inoculations or freedom to buy lower priced drugs elsewhere? Inoculations, you mean like the ones the Dems want little girls to get?:skull: Lower priced drugs? You mean to tell me that Kaiser Permanente is breaking the law? 'scuse me while I call the cops on Kaiser.
You aren't aware most Republicans support selling the nations turnpikes and lotteries to private industry?Yep...and so do alot of Dems, In fact in some states Dems are pushing it harder than the Repubs.:boxingguy
You aren't aware competitive oil pricing has been eliminated by making the mid east our only supplier? What happen to the little pipsqueak in South America? Did they move Venezuela when I wasn't looking?......Damn, I just looked at a map and GW just moved Alaska to somewhere south of Kuwait...How'd that happen?:eek: That damn Bush!!!
You aren't aware that GW has taken professional lobbyists and given them judicial appointments over thier prior lobby? Yep, Just like Clinton did when he was pres. and the administration before that and before that and.....you get the idea. They all do it. Lets not bring up Clinton's friends appointments too. Wanna talk about some of the Clinton's pardons too? Thats a nice dinnertime discussion topic too.:idea:
If you're going to be a rightie you might should spend some time reading? ;)
Yeah, I suppose I should but there would be no time left to earn a living, most of us righties work ya know.:D

[eliminatedsprinter]

You've never heard of the patriot act?
You aren't aware that anti Bush demonstrator's were arrested during his campaign?
You aren't aware of forced inoculations or freedom to buy lower priced drugs elsewhere?
You aren't aware most Republicans support selling the nations turnpikes and lotteries to private industry?
You aren't aware competitive oil pricing has been eliminated by making the mid east our only supplier?
You aren't aware that GW has taken professional lobbyists and given them judicial appointments over thier prior lobby?
If you're going to be a rightie you might should spend some time reading? ;)
Demonstrators arrested during his campaign. Assuming they were peaceful, it is still a something that goes back many decades. If you wan't to talk about unfairly arresting protestors, check out Woodrow Wilson's anti seditiion laws..
It is true that some Republicians agree with the libertarian Party in Re to privately run toll roads. Out here in Ca the Democrats like the idea too, just like they like all ideas that would make driving more expensive.
Are you talking in general about the loss of liberties over the last 100 years or so? If so, don't forget all the usless "gun control" laws that have been put on the books by the authoritarian left.
None of your above examples are Republician specific. Even the Patriot act is mild compared to what President Clinton tried to get enacted after the Oklahoma City bombing.

[Moneypitt]

Poster, it would seem that you are so biased/hateful that you are blinded. You look right at the forest, but the trees are blocking the view and you can't see it. It seems all of your posts are so slanted that the slant takes the thunder right out of what you are trying to say. I know I have a hard time trying to seperate the hate from the content. Every post has a Bush bash of some nature in it, even if the subject matter has nothing to do with Bush. I think we all agree that "government" has problems, but can't we address some of them without dragging a Bush bash into the text? Our system of government has been screwed up through, and by, many many administrations, with different parties in office. You can't honestly believe it is all the "other" party's fault. Please don't take this personal, it is not meant to be, and please try to address the discussions with a little less hate/bias, and a little more open mindedness. .....MP

[Poster X]

Poster, it would seem that you are so biased/hateful that you are blinded. You look right at the forest, but the trees are blocking the view and you can't see it. It seems all of your posts are so slanted that the slant takes the thunder right out of what you are trying to say. I know I have a hard time trying to seperate the hate from the content. Every post has a Bush bash of some nature in it, even if the subject matter has nothing to do with Bush. I think we all agree that "government" has problems, but can't we address some of them without dragging a Bush bash into the text? Our system of government has been screwed up through, and by, many many administrations, with different parties in office. You can't honestly believe it is all the "other" party's fault. Please don't take this personal, it is not meant to be, and please try to address the discussions with a little less hate/bias, and a little more open mindedness. .....MP
Hmm.. you know, you're not exactly without contempt for the left yourself? I bash specifically against Bush and Cheney. You bash the entire left. I'm not anti-republican but I am anti-neocon. Whoever answered my previous post about the loss of freedoms (might be you) is a perfect example of a neocon. The person didn't have a clue that Bush is the first President in history to appoint a lobbyist to legislative authority over his own lobby. Neocons rely quite a bit on sound bytes from Rush and the other pundits for the entirety of their political knowledge. Had they come to the Party from a knowledge base, that's one thing. However, the majority of neocons are reactionist's led by the nose and voting at best... with blind faith. There's no shortage of stupid people so I expect the neocon movement to grow exponentially until we are an authoritarian state with no hint of true democracy visible.

[Old Texan]

The person didn't have a clue that Bush is the first President in history to appoint a lobbyist to legislative authority over his own lobby.
Specifics? (Name of lobbyist and the lobby.)

[Moneypitt]

Gee, did I do that? Show me, so I can do it again. I don't recall bashing anyone, left or right. I have bashed people that don't support our troops, that I will admit to. Other than that you have me mixed up with someone else. Now, back to your hateful, Bush bashing, biased posts, why?............MP

[sangervdrive]

Make the shot available and parents will rush to get it done. We don't need more bullshit government laws. Next thing you know they'll be fitting 9 year old boys with 10 year condoms and we'll all be wearing helmets in our convertibles and bouncing body suits on motorcycles. (If they aren't outlawed completely). The government needs to worry about the war they've got us into. The border problem they created. The out of this galaxy spending they do. And the division they've created in the masses. They can't even run a decent Veterans hospital. Make the vaccine available. Parents will show up. We don't need the government doing it for us.
Thats a badass post.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Hmm.. you know, you're not exactly without contempt for the left yourself? I bash specifically against Bush and Cheney. You bash the entire left. I'm not anti-republican but I am anti-neocon. Whoever answered my previous post about the loss of freedoms (might be you) is a perfect example of a neocon. The person didn't have a clue that Bush is the first President in history to appoint a lobbyist to legislative authority over his own lobby. Neocons rely quite a bit on sound bytes from Rush and the other pundits for the entirety of their political knowledge. Had they come to the Party from a knowledge base, that's one thing. However, the majority of neocons are reactionist's led by the nose and voting at best... with blind faith. There's no shortage of stupid people so I expect the neocon movement to grow exponentially until we are an authoritarian state with no hint of true democracy visible.
I am no neocon (I am more of an Ayn Rand Objectivist). However, I will proudly declare that I am strongly ANTI LEFT. Communisim and Socialism are two of the most authoritarian political systems ever devised and I will not ever again (I used to be a bit of a leftist when I was younger, more emotional, and less informed) allow myself to support anyone who places some cummunitarian or "populist" ideology over the principles of individual liberty that this country was based on. I have supported President Bush on some things and I have bashed him a bit on some others, but mostly I just hold my nose and try to be thankful, that neither of the two Leftists he ran against is President.

[058]

Hmm.. you know, you're not exactly without contempt for the left yourself? I bash specifically against Bush and Cheney. You bash the entire left. I'm not anti-republican but I am anti-neocon. Whoever answered my previous post about the loss of freedoms (might be you) is a perfect example of a neocon. The person didn't have a clue that Bush is the first President in history to appoint a lobbyist to legislative authority over his own lobby. Neocons rely quite a bit on sound bytes from Rush and the other pundits for the entirety of their political knowledge. Had they come to the Party from a knowledge base, that's one thing. However, the majority of neocons are reactionist's led by the nose and voting at best... with blind faith. There's no shortage of stupid people so I expect the neocon movement to grow exponentially until we are an authoritarian state with no hint of true democracy visible.Poster, I'm somewhat of a bullshitter myself but sometimes I like to sit back and watch and admire true professional at work. Please carry on.:D

[Poster X]

Appointee number 1
http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2005/01/20/scherer-judges/
Apointee number 2 - 9
http://www.courtinginfluence.net/inv_findings.php?id=4
The Loss of Rights
http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/2608/1/225?TopicID=1
I notice you guys refer to the past quite a bit when your Georgie embarrasses you. You can learn from the past if you're not just using it to divert attention from your idiot savant. However, you best pay close attention to the now. It borders on imbecilic to not know these facts about your President. There is bastions of equally bastardized appointments, almost criminal amounts of underhanded business dealings and more more more. Here are your facts. They must have played on FOX while you were making a hooded white owl sandwich? Honest mistake.

[HighRoller]

Another pissed off Neo-lib takes a whack at GW. *Yawn* And if GW said the sky was blue you'd huff and indignantly say it was chartreuse. Please just admit it, Poster (child for abortion) X, you hate GW and anything he does will piss you off. We currently have a better economy than Clinton, 15% more social spending than Clinton and fewer illicit Oval Office subordinate blowjobs than the Clinton era.
I bet you weren't performing lyrical gymnastics when BJ Bill invaded Kosovo "illegally" and caused "a loss of American lives". What about the "Blackhawk Down" incident? 13 lives in one day??? Certainly BJ Bill's war on Somalia needed to be stopped. After all, 13 lives in one day means a Civil War is impending.
PosterX, can you provide proof that you vehemently opposed Bill Clinton's occupation of Somalia and Kosovo? If not you're just another GW hating hypocrite. (Which we already know you are....) F**king Neolibs should be deported to Cuba so they can live out their Socialist jerkoff fantasies...

[Old Texan]

Old news again there Peabody. Since the reporting sources are far left environmental extremist friendly sites their hornblowing warnings are going to be anti business / anti Bush no matter what. Basically a continuation of debate between philosophies. :sleeping:
I know, I know we need socialist leaning liberal bench sitters to save the planet.......friends of "corporate" will destroy us all.:jawdrop:
Highroller has pretty much covered my remaining thoughts.:devil:

[Poster X]

There's not much I can do for stupid. Comparing a blowjob to actual professional lobbyists being put in charge of their precise lobby. Comparing the crew of a helicopter to all the deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq. And then believing in a false economy that is unraveling as we speak like it was your old pal Lassie. There's no doubt you believe whatever it is, whoever it is, is teaching you to believe. I have no comeback for absolute moronity. <new word.. thanks.
Why don't you take your American Flag and hunting gun and show us how it's done? Shoot some terrorists. (I understand anyone who doesn't want to be occupied is a terrorist so you shouldn't have trouble finding some). Also shoot some Mexicans. That should solve a few of your problems. While you're reloading you can pick out a few homeless people and welfare mooches and blow their fuc king heads off. As a matter of fact. Shoot me. For I am your true enemy.
There are not nearly enough intelligent people to deal with idiots like you. There are bastions of you. Millions of you. Stupidity is rampant and may well be our largest export? The Bible was mistyped. The idiots shall inherit the Earth. (For a few days before they blow it up.) Enjoy being a complete irresponsible doofus and breed. (I'm sure you have already). Idiots need more company. Would you like your kid buried in pieces like he was hacked by Freddy Kruger or just left in the dirt in Iraq? Keep sending em in and have a nice day dipshit. :)
And before you cry like a little bitch to the moderator that I resort to name calling:
A) I'm not name calling. I'm name designating.
B) All you little punks do is lace your posts with name calling.
C) All the truth in the world is just wasted on a complete idiots such as yourselves.
Toodles.

[Old Texan]

Tis' you the bagboy that constantly whines of namecalling and division of the country. Nobody really gets upset when you name call as you pretty much aren't taken seriously anyway. Your ideals of socialistic society show your colors beneath your vailed brown paper mask.
"I'm voting for Hillary just to piss you off Ol' T..." I remember that declaration, pure intelligence. Make your little vote count.:rolleyes:
Obviously you can't handle anyone disagreeing with your warped views and lefty socialist desires. Look how your blood pressure shot up and threw into your latest rant.:eek:
Highroller's points against your would be president's "wife" really got you going. Your arrogance always gets in the way of understanding someone's points against your rants. You hate W and he was acknowledging W's predecessor on his "tail wagging the dog" response to terror.
The "hollow brag" about how you're on HB defending the "rights of the downtrodden" always puts a smirk on our faces. I somehow cannot picture someone as arrogant and above the mortal crowd you preach down to, ever going out and actually helping the "real" poor and needy. I'd wager your real idea of charity would be when you pitch your pocket change into a salvation Army kettle at Xmas or maybe toss out a tattered windbreaker in the path of a bag lady (conscience probably makes you think of her as an old aunt widowed during the war).:devil:
Why not get back on point and tell us how to solve the immigration / migration problem facing this country. Surely you have some semblance of a plan besides upping welfare and free health care. Wellllll......
Hey maybe when you're chatting with one of the family spirits you can ask them how Teddy and the Roughriders would handle the current problems. :)

[AzMandella]

Appointee number 1
http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2005/01/20/scherer-judges/
Apointee number 2 - 9
http://www.courtinginfluence.net/inv_findings.php?id=4
The Loss of Rights
http://www.ombwatch.org/article/articleview/2608/1/225?TopicID=1
I notice you guys refer to the past quite a bit when your Georgie embarrasses you. You can learn from the past if you're not just using it to divert attention from your idiot savant. However, you best pay close attention to the now. It borders on imbecilic to not know these facts about your President. There is bastions of equally bastardized appointments, almost criminal amounts of underhanded business dealings and more more more. Here are your facts. They must have played on FOX while you were making a hooded white owl sandwich? Honest mistake.
And you don't think the Lefties appoint people to respective benches that back up their veiws of how thing should be or be done?

[eliminatedsprinter]

And you don't think the Lefties appoint people to respective benches that back up their veiws of how thing should be or be done?
Nope, he thinks all left wingers are saints and all industrialists and their right wing lackeys are villians. That is why he feels Utopian Socialism can work. After all, it is the basic premise that ideology is based upon.;)

[Poster X]

This is why you (at least on this thread) are Neocons and not Republicans. You don't really have a clue what this administration has done outside a few headlines you've read. Your opinions and arguments are the identical words of television pundits that tell you what to believe. You think being a Republican will make people thing you're smart and patriotic. But.. now the party is full of more dumbasses just like yourselves. A true (informed) Republican detests this administration and what it's done to their party. Now.. back to your regularly scheduled circle jerk. ;)

[Old Texan]

This is why you (at least on this thread) are Neocons and not Republicans. You don't really have a clue what this administration has done outside a few headlines you've read. Your opinions and arguments are the identical words of television pundits that tell you what to believe. You think being a Republican will make people thing you're smart and patriotic. But.. now the party is full of more dumbasses just like yourselves. A true (informed) Republican detests this administration and what it's done to their party. Now.. back to your regularly scheduled circle jerk. ;)
So, let's get this straight, since Richard Nixon is your professed "hero" and thus the only "true" Republican in "modern" history, you the all knowing, all comphrensive one, know what a "true Republican" is, and down deep, you are a Republican. Is that the old "from the heart faith" you've been forced to suppress?:(
C'mon, tell me the truth, what color is the sky in your world?:confused:
Damn that Reagan, he just let you down din't he? Can't get past it? :devil:

[Poster X]

Actually Bob Dole was the last great Republican. Y'all were just too stupid to see it. What a shock. ;)

[eliminatedsprinter]

Perhaps he is, but I voted for Dole and no doubt so did most of the people you are calling stupid, so what is your point?? I don't see any great anythings running for major office today. Why are you setting such a poor example for the left lately? I used to like to debate you. But lately all you seem to want to do is hurl out inslults.
Example: Why didn't you mention his war record, or his ability to work with those across the isle, to back up your statement, instead of just calling people stupid??

[Old Texan]

Perhaps he is, but I voted for Dole and no doubt so did most of the people you are calling stupid, so what is your point?? I don't see any great anythings running for major office today. Why are you setting such a poor example for the left lately? I used to like to debate you. But lately all you seem to want to do is hurl out inslults.
Example: Why didn't you mention his war record, or his ability to work with those across the isle, to back up your statement, instead of just calling people stupid??
Esprinter you are now seeing "the cat out of the bag" which is PX's typical attitude. Claiming everyone calls him names yet he is the first and foremost at hurling insults.
I voted for Dole and thought him to have the right stuff for President. Unfortunately he was not quite as chrismatic and eloquent as Slick Willie's personna. If Robert Dole had been been elected I believe a lot of the countries problems of today wouldn't be, such as the sad state of Veteran Affairs and the VA Hospitals.
You are right on about the weak roster of candidates for President. We need a strong willed leader to face the world and unite the division at home.There isn't anyone showing that kind of character on either side of the aisle.

[eliminatedsprinter]

Esprinter you are now seeing "the cat out of the bag If Robert Dole had been been elected I believe a lot of the countries problems of today wouldn't be, such as the sad state of Veteran Affairs and the VA Hospitals.
Of this there can be no doubt. The Clinton Administration gave VP Gore the task of "Reinventing the V.A." The distruction reaped upon the VA during those years was incredible. In fact, as bad as it is now, it is actually better than it was at the time they left office. The problems our VA hospitals and ambulatory care centers are now enduring are 99.9999999% the result of their "reinventing" the VA into a big underfunded HMO. These problems are the result of their chickens coming home to roost. But fear not Democrats. President Bush will be blamed, even though he has givin the VA record buget increases and weeded out some of the hatchet men, as it is part of the nature of politics that leaders tend to get the blame for the results of the bad decissions made by those who came before them.

[Moneypitt]

Of this there can be no doubt. The Clinton Administration gave VP Gore the task of "Reinventing the V.A." The distruction reaped upon the VA during those years was incredible. In fact, as bad as it is now, it is actually better than it was at the time they left office. The problems our VA hospitals and ambulatory care centers are now enduring are 99.9999999% the result of their "reinventing" the VA into a big underfunded HMO. These problems are the result of their chickens coming home to roost. But fear not Democrats. President Bush will be blamed, even though he has givin the VA record buget increases and weeded out some of the hatchet men, as it is part of the nature of politics that leaders tend to get the blame for the results of the bad decissions made by those who came before them.
The VA's problems can be directly related to the employees working there. I was at Sawtelle not long ago and was astonished at the number of lazy do nothings working there. It is a wonder anyone survives that place.....I'm not refering to the actual medical staff, but more of the support workers that don't.........MP

[eliminatedsprinter]

The VA's problems can be directly related to the employees working there. I was at Sawtelle not long ago and was astonished at the number of lazy do nothings working there. It is a wonder anyone survives that place.....I'm not refering to the actual medical staff, but more of the support workers that don't.........MP
West LA (formerly Sawtelle and Waddsworth VAs) no doubt has problems with it's support staff. It is a unique environment. Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but in the last customer (patient) satisfaction surveys, before all of the LA area VAs were merged into "The Greater Los Angeles System of Clinics" (GLA), WLA recieved the lowest rating in it's area (VISN 22) and the second lowest in the nation for VAs. Sepulveda is the only campus in VISN 22 that has recieved consistantly high (pre 1994) or decent (post 1994) ratings over the years. I have had problems myself with rude clerks at WLA that are unlike any I have ever encounterd at any other VA. I know some great MDs and Therapists over there, but I have also seen some very strange behavior from staff at WLA, while attending meetings etc, the likes of which I have never seen at any other VA. In short, do not use them as a model for evaluating what is wrong with the VA, they are very atypical.
In the past (prior to 1994) you would have had the option of going to Sepulveda (a very popular choice) for most of the services you now have to go to WLA to get.
Believe me, I could go on and on and on about the negitive changes the last administration forced upon the VA. Some of those changes have cost lives. A few years ago Harvard did a study of the nation's cardiac care and found that the post MI life expectancy of VA patients was approx 25% lower than the national avg for private and community hospitals. The only factors the study could find that may have caused or been involved in that, were that they found, on average, VA cardiac patients had to travel twice as far and wait over twice as long to get treatment from the VA as those in private or community hospitals. Al Gore's "reinvention" is directly responsible for that. In 1993 over 70% of all VAs were full service medical centers. In 2000 over 90% of all VAs were outpaitiant ambulatory care centers. That shift (that was initially called "Al Gore's 7 year plan for reinventing the VA") represented an enormous reduction in services for our nation's veterans since 1993...No health care system could possibly endure such cuts without seeing a significant drop in the level of care they provide.

[Poster X]

Ironic how everyone that's been extolling the virtues of Dubya the last few years suddenly voted for Dole. I won't waste my time with a search, but I'm sure most of you were stupid enough to brag at some point of how proud you were of your patriotic vote for Dubya (dipshit) Bush. What was it you called it? Oh yeah.. the lesser of two evils. :D

[eliminatedsprinter]

Ironic how everyone that's been extolling the virtues of Dubya the last few years suddenly voted for Dole. I won't waste my time with a search, but I'm sure most of you were stupid enough to brag at some point of how proud you were of your patriotic vote for Dubya (dipshit) Bush. What was it you called it? Oh yeah.. the lesser of two evils. :D
What do you mean suddenly voted for Dole??? That was back in 96 why would we be talking about him now, if not for the fact that you brought him up.
It's far from a brag, however, in the last 2 elections he has been exactly that. The lesser of 2 evils. I said it at the time and I stand by it now. Sen John Kerry was a terrible alterrnative to President Bush and VP Gore is, in my eyes, the worst candidate to get a major party nomination in my lifetime.

[Poster X]

So Dole is old news but Clinton bashing is relevant in lieu of the realities of the current administration? Hmm.. makes sense in a unibrow, embarrassed of loyalties, anything but dealing with reality kinda way. Again, you only prove the danger and unsinkable blind faith of the modern neocon.

[eliminatedsprinter]

So Dole is old news but Clinton bashing is relevant in lieu of the realities of the current administration? Hmm.. makes sense in a unibrow, embarrassed of loyalties, anything but dealing with reality kinda way. Again, you only prove the danger and unsinkable blind faith of the modern neocon.
Who and what are you referring to??? And why do keep with the non stop cheezy insults? I was takling specifically about the changes that were made to the VA by the last administration, that have directly led to where the VA is now. It is more than relevant it is causational. There have been 3 major shifts in the VA's history and Al Gore's "reinventing" was the last one and it will take decades to correct, as it involved a total shift to the HMO model of care and the distruction and construction of more than dozens of major facilities. I realize it is something you know nothing about, so cut with the phony Clinton bashing claims and the cheezy unibrow comments. If you are going to be one of the few leftists on this board why don't you grow up and try to be a class example of your ideology, rather than proof of the left's lack of class. I have never once called you anything other than what you openly claim to be. You say you are an advocate of Utopian Socialism. That puts you squarly in the heart of the political left. It is not an insult. If you call me an anti leftist or even a right winger (which by definition is any non communist or non socialist) that would not be an insult to me. But rather a very broad statement of where I stand. But unibrow etc??? I've never referred to you in such a insolent fashion.
What have you ever done to help with the above issues?? I have spent over 24 hears helping our nation's vetran's and I currently run one of the most popular veterans programs in our area. In the process of keeping the above program going, over the years, I have personally met repetedly with 4 members of congress and countless congressional aids etc. I have also personally met 3 Secretaries of Veterans Affairs. If I approached those people with the same lack of respect and sophistication you display here, I would be working in a different field, and the Vets I serve would have lost their program and, at best, I would have learned a painful lesson at the expense of myself and many others well being.
P.S. Perhaps if you tried to present your views here in a consistantly dignified mannor you might get some respect around here and you could even lose that rediculous bag, and put your profession, and the community you post from in your profile/avitar like a credible person would......
I'm sorry if this post seems harsh, but I will not allow myself to get into a personal insult battle with you or anyone else on this forum.
I come on ***boat for my pleasure to post with my friends and to make new friends to enjoy boating hobby with. I come on this political retoric section for a friendly exchange of political ideas. Not to be called stupid or unibrow etc. Come on Poster, here is your challenge. I've made 2 post here re the VA. Punch a hole in one of my points, correct my history, tell me how the Bush adminstration could have come up with the tens of billions of dollars it would have cost for him to restore the services the Clinton administration took away??Tell me how he could have replaced all the facililities and equipment, that took 8 years to discard, in just 6 years. Even if there was the money, where is the will in congress?? The last two members of Congress who were really stuanch, consistant, fighters for our nations Vets were Sen Alan Cranston, and Rep Sonny Mongomery and they are long gone. Even vets like Murtha, Kerry, and McCain etc don't fight in the house for Veterans, they just give big time lip service to the press on the subject or step in and give some specific help, when some VA related problem in their districts is noted by the press and used to embarrass them.